SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

FB,

I appreciate your willingness to post and your honesty in sharing the perspective that you've reached right now.

I was wanting to ask: Do you at least miss those years you wasted with your wife and kids while you were living in lies and fabricating a facade of reality? Do you miss the real and authentic joy you could have had if those years had been different?

I read your post about choices with interest. I hope I'm framing this right by saying that in counseling you've learned that you couldn't/wouldn't have made different choices because you hadn't dealt with some of your own significant issues and, at the time, you wouldn't have understood that you needed IC to work through them.

I'm on the fence about this thinking. None of can change the past. Damn, that's why we are here. But where is the line between I won't forever be stuck in a shame spiral because of my past brokenness and past actions, so I will understand and forgive my past broken self and move on AND if I forgive my past destructive actions because of my brokenness I will likely forgive future damaging actions for a similar reason, since all of us (WS & BS alike) will always be able to own that we are flawed/broken/challenged in certain ways?

I don't have the answer to my own question. The question does land in part of the center mass of my own struggle with trust in my situation. I want my WH to own his very destructive choices and understand the damage they've done. But I also want him to move past the "I'm a terrible person point" and get to the "I'm a flawed human, but not fundamentally a terrible person" point--especially since his own lack of self-confidence made him vulnerable to the A.

Yet, I have to get to a point where I believe that he won't cope with his own issues in the same destructive way again.

There's the rub. Where's the line between regretting and owning past behavior as a CHOICE (and acknowledging that other choices were possible) and undersanding/forgiving ourselves? Can we forgive ourselves of past destructive actions and still regret what we lost because of them, so we don't choose to act in those destructive ways again?

Yet, I have to get to a point where I believe that he won't cope with his own issues in the same destructive way again.

He needs to reach that point first I would say.

I was unwilling to forgive myself for a long time. I grew up with the notion that forgiving is also forgetting. That forgiving is removing the responsibility and pretending that everything is ok again. Then rinse and repeat. Not to mention, look at what my father did (stole money and cheated on my mom) - I'll never forgive him, why should I forgive myself?

I don't think forgiveness is a "get out of jail" free card. Nor do I believe I can forgive myself for actions I've not taken. I don't think that's forgiveness at all.

I spoke a lot about forgiveness with my therapist. Eventually (and obviously this is my take on it), I understood that forgiveness is accepting my choices and then working to create boundaries and tools so that I can be the person that I want to be. A better person. To do that, I - personally - had to learn to forgive my parents. Find my boundaries with them and accept that they are who they are. When I managed to do that, I managed to accept myself as well (again, this is my journey).

Can we forgive ourselves of past destructive actions and still regret what we lost because of them

Sure, I guess? I think everyone's journey, everyone's definition of "whole" is going to be slightly different. I have good memories and bad memories. In some years the bad far outweigh the good. But the good is still there. Time is not a single point but a continuum. And I know a lot of people here do and will argue that ALL the memories are tainted forever. And perhaps for them they are. But they aren't for me. I don't want to rewrite my memories and my life anymore to fit my own narrative (I've done that enough through my family). So I choose to remember the good and the bad. In the end, I much rather look forward to the next mountain to climb with my wife then back on the places we've already been :)

As far as reconciliation goes. And marriage. And life in general. It's not fair. But at some point we all have to take a leap of faith.

You saw people blow up. I get that's the worst thing that happened to YOU. Your wife did not see this, likely your infidelity and lack of valuing her was the worst thing that happened to HER. That's where your empathy sounds like it's missing. Saying there are worse things, when some people never have experienced worse things. There are people on this site who have lost children and they would say that was the worst thing, but infidelity came a close second. Let that sink in a bit. It's okay to acknowledge how earth shattering that is for most people.

It's not to say that surviving infidelity and thriving after trauma like it, is easy. But we should always strive to become better; the option is always there. For those that betrayed and those that were betrayed.

Understand, I do not disagree with this. I believe that WS are redeemable if they work towards their redemption.

None of us here could have walked a different path.

