SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Buck: Boundaries are a double edged sword. My exBH and I had a wildly imbalanced relationship and very often that imbalance benefited him. But it fucked me up, I felt like an appliance whose job it was to serve others. I was not a whole, honest, authentic PERSON. Getting out of infidelity for me was learning to have healthy boundaries. That’s not shifting anything into my ex husband. It was my problem and my work to do.I had to learn how to say no, how to not contribute to my own unhappiness, how to not do things that made me hate myself and others. No one could fix my head but me.But that work also required for my marriage to not be what it was prior to A. I couldn’t tie my husbands shoes while he bitched about his coffee not being sugared enough and silently hate myself anymore. It’s not his fault that I ever allowed that to begin with. Now for example after a shit ton of counseling and twelve step, I’m remarried and sometimes I STILL slip into my old people pleasing go with the flow ways, and my husband asks me “what do YOU want?”.

[This message edited by Poppy704 at 7:04 PM, March 18th (Thursday)]

Poppy, I totally see that dynamic in my marriage today. I’ve been focused on the wrong stuff for far too long.

I really appreciate you posting. For some reason it struck a nerve with me and I can totally see your perspective. Thank you.

Buck: I’m really glad what it struck a chord with you and got you thinking, and even if it’s uncomfortable, maybe it will help.There’s a poster I absolutely despise on this board, BUT she drove this point home for me, my own poor boundaries made me miserable and I couldn’t expect other people to

advocate for me, I had to speak up for myself. But like I said, people who were accustomed to silent WS, may not embrace the WS that is being authentic, vulnerable and open.

Hey Buck - I just want to add something in response to what you posted. Sorry for the T/J BSR but it is related to the post.

I have said this to you before, but maybe a bit differently. I also think some of your wifes issue is shame, and remorse over what she did to you, and regret on the way it changed the course of your marriage. She lives on hopium that things will get better.

You do have a strong personality. I think it's hard for you to see a view that isn't your experience. And as a result, you do not relate at all to your wife's remorse. You still miss your last AP. You hold her as ideal above your wife to the point you do not see her. Because of the fact you haven't ended your fantasy and dealt with the truth of your thoughts, there is no way you can understand how someone can loathe what they did to their core. How much that changes the hindsight on the affair. I think you project your experience onto hers and that started with your first affair. Just some food for thought, and it's meant to help.

With that said, I don't think you are much different than a lot of BS's who will never understand their spouses change of mindset. Or maybe better said some will understand it and not be willing to accept it. Unfortunately, this blocks R. Maybe for a good purpose since some marriages should end in divorce. If you do not do something about YOU, then that's what you are choosing - a long torturous road to divorce. It's not too late to change your path if that's what you decide you want, but these resentments and feelings that you have were only amplified by your own enjoyment of the affairs. They have existed for so long they have smothered the love out of your relationship.

I am interested in how the conversation went if you want to post it or share it somewhere.

I don't think it's a threadjack at all. I wrote the OP with a narrow focus, but I love that members are taking the general theme of it in directions that are helpful for them.

Personally, pre-A marital issues didn't just become secondary, they became completely and utterly irrelevant to me. Infidelity is a deal-breaker and that closely held tenet kicked into high gear upon discovery. Moral high ground didn't factor into it. I will not be married to a cheater.

If you're a newly arrived WS hoping to reconcile with your BS, I highly recommend forgetting about all of your pre-A marital issues for the foreseeable future.

I think the source of a great many marital issues and infidelity are, generally, one in the same for most wayward spouses. My FWW has (life's work) powerful CoD tendencies and fears of abandonment (foo shit, adopted). Those tendencies and fears caused a lot of strife throughout our entire relationship and marriage. Those same issues have been tripping her up for most of her life, manifesting themselves in all sorts of ways in all sorts of areas (family, friends, school, work, etc.).

Working through the issues that lead her down Infidelity Lane also solved a few marital issues, too.

I can say the same for myself, in many ways. My own unhealthy tendencies, though not as powerful, to avoid conflict and build walls caused quite a few marital issues. Working through that has solved a few of those issues.

I cannot recall a tipping point, however, in which I consciously decided to work on pre-A marital issues. As reconciliation progressed, and we both unpacked our own shit, much of it sort of worked itself out. The process of breaking down and rebuilding personal and relationship tendencies and dynamics, however difficult, yielded the results we were both looking for (at least, on the whole).

I never denied my FWW's right to advocate for herself any more than I denied my own right to advocate for myself. However, there were certainly things that I would not accept or rug-sweep anymore. And while it may have taken me a while to understand how to establish and enforce boundaries, I also tried to ensure that those boundaries were both healthy and productive (especially with the help of SI members). So long as my wife did the same, there was no justifiable way in which to dismiss them.

That wasn't always easy, of course.

