SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

IF YOU WANT TO BE MARRIED CREATE A MARRIAGE TOGETHER.

This isn't an option for the OP because he can't do it alone. Even right now, with his marriage dangling off the edge of a cliff, his wife just texted a pretty picture of herself in an evening gown to her "just-a-friend" at work. The marriage is over and the OP already knows it.

Divorce isn't fun or free, but it's money well spent to get away from a toxic spouse. Plenty of BS's have divorced and done just fine for themselves financially after the divorce. He'll be okay.

Did I suggest he create a marriage by himself?

In fact the "together" sort-of indicates it's a joint-venture. At the same time it only stands to logic that if she isn't willing to work on the marriage then there is no need to beat a dead horse. The main gist of my post is simply that the OP fear of the expensive divorce isn't based on the reality I read about.

Did I suggest he create a marriage by himself?

Well, you yelled the message in all caps that a marriage must be created together, which indicated that he'd better get busy working on it with his wife. I pointed out that his wife is not onboard, so that won't happen. You might have meant something else in a very roundabout way, but with a fragile and confused OP, it's usually best to be direct and clear.

Usually, men who stay in doormat marriages have low testosterone, and she is undoubtedly treating you like a doormat.

That's a very weird take. I'm a military vet who plays ice hockey and lifts weights 4 days a week. My testosterone is fine.

It's more about caring for the welfare of three daughters under 10, it's not as simple as rage-quitting on a whim.

That's a very weird take. I'm a military vet who plays ice hockey and lifts weights 4 days a week. My testosterone is fine.

I think that poster pulled that comment out of his, um, hypothalamus.

Men are becoming too feminine and willing to be disrespected by their cheating spouses. I think the problem is codependency. I think the best thread I ever read on this site was the true-life story posted by MrFibble. He is a pure example of a real Masculine Alpha-Male that doesn't take any disrespect from his now EX cheating spouse.

Bezuidenhout, You have a PM.

@sisoon you also have a PM.

Hey Hurt Halo. In the words of the great Dan Savage, DTMFA.

She sounds like a horrible human being.

I wonder why posters sometimes connect being cheated on to diminished manhood or masculinity?
My username refers to several things – mainly my constant aim at being a better – bigger – person, but also I have always been "big" as in physically strong and even physically intimidating. When I walked in on my fiancé having sex with OM I was at 6’1 and 220 with under 10% body-fat, I was in a masculine inclined job (law enforcement), ran, lifted weights, partook in a rough sport on a semi-professional level. I fixed my own cars, drank beer and was into fishing.

Had I been more male I would probably be drinking beer and chewing tobacco with Bezuidenhout while watching a game, talking about tattoos and hunting and being served greasy burgers by scantily clad wimmen.

Yet she cheated.

Maybe because what many of us say here on SI: They cheat despite what you are, not because of what you are. They cheat because of faults of their own.

Let’s all avoid thread-jacking, please. We all know these "men vs women" threads never lead to anything but disaster.

Halo, how are you holding up?

Let’s all avoid thread-jacking, please. We all know these "men vs women" threads never lead to anything but disaster.

Halo, how are you holding up?

Eh, not bad considering. I went off the other night, told her to pack her stuff and get out. I threw my wedding band in the bin. Following this, weeks of trying to hold everything together just fell apart and I broke down. I'm torn, while I am 99% certain nothign has happened with this guy PA-wise, there is emotional affection being shown which puts this very well into the realm of an EA. And that's not withstanding the people she was talking to on that app. She said to me, 'I realised I was going to him with marriage issues when I should have been coming to you. I pulled back from it around Christmas, and got overwhelmed with things and that's when it all came to a head.' I replied, 'if that was the case, why did you send him a picture of you in your ball gown on the weekend?' Silence.

I explained the 'going through her phone events in my IC session today (same MC) and he was horrified. He literally said, 'that is a lot to unpack and deal with.'

I leave for Canada for work this Saturday for 2 weeks, and while it is very poor timing, I intend to use it as a chance to think about what I want to do.

My wife actually said to me, 'whatever happens, whether we work through this or not in MC, you are a brilliant man and you will be ok.' Perhaps snapping back, 'Oh yeah? Will I? Well I suppose if we break up I can take solace while I'm working through the local Tinder selection of at least crying in my BMW' wasn't the best idea.

Not my finest hour, admittedly...