No, you are turning my words around here. We all could have walked a different path if we had made better decisions. The infidelity was not inevitable. I get you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

there is a deep lack of confidence and trust in myself that I am not sure ever goes away.

You mention learning to be whole. And also say this. How do you see the concept of healing towards being whole? What is "whole" then in this context? Do you believe you can be whole?

As a WS, my goal is to be whole, meaning that I didn't rely on so much external to get my worth. This quote is about what it's like as a BS. I believed in my H. I believed that he would never do that to me, just like he believed that of me. What his cheating taught me is that it makes you not have the confidence in yourself to know what is happening in your own damned life. This part was confusing because I came at you as the WS for the most part in my response. I had zero inkling he was cheating. How can I trust myself to see my own reality?

Letting go of the things I thought I had, thought I was. I don't see that as losing them; any more than I see waking up in the morning as losing the dreams of the previous night.

I understand what you are saying here, but I think it's highly unusual you would not associate the aftermath of infidelity as grief. If this is just part of a grown perspective, fine, okay. I think you might be further out and maybe I will see it that way later. The amount of grief I struggled with is so fresh, that it's hard to see any empathy/remorse in your response. I am sorry, it sounds weird from my perspective.

I'm not sure how we've tied the concept of missing illusions to the idea that I no longer struggle in life? I wake up every day, I take time to appreciate what I have. I struggle with lying still - though I'm getting better at it. My wife and I argue. We fight. Then we sit down and talk to try and figure out together what happened. Sometimes we need space. Sometimes we work on it immediately.

I don't think anyone is saying you don't. It just doesn't ring true to me that you came through this process not feeling like you lost anything, even if it's seeing it through your wife's lens. Sure, maybe she has healed a great deal from that time, but I don't see how really understanding what you did to her could ever leave you. It will never leave me fully.

Sure, it's not something that will be the main focus of our days forever. I get that. However, I don't think that I will ever forget or no longer be able to connect with this pain. You sound incredibly disassociative.

But we also spend nearly every night a few precious moments drinking tea and talking about her studies or my work. We raise three amazing kids together. We travel. We laugh. We love. And yes, again, we hurt.

There. How do you not see this as a permanent loss of some sort? I understand what you are saying about the rest, we seemed to come to that spot as well for, well, about as long as his affair went on. I get that there is healing. But, there is no healing without a loss. Grief.

For example, just tonight we had an emotional struggle where at some point I asked her for space so I could better understand my reactions (she was obviously triggered by an earlier discussion which brought back memories). We sat down 20 minutes later and worked on our relationship. It is daily work. Reconciliation isn't a magical state of affairs (excuse the absolutely horrible choice of words). We've decided, together, that we're reconciled.

I don't think anyone is saying that you don't work on your relationship either.

I'm not changing myself for her - it's a pretense that does not work for me. I'm changing myself because I want to be the way that I believe I should be. Honest. Caring. Strong. Supportive. A good father. A good husband. A good friend. And everything else in between.

This is something I also believe strongly in. All real change is selfish. I feel the same.

I'm going to succeed in some things and fail in others. In that regard, I'm neither better nor worse than anyone here, "wayward" or "betrayed". We are all, in the end, human.

Same, I fight off the perfectionism and see the beauty of imperfect.

It just seems to me like you sound like a person who did not struggle in that dark place yet, and that's why your words are ringing hollow to others.

Why do I need to sound like any particular person? What dark place do you think I've missed along my way?

Grief. Without loss there is no grief. You talking around the loss is weird, it's not something I could ever imagine after having grieved for so long. After all the work, the reparations, the recompense, the remorse. After cycling through the different stages of grief. And, experiencing them now from the other side of this, how can you dismiss your wife's losses with "she is strong"? It's the lackluster way this whole thread started that makes you sound like you never got it. I have read many things from you that make me think you did in fact get it, but this one is hard to relate to.

And, maybe that's all it is. I don't relate.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:38 AM, November 23rd (Monday)]

More succinctly.

I understand coming to a place of acceptance. As a WS, I think I have done that.

I understand moving on.

