SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My WH had a work affair but they communicated a lot (from memory) whilst he was at home whilst I was cooking, whilst I was helping the kids with music practice and homework and whilst DD was reading to us. It was via WhatsApp which WH deleted and by the time I clocked on recovery programs he changed his phone.

What I wanted to mention is perhaps a bit controversial: I don’t know how much more I could have taken in the form of seeing things written black on white. I caught him by intercepting a text from OW to WH saying “I love you too”, that text is burnt on my brain and I doubt it will ever wipe off. An email from WH to OW also got included into the HR investigation (long story) and I felt sick seeing it printed in the file, again I also have it burnt on my brain.

Most of the things came out anyway as OW was a bunny boiler and posted a lot on FB besides giving me a detailed picture of it. Before me talking to her WH owned up to a lot too as he had to so I knew what she’ll say and when she started publicly posting the details I already knew them, it still hurt like hell to see them black on white.

I know, and I’m sure you probably do much better than me, what those texts could have looked like. I for one didn’t need to see all I already knew in writing. I think the trauma is huge hearing it and creating the picture of it all, seeing it just creates additional triggers.

I don’t know how your brain works. I just knew I was dealing with liars and people who deceived themselves as well as me therefore I wanted the factual information mainly (when, where, how, etc) and then every grey area that can leave room for interpretation I preferred to draw my own conclusion. For example I know that my WH wouldn’t have sat for hours talking badly about me but I also know he fed her enough ambiguous shit to lead her to believe we were miserable together, he was the perfect father and I was the dragon. I also know that certain things he didn’t actually say which she claimed he did.

Anyway my point: if you feel you’re getting the truth from him perhaps seeing the texts is not so vital. However only you can establish what makes you feel safe enough.

And I apologize if I missed this somewhere in your thread, but has he indicated/shared with you how he feels/felt towards her? If so, do you believe he what he said?

He did (does?) have feelings for her.

It's not like it was in my affair, I was addicted, very much in limerence. I don't get that sense from him. I don't get the sense there is withdrawal, but he could be hiding it. However, I didn't know my AP as well as he knew his - and it allowed me to project a lot that wasn't there. It might have been harder to have some fantasy world in the same way? I am a bad judge of this that's why I haven't said much about it, I don't quite understand it all yet. And I am not sure I trust what he is telling me about it?

I think it's like I said earlier, they formed a bond because she knew about the affair and he had someone to talk to. It became her telling him all about how bad she had it. So, some of it was KISA, some of it was flattery/ego in the wake of my affair, some of it was just having a confidant and a bond with someone who he could speak freely to.

They did say I love you. If we were away he would tell her he missed her. He feels badly he hurt her. At the same time I get this sense that she was truly a side chick. He cared about her but wasn't madly in love with her. It doesn't seem like he was having an exit affair either. It's going to take a while before I trust my assessment on this, after all I thought we had fallen back into love. Guess not!

He claims that as COVID hit and we were spending a lot of time together that there wasn't "room" for her anymore? He said he felt more "all in" on our marriage and that he was being genuine. He just didn't seem to know what to do about her. My evaluation is the KISA was still in place, but the crutch aspect not as much. And, he was realizing more and more that extraction from her was going to result in me finding out so he was stringing it out a bit kind of hoping she would lose interest. He had the same delusion that he might not ever have to tell if he did things right.

We have known her several years some of my minimizing her that might be coming out in this is I never held a high opinion of her. She did what we needed her to do, but she was always more interested in getting involved with the tenants, she enjoys knowing what the tenants drama is. She is loud, overbearing, very talkative, thinks she is funnier than she is and doesn't have a filter. So, it's difficult for me to see the depth between them, so I am not sure I have a good sense for that. Knowing her, and feeling that way towards her makes it harder for me to believe he was head over heals.

I know that's a really drawn out answer, but I don't know if I know the truth on this or if this is a blindspot.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:08 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

I was in limerence for a long, long time, even after confessing. Too long. I didn't want the feelings I had and didn't know how to make them stop. I know now it wasn't the person I was pining for, it was the emotions/dopamime. I'm still very much a work in progress and will be for a long time. But I know I'm on the right path now and I feel I owe it to this site... both to the BS and WS

Yes, that was my exact experience. I wanted it to stop, I didn't want to feel the way I did. It was absolutely torture. I don't see it on him. Could be wrong.

