SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

FD, your posts in this thread are disconcerting because they read like someone who hasn’t really felt the consequences of their actions and maybe even feels smug about getting away with something.

It’s like you crashed a car while you were drunk and think it’s all OK because no one got killed, you didn’t go to jail, and you’re in rehab. So what if the car is totaled? You can just buy a new one! And yeah, it sucks that your wife walks with a limp now, but that will probably go away eventually and it doesn’t seem to bother her too much anyway.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:53 AM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

It’s like you crashed a car while you were drunk and think it’s all OK because no one got killed, you didn’t go to jail, and you’re in rehab. So what if the car is totaled? You can just buy a new one! And yeah, it sucks that your wife walks with a limp now, but that will probably go away eventually and it doesn’t seem to bother her too much anyway.

Why am I in rehab in this analogy if I've not felt the consequences of my actions?

I find this an odd thing to say.

Yea. I wouldn't put it quite like that either to be honest. Infidelity has two sides (well, three if you count the other man/woman - though I wouldn't so much, the individual playing that particular role is quite incidental to the play at hand in the end). Coming here, whether one has been the cheater or their partner, is about figuring out how to survive either by divorce or reconciliation.

Reconciliation is a joint decision and a joint effort; it's not fair but very few things in life are.

Divorce needs to be survived by both partners as well.

You speak my language.

It is a language of pain, anger and absolutism; I spoke it well at one point too. Understandable but destructive.

Are you seriously saying infidelity isn't a betrayal? wow

There's a lot of GOTCHA moments in the discussions around... tiring. All I'm seriously saying is that SurvivingInfidelity.com (in my opinion) is a website for surviving of the person who was betrayed and the person who did the betraying. Surviving however is not healing; I think many people here slow or stop their healing in favor of surviving. Take it for whatever you feel it is worth...

it sucks that your wife walks with a limp now, but that will probably go away eventually and it doesn’t seem to bother her too much anyway.

Maybe she doesn’t feel like she walks with a limp? My husband doesn’t. And he’d be pretty pissed if I treated him that way, that he’s somehow permanently damaged by my personal train wreck. He hasn’t always felt that way, but he does now.

One thing I’ve learned, healing is individual and not linear.

One thing I find kinda ironic about this whole "car" analogy is that in real life, I'm the one with the actual limp. Got me an intramedullary nail nestled in one of my legs following getting hit by a very real car a few years ago - and no, I wasn't drunk at the time

FD - I'm just gonna throw this out there as gently as I can, and prolly check out, as I get the impression that you aren't particularly interested in the BS perspective (or maybe it's just mine...)

There is something about the "tone" (albeit difficult to discern on a screen) in your posts that gives me a sense of something "off"... hard to put into words, but I think a lack of humility may be the best. Maybe this is irrelevant to you, which is fine - I've said before that it's your life and your A and your (and BW's) recovery. So if it works for you, then great.

But reading this thread you MAY notice that your response to a different idea or perspective is, IMHO, a kind of defensiveness, and sometimes a snide remark. I've noticed this on more than one of your threads/posts. If that's where you are or the perspective you want to present, then great. If it's something you have an interest in working on, then it may be helpful to read your responses.

A little "for instance" is:

There's a lot of GOTCHA moments in the discussions around... tiring.

Perhaps you may consider thinking of this comment from a different perspective, or how it may be "heard" by others (WS and BS alike)? IOW, one could read this and think: if SI is so "tiring" to FD, then why is he here? What is he getting? What are others contributing to his journey? And then there's the "gotcha" comment. I "hear" that as saying folks on SI are trying to "get" you? How is that helpful? Can you see the ways in which a reader - or rather one who is posting on your thread - may find that insulting? What might that "say" about where you are today in your recovery? I don't have the answers here (and really don't need one), this is just a perspective that you may find of interest.

You speak of "absolutism" as a language you USED to speak well... but the way I read your posts, it seems that particular language has not been forgotten.

Just reading this last post of yours here (not about the limp), and all I see is "defense, defense, defense", but not a lot of introspection/sharing. Not saying that is "wrong" (or trying to bring shame). And I say this knowing that not all posts can be helpful to the OP, not all posts should/need to be replied to, etc.

And while it feels like beating the proverbial dead horse, I get the impression that you don't feel you have "lost" anything you treasured as a result of your infidelity. If that's your head & heart, then so be it .... but I find that pretty hard to believe (and really gotta wonder if your BW would agree).