I just don't understand the lack of loss. I get saying you never had it, never deserved it. You and I feel differently about that because I do think I had it and I do think I deserved it. But, I understand it as a concept. I don't see a lot of connect with what your wife lost.

I get that's the worst thing that happened to YOU

You misunderstand. That's not the worst thing that happened to me. It was the worst thing that happened to them. Yes it was traumatic for me to bury my friends. But I got the chance to heal. Everyone here has the chance to heal. They don't.

No, you are turning my words around here. We all could have walked a different path if we had made better decisions. The infidelity was not inevitable.

I'm not turning your words at all. I've said my words. No we couldn't. And yes it was. You can walk a better road now. You can walk a better road tomorrow. Toothpaste be damned, I can't stand analogies :P

how can you dismiss your wife's losses with "she is strong"?

Now you are twisting my words. I don't dismiss my wife's losses. In fact, not once did I speak on my wife's behalf regarding her sense of loss. I speak from my own perspective on myself and my journey. People seem really hung on me talking about my wife's sense of loss (whether she has or not). But my experience of the affair is different from hers. We can't go through the same process to heal. Do people really think that when my wife wants to talk about her pain I do what, smugly laugh in her face and tell her to shut up? Seriously?

Grief. Without loss there is no grief. You talking around the loss is weird

I grieved when I was selfish. When I started therapy I threw myself into the work (I went in once a week, sometimes twice, for over a year - dunno if that's a lot for other people, felt pretty intense for me). I don't feel like I've lost my past. I threw out and replaced a lot of things but... All of my memories are still mine. All my actions and choices are still mine. My marriage didn't suddenly die. I didn't suddenly have an affair. At this point in my life I see no reason to grieve. I grew up.

We're still healing the damage to our relationship. I suspect we need a few more years for the scars to form. But they will. And we've chosen to stay married. To love each other. It's not going to be the same as before. But then again, what thing ever is? Life is about moving forward.

***

Also wanted to say. We agree on some things; we disagree on others. That's alright. It's part of sharing our experiences. That's why we're here.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 4:44 PM, November 23rd (Monday)]

Sincere questions..

Have you learned anything helpful on this site?

Has anything you have read changed your mind about the way you feel, or the way you are doing things in your reconciliation?

What I miss...?

I miss the simple untarnished love that wasn't wrapped in pain. The pain I feel and more importantly the pain I've caused.

FD,

You come across as if you were indifferent to the damage you caused. I hope I'm wrong. I was/am very good at being indifferent, so I can relate. Maybe it's just the part of yourself that you are sharing with us.

I've only recently started digging out of the hole I've created with my abuse and infidelity, but I don't ever want to be indifferent again. My indifference led to rugsweeping. Rugsweeping nearly killed me years later (it did end my marriage).

Empathy doesn't/didn't come naturally to me. After experiencing my own dday things changed. Usually I have to experience something myself before I can empathize with others. I would just rationalize everyone's pain, problem, illness, concern. It didn't matter to me how they felt. I think I closed off that part of me at a very young age.

For example: I looked down on anyone who attempted or committed suicide (my mom attempted it twice before I was 10). I only saw it as a selfish act. I didn't understand the pain someone could be in, that they would believe not living was the best solution. Then last year I felt that level of pain first hand. Needless to say my view point has changed dramatically.

You are right. Pretty much everything can be survived. That there are worse things than infidelity. But to the people struggling to survive infidelity, hearing that from an abuser is very hard to swallow. I'm not saying don't post authentically. You left the stop sign off for a reason, even though you didn't want to muddy another thread. Part of you knew it would ruffle some feathers, otherwise you wouldn't have started a thread over here.

