SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We're still a work in progress, but we have an increasing number of moments that are genuinely and intimately happy. Trust is rebuilding. After reading the comments that WS are often delusional about how well things are going, I checked in with my H. He says he feels the same way I do. We both believe we'll make it all the way back.

It's awkward to talk about R in a room full of suffering people. It's taking hard work from both of us and a great deal of luck. We know we're fortunate to even have a chance. Many people give it their all but don't get reciprocity from their spouse. Some have a partner who's all in but realize that they themselves aren't wired for R. Success feels fragile. What if it's only temporary? What if I jinx it? What if I come across as an arrogant asshole in claiming to be one of the happy few? It sounds dismissive to say that anyone can do what we're doing; it sounds offensive to say that not everyone can do what we're doing.

I think success is rare, but then, I think truly happy long term relationships are unusual overall. That's why infidelity is so gutting. If you had it once, or believed you did, it's fucking tragic when the WS throws it away.

My experience with R seems very similar to numb&dumb's. I'm happily M because of the work my W & I did. Making our M better was a stretch goal, but I had little interest in staying together unless we aimed for a better M.

I believe it's possible bc there are folks here on SI who say their M is "better" or "stronger" or some other such thing as it was pre-A.

I'm one of them.

And I believe EVERY one of those people would say it takes a TON of HARD effing WORK.

Absolutely - but the work gets easier as one progresses, and the payoff is pretty pleasant.

IMO, none of the "work" after dday, for the WS or BS, is for the weak or faint of heart. You gotta be strong as effing nails to heal from this shit.

Here's the thing: IMO, virtually all of us have the necessary strength, although we may not know it. I think we're all stronger than we think.

To R, BS heals BS. WS heals WS. Together they build/rebuild/heal/create the M they both want.

I, too, recommend that you work on yourself. Change yourself from betrayer to good partner. If you do that, you'll benefit whether you D or R. If you do the work and D, you'll thrive whether you're alone with yourself or with a new partner.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:57 PM, April 30th (Friday)]

No I posted this because I am the WS and I betrayed my husband. He tells me that the survival rate for a marriage after an affair doesn't ever work out. He says if it does it's only the WS is who is happy not the BS. I have read that if both parties put in the work that marriage can survive. I know there is no guarantees. I just was curious. My husband is a negative person in general and with my affair it has been difficult to reconcile or get any feedback on how we can survive this. I know things will never be the same or I killed my marriage. I know that I am willing to put in the work, just I'm not sure about my husband because my actions have shown him that I didn't care or have respect for him/my marriage.

My husband also tells me that no amount of work will change that I am a cheater. When I say I am working on being a safe partner he tells me I am selfish for worrying about myself. I know he has to heal on his own and I have to be there in any way he needs me to be. He also tells me that no matter what I do he will not change his mind about me. So when I tell him if that's how he feels and if he feels it's best we divorce. He is upset that I am giving up. I am not and I am just going by his lead. I have no say on what holds for our marriage. It's on my husband to decide if he can forgive me one day and decide to reconcile with me

Patty21, your husband is overly negative. Even though there is a betrayed and a betrayer, it takes both to R. Yeah, it's not right he been placed in the position he's in, but if he wants to R and regain the marriage, he has to get on board.

Patty21,

I feel for you.

My BW was only willing to go towards R as she was seeing that I was making the effort. She didn't want promises. She was looking for actions.

Your BH is hurting. But he is talking to you and he is there still. Take it for what it is worth and do the work on yourself for now. Be present, be honest and show him you are making the effort to change.

Look up the first pinned post on the Wayward Side. It may offer some suggestions for you in the days ahead.

He has openly admitted he has been horribly abusive to you prior to the affair. He also admits he is still abusing you, and he's not really doing much to change that. He excuses it away as being hurt by your affair.

I think a betrayed spouse's anger, rage, etc is completely normal after dday. However, he was horrible to you throughout much of your two year marriage. This is not a result of the affair. It's been present all along. Now he has an excuse.

See...that's what abusers do. They find excuses to blame their victim for abusing them.

While he has every reason to be angry..mad as Hell..he doesn't have the right to abuse you.