Thanks for coming out of lurkdom, it's always amazing to know how many people are out there lurking.

Luna,

I know what you are saying. I started out thinking that would be my route too. For some reason being forced to hurry and get more of the disclosure to avoid OBS delivering more things that I wanted to hear from H send me in a downward spiral of trying to verify and find out more.

Overall you are right, certain things you don't come back from. I used an app too but deleted everything regularly. H never tried to recover it, and yes, I think it spared him quite a lot.

I still feel my biggest concern is what happens moving forward rather than anything else.

Hiking,

You are one of my favorite posters. I am not sure if I have said that to you before, but your posts have been so much guidance to me, and always so sage.

Too kind for sure, and if you knew how much sharing your journey on SI helped my wife on her road back -- we'll have to call the guidance thing a draw.

Ultimately, I feel extremely limited by so few useful thoughts to offer to your current tragedy. At best before, there was some compare and contrast, but now I have no experience with a BS burning things back down to the ground.

But I do still get the pain of betrayal.

The pain in all of this really comes from getting to one place and then finding out you were there alone. Being told for such a long period of time one thing, and finding out another.

Boom.

In two sentences I think you captured the essence of my first two years of recovery. This is what I mourned. To discover I had been alone, after being certain we were on a journey together.

To which I can only respond again, that I'm sorry you have been introduced to first hand knowledge of this unique pain.

Not knowing if you will ever be able to trust it enough to believe you are in that place again.

And this, should you choose to pursue it, is that R thing again.

You seem to understand the next bits of protecting yourself and hoping the husband wakes up enough to help you decide if he wants to help with another rebuild.

The trust only gets kicked off in the right direction when he cuts pushes through the bullshit rationalizations he generated to fuel his choices -- as you well understand.

Not sure that makes any sense, but maybe it's more like you said - I am in shock?

If you're not in shock, you should become a professional poker player. Online now you're showing a calm I couldn't find until 2-years after discovery.

But it could be because you already know what you want. You know what you want your life to look like.

And that's a good thing.

Whether or not you can get there from here, no one knows at this point, but you have an idea of what you want. That's something to aim for. You also know you'll be okay regardless of the outcome, and that's another good thing among the carnage.

All I can do from here is hope you get clear of the pain as fast as possible, find a way forward and eventually, someday, get some peace again.

If your husband is feeling lost, he should hit up the early Stoics. Virtue and choosing to be the best version of oneself is how the entire philosophy was born. I always saw it as the Western Civilization version of the Taoism/Daoism. So, if the Stoics fail him, a little Lao Tzu goes a long way too.

If you're not in shock, you should become a professional poker player. Online now you're showing a calm I couldn't find until 2-years after discovery.

It's funny, I feel the most calm while I am writing. It helps me unjumble. I am also more calm when I am not with him or in the same home as him. Last night I really had an urge to scratch his eyeballs out.

But it could be because you already know what you want. You know what you want your life to look like.

I thought I did. I don't know, it's hard to claim that now because everything is up in the air. I don't think it's that. If we stay married, yes, I know what I want that to look like. I thought we had it though, so how will I really know we have it next time? I know, time, consistency. It doesn't seem possible. I can't trust myself to know.

Thank you, I still find what you said to be reassuring oddly enough. I have made plans to go out this evening with my friends. I do not plan on talking about this, but I do look forward to the distraction.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:39 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

I am also more calm when I am not with him or in the same home as him. Last night I really had an urge to scratch his eyeballs out.

Imagine doing it for four more years. Just sayin'

Although it’s not the same, it’s similar. My WH and I had “the talk” about 3-4 months into his affair and I offered him a divorce or separation and he said no. I gave my everything to fix our marriage and thought we had fixed whatever we were going though and was so damn proud! When dday hit 9-10 months later, I was completely devastated.

I couldn’t make sense of it. We were so happy. If he had told me when we had that conversation, yes I could see it. But, then, no, we were so good! He says a lot of what your WH says. It started out great, I love yous, miss yous, etc. Eventually it faded and he couldn’t get out of it. There were supposed threats to reveal. She had my email address somehow because she emailed me right after dday. She was definitely a bunny boiler.

