SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Unfortunately, FF is not alone in keeping his infidelity from his wife. We have a few waywards who have chosen not to tell. FF gets more attention,because he is more open about it.

Godheals - thank you for posting.

I think I understand what you are trying to express.

At first glance there does seem to be a 'you must______ (fill in the SI recommended action here)' to this forum. Some is collected wisdom, some is the prevailing views of the active posters here.

What I dislike is how those with opposing views are attacked at times. Mostly in the Wayward Forum, but it happens to BS as well (for different reasons).

Look around at how few waywards make it here. And even fewer stick around. Are we necessarily helping those by slamming them from the get go? Sure there are those that come to try to message their BS to try to control the narrative. So. They came and maybe, just maybe, we can get them to start to see a path out of cheating. We've had these talks before on here, and will do again I am sure.

One thing I have discovered, is that I do fall into the camp that reconciliation should be the goal. I am usually in the camp of trying to encourage WS and BS to work things out. That to get there requires both parties to want it. To be willing to work at it. I see some posts from BS's on here that from the way they write you would think their WS should be like a submitted slave or underling, rather than a partner. Does not feel right to me, but does anyone call them out?

We had a recent wayward that disappeared and came back saying she was full of it before, and another one who openly admitted he was still having truth issues and needs to work on that.

I have often posted in I Can Relate: BS Questions for WS. I find that forum very helpful for me as I am reminded of where I was and where I am going, we can express some truths, maybe help a BS understand. That gives a different view a WS mind or of a path out of infidelity than what you will get on JFO.

We also now have an I can Relate for Waywards not in R - as often those that are tying to work on themselves and get out of being WS in the future do not find acceptance in the usual New Beginnings type forum.

I like to welcome the discussion. I see it as an opportunity to help. It's like my teenagers - they just tune me out when i start to drive a point too hard.

I know my views are maybe not always popular with others here, but I continue to share, I learn new view points, etc. It helps keep me moving forward. Can all BS who post say they are open minded, and working to find a path out of infidelity, or that they are being honest with their spouse as to intentions?

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 8:16 AM, December 13th (Sunday)]

I think you make a good point Godheals.

It should not be an all size fits all. All stories are different and everyone’s path is different. We are all going to be on different pages in life when it comes to this. Just because you don’t agree that don’t mean that the other person is wrong.

I'm not sure it is about right or wrong. It is however about living a life that is honest with our spouses (in this context because we are all about surviving infidelity). And while I am not at all able to judge the character of a WS with regard to getting caught versus confessing at will, I think we can all agree that there are precepts of decency and honesty around which we all strive to achieve. With such horrific trauma associated with this subject, I imagine as MRC states that we often engage in behaviors that we believe bely our ideal selves (that's BS and WS alike). They key is seeing it and admitting it so that one can change it.

We have been shown the rickety path to healing from infidelity by folks who have come before us. During our journey we get schooled in our way of thinking that may run counter to our own benefit in the short and long term. We are many times met with reflections of ourselves that we don't like but in time we understand the value of that mirror and can choose to face the difficult aspects of ourselves so that we can improve. Some folks however, don't make that choice.

Those who do not make that choice to reform/change in a way that is honest sometimes fight and claim others are wrong. I don't think it suits any of us to create those labels. I do however believe that it takes courage to identify areas an individual might need to address and the most courage for that individual to lean into what others see and face it for themselves.

My concern, ff, is what happens if your W DOES learn of your A?

*****

I know one size doesn't fit all, but ... my W had an A with a client, to whom she owed confidentiality. She was in IC, which was confidential.

Her IC has stated that she would have given my W a choice between coming clean with me and finding a new therapist. Her IC would have dumped her if she hadn't agreed to confess. And she would have verified with me that my W had come clean.

*****

Some of the SI Handbook is based simply on the proposition that relationships like M need to be based on honesty.. The vast majority of us who stick around accept that as an axiom, not needing proof. We are likely to be right.

But it's possible that an M needs only honesty-beginning-with-the-end-of-the-A. I hope that's the case, for you, ff. (Truly.)

For the record I do think overall telling your spouse the truth is the right thing to do. I will always be on the side of it.

