SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

1. I earned it back by discovering what allowed me to do such a thing. By never wanting to be that person again. And by deliberately being transparent and honest as to begin building trust. It takes years of consistency.

2. I chose my spouse because I knew he was the better person In every way. In the light of day it was clear that I had done a lot of things that not only destroyed him but were also self destructive and not at all in my best interests.

3. I did not feel guilty about NC, though I think for a period of time I did miss the other person. I think after a while it became apparent that I just missed the way the affair made me feel, nothing to do with him as a person. I think the ap is more or less a drug to escape, I missed using drugs so to speak , not because he was someone special.

4. I did not consider the AP to be a victim of anything. To suggest that would also suggest I am the victim of something. If you okay with fire you are going to get burned, so I didn’t really feel I owed him anything.

Your wife is going to need to seek other employment if you are to reconcile. And do so willingly as she sees this as a natural consequence of her own actions.

hikingout: Thank you for your reply.

I chose my spouse because I knew he was the better person In every way

.When did you come to this understanding? And how? 
My wife claims she never had the intention to leave me for him. She never once found that idea appealing. There were times when her AP, who was also her 'twinflame', asked her to leave me, but she always argued against it. I am finding it very difficult to understand this woman who 'chose' him over me many times during her affair, but after Dday, she immediately 'chose' me. Why? What did I do to earn that 'choice'? I know this question should be directed at my wife and not at the people around here. And I am going to do just that. 

I did not consider the AP to be a victim of anything.

My wife does think her AP is a victim. She recently apologized to him for using him for her selfish needs. I don't know how to feel about it. I know he is not a victim. I just don't know why my wife doesn't see that. I wonder what that reveals about her relationship with him.

Your wife is going to need to seek other employment if you are to reconcile.

She has already quit her old job.

.When did you come to this understanding? And how?

My wife claims she never had the intention to leave me for him. She never once found that idea appealing. There were times when her AP, who was also her 'twinflame', asked her to leave me, but she always argued against it. I am finding it very difficult to understand this woman who 'chose' him over me many times during her affair, but after Dday, she immediately 'chose' me. Why? What did I do to earn that 'choice'? I know this question should be directed at my wife and not at the people around here. And I am going to do just that.

I don’t think down deep there was ever a time that I didn’t know that. The affair wasn’t about what my husband didn’t have. It was about being someone I wasn’t. It was escapism. If I had gotten a shopping addiction, a gambling addiction, or something else that produced high level of dopamine in my head, it would be more clear to a bs that the choice had nothing to do with them. I mean the reasoning or what drive it, of course it has to do with you in the sense of betrayal and ruining a marriage. I will add that he was a serial cheater and I am not, so I think he knew exactly what he was getting into.

My wife does think her AP is a victim. She recently apologized to him for using him for her selfish needs. I don't know how to feel about it. I know he is not a victim. I just don't know why my wife doesn't see that. I wonder what that reveals about her relationship with him.

I mean, I accepted the idea that the ap and I used each other in many ways. I felt more about his wife than him. But there were pangs of guilt in instigating it. I would never have apologized to him but in 12 step programs it’s common to make amends to those you have hurt with your actions. I can’t really gather anything from that. Other than no contact is highly recommended and breaking it is not a way to gain your trust.

She has already quit her old job.

If she did it in her own accordance I think that is a positive sign.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:20 PM, Thursday, February 29th]

If I had gotten a shopping addiction, a gambling addiction, or something else that produced high level of dopamine in my head, it would be more clear to a bs that the choice had nothing to do with them.

Please don't take this as a personal attack. This is a general question. See, addictions like gambling, drug abuse, etc. do hurt the spouses of the addicts, but not in the way infidelity does. So comparing infidelity with addiction seems like an attempt to simplify and undermine the betrayal. My wife also calls her affair an addiction. Addiction doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens after the first use of an addictive substance. So on the first day, there was no addiction and yet the infidelity commenced. One-time gambling, one-time drug abuse, one-time smoking, etc. isn't considered bad. But one-time or one-day infidelity is as bad as multiple-day infidelity. I can understand how one-time gambling, drug abuse, or alcohol consumption have nothing to do with the spouse. I can also understand how one-time gambling, etc., becoming an addiction has nothing to do with the spouse. Similarly, I can also see how one day of infidelity turning into multiple days of infidelity has nothing to do with the spouse. But I fail to see how that first day of infidelity had nothing to do with the spouse. Given that the people involved are adults, I am sure they know the consequences of their actions, the severity of those consequences, and how such consequences will destroy their spouses and their marriage. So, on the first day of infidelity, how can it not be about spouses, too?