The issue I referred to in the OP was financial.

Numbers don't lie. Advocating for financial stability has little to do with relationship issues and everything to do with math. Reconciliation is one thing. Paying the mortgage is something entirely more important.

I woke up this morning wondering if I should write about what happened with Hubs and me last night, and if so, where would I put it? How would I write about it? How would I title the post?

After a few hours of thought it occurred to me that it might fit here on this thread.

I will break this down into two parts, two posts, for organization of thoughts and clarity.

Part One

We are approaching the end of Year Three post DDay2 for the same incident, which happened years ago.

As I said in my earlier post(s) on this thread, Year Three for me has been about seeing the infidelity in the context of the entirety of our relationship and its dynamics, both good and bad.

It has been extremely helpful for me and for us to address the infidelity as part of a pattern of boundary, empathy, agency and respect issues between us, rather than to set the infidelity aside as a special case because it is characterized by and included sex.

Making the infidelity less about the sex and more about the lack of boundaries, the lack of empathy, the immature self centeredness and the dynamics in our relationship made all kinds of sense to us in terms of the essence of the betrayal.

Sexual, romantic, intimate betrayal is a particular genre that is hurtful in specific ways that cut close to the bone. Hence here we all are.

But based on our experience, I now see that setting the infidelity apart as its own special, penultimate mortal sin that supplants all other complaints about the marriage, may actually do a grave disservice to the marriage and to the betrayed spouse.

If the infidelity is part of a broader pattern in the marriage, and it likely is, then discussing it in terms of the broader marriage may lead to other discoveries and epiphanies for both partners. This may ultimately help more with correcting the wayward mindset than focusing narrowly on the infidelity as the ultimate "Gotcha!"

Also, while I understand and accept that the betrayed spouse does not cause the infidelity, I think it is disingenuous for betrayed spouses to cling tenaciously to a one note, one dimensional mantra that insists that it has nothing whatsoever to do with them.

To me, that is over simplified and may actually be doing a great disservice to the betrayed spouse.

For instance:

Husband has insisted from the very beginning, both years ago when the thing occurred and most recently during our three year long 'unpacking phase' that the incident had nothing at all to do with me.

The more complete phraseology is that it had nothing to do with me or us sexually, or in relation to my appearance or desirability.

Way back when, without knowing what I was doing, I went directly into The Pick Me Dance and, as I look back, I recognize that we both went into hysterical bonding. In that this did end up being a one off incident, and Husband responded positively to The Pick Me Dance, overall and on a superficial basis, no harm no foul.

I've since realized that the subtle harm is that even if The Pick Me Dance and the hysterical bonding create no further damage, or most optimistically, if they actually help, it's a superficial 'feel good' solution at best that does not address deeper issues.

In our most recent three year interval, upon a fuller disclosure, I oscillated between "DAMNED RIGHT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME ASSHOLE!" and "OMG what if it *did* have *everything* to do with me? What if he's just *never* been that into me and I was too needy and codependent to realize it?"

What finally snapped me out of that painful emotional/psychological ping pong game was exactly putting the infidelity into the broader context of our marriage. By understanding it in terms of our broader relationship dynamic, the root issues and causes became much more apparent and made much more sense.

And guess what?

I was a part of that dynamic.

I was a contributing member.

The 'wayward thinking' that landed Husband in the occasion of sin was the exact same thought pattern, judgment call, value assigning dynamic that landed him on that trip against my better judgment and against my wishes in the first place.

The genesis of the trip, and the intent of it, and the agenda, had nothing to do with illicit activities or sex. Husband didn't leave the house looking for or anticipating opportunities. I was against that trip for valid reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the possibility of infidelity.

Husband had valid reasons for going on the trip, but he wasn't gracious or compromising about it at all. It was the classic zero sum game: he won, I lost, he got his way, with no give back or compromise with me to help me feel better about the trip or its circumstances and finances.

Every time my voice was drowned out, it reinforced my one down position.

Husband's dysfunction was/is the direct result of being raised by narcissists who never modeled respect, boundaries, agency (other than their own) or compromise. They passed their zero sum game, winner take all relationship pattern onto us.

We were in a pattern of subtle bullying dressed up as Husband Knows Best, and honestly, with very good intentions on his part, but with absolutely lousy execution.

Also, as I've noted in other posts, Husband had/has a deep seated anxiety about protecting his own agency, even at the myopic expense of mine. Obviously this too was the result of being raised by narcissists.

You know that song lyric, "I'd rather die than give you control"? Amend it slightly. "I'd rather die than give up control." Giving up control is extremely anxiety producing for Husband. Giving up control, in Husband's experience, meant giving up agency entirely, and the FOO demanded it. It is the equivalent of being UnPersoned. The FOO will tell you who you are. The FOO will tell you what you want. The FOO will tell you what you need.

