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Thumos, did you take the time to listen to the podcast, or are you basing said advice on so called hints

I did not listen. I read her own description of the podcast and it sounded off and odd, especially the part about being "esther perel-ed"

“Not all betrayed are husbands. Some are wives too.”

Of course, obviously. I referenced this situation in particular which deals with a betrayed husband.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:45 AM, Thursday, October 7th]

I did not listen. I read her own description of the podcast and it sounded off and odd, especially the part about being "esther perel-ed"

I think before anyone starts to discredit someone they should have more facts. The one podcast that you are referring to, had nothing to do with infidelity. Not one hint even. If you mean "off and odd" as in she would credit someone who you disagree with, then just say that.

When she mentioned being "esther perel-ed" it was in reference to Ester challenging her thought process and reframing the story she was telling herself (which a lot of Esters work revolves around the premise of the stories we tell ourselves). Brene was struggling with the discomfort of things veering off path where the pandemic was concerned. Which all of us can relate, to some extent. And how her and her husband, as most couples do, took on certain roles in their relationship and how the pandemic changed the once established patterns. That brought about the feeling of losing a sense of control. And I know I for one can relate to the uncomfortable feelings of letting go and surrendering. I personally thought that particular interview was helpful. After all it was mostly referring to the paradox of our feelings. And that can be confusing and uncomfortable to those not fully equipped to weed through it.

Anyway, I think its an absurd thing write off a profound woman like Brene based on nothing less than entertaining Ester. I've long been a standing member in the camp "take what you need and leave the rest, while not getting your feelings hurt by the rest part" Even Ester has some worthwhile nuggets here and there. I know she's not welcome in communities like this and for good reason.

However,

Those we disagree with can sometimes teach us the most.

even if its just something within you that you didn't know existed. A feeling, a thought, that you can then make sense of.

I think before anyone starts to discredit someone they should have more facts. The one podcast that you are referring to, had nothing to do with infidelity. Not one hint even. If you mean "off and odd" as in she would credit someone who you disagree with, then just say that.

That's what I meant. I don't find Esther Perel helpful in any sense. The Eurotrash accent, the affected breeziness, the vague mythopoetic statements -- it's all quite off-putting aside from her adultery apologist "journey" schtick. But this is becoming a fairly unhelpful thread jack (if y'all want to debate Perel's chumminess with cheaters, and winks and nods, and all the flowery perverse rationalizing she spews, then I think it would be great to start another thread on it). A

nd I'm turned off big-time that Brown chose to indulge her, regardless of whether it was about infidelity, considering the damage I think Perel has done on this front. Full stop. So I don't feel a need to support that by listening to it. Brown could have chosen a thousand other individuals to talk to about relationship dynamics. She just happened to pick the one who twists herself into pretzel knots using subjective language and relativism when writing or talking about one of the greatest transgressions a human can carry out against another.

Fail. Try harder, Brene.

I think, my opinion, which I'm entitled to, that the OP should focus on her betrayed husband and his needs, as opposed to getting bogged down in writers that don't really offer clear advice and skew toward finding justifications for infidelity. The best book for her to read -- as I already said -- is How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair (written by a woman) and then read and read again the post that is pegged at the top of the Wayward forum.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:10 PM, Thursday, October 7th]

But this is becoming a fairly unhelpful thread jack (if y'all want to debate Perel's chumminess with cheaters, and winks and nods, and all the flowery perverse rationalizing she spews, then I think it would be great to start another thread on it)

defensive much?

I think you have narrowed in on the wrong point. See I don't disagree with you on Perel. BUT Myself and other waywards have gained a lot from Brene Brown her work has been instrumental in our work. And I think its very unwise of you to completely dismiss her and come here to caution us based on an opinion that's based on no real facts other than she sat down with the devil one time.

While "HTHYSHFYA" is very crucial reading material, it's not the end all be all of information. When the book talks about being vulnerable with your betrayed spouse it doesn't go into details on how to be. We don't know what that looks like when it comes to this and so we need somewhere else to turn to. When the book tells you to let go of the outcome again, no real strategy in how you achieve something so difficult and foreign to anyone.

I don't think saying you're wrong is a thread jack. In fact I think its very important for OP and other waywards to know that yes, they can still count on Brene. And they should be reading her books along side other very helpful material. And I'll be the first to say Ester is not helpful material.

It takes time and a lot of work. And like with anything in life, there're hardly any guarantees.

I think it's safe to ignore the 95% of pseudo-intellectual bullshit you read online from anonymous sources - the other 5% is kinda useful but not really a replacement for real life. Find a good therapist who'll challenge you so you can create the tools you need in order to change.

Learn to communicate honestly with yourself and your husband. And, like I said, time and effort. Both vary from person to person and relationship to relationship.

Expect things to get better and expect them to get worse as well. Every relationship has ups and downs and your relationship suffered a deep wound, though not a mortal one. And, given that your husband went through a traumatic event, he'll need to figure out his path to healing.

I hope you guys make it work. But it'll probably take a few years at least before stability can be restored and things can really improve. Again, and I can't stress this enough, therapist, real world not online and Good luck!

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 9:12 PM, Thursday, October 7th]

It must be nice to live in a world where the answers to anyone else’s problems are knowable with certainty by way of anonymous, digital exchanges.

In a totally unrelated remark, I’m a pretty strong guy. When I want advice about how to get stronger, I ask guys who are actually stronger than me. I don’t put a lot of stock in the advice of people who know better than I do what would work for me even though they have never actually done it.