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 6:18 AM, Wednesday, June 8th]

you are a brilliant man and you will be ok

Wow. Those aren't the words of a woman who is afraid of losing her husband. "You have lots of wonderful qualities and you will be okay"? That's what the dumper says to the dumpee, not vice-versa. It sounds like she has already mentally checked out out to the extent that if you choose divorce, she's going to adjust to it very easily. She might even initiate divorce herself.

[This message edited by morningglory at 3:51 PM, Thursday, June 9th]

Agree. Your WWs response is indicative of someone who is ready to leave the marriage.

Your WW would be most happy if you allowed her to pursue her wayward activities snd keep you as well. She cheated prior and she’s cheating now. It’s who she is and who she wants to be.

She most certainly knows that she has a marriage and family at stake, yet she still wants to cheat. It’s the person she is and wants to be. How is MC going to change this? MC is supposed to help fix the marriage. There is nothing wrong with the M only her, so what’s the point.

You were here 9 years ago snd back to the same problems now. Your WW has probably had A’s in between then and now. If you force the two of you to remain together because of the kids, where will she be in 5, 10, 20 years from now?

Even if you’re able to force her hand snd stay in this M she will be unhappy and resentful, no matter what she might say. I recommend that you look into the crystal ball and look ahead and see how things will be down the road.

In the optimal case, your WW stays faithful and married to you until the kids are out of the house (however unlikely I think this is). What happens to the M when the kids are gone?

Please don’t be one of these BHs who stay because of the kids.

I am so sorry for you.

Funny thing about cheaters - they all have similar MOs lol.

While I thought we were Reconciling my H was still cheating (unbeknownst to me). His exact words to me were "if we D you would have a ton of guys after you. You are still hot and a ton of guys would want to date you".

Yup yup yup had I been smarter I would have seen it for what it was. A reason to ease his guilty conscience and all that.

Your spouse has shown you the AP still matters. And isn’t going away either. So sorry for you.

You said earlier, "she wants to save this marriage".

Correction. She wants to save what you provide in this marriage. It's lifeboat time.

you are a brilliant man and you will be ok

Yeah that's what the WS says to try and relieve their guilt when they are planning to exit. Heard much the same myself in the run up to separation. Sorry Halo.

Hurthalo

I tend to be a realist. So far, I have sensed and read some interest on your behalf to save the marriage if possible. Opinions might vary here on SI on when and if a marriage is salvageable when in fact the major determining factor is what YOU accept. What you can settle for or with.

I think CuriousObserver hits the nail on the head. Only its not as simple as that. Or maybe it is. She wants a marriage; she WANTS to be married to you. But she also wants the marriage to be based on conditions that are not the conditions you two entered your marriage in. It’s like a renegotiation of the marital contract.
That’s OK… That’s allowed… In fact, I guess all marriages change over time. Change from being a me-and-you thing into a family-thing, from a lets-have-sex-and-holidays thing into a let’s-do-a-budget-and-get-an-early-night thing. Only the changes she’s asking for are unconventional and radical. Radical enough for you to have to think: If she’s capable of these demands and has these needs is she capable of not having them met?

Technically you could accept a marriage where your wife has "friends" and posts pics of herself and "friend" on social media and stays overnight at "conferences" doing "work" … or whatever. It can be a silent acceptance or an open acceptance with everyone in the know. Definitely it’s not something the majority here would accept (me included), but fact is many couples live some form of "alternative" form of marriage.

YOU need to have a marriage within the terms YOU are happy with. There might be leeway to negotiate or make compromises, but the key factors need to be respected. If monogamy – emotional and sexual – is one of those factors for you, then there really is no way to sway that.

If you have your requirements clear, then all you can do is ask her if she can meet them. You two could then create a plan on how to work towards those requirements. You could have discussions on lesser terms. For example, the requirement for monogamy is carved in stone, but if you demanded she have no other male friends… that could be worked on based on conditions and situations.
To use a small example: I love fishing and the outdoors. I could spend my vacation sleeping in a hut or tent, eating baked beans and sausage, and going to the toilet in a hole as long as there was a lake with trout nearby. My wife – strangely – wants to have electricity and hot and cold water where she holidays. Our compromise is that I do some fishing, and we do some vacations together. She also does some things of her own – generally if I go on a fishing trip over a weekend, she might have a friend (female) come visit or go visit her family. Marriage is a lot of compromise, but the unit needs to accept them and have a common goal.