I was already prone to codependency and I ended up coping with this dynamic by doubling down on the codependency: Let the Wookie win. Life just goes so much smoother when you let the Wookie win.

Of course this acts as positive reinforcement for the dynamic and for this self-centered thinking and behavior pattern. Husband is insisting that servicing his anxieties and control issues and agendas is more important than compromising with me. Besides, compromise is scary. It's the slippery slope to losing agency completely. And I'm telling him that's OK with my codependent acquiescence, just to keep life running smoothly, to keep from arguing on a molecular level about every. damned. thing.

If I had been more effective, less codependent, more protective of my own boundaries, less willing to accept 'benign bullying,' we likely would not have ended up in half of the situations in which we found ourselves.

We both agree wholeheartedly that we don't know exactly what 'effective' would have looked like other than me literally, physically walking out. His patterns and FOO imprinting were that entrenched. I did not have the self-confidence, the maturity, or the strength to do so. I was not in physical danger, this was no where near an abuse situation (and I am first person familiar with abuse, but not from Husband, so I know what abuse is.) It was definitely an imbalance of power and I stayed. I didn't do the really tough thing, leave. I stayed and tried to manage it from the position of lesser power.

This doesn't make Husband a villain.

It makes him a flawed human being who was doing the best he could with the relationship and life skill sets he'd been given. Unfortunately it took a lot of hard miles in the marriage for both of us to truly see and recognize the pile of shit skill sets with which both of us had been 'gifted.'

Husband just interjected that his avoidance issues also contributed. If there was any way that he could avoid confrontation and/or achieve validation in any other sector of his life, he happily and nearly mindlessly took advantage of my codependency to facilitate that. I was the path of least resistance.

I have pointed that out to him several times over the years. It bounced off of him like he was the monolith from "2001: A Space Odyssey." It might be true, but he saw absolutely no path to change it.

It wasn't until we damned near lost the marriage secondary to the further discovery that the import of this dynamic registered.

He doesn't want to be that person anymore. He wants to live his life, and not let life live him.

A few of you, I believe WWs, have pointed to codependency and boundary issues as contributing to your infidelity. I believe that my codependency issues complimented my husband's avoidance issues and boundary issues and allowed them to blossom into all sorts of problems over the years, including an incident of infidelity.

Focusing solely on the infidelity, and solely on my husband, would be addressing only one half of our dynamic.

Part Two will address more specifically what happened last night.

/end Part One

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 12:44 PM, March 20th (Saturday)]

Just want to thank Unhinged for his post. I've shared the same sentiment pretty much from day1.

The trauma of my WH's As has CHANGED me as a person (and the trauma/ neurology/ psychiatry folks would say on a cellular/genetic level). Healing from relational betrayal PTSD REQUIRES some heavy lifting, and that heavy lifting comes with benefits - with positive changes. My hope has always been that my WH would do some heavy lifting of his own, that would prompt similar change and benefits. And my sense has always been that as we healed & grew, we would decide if the "new" people we've become are people we'd still like to be married to. Unfortunately, my WH has not done much lifting at all, let alone of the "heavy" variety. Which is why we are not in R.

And it's also why from my view, bringing up whatever old resentments existed would not be that productive. IOW, I - like Unhinged - refuse to be married to a cheater, which includes a spouse that may be white knuckling by not actively engaging in infidelity, but still VERY much a wayward in all other ways. So I saw no reason to delve into that unless and until my WH had some solid heavy lifting - to get a glimpse of the person he may become as he repaired and healed the things that got us to a dday. It may be that even MrGMC version2 would not be someone I wanted to be M to - or that MrGMC v.2 didn't want to be M to GMC version2. Or it may be that we did want to be M and one - or both- still had needs/resentments that must be addressed - but they would be addressed by people that had some healing under their belts - by people who were able to take in those issues and respond with compassion and empathy and respect. Or, it may be that GMC and MrGMC v.2 had let the past resentments become accepted and let go. But trying to deal with old resentment before any healing? I was really not interested in rehashing the bad plumbing over the still smoldering ashes of a house that had burned to the ground. Unilaterally. By my WH.

And I have to say that if what MarriageRedux just posted works for her and her M, that's wonderful and I'm happy for her and her WH. However, I must respectfully - and wholeheartedly - disagree with many (or perhaps all) of the premises espoused, and hope that any new BS or WS will not latch on to those ideas to the exclusion of other perspectives, particularly those healing from As that included emotional components or transpired over any significant length of time.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:47 PM, March 19th, 2021 (Friday)]

I’ve been pondering on this thread. We are coming up on 11 years, unbelievably. It has been a gut wrenching journey, however I’m grateful for the outcome.