But I also think when a person has been here for a while and has made it clear they have no plans to tell their spouse the truth and we have made it know time after time of what could happen and what is the right thing after a while I think we need step back. This person needs to come with terms within themselves before we can help them. Otherwise are words mean nothing.

I am sure a lot of people can relate to knowing someone who is always making wrong choices or bad choices in life and you have try to help them over and over again but nothing seems to help. But it starts with that person wanting to get help. If that person is not willing to help themselves then nothing you offer or say will mean anything.

My H and I have tried over and over with his sister who is drug user. In and out of jail and can’t pull away from it. We have offer our home and help her to start over in life and get her the right help but she kept running away from it and didn’t want it. We have come to that point we are not doing this anymore. We have stepped back and just let her be. There is nothing we can to do help unless she actually does it.

Someone had asked me if we knew a friend who was abusing their spouse we would just stop telling them if they didn’t. Knowing someone in real life you have way more choices to do something about it or offer more help to them then let’s say to a person who you don’t know and type advice online from time to time.

I just feels like a lot of people can’t relate on how hard and gut wrenching it is to actually look your spouse in the eye knowing your going to destroy their world and tell them what you did. To this day I think about that moment and even though we have happily R it still gets to me and the pain it really cased my H. Just like I will never know the feeling on what it’s really like to be cheated on therefore I will never give sound advise about that.

Yes we have all learned and we what people to learn and do better. But at the end of the day someone can’t learn and do better unless that’s what they really want. If we know that a certain person is not doing this we can’t or should not keep pounding them over the head they are a POS for not doing it.

No I don’t think there is bad advise on here. It’s all good for the most part of what I see. But people need to be willing to take that advise and apply it. And no I am not naming names here because it’s not just going to a certain person.

Again I don’t think I am better then for telling my spouse the truth. At the end of the day we cheated but it’s a way different feeling and it’s a way harder choice then for the ones who got caught.

Do I agree with the choice on not telling? No. But I have given my two cents and all the what if in the world and to me there is nothing more I can add to it until they can come to terms with it on their own. And I am not going disrespect a person just because they are not making the some choices as myself.

Hellfire

If your friend was abusing his wife,and you told him to stop,and he kept doing it,would you stop telling him he needs to stop abusing her? Would you look 5ge other way?

If it got to that point, I would call the cops.

So because someone continues to make bad decisions, we are supposed to just drop it?

People are going to continue to tell him to tell his wife,because she deserves the truth. He will continue to ignore us. We know that. We won't stop. He knows that.

I guess my question is, what do you think will be gained by constantly bringing this up to this person? Do you really think that after a protracted period of time, the person is going to listen? Don't you think its more likely that it will get to a point where the person doesn't even bother reading any of your responses because they'll automatically assume its the same old same old? Isn't it possible that it becomes counter-productive over time, especially if the intended recipient has made it abundantly clear that they're not going to follow it?

landclark

Not wanting to follow the advice doesn’t make the advice invalid though. People always have a choice to ignore advice. Doesn’t mean the advice is bad.

That's very true but conversely it also may not be right for that situation.

Unhinged

ff4152, I believe that keeping your secrets keeps you in a secret life, which is still wayward, which means you're not, in fact, out of infidelity, and most certainly have not earned the right to post a successful reconciliation story.

As I've stated publicly in another thread, I can understand why folks didn't agree with what I posted in the R thread. So I'm not really sure why you felt the need to bring it back up since its really not pertinent to this discussion. I'm curious why you felt it was appropriate to call me out publicly over this when a PM would have sufficed?

sisoon

My concern, ff, is what happens if your W DOES learn of your A?

I think about that very question all the time and I keep coming back with the same answers. Perhaps those answers will change over time which will prompt me to confess but so far they haven't

But it's possible that an M needs only honesty-beginning-with-the-end-of-the-A. I hope that's the case, for you, ff. (Truly.)

Thank you. So do I.

As I don't want to derail Godheals thread any further, I will bow out.

I just feels like a lot of people can’t relate on how hard and gut wrenching it is to actually look your spouse in the eye knowing your going to destroy their world and tell them what you did. To this day I think about that moment and even though we have happily R it still gets to me and the pain it really cased my H. Just like I will never know the feeling on what it’s really like to be cheated on therefore I will never give sound advise about that.