Here's an interesting thing that happened to me just last weekend. I gave my young daughter permission to pick out a toy at the store. She had it narrowed down to two choices. I told her to pick one and put the other back. She sat there puzzled for a bit, and starting crying. Not crying like a spoiled child, but crying as if it was a life or death choice for those toys (she was balling). Save one and the other falls into the toy abyss never to be seen again. Old indifferent me would have made her put both toys back and ridicule her for being selfish. Not now, now I could feel her pain. All I could do was pick her up and console her. I could see the pain she was is in. A distraught child who has had a good life. To her this was a HUGE deal, and she couldn't cope. Will there be more difficult obstacles in her life? Of course! That doesn't change the feelings she had that day, or how difficult it was for her. In the end, I made the decision for her, and she was grateful! She actually thanked me (no she didnt get both toys ).

I grieved when I was selfish

Can you elaborate on this? Do you feel IC was selfish? I was selfish during my abuse, and afterwards while I rugswept. I never grieved during those times. It wasn't till I could really feel what I had done to someone I supposedly loved, that's when I experienced loss and grief soon followed. I am currently still in that phase of healing. I certainly wouldn't consider these feelings as selfish.

Sorry for the story telling. I am glad you created this thread. Whether or not it helps you in some way....IDK. But it has helped me. So thanks.

I also am okay with disagreeing. None of us are experts on what to do.

Now you are twisting my words. I don't dismiss my wife's losses. In fact, not once did I speak on my wife's behalf regarding her sense of loss. I speak from my own perspective on myself and my journey. People seem really hung on me talking about my wife's sense of loss (whether she has or not). But my experience of the affair is different from hers. We can't go through the same process to heal. Do people really think that when my wife wants to talk about her pain I do what, smugly laugh in her face and tell her to shut up? Seriously?

No, I don’t think that. And I understand what you are saying because at times I felt I posted something unrelated and couldn’t see why people were refocusing me to talk about my husband. I have seen it happen to others here.

But the reason you are getting this from so many people is to say you miss nothing, you lost nothing, comes across as you don’t deeply feel what you did to your wife. It’s fine, you don’t have to answer to a bunch of strangers. However, I hope you think about it more because it could unlock some things or help you relate better to her. To be able to help her more. You talk very detached sounding so I think people are seeing that as a lack of remorse towards what you did to her. For so many people to overwhelmingly see it at least consider where there is smoke there is fire.

It’s very difficult for me to understand how infidelity causes so much pain (really to both people generally) that you see no loss. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that I can’t see gains in my situation as well, even in the mess it’s in right now. But I don’t see one over the other. Just food for thought. I am not here to have you convince me. I am here to help you by reflecting back what it is I am hearing in what you are saying. Because I wish to help you. If you don’t need help or refuse to accept what I see as true, then either maybe it’s not or you aren’t ready. I will never know which it is, and don’t really need to. I hope you will think more about it all so you haven’t dismissed it without some processing. Take care.

I was selfish during my abuse, and afterwards while I rugswept. I never grieved during those times. It wasn't till I could really feel what I had done to someone I supposedly loved, that's when I experienced loss and grief soon followed.

I had the same experience.

Sorry, I had one last thought forgettable dad.

You said seeing the others blow up was the worst thing that happened to them, as correction for me saying that's the worst thing that happened to you.

I understand why you say that. But, it did happen to you too. You had to watch that, when noone should have. I know you are in IC so I am not going to make PTSD comments, though I do recognize that could be part of your overall detachment - that some of your treatment on how you have been walked through things was different due to your background and significant trauma. The framing and work may be very, very different.

But, what I wanted to point out is the thing you seem to be talking around. To each of us, we all have those "worst" moments. All of us. And, while others may have ones that sound worse than our own - we all have levels of coping with that. For many people here, infidelity is the worst thing that ever happened to them. I would say for even a majority of the people on this site. And, I would say probably for your wife. You do not go through the worst thing that happened to you without a sense of loss. That's why it's hard for everyone to relate to what you are saying.

The worst thing I have experienced is the aftermath of my affair. I have a different experience than many, I would put his affair as a very distant 2nd to the worst thing that ever happened to me. And, I think it goes back to the thought I am having trouble wrapping a bow around. *and I think this is more about me than your post so I appreciate the indulgence* If I hadn't done what I did, my husband's affair would have been by far the worst thing that ever happened to me. So, in that way those things are always relative. That's why I could see your service time and things you saw maybe changing your perspective.