Godspeed.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 3:39 PM, November 17th, 2020 (Tuesday)]

if SI is so "tiring" to FD, then why is he here? What is he getting? What are others contributing to his journey? And then there's the "gotcha" comment.

Most of SI is tiring to me. You can tell which people I value by seeing which people I reply to and how. I don't believe that every perspective is valid or useful. Being a victim of abuse does not confer, in my eyes, a property of rightness to the opinion; it only means someone has suffered.

I do try to minimize my interactions and time here. I read a lot more than I write.

As far as humility goes; I don't know how people read me but I don't consider myself overly humble or overly arrogant - just, me. I don't see virtue in humility any more than I see it in arrogance. Do you think there might be an expected hierarchy implied in with your observation on my "tone"?

but the way I read your posts, it seems that particular language has not been forgotten.

I try to own my statements and experience. If I do speak in absolute or generalized terms then it is not on purpose.

I get the impression that you don't feel you have "lost" anything you treasured as a result of your infidelity. If that's your head & heart, then so be it .... but I find that pretty hard to believe (and really gotta wonder if your BW would agree).

The things that I lost were not really mine to begin with.

I've found that there's a common process we (both partners) usually go through during healing; which is to let go of the marriage, the old relationship, in order to build something new. It took me a long time to relinquish my control over the things I believed I lost. But doing so changed my perspective on the concept of "losing" them.

I still experience painful memories, I experience triggers, I wish I could've chosen more wisely, I reflect back and I move forward.

****

I "hear" that as saying folks on SI are trying to "get" you?

I did want to come back to this quote for a second (as a last thing to say). "You hear" does not necessarily means "I said". I wrote specifically "discussions" and "around". Plural and not just in this thread. It has nothing to do with people trying to get me or others. I think that the GOTCHA moments are made by people in pain who cannot or do not want to see beyond their pain. It has zero to do with me.

****

Godspeed too, gmc. I wish you nothing but happiness where you are.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 4:26 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

My analogy wasn’t supposed to be perfectly linear, but since you asked why you would be in rehab in this scenario, people frequently go to mandatory rehab in lieu of jail or losing their license. It doesn’t mean they genuinely agree they need to be in rehab or change. In your case, simply not wanting to get divorced isn’t indicative of remorse.

I’m not saying that you should be weeping or engaging in self-flagellation constantly; that can be counterproductive as well. I also don’t particularly care one way or another whether you feel bad about what you’ve done or successfully reconcile because I’m not the one married to you.

But if your goal is to improve yourself and repair your marriage, maybe you should at least give some consideration to people’s perceptions of your wayward thinking before just dismissing them outright.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:52 AM, November 18th (Wednesday)]

I asked my WH if there’s anything he treasured that he lost due to his choice to have an A. After some thought, he replied “self respect “.

After 3 years, I think he finally gets it.

I’ve lost forever the comfort of believing that I was so loved that my husband would never put another woman over me. He’s lost forever the self respect that comes from keeping the promise to love and honor his wife.

After some thought, he replied “self respect “.

You should ask him which part of his self respect played a role in cheating on his wife? Did he actually have a positive view of himself? Of you? If he lost his self respect, does that mean he no longer has any? What is he doing to regain it? I had so many illusions about my own conduct, my own behavior. And the forces that drove me to act. Took a long time to sort some of it out. Still a work in progress, like all of us.

I did end up thinking of something I lost. I lost the ability to listen to Meatloaf's "I would do anything for love but I wouldn't do that" and agreeing. I guess if he ever comes out with a "I would do anything for love but I wouldn't do that, again" I'll be golden..

consideration to people’s perceptions of your wayward thinking before just dismissing them outright.

Do you with yours? "Wayward Thinking" is possibly one of the worst concepts that anyone could take from SI. As I said before, this dichotomy that exists here between some perceived "X-type of thinking" is - for me - disconcerting.

FD, I’m a betrayed and I see no problem with your post. My WS and I, though still together, have been still unable to reconcile 4 years post d-day. The only thing it would take was for him to have an attitude of humility and gratitude like you have here. What some of the others seem to see as nonchalant reads more to me like a refreshing, matter-of-fact ownership of what you’ve done and who you were when you did it.

I’d give anything to hear this level of frank self-assessment from my WH. Instead he wants it rug swept, and if it does come up, he still minimizes, euphemises, rationalizes, and compares himself to others who did “worse.” He doesn’t do this to convince me, he knows I believe otherwise, he does it to convince himself so he can hold on to the narrative that allows him to avoid facing the pain of what he’s done. He’s afraid.