I will speak only for myself when I say that our healing has been anything but linear. I get the idea of WS heals WS, BS heals BS, and together heal the marriage, but this was not quite our experience. I definitely had to heal myself, and HT definitely had to heal himself, however there was quite a bit of us helping to heal the other as well. In addition, we had the added complication of HT’s alcoholism to contend with. A fair enough thing that couldn’t wait for me to get my own head out of my ass.

We made a deal early on that we could discuss his drinking, as it had an enormous impact on me as a separate discussion of my A. IOW, I could not say the words “because you drank I...” There was to be no blameshifting in regards to his drinking. It was complicated because how I was feeling was impacted by his drinking. I had every right to feel the things I did about his drinking. He never denied me that. What I couldn’t do was say that I made the decisions I did about it. I made some pretty horrible decisions that my poor husband never deserved and I turned into a pretty shitty wife all on my own.

In some ways, I think this separation really helped me own my own behaviors. Every time I had a temptation to blame him for what I did, I learned to pull back and try to see it through a different lens. The more I understood myself, the more empathy I gained, the more vulnerable I became, the more authentic I was, the more we were able to discuss dynamics in our relationship and what we wanted moving forward. Discussing some of those unhealthy dynamics was necessary in order to change them.

As a WS I had managed to do a lot of rewriting of our history. As we learned to trust each other with deep conversations, we were able to use those grievances/resentments in order to set the record straight. Me discussing what my resentments were allowed him to show me that some were manufactured.

I think it will have a lot to do with how your premarital issues are presented. There is a big difference if I were to go to HT and tell him in huffy tone what I am not getting out of the M, than if we are sitting down and I ask him for his perspective regarding an issue I am having. One is asking for a fight and the other is asking for communication.

All of this to say, I don’t think there is a specific tipping point. It’s different for everyone. I do think it has a lot to do with where the WS is in regards to to healing and what exactly the premarital issues are. Some issues can not wait to be discussed. That being said, those issues need to be kept separate from discussions of the A.

Phrases like--

*WS has been given the *gift* of reconciliation

*BS is the *prize*

*WS is *broken*

*WS has *no rights*

*NO MC before IC (WS has to own their shit)

^ALL of the above just rubs me the wrong way.

Most marriages, and the people in them, are NOT black/white and/or good/bad. There are shades of grey.

Attempting to determine the appropriate, or best time, to discuss marriage inequality following the discovery of an affair likely varies from couple to couple. However, after a few months, I would think most individuals (with a general awareness of self) would be able to take an honest inventory of self and decide for themselves if they need to invest in some self-improvement to benefit the marriage (regardless of BS/WS label).

Honestly, if you feel in your gut that you fell short (as either BS or WS)-- what's the harm in admitting that you could do better in the marriage IF reconciliation is the goal?

Moreover, If reconciliation is the goal, why not pursue MC from the start? Why is it generally a NO-NO here on this forum? Why do so many say things like, "total waste of time to do MC until your WS owns their shit and commits to IC" ?? ... that has always stumped me.

H & I did MC from the get-go. NO individual counseling. We committed to each other pretty much from the start, and renewed our wedding vows within 2mo from d-day. We took a blind leap of faith and decided to recommit as a TEAM (for our kids, for our future, for our health, for our finances, for our faith, etc. etc. etc.). There was none of this "your WS has to do XYZ" before recovery can happen. There was also no mass destruction or humiliation-- no scarlet letter around my neck, no public flogging, no lie detector test.

AND, We did NOT rugsweep-- we worked on our combined issues with a licensed therapist in counseling, and also met a couple times with our pastor. BOTH were extremely helpful to BOTH of us in helping us gain perspective in ways we could improve our marriage and work on ourselves.

Sometimes, I truly think we can make recovery more complicated than it needs to be.

edited to add: NOT saying it's easy... but it's OK if we take different paths in our recoveries (and make our own decisions based on what we know about ourselves and the person we are married to).

[This message edited by sundance at 8:02 PM, March 19th (Friday)]

Part Two

About Last Night...

First a bit of background, to give context.

Almost three years ago, the FOO was facing yet another existential crisis.

The In Laws' immaculate parenting and impeccable family image were under assault by what? what? yet another divorce in the family OMG.

Another sibling was having yet another divorce, not the first.

I actually have empathy for the siblings and for the in laws: divorce is hell regardless of 'fault.' I'd much rather see people succeed than fail. And even if the divorce comes with much needed life lessons (and even if those lessons are about protecting and valuing oneself) I believe there is inevitable damage. Does anyone come out of a marriage ending in divorce with a net positive? Probably, but I believe it's rare.

In short, I don't wish divorce upon anyone.

And Husband's parents, poor things, keep getting feedback too late, from situations in which they now have little to no control.

It's got to be a special level of hell.