Also, it's maybe where each of us are in the journey. I am only a month into this other situation. I haven't suffered with it and tried to make sense of it for three years like I did my affair. But, in essence, I think that's why it's hard for me to relate to you. I generally feel I lost a big part of my life by cheating on my husband. Years of time that could have been spent without this cloud. His respect. His trust. His easy friendship. Spending time with my kids without that secret between us. I want to wrap my mind around what you are trying to tell us, but I just can't.

One of the main coping mechanisms I've developed in my youth to deal with my family was apathy. I disconnected completely. I spent years moving through my life utterly without care, concern or much emotion at all. I think it's one of the reasons I survived my service (and wasn't a half-bad soldier). In fact, I retained very few memories and even those are, smudgy?

I'm very wary of that state these days. I've spent a lot of time in therapy connecting back to my emotions. To even understand what emotions feel like. Then spent time trying to figure out how to, well, just feel.

My wife used to tell me a lot that she "can't feel me". Never understood that. Always just nodded and moved forward.

I feel very strongly these days. Pain. Joy. And everything in between. I still disconnect every once in a while. I can pick up on it better, I understand what my wife means when she says that I'm not there. I have the tools to unlock myself.

His respect. His trust. His easy friendship.

I didn't lose the respect, trust and friendship. For a long time I gave them up. And now I accept them. We're building our trust and respect. We're building our friendship. I carry with me the pain I caused. I carry with me the good memories. I grieved, of course I did, I think it was a natural part of my process to view "trust" and "friendship" as things that I somehow lost. But at some point I had to let it go and accept that none of those things are "lost"; some of them were never real, some of them can be rebuilt. And all of those decisions, choices, times, I still carry them with me. For me, I didn't need to grieve. I needed to take responsibility and allow myself to feel my pain; to feel my wife's pain (as much as anyone can feel another person's pain). I personally think that grief (in the same way I grieved my friends) wasn't very helpful to my process.

You do not go through the worst thing that happened to you without a sense of loss.

Is loss the same as pain?

FD, I just read through this. I relate to much of what you are saying. I feel grateful every day. When I think about the affair from my perspective I see what I have now that I didn't have before the affair and am more than happy - I am joyful. I don't feel a sense of loss, at least not on an initial check through my thoughts, and even sitting with it for a few minutes nothing is coming to mind. It's possible that's because I didn't lose anything in the literal sense (not divorced, kids don't know anything, very few people IRL know and the ones who do are supportive). It's possible that it's because it's part of my lifelong coping - look forward and move on, leave behind everything else. Maybe it's partly temperament - I've seen in the young kids I've worked with some who grieve changes and some who are excited about them and it seems to be somewhat innate. Whether nature or nurture, I seldom feel a strong sense of loss and have worked on it in IC. It just doesn't come naturally to me. It's likely that a big part is because my husband has come through the affair and aftermath, not happy that the affair happened, but happy and joyful with the relationship we have now, even though there was/is more pain (from the affair but also talking about childhood stuff together, our everyday lives together), we are together in the pain, and he loves that. That he had a chance to be helpful to me in my worst moments, that our relationship has become much more intimate and real. So maybe that's why what you wrote makes sense to me? I dunno, I'll think about it more and let you know if I come up with something else. And I'll talk to him about it and see if he has anything to add (we are apart all day with various kid activities, usually I check my understanding with him first).

But I have something else to ask, apart from letting you know that you are not alone in your thoughts. I am curious about why you posted at all. Because I think you knew or suspected you would get blowback. I don't think you are the kind of person who is argumentative and just looking for a fight. Did you think the comments would help you? Were you putting down your reality because you don't think it's one that is represented? I don't see you having a make-SI-better-by-expanding-the-discourse-from-it's-current-narrowness type of plan. So, why post?