12 step programs

Does this program consider AP as a victim?

[This message edited by twinflamed at 7:10 PM, Thursday, February 29th]

Twin flame, your spouse says she feels he is a victim of sorts. Out of curiosity did he know she was married??

My ap knew i was married, knew I had kids and knew what she was getting into, because she developed feelings does that make her a victim?? hell no. The only victim in all this was my BS and my children for simply the god awful way I treated them.

I really couldn't give two hoots about how my AP feels, I dont wish her harm obviously but pfft

All the luck moving forward.

Twin flame, your spouse says she feels he is a victim of sorts. Out of curiosity did he know she was married??

Yes, he knew.

Then yeah, I would struggle to see how he could be a victim and I am a massive conflict avoidance people pleaser...

I'm sure she will realise that soon enough though

Twin flame,

I don’t feel attacked. I get what you are saying.

I don’t mean the decision to cheat doesn’t affect your spouse more than these other behaviors. I mean the reason someone cheats may not have anything to do with being unhappy with the spouse. I think often it’s an unhappiness with self. And even if there are resentments they are holding about the spouse, it’s up to the ws to try and resolve that. So no reason for cheating would ever hold water. Instead, the ws must figure out why they needs to escape and how they can manage their lives better moving forward. Also by addressing the character and morality flaws they posses that allowed them to do this.

The decision to cheat comes from entitlement and selfishness. It means that I was willing to dehumanize the person I am married to in order to escape life through an unhealthy vehicle. I definitely understand it is a form of abuse of your spouse, their trust and security, etc.

I didn’t go out and cheat and think my husband did anything to deserve it. And I certainly can see the decision to cheat was not considering him at all.

I use gambling or shopping as an example because if you know about addictions, those are two where the highs and lows cause crazy amounts of dopamine to be released in your brain. They are also forms of escapism. The substance abuse occurs within the brain chemistry, unlike with drugs or alcohol.

You might start off making coherent decisions, like "I am going to go out and gamble with my girlfriends tonight, how much fun money can we afford" but for some people the highs and lows of the losing and winning creates an addiction. Soon you are lying to support it, and you losing bigger and bigger amounts. You can see it’s going the wrong way but you keep doing it because the highs are very high. Even though it’s detrimental to the financial security of you and your family.

Now, the wound to the betrayed isn’t as personal as the act of intimately betraying someone. But the cause of the gambling, an affair, drugs, etc, that all starts with escapism. Doing something that mentally allows you to escape yourself and life.

My whole point in the comparison boils down to this- your wife didn’t cheat on you because there is something wrong with you. You would be able to see the destructive behaviors as escapism if it was a gambling or shopping addiction but because it’s an intimate betrayal it’s a much deeper personal wound.

i was really just trying to offer an explanation of how I can tell you I always knew deep down my husband was clearly a better choice. I did what I did because it felt good to me and I was selfish. And yes, it can become addictive like gambling or shopping and you keep upping the ante as you go. I didn’t talk to the AP thinking we were eventually going to have sex. It was more that I felt good pretending to be this cooler, better version of myself. It felt good he was buying it. And things kept escalating to keep it going. It certainly wasn’t because the ap was this big prize.

And by the way, this twin flame bullshit was just her way of justifying it. He isn’t anything to her, and in time she is going to see that and realize she was stupid.

Oh and I don’t think I answered on this:

I

am sure they know the consequences of their actions, the severity of those consequences, and how such consequences will destroy their spouses and their marriage.

For me it was a series of justifications.

We "just" went on a walk.

We "just" texted. (Even though we had no professional reason to do so.

And then the risks kept increasing. I didn’t consider my spouse because I didn’t think I was going to be found out. I also felt like I was in control. People have narratives they tell themselves that aren’t truth or even helpful.

Later, when the risks were worse, it was pushing thoughts about my husband away, compartmentalizing, justifying, making excuses.

Of course the results couldn’t be more destructive but it wasn’t an all at once proposition for me.