I’ve had to heal entirely on my own, and every step of the way I have still tried to show him grace and compassion. But he kept holding onto a lie out of fear. What is he afraid of? That I want him to “live a life of constant penitence” (his phrase) and that he’d forever have what he had done hanging over his head. I had no idea how on earth he had decided that from my behavior, but he did tell me more than once that he had lurked here but rejected the idea of posting because that’s what the BS’s here subscribed to. Then I thought it was just his perception, but after seeing some of the replies to this post, I see it may not be. So while I’m not shifting the blame from him, I do want BS’s to be aware that these types of response can reinforce negativity and shame and could be causing people who are already suffering, WS and BS, to suffer even more.

I’m all too aware that the BS’s posting here are suffering. There is a phrase that Rick Reynolds from Affair Recovery uses that I have found to be true 100% of the time: “Pain that isn’t transformed is transmitted.” All I want for myself, my husband, and everyone here is to heal, but the only way to do that is to use even the pain to grow. Let it make you better, not bitter.

And FD, thanks for your bravery in all your posts with no stop sign. And if you haven’t told your wife what you’ve said here, do it. It will mean a lot. And if you have, do it again for the BS’s who wish they could hear it.

[This message edited by AintGonnaLose at 6:09 PM, November 19th (Thursday)]

FD, I think the fact that you are continuing to respond to the line of thought in this thread is brave. There are a good number of people who come in and stir the pot a bit and then dissappear. I dont think stirring the pot was your original intention here but in a forum of this size even the best of intentions can go horribly wrong.

What I read in your post is a lack of humility and empathy. That is just one wayward opinion toward another. To me its something like walking into a chemo ward and telling all the patients who are receiving treatment that you are cured. Not only are you cured and moving forward with your life successfully, you didn't really lose anything in the process of fighting for your life. How do you think that would make them feel? Of course there is an immense amount of joy for successfull recovery and remission but there are also people who have lost their lives in the process. It isn't that those people learned faster or tried harder, sometimes life really just isn't fair.

There are betrayed and wayward spouses here who have died, committed suicide, or feel like they are dying from the pain caused by infidelity. You can read it everywhere here. The community as a whole is strong because this type of universal pain shouldn't be taken on alone. Its human nature to see certain situations through the lens of what we've experienced. You will get both sides of any opinion eventually simply based of this sites diversity.

The value, again in my humble opinion, is searching for perspectives outside of your own. If this simply needs to be about right and wrong you could go that route but it seems there are very rarely only two options. You will find more help(if thats what your really want) by asking questions to understand instead of trying to be understood.

Im sure you can pick this post or my comparisons apart if you'd like but the people here , including myself, are trying to help you. You can choose to look at it from a place of humility, you can argue your perspective until you're blue in the face or you can simply decide to take what you need and leave the rest. Whatever way you decide to go I genuinely wish you and your spouse the best.

You should ask him which part of his self respect played a role in cheating on his wife? Did he actually have a positive view of himself? Of you? If he lost his self respect, does that mean he no longer has any? What is he doing to regain it? I had so many illusions about my own conduct, my own behavior. And the forces that drove me to act. Took a long time to sort some of it out. Still a work in progress, like all of us..

Of course it doesn't mean he has no self respect. He’s done much in his life deserving of respect. But the portion of self respect that comes from fulfilling the promise to love and protect the one he promised to love and protect way back when is gone forever. IMO he’s moved beyond the shallow self serving thinking that got us here.

I'll let him respond to the rest if he wants.

I did end up thinking of something I lost. I lost the ability to listen to Meatloaf's "I would do anything for love but I wouldn't do that" and agreeing. I guess if he ever comes out with a "I would do anything for love but I wouldn't do that, again" I'll be golden..

Funny, we are Meatloaf fans as well, but I don't think I follow.

So you would do anything for love, but you won't do what again? Have an affair?

[This message edited by Sadwife53 at 2:38 AM, November 20th (Friday)]

Thank you Sayuwontletgo, you articulated my sentiments much better than I did.

FD,

First of all, I would like to commend you on still being here, while taking a beating, still trying to figure things out. Most people are not so brave.

Regarding:

So, to bring it to close.. I don't know the answer. I cheated. But I do know that only a very broken person would need to ask themselves that.