I don’t know what is true or not. It rings true, but so many WHs say the same thing that it’s a bit hard to believe sometimes. Maybe a little affair rewriting?

I have faith that no matter what happens, you will come out of this stronger with your head held high.

Hit send too soon

[This message edited by Carissima at 8:17 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

I don’t know if you get it but his affair why’s are deeper than yours. His affair was committed knowing the consequences of it 100%. And that for me it’s a new level of selfishness and deceit.

Don't agree with this at all and to be honest if it were any other WS posting about their spouses BS's RA the responses would be vastly different in tone.

Don't get me wrong I think the affair is as wrong as any other but remember we really only see one side of things here and that's HO's and she's rightfully a favourite as one of the wisest Waywards here but that doesn't mean her BH shared or shares the same viewpoint on their relationship.

Of course he should have discussed any problems before embarking on the affair but you could say these same of anyone before they embarked on an affair.

So no I don't think his whys must be deeper, in fact they could be a lot simpler, hurt and revenge comes to mind.

HO, I hope you don't read this and think I'm in support of his actions, I'm definitely not. I just think a lot of people are not looking at this with impartiality as they would with any new BS, simply because of who you are.

I don’t think that at all. I appreciate anything where people are trying to keep it real with me.

I tend to agree, if this is what it looks like I don’t think it’s deeper or even worse or better. it is it’s own thing independently. There is very little he has said or done here that is original either.

However, I will say what Luna expresses there has been expressed in this site many times in many threads. I have been asked many times early on if I had ever been cheated on, because then you cant claim to know what it does. I thought that many times about reoffending ws, and I have seen many bs say they could never do it because they know how badly it hurt them. So I don’t feel that comment was for my benefit or because it’s my post, I have seen it fairly commonly said.

I already did respond already similarly though, at least I think. These things are running together. I think when I do it seems like I am defending him, but I am not.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:54 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Hiking out-

It does not seem to me that you are defending him. It seems to me that you are just seeing things with an open mind and knowing him in a 3 dimensional way helps you look at all the moving pieces in a way we can’t.

I always liked you before- but the way you’re looking at this makes me respect you even more.

I’d suggest staying away from the thought that somehow a RA is more seedy and evil for a WS who has been a BS. It’s much more complicated than that.

The worst type of infidelity is the one you're trying to survive. Just sayin'

ETA: I'm referring to any BS, not hikingout in particular.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 10:16 PM, October 22nd (Thursday)]

Don't agree with this at all and to be honest if it were any other WS posting about their spouses BS's RA the responses would be vastly different in tone.

My opinion isn't because it's HO. It's because I was sick to my stomach for 5 months, to the point where I'd have done anything to make it stop. It's because I had PTSD and a deeper depression than I understood could be possible until it happened to me. It's because of every panic attack and the existential crisis I experienced. So no, I DO NOT understand how someone who had experienced all that would wish it on another human being, let alone the person they've committed to love and cherish. This is NOT something I fully understood before it happened to me, and I don't blame WS's for not being able to fully wrap their mind around it. That is, not unless they've experienced it for themselves, and in that case, my honest opinion is that they're the worst kind of asshole.

I don’t think I said at any point that his affair is worse. An affair has pretty much the same effect on the BS - it traumatisés them at various degrees.

What I said, and I remain firm in my belief, is this: we all know affairs are morally wrong (I won’t bring cultural variations to this into conversation). If we have never experienced Infidelity, most of us, the society, believe in the “falling into an affair” concept. Didn’t meant to happen but... We (society) approach affair stories with the belief of “its morally wrong but...” (insert “he/she was unhappy” or any other crap the society uses to justify traumatising and shitty behaviour). My own friend on my dday exclaimed “why did he have to get emotionally involved too, I get he wanted a new sexual experience but he’s too stupid to have fallen in love” like it’s somehow understandable and justifiable if you “just” wanted a variation to your sexual partner.

In this context I can understand how a person who never had an affair and has the base vulnerability to one, “falls” into an affair. I repeat: I understand however I don’t condone it and the WS needs to do a lot of work to figure out why they did it, past the temptation motive. Why the risk of losing their family didn’t sober them, why harming their children meant nothing, why their vows and promises didn’t matter, how could they deceive so well, how could they lie so easily etc.