He is not a safe partner. He admits that.

I think it would be healthy for the two of you to have some separation, until he works on not being abusive and you work on yourself.

I think giving you any advice that tells you to hang in there,and work on the marriage, when your spouse is being cruel to you,is the wrong thing to do. No one should be advising you to stay with an abuser.

I recently read a book on infidelity and the statistics given in it were that 40% of marriages deal with infidelity. Of those marriages just over 50% survive. So I guess roughly half. I think that gets to your question at least somewhat. 25% men and 15% women are involved.

For years I was firmly in the camp that a marriage could never be better after an affair. That was my experience. We had up until her affair a really strong one. Her cheating was not due to marriage issues, but more of a mid life crisis. After her affair it frankly sucked. I waited 5 years to pull the plug, but take accountability that even though she tried everything, i did nothing.

But I have been convinced by posters here that they can be better. I think in most cases there were marriage issues that contributed to the affair, and in success those got addressed. I do think it is rare however.

I also think the one who cheated feels better about things in a successful reconciliation. Though they have guilt over what they did, they can relish the fact they committed the most heinous thing you can do in a marriage, and their spouse loved them so much they were able to forgive. The betrayed has to live with the fact that their spouse, at least at the time of the affair, really didn’t love them. A hard pill to swallow.

I just remembered that the book "Cheating in a Nutshell" reports that about 80 percent of relationships impacted by infidelity end (usually after about 5 years after D-Day the success rate for reconciliation seems to drop off precipitously).

I'd have to look through the book's footnotes to see where the authors derived this stat, but it's well-documented and well-researched book.

For me, I would’ve never believed a marriage could be better after infidelity. It was the one thing I thought I ust could not forgive. Then it happened to me and here I am approaching 5 years out from dday with a better marriage.

Through my years of reading on SI and just on infidelity in general - I would say there are too many variables to determine if most work or fail. All I know at this point is that it takes a ton of work from both the BS and the WS and if you are both not willing to try, then it’s virtually impossible to successfully reconcile in a positive manner.

For instance, one of my closest friends is technically reconciled after WH had an EA. She has just been returning the favor with a bunch of PAs. To me, that is not her trying her hardest to reconcile or putting in the work to heal herself - she is still trying to dull the pain of her WH’s affair. The WS has to dig deep and commit to fully changing themselves and examining their whys to make themselves safe. The BS has to basically rebuild themself back up from the ashes from where their WS burned them down. Neither of these are easy tasks.

If your BS is abusing you, it’s probably for the best that you not want to reconcile. Maybe it’s a toxic cycle that you should end. Just my thoughts. Good luck.

The betrayed has to live with the fact that their spouse, at least at the time of the affair, really didn’t love them. A hard pill to swallow.

IMO, the BS needs to deeply understanding why the WS cheated, and often, the WS cheated because of a lack of proper self love. A person loves another only as well as they love them self. Self love is normally developed at an early age. DaddyDom said it:

I did not love myself and had no idea how to love others, no idea what a healthy relationship even is, because it was never modeled for me.

I believe the definition of loving another is seeing (hope) an improvement in yourself through another. The question becomes, what is improvement. A WS needs to learn the value of integrity, honesty, and commitment and how foundational these are to maintaining a healthy head. The next healthy step is growing these values through your spouse, your family, your neighbors, friends, and others, in proper style. Without step one complete, the WS is just a hot mess.

The BS needs to deeply learn (to deeply see) that their WS is no longer a hot mess, to see that their WS is not just self-controlling, to see that their WS has changed and is walking with a new set of beliefs being following naturally. Then, trust is gained. Then, moving forward becomes easier. BTW, this change does not happen overnight as re-racking your beliefs is a complex task. The BS must do similar.

When you do the hard work, i,e., when you do the deep learning and self reflection, the result is that you will change and you will benefit whether you D or R, whether you are a WS or BS.

If you do not do the work, you may find another mate that simply matches your unchanged style. If the new match is still dysfunctional, like your first match, good luck. Repeated bad relationships is not uncommon. You will externally learn from each relationship but you will only internally improve as much as you allow yourself to.