At any rate, Husband and I actually had high hopes that this sibling had gotten on top of issues. This coupling seemed made in heaven, truly, these two people seemed perfect for each other. This marriage looked like it was going to stick. We had sincere hopes of these two riding off into a happy sunset together.

We were shocked to hear of the separation and imminent divorce.

We wondered why, but given some FOO dynamics and a strong tendency toward (nay, a clearly demonstrated preference for) triangulation and a very clear tendency toward DARVO, we've learned not to broach sensitive subjects. That's a swamp full of alligators and quicksand. If someone approaches us with 'the story' we'll listen sympathetically, nod understandingly, and otherwise STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT.

Eventually an amorphous, ambiguous story came out with lots of allegations of 'not a nice person!' and 'selfish!' and some really vague references to the possibility of an infidelity that 'might' have happened, but nothing remotely concrete.

OK folks, here we are on SI, and I'm telling you, I would not have put myself or my spouse or any other person, frankly, through a DIVORCE over what we heard. "He probably wanted to cheat!" I mean, I get it, where there's smoke, there's fire, but I would not have gotten DIVORCED over THAT. Phone search? VAR? PI? Fucking POLYGRAPH? Counseling? Bank records? Metaphorical ass kicking? Check check check.

Straight to divorce?

WTH?

I've probably wanted to throat punch more than one person in my life (fortunately not very often) but I haven't done it. Not even once. (YES I WANT A TROPHY FOR THAT, LOL.)

Throwing me in jail because I probably wanted to throat punch a bitch is a bit premature and over the top, IMHO. Throwing me and you both in jail over it is way out, if you get my point.

So *that* revelation left us with more questions than answers but per above, we know better than to step into the swamp.

Anyway, Hubs and I were in the kitchen one Saturday morning about three years ago, just kind of randomly speculating about it.

Both of us were parsing out what we thought we knew about these two people and this situation, and trying to make sense of it.

Again, we are on SI, so I know, I know, but,

both of us were all,

"Dude's not a player."

We know that being 'a player' is not a prerequisite for cheating. I mean, Hubs is not a player, but don't tell him I said so, LOL, so we get it.

But just outright trolling for an affair?

Seemed hardcore out of character for this guy.

We both wondered if it was an internet thing. We speculated about porn. Knowing the female component of the FOO, porn would get some serious side eye. Not porn addiction, not a serious cam girl habit, just, porn. As in, "YOU GAZED UPON ANOTHER WOMAN'S NAKEDNESS AND YOU LIKED IT? ADULTERER!"

I don't know that's what happened, but I could see that scenario.

I was still having a very difficult time with going straight to DIVORCE over it. My mind kept casting about, looking for something, more? but whatever it was, it appeared to be at the same time so insignificant that this adult sibling knew better than to shop it around as validation or vindication.

Whatever it was, apparently it was deemed too weak to pass muster.

This person has a life long penchant for 'tattling' so trust me, if there was dirt that reinforced her position she would have purchased newsprint, billboard space and air time.

Without stopping to consider it, I pondered out loud if the dude had somehow gotten himself in a similar position to Husband's situation years earlier.

Remember, this was prior to DDay2. At that moment I had only Husband's initial, much sanitized, much abbreviated disclosure years earlier.

MR59: "I wonder if Dude had an incident similar to the thing that happened to you in That Other City years ago?"

Hubs: *silence*

Hubs: "I don't know. Could be. Seems unlikely. Not like him. But, not like me, either. I still feel guilt and shame about that."

MR59: *referencing initial disclosure* "You still feel guilt and shame about that little thing?"

Hubs: *looks stunned, face drops, turns pale*

Hubs: "That wasn't 'a little thing.'"

MR59: ????????

Hubs: *stunned expression on face* "She was with me for a while..."

MR59: "Wait, WHAT???"

Hubs: "She was with me for a while... ..."

MR59: "WHAT DOES 'WITH YOU' MEAN??? WHAT IS 'A WHILE'??? HOW LONG IS 'A WHILE'??? WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THERE???"

Hubs: *panic, back pedaling*

Cue trickle truth and three years of hell. =( =(

So that's the back story.

We went through a full six months of hardcore trickle truth after that, with Husband desperately scrambling to get back to an abbreviated, sanitized narrative that had stood unquestioned for years.

And then, gradually, into disclosure, and then into sorting out the why's and what does this really mean, then putting it into context, and now, finally, we seem to be firmly in recovery.

SO ABOUT LAST NIGHT: (I know, finally, right?)

I was telling Husband that I was really glad that we'd pivoted into putting the incident of infidelity into the broader context of the marriage. Doing so had allowed me to shift my focus from the sexual aspect of it and toward the underlying issues. Addressing the underlying issues made me more confident in our relationship and made me feel safe and happy.

I stated that putting the infidelity in the context of our underlying issues helped me to 'right size' it.