1. How did you earn back BS's trust in you?

Consistent honesty. It was at least two years after I came clean before BH stopped waiting for the other shoe to drop. Maybe more like three. And there are still triggers, though fortunately they're much more rare.

2. If you had the option to leave your marriage for AP, then why did you choose to be with your spouse?

My BH was the better man. I understand that's awful, the assumption that I was the prize and that I had the right to pit these two men against each other in a competition. That's not the way love works. But in my selfish mind, it was that simple. I had four years invested in BH and four months in the OM. Even in that four months, I could see signs that we would have been terrible together long term, while BH and I had proven long term compatibility. The affair was something outside my "real" life that was never meant to last.

3. Did you ever feel that you owe AP an explanation for going NC with them? If you did, then why did you feel that way?

It was much worse than thinking I owed an explanation for NC. I flatly refused to go NC for almost a year. I insisted we could stay "just friends." I had told him that when it ended, I would always care about him, and ironically, I was driven by a commitment to keeping my word.

4. Did you ever feel that AP was a victim of your deception?

I felt I owed him for having led him on, because I truly never thought he'd fall in love with me. He was pining for someone else when we met (the girl who ultimately married his best friend), so I thought he was "safe" and that things wouldn't go too far. But fall he did (or thought he did), and then I went back to BH, and I felt guilty because BH "won." It felt like friendship was the least I could do. I refused to admit, even to myself, that I was recharging off OM's pining like an emotional vampire.

I feel like this is a fairly niche question, as I don’t think this is typical of most WS… but if you are a WS and you didn’t really take care to hide your affair(s) per se, why? What was your thinking? What was your motivation? What did you believe at the time?

I mean that you did not want to get caught, would have honestly have preferred not to get caught (and/or at least believed at the time you didn’t want to get caught) and also didn’t want to confess, but you did some or all of the following:

* didn’t hide the AP(s) in any way (except the fact that they were AP(s))

* may have lied by omission, but didn’t actively construct fake stories to see the AP(s) or about anything or much related to the infidelity

* didn’t necessarily demand/ask the AP(s) not to tell

* didn’t delete/destroy evidence (or most/much evidence)

* didn’t do anything to cover tracks at all, per se (e.g., BS may have had passwords to a phone or email or whatever for innocuous reasons and could have easily found evidence if they cared to look for it)

* introduced your AP(s) to your BS (or they were already known to them)

* admitted to having done "mildly" sketchy-sounding or problematic things with AP(s) (that you did actually do) in a way that indirectly assured BS that was ALL you did with AP(s) (sort of "trickle truth," even during the affairs)

* were aware that another person or other people (who knew both you and the BS) knew or strongly suspected that you were being unfaithful— and didn’t hide it from those people per se, and didn’t tell them not to tell your BS, etc.

I could probably think of more, but you get the gist. Doesn’t have to be all of these things, but at least a couple.

I realize this profile probably is more likely to apply to someone having (or thinking they're having) an exit affair than another kind of affair. However, my WS was a cake-eater (at least, I think so, and he'd describe himself as such) and did these things. I'm very, very interested in hearing from anyone who fits this profile, though. I’d love to hear your perspective, and thanks for the service you provide here to this community. I can see how healing and helpful your participation is for both us BSs and y’all.

I copied what you said but only left the list of things that applied to my situation:

* didn’t hide the AP(s) in any way (except the fact that they were AP(s))

* may have lied by omission, but didn’t actively construct fake stories to see the AP(s) or about anything or much related to the infidelity

* didn’t necessarily demand/ask the AP(s) not to tell

* didn’t delete/destroy evidence (or most/much evidence)

* didn’t do anything to cover tracks at all, per se (e.g., BS may have had passwords to a phone or email or whatever for innocuous reasons and could have easily found evidence if they cared to look for it

* admitted to having done "mildly" sketchy-sounding or problematic things with AP(s) (that you did actually do) in a way that indirectly assured BS that was ALL you did with AP(s) (sort of "trickle truth," even during the affairs)

For the last one I didn’t associate it with the actual AP but I would say sketchy shit like "don’t you miss the new love feeling?" And I believe I said to him at one point I had a crush on someone else. He never really pushed me on for answers. I did eventually confess on my own, and he says he was blindsided, but I am not an accomplished liar and I don’t think I was particularly discreet, nor was I particularly blatant. I think maybe because my affair was long distance he didn’t really see any absences that made him think anything was really going on.