I will be the first to admit that although I did not cheat, steal, lie, etc., my personality was rough, and my WS and I were dysfunctionally matched. We were extreme opposites. Had only one of us performed the hard work and changed, we would have become mismatched. The other option, the one we took, is that we both performed the hard hard and grew towards each other and improved (a process of love). Before this, we just used each other, -job-check, spouse-check, house-check, kids-check, etc, -all very successful checks but we were still not happy. Happiness comes from within, it's not provided by others, definitely not from an AP.

Is my marriage perfect, absolutely not. Is it better, it doesn't compare, -it's just a new marriage and it contains maturer love. This is very difficult for me to explain. We are different people now. One example might be, had we divorced 13 years ago as a result of my wife's extramarital affair, i'm confident the divorce would have been difficult and bitter on both sides. If we had problems today, there would not be an affair, we would work through our issues, and if a divorce was the only solution, we would divorce amicably.

[This message edited by still-living at 3:34 AM, May 1st (Saturday)]

One of the reqs for R is that both partners want R.

Since your H does not see R as even possible, I recommend going for D now.

Your H doesn't see R happening, so I don't see how R can happen for him, and that means I don't see how R can happen for you, either.

I recommend that you continue to work on yourself to change from betrayer to good partner, but I also recommend not wasting energy on your H, unless he changes.

There's no excuse for betrayal, but not every M can be Reconciled, and some Ms should be ended.

the BS needs to deeply understanding why the WS cheated, and often, the WS cheated because of a lack of proper self love. A person loves another only as well as they love them self. Self love is normally developed at an early age.

I do agree with this. It explains part of the reason for the affair. Not sure if the lack of self love is caused by experiences or having it modeled at an early age. I do think things come up in life that can diminish self love. In my EXWW case it was clearly a mid life crisis. She was fine before that. For me, her affair was traumatic for me and was the reason I lacked in self love which damaged any hope that we could reconcile.

Bottom line however, having an affair is proof that at least at the time you did not love your spouse. Having the reason is essential to reconcile, but for others does nothing as the act still happened.

Patty,

I’m sorry, but I feel like I’m going to pour some cold water on your hopes.

There is a statistic that is thrown around here that says it take 2 to 5 years to get over your spouse cheating on you. The first big question you should ask yourself is why would he want to endure the pain, devastation, shame, embarrassment, and hardship for that long, in the HOPE that your spouse won’t cheat on you again?????

Would YOU be willing to put in the five years to reconcile with a proven cheater?

I have consistently said that marriage is like a stool in that it is built upon three supporting legs. If one of those columns or supports breaks, everything falls apart. In marriage those three are respect, love, and trust. How many of those three do you think are present in your marriage?

Let’s go through them.

Respect: do you really respect him? Did you respect him while you were cheating on him? Did you respect when you were coming up with lies to tell him so that you could meet your lover? Do you respect him NOW, at this moment when didn’t walk out the door immediately after finding out you were giving yourself to another? Be honest with yourself

Love: You may believe you love him, but do you think your

Definition of “love” is one that he shares with you? Would a person that truly loves their spouse actually share a bed with someone other than the person they vowed to FORSAKE ALL OTHERS FOR? Did you have warm loving feelings about your husband when your lover was on top of you? Were you recalling those great memories of your honeymoon when you telling him lies as you made plans to be with your lover? Would someone that truly loves him cause him such pain and devastation?

Trust: You have proven yourself to be a liar and a cheater. Although you probably believe that you would never do it again, the fact remains you are a Cheater, and I’m sorry although people here like to use the phrase “FWW”, there is no past tense for the word “Cheater”. You are a cheater and will forever be a cheater. Sorry, but you’ve earned that title. From the moment he knew you were a cheater, the odds are that he will never trust you completely ever again. Oh, there are those that might, but those are in the extreme minority.

From the moment he found out you were cheating forward, whenever you are 5 minutes late, or not where he expects you to be, he will be replaying the movies in his mind of you being with your lover, he will be wondering whose backseat or bedroom you are in at that moment. Does that sound like a good life to live?