My husband, being a very literal person, replied with:

"Yeah, it wasn't an affair or even a one night stand."

Now, two things:

1. That wasn't what I meant in terms of 'right sizing' it. I wasn't referencing 'the degree of infidelity.' And, in fact, most of us here on SI very much disdain 'the degree of infidelity' discussions. It's like arguing about being 'a little bit of a felon.' Right?

and

2. I can hear THE ENTIRE SI COMMUNITY screaming, "WAYWARD THINKING! LOOK, THERE IT IS!"

and I get it.

Here's what:

Year One, especially early Year One, I would have been, befuddled. Fogged. Negotiating this situation through codependency.

No, it wasn't an affair.

No where close.

I could easily agree with that statement.

ONS?

Even back then I was a bit fuzzy on that assertion.

What constitutes a ONS?

In Husband's mind, it's not a ONS unless penis makes contact with orifice.

And, I guess, unless said orifice is not being paid.

And, I guess, only if pick up lines are used and non-professional seduction is involved.

A ONS for Hubs evidently involves some specific intent and parameters. 'Accidentally' falling under the aggressive and permissive wiles of an adult entertainer does not qualify. ONS? Think more of an easy drunken pick up at last call in a bar. Or something.

That probably needs further discussion, honestly not because I feel in imminent danger from it, but because, discussion. Because we're here now.

Anyway, my point is:

At One Year I would have fielded this statement with befuddlement and fog and codependency. In fact, that happened. This was a position he,and we, took often in that year. It was most often accompanied by, imbedded in trickle truth. "Not gonna cop to what actually happened, but I'll tell you what I believe *didn't* happen."

At Two Years, Husband's eyebrows and eyelashes would have been burned completely off, what remains of his hair would have been singed, and we wouldn't have gotten any further than that evening's "EAT SHIT AND DIE!" proclamation

out of me.

Year Three:

Year Three brings a strange acceptance and with it, a strange calm.

It is what it is.

And I see clearly what it is, and what it isn't.

For me, at this moment, it's not about which of his body parts intersected which of her body parts.

The idea that his dick in fact *did not* trip over his left knee and fall into her vagina is not my focus.

In fact, it occurred to me last night that the essence of, the definition of, the very degree of the betrayal lies in his guilt.

If it was 'only this' or 'only that' or 'not this' or 'not that,'

Then why in fact does he feel so much "guilt and shame"? Why the struggles with trickle truth?

And that, as it turns out, is a *really pivotal question.*

And that was the question I asked last night.

I've known Husband since he was 17 years old. I know this to be true:

When Husband finds himself in what he perceives to be 'the wrong side' of any issue, he immediately runs to legalistic definitions as defense.

Ergo describing what happened in terms of what didn't happen.

From when this thing happened years ago up through DDay2 and all through trickle truth, he clung tenaciously to his idea that this wasn't really cheating because he didn't stick his dick in an orifice. No shit.

He's not there now, but reflexively, he will go back to that place: defining it by what it was not.

My response last night?

Honestly?

Humor.

Putting this particular shit show in the larger context of larger dynamics in our marriage took away a lot of its power. It diffused its toxicity and its specific hurt.

"You know, Husband, you are right. It certainly wasn't an affair by any definition. ONS? for moving on's sake, for tonight, I'll give you that. But you know what else it wasn't? It wasn't fettuccini alfredo. It wasn't a Buick. It wasn't a penguin. It wasn't an all expenses paid cruise. It wasn't an electric bill. It wasn't a can opener. It wasn't a physics equation. It wasn't a three dollar bill. It wasn't a handshake.

Instead of talking about what it wasn't, let's talk about what it was- only let's not talk about it in legalistic terms.

Let's talk about *why it makes you feel guilt and shame.*

If it wasn't all that...

Why the guilt and shame?

What exactly do you feel guilty about?

Why are you ashamed???"

And, here we go.

I got what was the most honest, genuine, believable, authentic, 'we can work with this' rendition of 'events' last night.

Not,

"Well then this body part intersected with that body part in this way for approximately this many minutes I don't know it's all kind of a fog and then this other woman showed up and this sex act was offered BUT I DIDN'T ACCEPT IT but the physical contact stopped after that, wait, no it didn't, it kept on, but I was beginning to come out of the fog and I can't remember what exactly happened next and then we were out on the sidewalk walking back to the hotel..."

(I will say again that I really do not believe that my husband had penetrative sex that night, for what that's worth. I get it. My therapist actually asked the same question. "Are you sure your husband didn't have sex in that place that night?" Didactically? No, I will never be sure on that level. I wasn't there. I'll never know. But I *do* know my husband as a person, apart from me. I know where his personal, intimate, physical/sexual limits are, and I'm as sure as any person can be, that it didn't happen.)

