SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

wow . Another place where they have no voice...very sad .

I'm moving on...it is obvious this is NOT a place for me to be able to help those who don't have a voice to share THEIR journey.

ENJOY your majority rule.

Folks who have not reconciled can have a positive outcome story outside of reconciliation - touting their personal growth and so on.

ISSF

That's not really true though is it? Everyone has their own idea of what personal growth looks like. What I have found is, if you fall outside what the majority thinks, you're wrong.

Most people deride me for the path I have taken. Most make noises about how I have changed but I don't think they really believe it.

What I do know is I am living my situation and no one else here is. I actually do know what's going on in my life and those of my family. You can only make inferences based upon your own experiences. If you think what I am doing is wrong, great. But I know what's in my mind and heart and I know that path I'm taking is the right one. If that doesn't fall into your definition of R, cool. But I know what really happening in my life. You do not.

^^ I’ll add to the above that WSs who share their positive personal growth experiences and such, while NOT being in reconciliation (whether by choosing to divorce their BS or continuing to live together as roommates) are often—not always—told they are some version of the following:

Not remorseful

Denying their BS agency

Trying to “control the outcome”

Not willing to “do the work”

Taking the “easy way out”

Continuing to feed their BS “the shit sandwich”

Bad parents for breaking up the family (but when a BS divorces, they are GOOD parents for removing their children from a toxic relationship)

Bad parents for NOT breaking up the family (if living as coparents) and modeling the aforementioned toxic relationship

Probably still cheating

...And so forth.

I'm with Darkness Falls.

Part of why I was hesitant to post something positive. I just feel like a piece of shit as this entire thread has been corrupted away from the intent which was to be a positive.

Let us all now go back into our deviant holes now.....

I respect the work FF has done on himself. I've seen it. It was a struggle. But he did it.

There is a recent BW in jfo. She just found out her husband cheated 7 or 8 years ago. She is devastated. She feels it was all a lie. She is drowning in pain.

Imagine, if she were to read her husband had posted on a positive reconciliations thread. Can you step outside of your box,and Imagine how she might feel reading that? And,not only reading his post,but reading other members,waywards and betrayeds, agreeing he has a positive reconciliation story.

He has a positive story, when it comes to becoming a better person. I agree with that.

Want2B...you are exaggerating, my friend. They have a voice there. It is the objection to FF posting there, when he hasn't confessed to his wife that is the issue. Its great that you are defending him. The rest of us are defending his wife, and all other BS who don't know, and may not know, because their WS come to THIS site,a place that stands by complete transparency with your spouse, and read that its ok to not tell their BS.

FF..you have my respect. You do. I will never agree with your decision. But that decision is yours to make. Not mine. I pray for you, and your wife.

I will leave it at that.

DF, I'm not familiar with that happening

here. Unless the WS IS treating their BS like shit after the BS files for divorce,or they are IHS. If the scenario you posted is happening, then that's a shame. Personal growth shouldn't be shamed.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:45 AM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

There are places for WS's to post their stories and their views on their changes. Wayward section is a great place and if that doesn't work because it is steeped in more acute issues related to infidelity then let's start another forum inside here for Waywards to express their journey.

It is fine for a WS to express their positive reconciliation in the Positive Reconciliation Stories provided they are truly reconciled meaning they have an open honest relationship where infidelity is a construct around which they have reconciled. There is no "they" in the reconciliation of a WS who has not confessed. Just because one's behavior has changed, even gotten better from realizing the error of their ways doesn't automatically equate to being reconciled if one part is lying about the very issues around which reconciliation is based.

W2BA - I'm sorry. I don't mean to disrupt anything you are doing nor do I mean to extinguish the extremely positive spirit you bring. I know how much it helped me in my healing journey. Thank you! (ETA emoji for you W2BA!)

It is precisely because of this that I worry about posting in that forum. Let's give WS's the voice they need for sure. Let's also be aware of the immeasurable pain that such behavior has caused and continues to cause the victims. We shouldn't perpetuate it even if it is is inadvertent.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 11:56 AM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

I'm moving on...it is obvious this is NOT a place for me to be able to help those who don't have a voice to share THEIR journey.

His BW doesn't have a voice to share her journey because she doesn't even know what her journey is. We can praise FF to the skies for his personal growth, but what his BW will feel is that she was made an ass of and that was celebrated by members here if she ever reads this. Some here are trying to be a voice for her, even if she never finds out what her marriage was. The goal of SI is surely not preserving a marriage at all costs. His BW is still in a fake marriage.

FF4152, you know that I am another fan of yours. I don't agree with not telling your wife (for your sake, as I have said, an unburdened soul will be the last step in your healing I think). But I have understanding about why you don't, and I am happy to accompany you on your journey as you figure out what is next, and to applaud your growth, as Want2BHappyAgain has already done so well.