Yes we have all learned and we what people to learn and do better. But at the end of the day someone can’t learn and do better unless that’s what they really want. If we know that a certain person is not doing this we can’t or should not keep pounding them over the head they are a POS for not doing it.

^^^ Pure. Gold.

My husband took something sacred, when he wasn't ready for something sacred. Honest to God.

It's obvious now, years after the fact.

Maybe, quite probably, he would have been ready for it later. I mean, it's not like the sacred had no appeal to him.

And it's not like 'the sacred' was uni-dimensional. If it exists on this earth, then it has its own dimension and portion of 'earthiness.'

^^^ That's my over esoteric wall of words to own that babies and all sorts of life commitments hid behind my womanly wiles. I was sacred in and of myself, and my potential, as well. He was not ready for any of it.

BTW, no one was caught more off guard or off balance by my pregnancies than me. *I was using birth control conscientiously, consistently, responsibly, in an informed manner,* and I *still* got pregnant.

Interestingly enough, from a *weird and spooky* perspective, I managed my own birth control for *years,* from the end of high school through college, through other lovers besides Husband, and I never got pregnant. I was not pregnant when we got married.

But, insanely shortly after being married, using the same birth control, I was pregnant. Like, wow.

We both agree, it was too much, too soon.

Husband loved those babies. He did. And he did his best to care for them.

Not so sure he loved me for bringing them a season too soon. I've felt that tension for years.

I will forever believe that it contributed to his 'walk off' moment.

But hey! I wasn't telling him not to wear a condom.

That was all on him.

I was trying my best to accommodate.

Didn't work out.

I want to add to all this is that I can give advise to a person to seek help over a drug problem or any other problem but in my mind I only have so far I can go with it because I can’t relate to their problem. If I have not walked a mile in their shoes I can’t start throwing stones over there head because they are not getting it. Or bashing them as a human being because they are not listing to me. I can say all I want I don’t understand why the person can’t get help and be really mean about it because I don’t know what it’s like to have a drug problem.

I just think this should apply here also. Lots of people really don’t know what it’s like to actually tell your spouse the truth and will never have to do that. I think it can go so far on their advise on what people should do but then it needs to stop. Until you actually know then yes start throwing stones But I know and I am not going to throw stones. Because I am going to respect their choices and hope one day they will see this for themselves until then I feel like that’s all I can do.

I read this thread with interest and I just can’t get past the part where the BS catches life-threatening diseases because they didn’t know they were not in a monogamous relationships. And their WS decided to take it to their grave and become a better person but the damage was done. This is not a hypothetical- many BS’s have learned about affairs when the diseases became problematic. I lost my ability to have children due to aggressive cervical cancer from the HPV virus. I guess that kind of collateral damage is okay so long as you don’t have to have that very difficult decision. To me that is the very core of Wayward thinking- short term, what is causes me the least discomfort, and hopefully we’ll be lucky and I won’t get caught and no disease will be spread.

How can you knowingly endanger the physical health of your spouse and claim it’s ever the right thing to not tell them?

Lots of people really don’t know what it’s like to actually tell your spouse the truth and will never have to do that.

Whether you told on your own or had to tell after getting caught, there are a ton of people here who know exactly what it’s like to have to admit to their spouse that they cheated. This is an infidelity forum, after all. They’re offering advice based on what they have gone through. They DO have the experience to pull from. I also think a lot of betrayed offer advice on what they wish would have happened, and advise how damaging the lying, finding out on your own, and the resulting fallout is.

So again, I come back to if you want to ignore the advice, ignore it, but people here ARE speaking from experiences they’ve actually had. It’s not about throwing stones. We are not here to just beat down people. People who feel that way seem to be the ones who just want to play a victim, or want a pat on the back and to be told what they’re doing is no big deal. (Not talking about FF, for the record, it’s a general comment)

ETA to add:

I want to add to all this is that I can give advise to a person to seek help over a drug problem or any other problem but in my mind I only have so far I can go with it because I can’t relate to their problem.

The difference here though is that this is an infidelity forum and everybody here has gone through infidelity, either on the giving or receiving end, so people CAN relate. In your example, it would be like a drug addict going to an addict support group and acting like the people there can’t relate at all and therefore have no idea what they’re talking about.