I would like to say, simply, you don't know what you don't know. Keep working on yourself and learning, and you will develop the answers to this question. Your world view has been distorted and shallow leading you to make the bd decisions you have made. Just keep learning and improving your view and the answers arrive. Be advised, answers are companioned with increased empathy capacity towards your wife and family. This will cause you pain. Stay brave. Stay on task. The work will be worth it. One aspect of learning I believe you still have in front of you is understanding the importance of your legacy and how it impacts your family.

Also, after reading your first post, although it might be true, the positive outcomes you predict will not happen just because you say it. Far from it, I believe good outcomes are highly unlikely unless you continue performing the hard work, for years, and additionally, your wife performs hard work to carry the life long burden you placed on her. Don't kid yourself by just saying it to make yourself feel better. You have a long hard road ahead of you.

s/l

Also, after reading your first post, although it might be true, the positive outcomes you predict will not happen just because you say it.

Not just because, but believe me, a good outlook can make all the difference. Negativity in a WS makes reconciliation impossible and results in heaping pain and blame on the BS. I’ve longed so many times to hear the kind of things FD said here. I think if my WS would feel better about himself, me, and the future, it would make reconciliation possible.

SUWLG, I’m not reading a lack of humility here. Humility is evident in sober judgement of the past, gratitude for the present, and hope for the future. FD knows he still has work to do, it doesn’t seem like he’s being cavalier. In order to make reconciliation work, BS’s need humility as well or it’s not a true reconciliation. For sure, WS must put BS’s needs first, and initially, BS’s are so hurt and confused that it’s impossible to know how to behave. Early on the very act of being willing to reconcile is enough. But there comes a point when we have to ask ourselves when and what will be enough.

None of us are perfect, and BS’s should be able to get to a point where we’re able to judge ourselves the same way we expect our WS to do. Yes, they did that shitty self-serving thing to us. Yes, we showed grace and forgiveness. But if we use that to believe we always have the moral high ground, “You still have work to do.” but “I don’t because my issues, whatever they are, won’t ever be as bad as you cheating, therefore I’m freed from responsibility for that because you don’t have the right to be upset.” Does the WS have the right to make demands? No. But does the BS have the right to hold that over their heads? No. Using someone else’s behavior to justify your own is wayward thinking.

I’m not advocating for WS’s not to have to work on themselves or have humility. I’m just saying BS’s need to also. Eventually we have to let go of the hurt, that in itself is an act of incredible grace. It sounds to me like FD is recognizing the willingness to do this in his BS and expressing the gratitude that he should have towards her for this.

[This message edited by AintGonnaLose at 10:58 AM, November 20th (Friday)]

AGL, I think its absolutely fine that you read this thread that way, as I said before I do think the intention of the OP was what you were talking about. The gratitude and the understanding are awesome. I also read what others have picked up on and can recognize some of it from my own thinking patterns through the process. The people here helped me work through that by questioning it. It wasn't always pretty but lasting change rarely is. Thats all I'm pointing out here. I can see some BS and WS alike being slightly triggered and that's always going to be worth some evaluation.

I am admittedly biased when addressing your response because of knowing your wayward and how closely both MTB and I have been with you guys through the process we went through. I hope what you've talked about continues to move forward for you and that theres some hope for some healing as well.

I am not going to pile on FD. What I am curious about is why did you feel this needed to be a separate post from Mickie's? You said that it didn't fit.

I went back and looked at Mickies, and then I reread what you started here.

I am going to make an observation WS to WS and leave the rest alone.

I think, by comparing the threads the difference is maybe optimism. I think you cope with what you did by trying to stay on the "bright side" of it.

I think I understand how that is a way to cope. I can't tell you how to live your life, or what your outlook should be. However, when I look at my work, or the work of others here that I have admired over the years I think that the struggle with the shame, and the remorse, and all the dark stuff what usually happens as a result of really sitting with that is we come out with a sense of what truly changed forever. I have certainly found that what I had to do to come to the other side of some of that darkness is to do better, to be better, and to develop a relationship with myself that includes self compassion. But, I don't think, even when I thought H and I were in R, that I ever felt that in order to have self compassion I had to dismiss the tremendous ways in which I changed him, traumatized him, etc.

I think that yes, people can survive infidelity, and people can heal over time, but it doesn't take away whatever we have done to their emotional dna - forever. Or the foundation of the relationship.