As waywards we have to find our little territories within SI, don't we? I used to be annoyed and now find it sobering and kind of funny that the ONE post pinned on the wayward forum is: what you need to know ABOUT YOUR BS (from the mouth of a wayward). It's all about the BS. Not positive stories of how WS have changed. Not how to take care of yourself in the aftermath of an affair. Waywards who get better are encouraged because it might help their BS. Not because they are people. That message is crystal clear through actions, decisions, deafening silences, total lack of leadership in the WS forum (though Want2BHappy really tried there, God bless her), so much space made for people to rehearse and refine their hostility.

So here's what you can do: Put your full story, in your own words, however you want, in the "my story" box in your profile. Then put in your signature "my story is in my profile." Anyone who wants to read can read, anyone who wants to comment, can't. You could also use your journal but fewer people look there.

As waywards we have to find our little territories within SI, don't we? I used to be annoyed and now find it sobering and kind of funny that the ONE post pinned on the wayward forum is: what you need to know ABOUT YOUR BS (from the mouth of a wayward). It's all about the BS. Not positive stories of how WS have changed. Not how to take care of yourself in the aftermath of an affair. Waywards who get better are encouraged because it might help their BS. Not because they are people. That message is crystal clear through actions, decisions, deafening silences, total lack of leadership in the WS forum (though Want2BHappy really tried there, God bless her), so much space made for people to rehearse and refine their hostility.

Wayward = person who hurt the BS

Betrayed Spouse = person who was hurt by the WS

Purpose of site = Surviving Infidelity

Infidelity = thing done to the BS by the WS

It is not hostility for both WS and BS to uphold the basic tenets of honesty in marriages, which is pretty much the first step in healing on both sides.

Thumos, I'm having a hard time squaring your commitment to truth and honesty (with which I heartily agree) with some things you previously wrote about.

I have not read your entire oeuvre - but did your son not ask you what was going on a few times and was met with ongoing silence?

I can tell you from both experience and study what happens next.

He stops asking. Not because it's not important but because bad stuff happens when he asks. you get grumpy or whatever. If you tell me you covered your unhappy reaction to his questions, then you are a really really good faker, which is not good either way. You are probably not a good faker and anyway kids have a BS detector that is highly refined. They need it for their survival. Who can be trusted and who can't. But they are powerless so they mostly keep quiet when they detect hypocrisy.

Next, he develops his own theory about what happened. Children tend to blame themselves. So he figures it's somehow his fault. It's not explicit in his consciousness but it's swirling around down there.

(sidebar - fascinating study - hook people up to electrodes and have them watch neutral TV. Then a violent scene, say a bloody murder. Then just the beginning scene and end scene. Then the beginning scene, a blank screen that says "censored" then the end scene. People's reactions go up in the order I wrote, and they skyrocket in the last one. Why? they fill in their own worst nightmare. That's what your boy is doing in the absence of truth).

Next, he rehearses this lie he has come up with to himself - all subconsciously - every single day. It has been a while since he asked, right? Hundreds of days? He will interpret what he sees around the house in light of his lie. It's actually kind of incredible how easily reality can get distorted around lies. It all makes weird sense, in his head.

Maybe someday you will tell him some kind of truth. It'll be really hard for the truth to compete with the lie he has been rehearsing for hundreds (thousands?) of days. The lie will probably stick, and whatever mental maneuvers he has had to make to keep it.

He won't be able to go to a shrink for help because he will remember the stuff you have said about them.

He won't be able to turn to God because he will think that way of life is hypocrisy.

I can see a clear path to him trying to figure out stuff on his own, and hiding the process. Kind of like FF4152.

Or maybe you already told him and I missed it.

I AM really glad you are so committed to truth and honesty. So am I. For so many reasons.

[This message edited by Pippin at 1:45 PM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

I think ff is a positive story with the work done.

I also understand how important it is to have a voice and a vote in an authentic life. To know what my life really is versus what I thought it was during the 18-years my wife kept her A a secret.

She was able to make a lot of important changes. We did IC and got to be a much stronger couple. My wife still held on to what our truth really was. At that point, the AP and my wife knew more about my existence than I did.

So, I’m on board with all the good stuff that ff is doing for himself and being a better partner. It still doesn’t allow his wife a choice, a voice in her own life story.

I think when only one person knows, it limits the potential of both partners and how far the relationship can go.

And I don’t like the labels, it makes it easy to dismiss each other and our perspectives. We’re people, we’re not defined by our worst moments, unless we allow it. I am not a betrayed spouse. I am not an abused step-son — both things happened, but they do not define me.

I hope ff continues to build on what he has started.

Thumos, to piggyback on Pippin’s question, have you made it absolutely clear to your wife that there is NO chance of reconciliation, despite all the sex you’ve posted that y’all are still having? I ask that because my H initially sold me hope for R despite divorce, and we had quite a lot of HB sex for the two weeks before I moved out—sex that I would not have been agreeing to had he been honest with me that he didn’t actually see any hope for R at that time.

And I don’t like the labels, it makes it easy to dismiss each other and our perspectives.