[This message edited by landclark at 5:34 PM, December 13th (Sunday)]

what do you think will be gained by constantly bringing this up to this person?

Have you ever noticed how many waywards show up here. Having not told their spouse, and having no plans to?

If we condone you keeping your wife in the dark, if we say it's ok that you've taken her agency, then we are saying its ok to cheat and not tell the BS. That is a slap to every single BS here on SI. And every BS who is on the other side of that WS who is posting.

Don't you think its more likely that it will get to a point where the person doesn't even bother reading any of your responses because they'll automatically assume its the same old same old?

Probably. But what about the lurking WS who hasn't told his wife? Just because you choose to ignore good advice,doesn't mean they will.

especially if the intended recipient has made it abundantly clear that they're not going to follow it?

As Neanderthal said, you are not a special snowflake. New members pop up all the time, saying they have lurked for a long time before posting. They talk about how much wisdom they have gained, just by reading posts here. I would hate that anyone reading here would walk away with thinking hey, its ok to cheat, just stop and never tell your wife and all is cool.

If it got to that point, I would call the cops

Infidelty is abuse. Just not cheating doesn't mean it's stopped.

Again, I will point out that new BS show up all the time,having just found out of an affair that happened years ago. Ive never read one that said it was no big deal that their WS didn't tell them. Not once.

I also will add I find it troubling when you read remorseful FW's who say truth is best, but maybe not for every situation.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:37 PM, December 13th (Sunday)]

I think what you're grappling with is a difference between people. I absolutely agree that confessing to the BS is vital.

Whenever you hurt someone, anyone...confession is vital. It begins the healing process and there is no healing unless you confess. The reason confession is hard? Pride.

You can whitewash it all you want but that's what it comes down to. Pride.

Secrets are lies. With all due respects to godheals. I understand what you are saying and I disagree. :-)

ETA: It sounds good though doesn't it? No cookie cutter paths. No one right way. The problem with that, is that there is one right way. One best way. There are other ways, but they won't lead you to healing.

[This message edited by Maia at 4:46 PM, December 13th (Sunday)]

We try over and over again because we have empathy for those involved in this shit storm. And the empathy doesn't end because others are resistant to being honest and forthright. There are some basic human rights at stake here.

As BS's we might not have the right to tell someone to confess because we don't know what it is like to do so in the case of infidelity, but we sure have the right to explain the need for it from the other point of view. To have your agency stolen is beyond description and to know that there are those willing to continue to abuse someone in this manner means we try and try and try to help. (Bonus it helps both parties.)

I would hate that anyone reading here would walk away with thinking hey, its ok to cheat, just stop and never tell your wife and all is cool.

^^^Hellfire thank you a thousand times for saying this. I would go to the ends of the earth to help someone hurt less.

I guess my question is, what do you think will be gained by constantly bringing this up to this person? Do you really think that after a protracted period of time, the person is going to listen? Don't you think its more likely that it will get to a point where the person doesn't even bother reading any of your responses because they'll automatically assume its the same old same old? Isn't it possible that it becomes counter-productive over time, especially if the intended recipient has made it abundantly clear that they're not going to follow it?

I would have to turn that question back on its head and ask what is to be gained by not listening to the advice? What is to be gained by not listening to people’s personal experiences and reasoning for giving that advice?

If it’s counterproductive then what is to be gained by by the person unwilling to hear the advice?

But at the end of the day someone can’t learn and do better unless that’s what they really want. If we know that a certain person is not doing this we can’t or should not keep pounding them over the head they are a POS for not doing it.

First of all, I’m not sure anyone is being called a POS. If they are, that isn’t tolerated here. Period.

Second, what should the general consensus be at this point? What is the acceptable response? Ignore? Or just pretend the problem doesn’t exist? I feel like that goes against everything that we learn when healing from infidelity. So I am honestly asking what is the right response here.

We can say over and over that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. But then what?

I like those questions turned around by woez

I think too, part of it is that the victim is deprived of a voice. The clamor to repeat distegarded advice has that in mind.

The victim is deprived of their voice and as I posted earlier, deprived of basic human dignity to choose how to live and who with.