And there are ways that he can keep a closer watch over you. You could put a tracker on your phone or car to see your location at any time, You could give him all of the passwords to all your electronic accounts, Hell, he could make you wear a chastity belt. But there are very simple ways to defeat any such measure. But think of it from his perspective; does being the warden of his spouse seem like a role that he would want to have?

I’m sorry that you are in this situation, but I feel worse for him. Please think about what is in HIS best interest. You may believe that staying in your marriage is the best thing for him, including the next 2 to 5 years as he recovers from your cheating. Staying married might be beneficial to your standard of living and reputation, But from his perspective, why would he want to stay?

If you truly respect, love, and trust him, do what is best FOR HIM! Tell him that since you know that the current marriage is dead, you would like to end it officially with a divorce. HOWEVER, also tell him that you will try your hardest to help him heal from your affair, and hope that you can date and build a new relationship from the ashes of the current one.

I hope this wasn’t too harsh. It certainly wasn’t my intention to be harsh. My goal was to give you some points to consider.

I do wish you and your husband nothing but the best, whatever that might be.

Bottom line, do what is best FOR HIM, not necessarily for you.

Good luck

[This message edited by Newlifeisgreat at 2:28 PM, May 2nd (Sunday)]

There is a statistic that is thrown around here that says it take 2 to 5 years to get over your spouse cheating on you. The first big question you should ask yourself is why would he want to endure the pain, devastation, shame, embarrassment, and hardship for that long, in the HOPE that your spouse won’t cheat on you again?????

Would YOU be willing to put in the five years to reconcile with a proven cheater?

That is a major misunderstanding of the 2-5 year rule of thumb.

It takes a lot of people, probably most, 2-5 years to recover from infidelity. Recovery is separate from R and/or D, and R is a LOT more than hoping the fWS won't cheat again.

...the fact remains you are a Cheater, and I’m sorry although people here like to use the phrase “FWW”, there is no past tense for the word “Cheater”.

Hmmm ... I guess the writer sees the world in black or white. Some of us see shades of gray and colors, too.

My bet, Nlig, is that you know, like, and respect people who have cheated in the past, but you don't realize it.

there is no past tense for the word “Cheater”

There's no past tense for the word Baby either but I'm pretty sure that although you were one once, you're not one now.

There's a lot of work a wayward needs to do on themselves,to no longer be a wayward. Just "not cheating" is only one step.

Pretty sure the only thing a baby has to do, to no longer be a baby, is breath,and grow.

He tells me that the survival rate for a marriage after an affair doesn't ever work out.

Not exactly the case, but if you read most of the literature, including Not Just Friends, it seems that when the female cheats physically the chances of reconciliation decrease. Men are more devastated and emasculated by the physical acts of sex. Most women become emotionally connected to a greater degree with OM, which explains why you do not see too many posts here about WH unable to emotionally let go ONCE THE SEX STOPS. Yet there is story after story about women pining for OM and unable to maintain NC even months and sometimes years after affair stops.

And then of course there is that word "reconciled", that has an infinite number of meanings. If you are not divorced or separated, you are in some sort of reconciliation. Your husband is the only one that can define that for himself. Our opinions of it are meaningless.

There are people reading this post who reconciled after multiple D Days, and there are people reading it who divorced after and EA. There is no factual answer to your question.

The odds are not in your favor, but only time will tell .

It takes a lot of people, probably most, 2-5 years to recover from infidelity. Recovery is separate from R and/or D, and R is a LOT more than hoping the fWS won't cheat again.

Agree with this and it needs to be stated again and again. The brain science also seems to back this up, as does the growing field of betrayal trauma.

Most betrayed spouses need at least 2 years to recover -- that is to say, regain any sense of equilibrium to feel “normal” amd not have the betrayal pre occupying them day in and day out.

I think the timeline, at least anecdotally, is probably more than two years and closer to 5.

At that point the work of reconciliation would only be beginning -- upwards of 5 years after the betrayal.

Which makes the road to reconciliation a very long one indeed.

And this probably accounts to some extent for divorce rates for infidelity increasing substantially 5 years out from betrayal. And probably also for the well known phenomenon of betrayed spouses showing up here on SI years later regretting they tried.