There is nothing wrong with healing as a WS, gaining a sense of satisfaction for walking a better path, and doing the right things moving forward. But make sure you are not doing that so shallowly that you don't feel you can't acknowledge what you did to her. It's a strange balance sometimes, learning to be happy again, learning to be whole, but keeping that remorse and understanding that reminds you to cherish her in a way you never did before. It's not a situation where you rub some dirt on it and move on. And, you can't really say whether there are worse things.

When hellfire said:

I find this an odd thing to say. Over the years,many former waywards, who have done the work on themselves,have stated that the first person they betrayed was themselves.

What came to mind for me is my cheating by far was the worst thing I ever did to myself. If it's the worst thing I have ever experienced, then there are no worse things. And, if I, as the wayward feel this way, then I could only imagine that by far it's the worst thing that ever happened to him. Having now worn the other set of shoes and having been betrayed myself, there is a deep lack of confidence and trust in myself that I am not sure ever goes away.

So, I guess what I would say is evaluate whether you really feel deeply that you have healed something. It just seems to me like you sound like a person who did not struggle in that dark place yet, and that's why your words are ringing hollow to others. Without that struggle or understanding of the betrayal of yourself, what you could have had if you walked a different path, I really question if you can begin to relate to the depth of what your wife's experience has been. I have to agree with the others here, it rings shallow. And, i come back to the question of why did you feel like your post didn't fit in Mickie's post?

And, i come back to the question of why did you feel like your post didn't fit in Mickie's post?

I didn't want to derail their thread to the last 3 pages of this thread because it has nothing to do with her original question. She asked to post about things we lost/missing. I posted about things I never had to lose.

And, you can't really say whether there are worse things.

You may not agree with me. I know that many on this website would disagree. There are entire ridiculous threads in "General" with absolute claims regarding infidelity based on anecdotal evidence. Like I said, I saw 4 of my friends blow up; trust me, they've got it worse than any of us here - but I'm happy to agree to disagree on this matter.

It's not to say that surviving infidelity and thriving after trauma like it, is easy. But we should always strive to become better; the option is always there. For those that betrayed and those that were betrayed.

what you could have had if you walked a different path,

None of us here could have walked a different path. The only path we can choose is the path ahead of us.

Funny, we are Meatloaf fans as well, but I don't think I follow.

Was just a joke (not the part about liking Meatloaf, one of my favorite performers of all times). Not a very good one. My kids are always the first to tell me my jokes suck

there is a deep lack of confidence and trust in myself that I am not sure ever goes away.

You mention learning to be whole. And also say this. How do you see the concept of healing towards being whole? What is "whole" then in this context? Do you believe you can be whole?

Letting go of the things I thought I had, thought I was. I don't see that as losing them; any more than I see waking up in the morning as losing the dreams of the previous night. I'm not sure how we've tied the concept of missing illusions to the idea that I no longer struggle in life? I wake up every day, I take time to appreciate what I have. I struggle with lying still - though I'm getting better at it. My wife and I argue. We fight. Then we sit down and talk to try and figure out together what happened. Sometimes we need space. Sometimes we work on it immediately. But we also spend nearly every night a few precious moments drinking tea and talking about her studies or my work. We raise three amazing kids together. We travel. We laugh. We love. And yes, again, we hurt.

For example, just tonight we had an emotional struggle where at some point I asked her for space so I could better understand my reactions (she was obviously triggered by an earlier discussion which brought back memories). We sat down 20 minutes later and worked on our relationship. It is daily work. Reconciliation isn't a magical state of affairs (excuse the absolutely horrible choice of words). We've decided, together, that we're reconciled. And now and for the rest of our lives (as far as we can plan it obviously - a concept, which in and of itself, is a trigger for my wife given the traumatic existential experience that is part of infidelity) we are committed to work on us. On not taking each other for granted. On being married. I'm planning on spending the rest of my life showing her that she can trust me; I make no judgement on whether she is going to trust me just that the option is there.

I'm not changing myself for her - it's a pretense that does not work for me. I'm changing myself because I want to be the way that I believe I should be. Honest. Caring. Strong. Supportive. A good father. A good husband. A good friend. And everything else in between. I'm going to succeed in some things and fail in others. In that regard, I'm neither better nor worse than anyone here, "wayward" or "betrayed". We are all, in the end, human.

It just seems to me like you sound like a person who did not struggle in that dark place yet, and that's why your words are ringing hollow to others.

Why do I need to sound like any particular person? What dark place do you think I've missed along my way?

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 4:02 PM, November 20th (Friday)]

Ok. You didn't lose anything,and you don't miss anything.

What about your wife? What has she lost,as a result of your actions?