The betrayed is ignorant and treated as chattel. The wayward determines what is best for the betrayed and denies them any agency over their own life.

I know I'm guilty of repeatedly camping on the wayward telling. And part of it is my own situation.

I feel that I was enslaved to someone else desire to run my life according to a course she deemed best.

But I do not believe that any wayward that does this is really doing what is best for the betrayed.

It's selfishness. Not telling is best for them, first and foremost.

Since I was treated this way, I feel deep concern and compassion for the betrayed that I believe are being treated like a puppet.

Stealing my life, my voice and my agency is something I cannot undo. In the case of the ignorant betrayed, I wish for them that they do not need to unwind year's of lies and dysfunction.

What was done to me was cruel. It was a cruelty continued for decades. I don't like being part of such cruelty. If I was silent, I would feel like I was a party to it

I repeat myself not because I think I can sway a wayward that refuses to give the truth and free their spouse, I do it so I am not a party to it.

As I've stated publicly in another thread, I can understand why folks didn't agree with what I posted in the R thread. So I'm not really sure why you felt the need to bring it back up since its really not pertinent to this discussion. I'm curious why you felt it was appropriate to call me out publicly over this when a PM would have sufficed?

This thread began, if I understand it correctly, as a discussion about SI's "special handbook." It's a topic that comes up periodically in various forums, for various reasons, from all sorts of different members, who, for whatever reasons, take umbrage that their views are not given equal weight to that "special handbook."

SI is almost 20 years old. Our newest member is the 76,000th person to join. For nearly twenty years, tens of thousands of people have been sharing their experiences on this site. That's a lot of people over a lot of time. That's a lot of experience and a ton of accumulated wisdom.

And it works.

Your situation is not only pertinent to this thread, I suspect it was the trigger that caused godheals to start it (clearly with underlying sentiments).

I believe in the "special handbook." I've lived it. I've witnessed it's validity in more members' stories than I could possibly remember.

I mentioned you specifically because it seems to me you that believe you know better and because you put yourself out there.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 12:39 AM, December 14th (Monday)]

I will say there are other Infidelity sites that are not so one sided as SI. Most that post here are trying to reconcile marriages. I would say in the situations where I have had experience with people who have lived through an affair, one of the spouses has chosen to end it.

I have never been able to get behind the mentality that the WS should happily eat a shit sandwich for life after an affair, especially those who have done the work and have tried to save their marriages but continue to get abused, talked down to, vilified, and given a scarlet letter. I read things here that completely baffle my mind on both sides, things written by BS and WS.

To me, I don't feel like most marriages can be saved after infidelity. The damage is too great and too wide spread. Its incredibly hard to untangle from.

And I 100% agree with the statement that not all marriages should be reconciled.

I do get what you're trying to say. While folks may claim otherwise, many here think that there is only one path out of infidelity. A, B and C must happen in that order, no matter what.

wholeheartedly agree. There is, however, only one way of being honest.

Healing, reconciliation and marriage are a range of values. Honesty is binary.

And finally, in the end, it's our goals that set our behaviors. If your goal is to stay married at all costs then dishonesty about your behavior is probably, statistically, going to be better for you. My own goal (as I mentioned in my other thread which I think I should've kept here) was not to stay married but to be honest. Ymmv

the WS should happily eat a shit sandwich for life after an affair, especially those who have done the work and have tried to save their marriages but continue to get abused, talked down to, vilified, and given a scarlet letter. I read things here that completely baffle me

And this baffles me. Many times, BS have told other BS to show their WS this site, because we have amazing former waywards here, who can help them. We have former waywards we hold in high regard..Hiking..BSR..

Zugzwang..Darkness Falls (who is staying,but not reconciling)..sorrowfulmate..daddydom..WOES..Pippin..LifeDestroyer(who is divorced..Foreverlabeled( who is divorced), and several more.

Clearly we have several waywards who we don't vilify.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:21 AM, December 14th (Monday)]

Clearly we have several waywards who we don't vilify. You see what you want to see.

You edited your comment, I know you like to personally attack me and all my posts and thats ok.

I wasn't talking about anyone that posts here as a WS. Just what I have read BS post about their WS here.

I don't need a bunch of strangers to hold me in "high regard."

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 8:24 AM, December 14th (Monday)]