OK – there really isn’t anything new or ground-breaking in the above.
However, if it’s correct then there is a logical conclusion or deduction:

If your set-in-stone requirements aren’t met there isn’t a basis for a marriage.

There is no purpose or goal in negotiating or discussing what you need. It’s not like you would concede to her not having make friends if she was allowed to have other male lovers (but not as friends).

Arguing or discussing this is like two kids taking turns at yes, it is – no it isn’t, yes, it is – no it isn’t, yes, it is – no it isn’t…
It has no logical purpose or practical goal, and usually ends with one kid running home crying.

I find the reasons you give for why she shouldn’t divorce you poor…

- this EA has likely cost her our marriage,
- it will ultimately cost us 100s of thousands,
- her long awaited posting to that other city is likely now off the table noting custody requirements,
- our 3 daughters when they come of age are going to have some hard questions for her, and likely won't judge her favorably,
- our very comfortable combined income is now going to be reduced to her to a 1/3 to a 1/4 from her POV. And she'll likely be paying me child support if she takes the posting anyway.

I’m not sure what you goal was with these statements. I get it that you are angry and hurt, but frankly some of those statements aren’t correct, and some are non-relevant. Trying to make her stay married because that’s the financially sensible thing to do is a terrible base for a marriage.
So is divorcing as a form of revenge.

The only way this divorce will cost you 100’s of thousands is if (a) you are both total aholes on already predetermined processes and therefore ballooning your legal costs or (b) you have assets of such quantities and complexities that it makes proportional sense to have a legal team and accounting team spend that money in dividing it.

The custody arrangements have yet to be determined. Coparents have done successful coparenting over distance. She also has the option of opting out of custody.

Her future career once you divorce is of no concern to you.
Her relationship with the three daughters is something she must create herself. I can more-or-less guarantee one thing: Being happy doesn’t ensure you are a good parent but being constantly unhappy prevents you from ever being a good parent. IF her needs for a marriage are not met within what you are willing to offer, and she remains married to you… she isn’t going to be happy. Not any more than you can be happy remaining married to her if she can’t accept your requirements to a marriage.

My suggestion is this:
List what you need to remain married. Shouldn’t really be a long list but I would imagine it would include things like emotional and sexual monogamy, accountability, a joint goal…
The details on how to attain those items can be discussed, but the requirements should be clear. For example: monogamy isn’t really open for discussion and (at least) sexual monogamy is quite clear and obvious, but maybe some definition is needed for emotional.

Once that list is there then don’t wait. Tell her this is what’s needed, and if she isn’t capable of meeting the requirements then it’s regrettable but inevitable that you two stop talking marriage and start talking how best to end your marriage.
No threats about alimony, child support, wrecked careers… No fear about hundreds of thousands of millions… People divorce all the time, and the process is fair. The laws in your area will determine how things go.

Then move on. Unless and until she takes your list and shows with her words and actions that she accepts your conditions you are simply moving on along what is basically an inevitable path.

You don’t do this to save your marriage or to MAKE her stay in the marriage. That is simply an outcome that MIGHT come out of it. You are doing the above because the present situation isn’t sustainable. You need change. Whether that change is something that leads to you two establishing a new marriage on terms you both accept or if that change is a divorce… either is totally fine. Totally acceptable. As long as it isn’t what you are being offered today.

Ugh.... Hurthalo. I hate this update for you. Good for you for listening to your gut...... I'm so sorry.

It’s like a renegotiation of the marital contract.
That’s OK… That’s allowed… In fact, I guess all marriages change over time. Change from being a me-and-you thing into a family-thing, from a lets-have-sex-and-holidays thing into a let’s-do-a-budget-and-get-an-early-night thing.

It isn't valid to try to renegotiate a contact that has already been agreed to. You hire a contractor to do a certain job for x amount of money, and he decides that he isn't going to do the work but still takes the money. That's grounds for a lawsuit and/or termination of contract, which is analogous to divorce.

The standard marriage vows don't describe a specific lifestyle beyond remaining faithful, sharing possessions, and staying together until death. That allows for all of the normal changes of life (kids/no kids/more travel/less travel, etc.)

This WS has broken her vows and now wants to invalidate one of the vows: fidelity. That is not okay mid-marriage. Especially since in reality marriage vows are not merely legally contractual, but also honor vows made in the presence of God, family and community.

Saying you don't want to abide by one of the vows is akin to requesting divorce. Which is where this mess does seem headed.