But the point is,

My husband has wrapped his head around the fact that he had sex that night.

It wasn't penetrative sex (if it wasn't penetrative sex.)

It wasn't an affair.

ONS? debatable, but really, I do not care about the moniker.

But, whatever it was, and I wasn't there, I do not know first person what happened, and I am by constitution and professional training, an evidence based person,

By what I can determine,

It was sex.

And he knew that.

He knew it when it started.

He engaged.

He knew it while it was happening.

He was into it, so he facilitated it.

He continued it.

He continued it until the escalation was stark enough that it nudged him out of his comfort zone.

Anyway.

Last night, my husband was more honest than he's ever been about it.

In terms of the betrayal, the logistics of which body part touched which other body parts are almost immaterial.

The legalistic definitions are immaterial. It's infidelity only if this touches that.

Not so much.

No, it's infidelity if one's mind crosses the boundary from possibility and desire, to intent and manifestation. It honestly does not matter, at a certain level, how far over the line of intent and manifestation one steps, with obvious caveats: std's, pregnancies, personal tolerance, etc.

It's like negotiating how much of a felon one might be.

For me anyway, cheating happens between one's ears and in one's heart. It happens at the intersection of arousal, desire, intent and manifestation. Specifically, it happens at the intersection of intent and manifestation.

However it was manifested, Husband feels guilty and Husband feels shame and Husband understands that cheating happened when he stepped over the line from desire to intent to actual action and engagement. Degree of manifestation falls into legalistic definitions. Irrelevant.

The defining characteristic is not 'what body part intersected with what body part.'

IMHO, it's not even arousal. That's a whole other post. Arousal is, essential. The very existence of, the very state of being 'aroused' is a joyous celebration of one's life essence. I surely to not want to own anyone else's arousal. Not only do I not want to own it, I do not want to be totally responsible for it. OMG are you kidding?

The pivot point is not arousal or desire. It's somewhere between intent and manifestation- and my husband was *very clearly there,* regardless of which body parts intersected with which body parts as a result.

Sex was intended, sex happened- even if a dick didn't fall into a hole. Regardless of physical contact or not, sex happened.

Sex happens between the ears.

Body parts are negotiable.

Partners of persons with internet sexual fixations will attest.

And that's my own 'legalistic definition.'

But here is where I come back around:

OK that happened.

All of that, happened.

What does it *mean*?

What it means is most important in the context of our entire relationship.

Not in terms of what body parts were involved with other body parts.

But rather, how do *all* of our relationship dynamics play into it?

In the best ways...

The incident itself was/is irrelevant.

What is relevant is intent.

And related, what is relevant is relationship dynamic.

What are you each trying to extract out of each other, and why?

And what are you offering to your partner, and why?

Why are any of us even here?

ETA: This whole Part Two word salad is a too long way of saying that until my brain slowed down enough to hear *what* Husband was saying, I was not going to be able to frame my own response clearly enough to get to the essence of the thing.

And for what was IMHO honestly a single incident that amounted to literally nothing, that took three years.

Can't imagine what it would be like to sort through an affair, or a sex addiction, or a massage parlor habit, etc.

In some ways, Hubs is right in defining it by what it wasn't.

I had to get to a "tipping point' of my own before I could hear that, fairly, and not hear it as excuse making.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 6:36 AM, March 20th (Saturday)]

sundance, years of being an active member, reading countless posts, following countless stories, learning from members, witnessing (however virtually) triumphs and heartbreaks, has taught me that all of those things which "rub you the wrong way" are incontrovertibly solid wisdom from start to finish.

Unhinged: That’s exactly what cult members are told when they resist.

The old saying here “take what helps and leave what doesn’t” is a lot healthier.

In my mind, it was absolutely essential to separate out the A from anything that was happening prior to it in the M. If I was a shitty wife/partner, then I made it clear I would discuss how to be a better partner but in no way was I willing to accept it as justification for his infidelity particularly because I pointed out to him the way I felt and yet I didn't have an A. That logic helped him understand but didn't stop him from coming back to blaming me for his indiscretions. That caused me to hold firm even more and cut off any discussions relating the two.

In the end, it was so much less important to rehash the failings of each of us in our M pre A. Once we reformed ourselves from the trauma of the A, mostly independent of each other, we could calmly go back and talk about our own feelings when certain relationship situations arose rather than blaming the other for not being what the other wanted. That shift in the way we relate was really difficult and is certainly the basis of the new M.

Prior to our ability to relate differently in our relationship (years in the healing/making) we were in a infinity loop - constantly triggering each other's trauma making reconciliation seem highly unlikely. Once we broke that loop life changed dramatically. Now pre-A M doesn't matter. It isn't anything we can change. The A absolutely broke the M we had so going back was futile for the most part because we aren't even close to the same people. We work hard on expressing our own stuff, how we react, what we feel when, and how we can help ourselves and the other not feel that way in the future.