I vote to make this a plaque above the entry page of SI :)

Purpose of site = Surviving Infidelity

Yup. And FF is surviving it in his way. I disagree with it. You disagree with it. But he's here on SurvivingInfidelity.com surviving infidelity. And, believe it or not, by not knowing and if she never knows, then his wife will survive infidelity. When she finds out, IF she finds out then she'll need to survive it in a different way. I don't like it. Clearly you don't like it. But we don't have to like it - hell, we don't even have to accept it. It's not our life.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 2:01 PM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

It is fine for a WS to express their positive reconciliation in the Positive Reconciliation Stories provided they are truly reconciled meaning they have an open honest relationship where infidelity is a construct around which they have reconciled. There is no "they" in the reconciliation of a WS who has not confessed. Just because one's behavior has changed, even gotten better from realizing the error of their ways doesn't automatically equate to being reconciled if one part is lying about the very issues around which reconciliation is based.

So who gets to choose what reconciliation means outside of the Webster definition? The fact is, I'm not really reconciling from infidelity as much as from a lifetime of bad decisions. I didn't simply go from a morally upstanding citizen to getting blowjobs from my AP overnight. Certainly the A was the culmination of those awful choices but there was much to atone for which was not A related.

The intent of my R story was to illustrate that. That it is possible to go from being a selfish jerk to someone who can be a good partner. As far as I'm concerned, that's what's important. That's how I can say my wife and I are R. My wife has a husband who really loves, honors and cherishes her. Again, if that doesn't fit someone's definition of what R means TO THEM, too bad.

Purpose of site = Surviving Infidelity

You'll notice that there is no disclaimer on SI that says Surviving Infidelity for BS only.

This

Wayward = person who hurt the BS

Infidelity = thing done to the BS by the WS

should have read

Wayward = person who hurt the BS AND THEMSELVES

Infidelity = thing done to the BS by the WS AND TO THEMSELVES

Pippin

As waywards we have to find our little territories within SI, don't we? I used to be annoyed and now find it sobering and kind of funny that the ONE post pinned on the wayward forum is: what you need to know ABOUT YOUR BS (from the mouth of a wayward). It's all about the BS. Not positive stories of how WS have changed. Not how to take care of yourself in the aftermath of an affair. Waywards who get better are encouraged because it might help their BS. Not because they are people. That message is crystal clear through actions, decisions, deafening silences, total lack of leadership in the WS forum (though Want2BHappy really tried there, God bless her), so much space made for people to rehearse and refine their hostility.

I agree. Just from my own experience here, the vitriol thrown my way has often astounded me. I have been sworn at, called names, called a troll, told I have no business being here and the list goes on. I even remember someone starting a thread asking why I had not been banned. All this while never starting a thread outside of the "protected" WS forum.

Are we really comparing not knowing how to tell your little boy that the reason he can't play with his buddy,is because mom fucked the father of his best friend..to a grown man having a 7 year affair and not telling his wife?

Wow.

It's all about the BS. Not positive stories of how WS have changed.

Well. The affair was all about the WS. And, really its not all about the BS. If you bother to read other forums,you would see that the number one thing asked is..what work is the wayward doing on himself.

If you want a positive thread about the work a wayward has done on themselves..start one. The issue was he posted that he had a positive reconciliation story, while continuing to deceive his wife. Two different things. Let's try not to confuse them.

The intent of my R story was to illustrate that. That it is possible to go from being a selfish jerk to someone who can be a good partner.

I think people tend to forget sometimes that the purpose of reconciliation is to move forward into the marriage again which is the important bit. I don't actually know what it feels like to hide an affair so I can't comment on that to be honest...

I have zero opinion about ff’s situation, but I think he made a good point in that Surviving Infidelity is not just about how a BS can survive it, or how a couple can survive it together. It’s the entire reason I still participate on this site, even though my affair was over a decade ago, we divorced afterwards, then remarried, with no further cheating in this re-M. By all accounts, “we” survived infidelity. But these days I am focused on MY survival of infidelity, in that I feel I still have a lot to learn about relationships/marriages and emotional maturity and morality, from the perspective of a former cheater. In my opinion, “surviving” infidelity is sometimes a lifelong process, and one that is sometimes a very individual endeavor.

I’m reminded of how sisoon always speaks of “changing from cheater to good partner”—that doesn’t always have to happen in conjunction with R or the current relationship. I’d like to be that “good partner” in my hopefully-someday-forever-relationship, and I think this site is helpful in learning how.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 2:30 PM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

That is your purpose in reconciliation.

For many,it is to rebuild the trust that was broken, and develop a healthy,happy great new marriage. One in which good communication is key.

Just moving forward isnt enough.

My husband thinks we have a great marriage. We moved forward. We have not reconciled.

Im not sure why this has devoled into people saying waywards shouldn't post a positive reconciliation story. I haven't seen anyone say that. The objection was that it was misleading for FF to say he had one, when his wife doesn't know.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:34 PM, December 8th (Tuesday)]

One in which good communication is key.

Just moving forward sint enough.

Very true. This is where we failed initially, and him then unilaterally choosing a completely child-centered marriage cemented it.

It is precisely why we are not “reconciled” despite assuredly “moving forward” after my cheating.