My WH (and this seems to be the case for most first time offenders) knew nothing about cognitive dissonance, justification, re-writing history and all the crap that his brain put together in order to still sleep well at night next to the person he vowed to cherish and protect and yet he was actively stabbing every moment of the day. He truly believe the shit he was telling himself. He knew nothing about As inflicting trauma and potentially PTSD (which he actually took extra steps to ensure I have plenty of it). He had no clue his wife will end up with panic attacks and anxiety, which she never experienced before and she’ll experience suicidal thoughts just because she wanted the pain to stop. He never challenged his thinking during the A because, well, why would he? Everything was going smoothly.

A person who experienced infidelity in their lives, more so a BS who spends years in the WTF stage having to deal with understanding why the kids didn’t matter, why you didn’t matter at least from the perspective of being told the truth rather than be turned into a baddy so they can profess romantic love to someone else, a BS who experiences triggers, ptsd, low self esteem, a BS who builds themselves up again and works on themselves, becomes familiar to all the affair dynamics including all the justification and cognitive dissonance. And the most important fact: that nothing excuses an affair, that nothing you have ever done warrants being treated as disposable, as an afterthought, by the person you trusted with your deepest thoughts and feelings. Nothing.

To then willingly inflict the same pain on another person, and I will mainly refer here to the OBS (as we’ve established he may have not cared HO would hurt although... then why remaining married?) is a whole new level of fucked up.

For me, and I’m only a reader in the virtual world, ultimately it boils down to the work HO’s H did on understanding HO’s A, understanding himself and healing. It’s pretty clear that it wasn’t much. It’s pretty clear to me that he has no issues with “an eye for an eye” concept. It’s pretty clear that he didn’t process the massive disrespect and offence that has been committed against himself when HO had her affair, he didn’t sit in it to feel it, to learn to deal with those feelings in healthy ways rather than decide it’s not a big deal to fuck another man’s wife and inflict that pain on another man because “he’s not treating her well anyway, she told me so”. Right. (And yes, he had no duty towards the OBS as he wasn’t the one who took a vow to him. Blah blah blah. He had a moral duty to not participate in the offence. Full stop).

[This message edited by Luna10 at 4:49 AM, October 23rd (Friday)]

Luna -

It’s the “whole new level of fucked up” part that makes it seem like you’re saying it’s worse.

I will say in my mad hatter moments I wanted someone who had just as much to lose do that they would be just as discreet as me and careful. I didn’t want to risk some single guy trying to blow my world up over some limerance. I thought to myself I want it o be someone confident who wouldn’t begin catching feelings. I chose someone who lived out of state. And sadly I wanted him to be an alpha male with a SO so he wouldn’t get attached.

But I have/had not been able to put aside the gf and new baby. And even though I knew my intentions to NOT want him permanently- I tried to imagine what I would say to her when she finally called me..........😒

But the draw to have my husband know EXACTLY what I am trying to overcome is a strong pull. Infidelity is a beast.

Luna -

It’s the “whole new level of fucked up” part that makes it seem like you’re saying it’s worse.

I think you’re still missing my point: as someone above said, the worst affair is the one you experience yourself. Affairs are traumatising and unfortunately we only realise this when we experienced them directly.

I have not said at any point that one affair is worse than another one (although I’m sure we could try and classify them based on duration, the level of TT, deceit etc).

What I have said is that the whys (new level of fucked up) are deeper than some of a WS who never experienced infidelity before. There’s a new level of selfishness. There’s a new level of shit to deal with. The entitlement...

ChamomileTea’s response is a shorter version of what I tried to say (thanks CT).

[This message edited by Luna10 at 8:26 AM, October 23rd (Friday)]

The pain in all of this really comes from getting to one place and then finding out you were there alone. Being told for such a long period of time one thing, and finding out another.

Boom.

In two sentences I think you captured the essence of my first two years of recovery. This is what I mourned. To discover I had been alone, after being certain we were on a journey together.

To which I can only respond again, that I'm sorry you have been introduced to first hand knowledge of this unique pain.

I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this and I have so many things I want to say to you and I’m just not equipped to do these thoughts justice in writing. But this is the thing that I keep thinking about. Beyond the AP, beyond the sex. One of the most difficult things my BH had to reconcile is who he thought we were together and what his life was versus my A. My affair put the lie to his vision of our life and our relationship. He questioned everything, our whole history. He thought he knew me and how I felt about him and us and our life and then I cheated on him. Coming to terms with that and figuring out what’s what was a long and painful journey.