It's a really precarious road to travel but once the individual healing happens possibilities for attunement appear and make for healthier relations.

And I have to say that if what MarriageRedux just posted works for her and her M, that's wonderful and I'm happy for her and her WH. However, I must respectfully - and wholeheartedly - disagree with many (or perhaps all) of the premises espoused, and hope that any new BS or WS will not latch on to those ideas to the exclusion of other perspectives, particularly those healing from As that included emotional components or transpired over any significant length of time.

Nothing that I posted on this thread, nor anywhere on SI, nor anything I may post in the future, is to be construed as a treatment plan for you or for anyone.

I do not have your answers nor anyone else's answers. I do not know your circumstances nor your spouse nor your life.

I am merely relating my/our experience.

In fact, much of what I have related here speaks to our damage and our mistakes. If anything, it can be seen as a cautionary tale.

The old saying here “take what helps and leave what doesn’t” is a lot healthier.

Agreed.

The old saying here “take what helps and leave what doesn’t” is a lot healthier.

+1.

That’s exactly what cult members are told when they resist.

How many cults have you joined? I've never joined one, so I can't honestly speak from experience. I'm pretty sure there's nothing cultish about SI.

The old saying here “take what helps and leave what doesn’t” is a lot healthier.

This adage, I believe, refers to what individual members post in their replies to one another. For a myriad of reasons, some posts will be more helpful than others, some will resonate more than others, some will be more insightful than others, and so on and so forth.

Wisdom, I believe, is something different. By definition, at least in part, wisdom is what works and what doesn't. The quest for knowledge and wisdom and is why have churches and universities, institutions and associations. It's the very reason why SI exists, to share the wisdom.

Trust the process. It works.

I think there are two issues here. One is what the BS and the WS are entitled to expect from each other in the aftermath of infidelity. On this, I mostly agree with Unhinged (though I do stop short of "the WS has no rights"). I believe that cheating crushes the BS in ways that throw the balance of the marriage out of whack, and a lot of healing needs to happen before there's even a possibility of righting the ship. But the other question -- and this is the one I was really asking about -- is how to evaluate that we've achieved what we should expect of ourselves.

One of the most damaging aspects of infidelity is the fear that we can't trust our own judgment. I think this is true on both sides. The BS has to come to terms not only with betrayal by someone they loved, but also with their own failure to perceive the danger posed by someone they thought they intimately knew. I use the word "failure" carefully here, because I don't mean it as a criticism of anyone else. I'm trying to describe how it felt to me, as a BS, to have been blindsided by my own lack of insight. I was dumbstruck that I could have been so wrong about my WH, and I kicked myself for ignoring the small hints that I was either too overconfident or too frightened to pick up.

As a madhatter, I've seen the view from both sides, and it's similar in some ways I didn't initially grasp. When I ask about when other WS feel ready to assert themselves in the marriage again, I'm not talking about impatiently watching the clock until we're allowed out of the penalty box. Nor am I interested in rehashing old offenses that aren't relevant in the present. I'm really talking about surviving self-doubt. As a WS in recovery, I'm intimidated by the confidence I had in myself as a cheater. I honestly thought that my twisted self-justifications were legitimate and authentic. How do waywards know when our own voices are healthy again? What if the question isn't "again," but "for the first time ever?"

I appreciate why BS might feel some kind of way about this entire topic. I have to admit, sundance, that I tensed up at your post. Just as I struggle with self-trust in the aftermath of infidelity, I'm married to a BH who was far too hard on himself. He internalized the narrative that he should be able to just get over it. My infidelity was a very long time ago, when we were teenagers, and even some BS here opined that it was different because I was young and still figuring life out. My BH absolutely blamed himself for "making R more complicated than it needed to be." That self-doubt prevented him from holding my feet to the fire in ways that would have been beneficial to both of us.

It wasn't until we read "The Body Keeps the Score" that my BH accepted that his brain had been altered by trauma. His symptoms matched a diagnosis of PTSD. Any opinion on whether that reaction was "justified" is scientifically irrelevant, and IMO it's morally irrelevant, too. He made a big leap forward when he let go of self-blame.

I also think there's potential for an entire separate thread on the difficulty of applying universal advice to relationships in different stages of recovery. Nuance is elusive because so many people arrive here believing that they're an exception. "I'm not like that." "My S isn't like that." "The AP isn't like that." Exceptions to the rule are far, far less common than claims of exceptionalism. However, it's arguable that we take so many different paths out of infidelity that the one-size-fits-all approach can have diminishing relevance over time.

Church doctrine, or “wisdom,” had the earth at the center of the universe.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 5:00 PM, March 20th (Saturday)]