I know the first reason is that you didn't want to derail the other post, and I'm sure that is true. But there can be other truths/motivations. I think the most likely thing is that for some reason the affair and aftermath are swirling up into your thoughts more than usual and you want a place to talk about it. So if you want to have a place to talk about it, posting on SI is fine but limited, I vaguely recall that you had one year of IC. Maybe there are other things you want to talk about or take another look at? With your childhood and combat trauma and affair . . . Maybe it would be good for you to go back?

Have you learned anything helpful on this site?

Yes. I've learnt a lot. I view SI as a valuable tool in my process. I've gained a much better understanding of my actions and their consequences in a far larger context than my own family (myself and my wife). I've seen so many different paths that people take. There's a lot to be gleamed from being here, reading and interacting.

But

All that said. There are drawbacks. There's a very specific vocal community here with a singular viewpoint and no flexibility. There are a lot of casually thrown generalities. And a lot of pseudo-scientific babble which is very unproductive to the healing process; given the hugbox nature that we want to create in our pain. For me, coming here, is a net profit. For others...? I don't think so.

I don't think you are the kind of person who is argumentative and just looking for a fight.

heh, I've got a cantankerous streak irl. But I really do try not to bring it here (you should see my twitter profile if you want some good quality trolling )

I think the most likely thing is that for some reason the affair and aftermath are swirling up into your thoughts more than usual and you want a place to talk about it.

That's an incredibly intuitive observation actually. And also the reason I don't usually post as much here. I've written above about drawbacks. One of the drawbacks of SI (in my opinion) is in becoming a crutch.

In this case I read Mickie's post and wanted to put up a different opinion so it is on record. I had a feeling it would generate some comments and I do welcome all of it. Even the kneejerk reactions and the just-regular-jerk ones

***

I had an opportunity to speak with my wife about this thread last night actually. And I asked her if she's grieving following my affair and our life before, whether she feels loss and what of. And she said no. She's not. She feels no loss. Lots of pain obviously. There's still a huge break in our trust. But no loss.

No loss of the dreams she had for her marriage? No loss of the normal expectation she had of a faithful husband? Interesting.

I had a long talk with my husband about this. I made a couple of guesses about what he might feel the loss of. At one point he had said he thought we had a fairy tale romance. I asked him if he felt that was lost and he said no, fairy tales are boring and they end at the wedding. He wants a long complicated adventure story for a life. He said the affair was the part where we went to Hades and back. He looks back on the way he treated me during the affair, how he cared for me, and he feels no sense of loss in the story of our relationship, rather that it was a painful chapter. I asked if he feels that he lost the sense of trust. He said no. He trusted me completely on the day we were married but he now knows that I had some pretty significant problems that were tucked away and unresolved. (He actually knew that when we were married, he just thought that getting out of the town where we grew up and into a new life would be enough, and so did I). He said he prefers to know reality with all of its complications and difficulties than fiction. I asked if he feels the loss of anything and he said that at the moment he found out about the affair he felt like he had lost everything, and since then he has gained more than he ever lost, and he doesn't feel any kind of loss. He does feel pain, then and now, though it's less frequent and less intense now, and I can help him when it comes. I have read few to no people like him on SI so I imagine it is easier to think he's delusional or lying. I don't think it's either.

FD, I wrote at some other time about a problem my daughter had when she was younger and how we revisited it over and over every year or two so that she could come to another understanding. I think that's how the affair will be for me and my husband throughout our lives. You work on it, rest, live your life, revisit it and see if there is something left to think about or work on or understand. Your subconscious is probably nudging you in that direction with this post. I hope your conversations with your wife are good. You might think about being intentional in the places/people that you talk to. Go back to IC, find a support group, religious leader, pick a friend, journal, etc. At one point I was working through something and wrote a play about it! There are lots of ways to revisit issues with new eyes. I don't think it ever gets put away for good. Like any other trauma. You've got a few to keep revisiting.

I read back through this thread and I want to take back what I earlier wrote. ForgettableDad was putting himself out there, honestly, with a heartfelt position acknowledging the damage he's done and hoping for a better future for himself and his wife. And then a lot of BS's piled on -- including me. Anyway, hope you are well, forgettabledad.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:33 PM, December 3rd (Thursday)]