This is the pit in my stomach and the ache I feel for you. The bewilderment. Of course there’s the whole trashy AP and the sex in your D’s room. And as weird as it is to say, that’s not even the focal point. You thought you were somewhere in life. You were together and you had grown and had this life and vision for the future together and just like our BH’s, you’ve had that rug pulled out from under you.

Your whole demeanor in this thread is calm, which to me screams shock and disassociation. An 18 month A during this time...I can’t even. I’d be pulling my hair out and crying in the shower all day.

I know you’re taking care of yourself and I know you know the steps. I get the self-blame and also the correct advice to separate your A and his. You know all the mechanics. Time. That’s the key now. Time to get to all the info you need. Time to assess. Time to figure out who he his. Time to figure out who you are now and whether there is even the possibility of a future together should you want it. Breathe. There is no deadline. You are strong. And all the work you did on yourself is Everest and you climbed that bitch and put a flag at the top. Hold onto that. That is you and no matter what he did you own your accomplishments. And I think all that work will help you through this whatever happens.

Great post, Mrs. W.

Now you have me crying. I am not surprised, for whatever reason when I saw that you had posted it I knew it was going to touch deep for me because there is a sisterhood here for me. Your posts when you came here literally taught me how to talk about my affair. It put some focus on many things that were fuzzy. And, you have untangled so many things for me in the time I have been here. In many ways you have been my mentor here, probably without realizing it, and I just wanted to express how glad I am to "see" you and how much your words mean to me.

This is the pit in my stomach and the ache I feel for you. The bewilderment. Of course there’s the whole trashy AP and the sex in your D’s room. And as weird as it is to say, that’s not even the focal point. You thought you were somewhere in life. You were together and you had grown and had this life and vision for the future together and just like our BH’s, you’ve had that rug pulled out from under you.

And, I get that most people who get cheated on think there life and their marriage is one thing and find out it's another. I don't think my experience is worse in that way. But, it IS different. I think you are going to relate to what I am about to say. My marriage has been my number one priority way more than any other time in our decades together. I have read so many relationship books, and woke up each day doing by best to make reparations, to be there for him, working on myself, etc. I am not patting myself on the back, those were natural consequences of my own actions. And, in many ways I built myself back up on doing the next right thing and seeing the progress and the difference. But to be THAT focused on him, on us, on being a better spouse and still feel like that failed? It's exhausting. And, being that focused on him, how did I not see it? I thought we had climbed that Everest TOGETHER.

Your whole demeanor in this thread is calm, which to me screams shock and disassociation. An 18 month A during this time...I can’t even. I’d be pulling my hair out and crying in the shower all day.

I think that shock and disassociation COULD be why I sound calm. But, I have always been self protective, and so it's always more comfortable for me to focus on the logical. I just now know enough that it's harder to pretend this isn't real. My coping is avoidance, burying myself in busy. Always has been. I have definitely been in avoidance mode until the last couple of days.

I am trying to change course with that because I recognize this is how I became a WS, and I don't want this to be my default. I have a strong tendency to shut down and become super self protective, and I will work and be productive until I exhaust myself. It soon becomes impossible to be vulnerable with anyone, I went to dinner with friends last night and had margaritas and laughed and they had no idea anything was going on. It magnifies for me that my work didn't really change my coping, it made me aware of it. So, now I have to keep trying to change course and make myself do it differently. It's like, hey hiking, you have studied well, here is your big freaking test!

But, overall, I am shocked he did this. As I was saying but got sidetracked the focus was so much on our relationship that I am exhausted. I don't want to deal with it. I feel like I am taking steps that I know I "should" based on what I have read here. But in other ways I also feel outside of my body going through the motions.

I don't have another mountain in me right now. I just don't. And, I don't even feel like pressuring myself to start the climb. And, maybe that's really best. It's his turn.

One of the things that is weird, is that I still operate like a WS. I have decided that's still best as well. I said I went out with friends last night. I still did all the protocol of checking in. I didn't create a fake facebook account because I wouldn't do that without telling him and I didn't want to go through that exercise. It's grating, but in the case we do make it to the other side of this, I am still going to keep laying the tracks for trust on my side even if I resent it a bit now.