He had my phone passwords, I didn’t delete stuff all that often. Probably the only thing that might have hindered any investigation was using a chap app rather than it being something in my texts. Phone calls were very few and very rare I am not sure it would have been something that would have stood out.

I could probably think of more, but you get the gist. Doesn’t have to be all of these things, but at least a couple.

I realize this profile probably is more likely to apply to someone having (or thinking they're having) an exit affair than another kind of affair. However, my WS was a cake-eater (at least, I think so, and he'd describe himself as such) and did these things. I'm very, very interested in hearing from anyone who fits this profile, though. I’d love to hear your perspective, and thanks for the service you provide here to this community. I can see how healing and helpful your participation is for both us BSs and y’all.

I had no plans to leave for the ap. But I did think about moving into one of our rental properties. I do think looking back it was an exit affair, but because I didn’t leave and never got serious about it, I think in many ways it was cake eating.

I think it was a combo of trying to blow up the marriage, but maybe moreso me rebelling on the construct of our marriage. I never said to the ap I was wanted more, nor did I feel the ap was going to leave his wife. But I did think about divorce a good deal.

In time I understood my avoidant behaviors had created the constructs that I was unhappy with, and the affair was just more avoidant behavior of the crisis I was going through and feeling very stuck in patterns that had brought on that depression.

I think a lot of not being so fussy on him finding out had more to do with not caring about anything. I once read that some people have affairs because they are not ready for suicide and that was very much my situation. The carelessness in which I handled the affair was just more of a testament that I didn’t care about what happened to me.

How I wasn’t caught and still managed to blindside him, I don’t know. But he knew that I was not acting normally and that we were having marital issues, he just didn’t guess there was someone else involved. I had been such a honest dealer, a rule follower, it was very hard for him to picture me doing something like that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:20 PM, Friday, March 1st]

The painful, gutting reality is that the WS and AP shared something together that only belonged to them. In many cases, they were well aware that it would have to end at some point, and they made completely unrealistic promises to each other about remaining close friends and always being there for each other. The BS needs to see that burned to the ground. They want to take their power back and prove to the AP that everything the WS said was a lie. But in many cases, it wasn't a lie. It was misguided, deluded, driven by weakness in the WS, but honestly meant at the time that it was spoken. The NC is the lie, the message that "I don't give the tiniest fuck about you and never did." It's a necessary message, but as much as the BS would like it to be true, it often is not. And so the WS and AP try to get closure, to end it on a "cruel fate" note. The drama reaches a crescendo, and they jump right back in.

I have always tried to put myself in my husband's shoes and I knew from day 1 that it wouldn't be easy for my husband to be without the person who gave him the undivided attention he needed, the support he found during the darkest time of his life. I do think he was wrong for choosing to hurt me, it was an unnecessary pain, I di not deserve it in any way or form, but I think I know it must have been hell for him to remain without the affair. I honestly think it is not even the person per se he missed, but the emotions, the attentions, the fact he felt like on a podium all the time during the affair, because that POS, FB treated him like he was god and she did it because she truly never saw his truly self. They never argued, they never had to share duties, so she never experienced how infuriating it could be to be with him and see he didn't care if the dog had to be walked, if the children needed emotional support, if the house was a total mess and he didn't give a monkey about it. She never experienced him leaving all that needs to be done on her shoulders because together they never shared anything a part from words, sex and fun. They never had to go to his parents together and get insulted by them and disrespected in any way or form. She wouldn't have survived a week in the life my husband and I lived. If she had ever become the official new partner, she would have walked away after a month. She doesn't know him at all. She has a false image of him because they lived a dream.

So he missed the magic of a reality that was a bubble. Realising it was a bubble was probably hard enough, but living without it from one day to the other must have been hard. He didn't have anyone to share his pain with. I had friends, family, therapist. He never wanted an individual theraPy, because he knows he would have to touch childhood wounds that hurt too much. He only chose loneliness and was close to suicide. He felt the failure of everything at once. So I am sorry he experienced something important to him and left me out of it, he shouldn't have, but I am also sorry he lived his pain in his soul with nobody around, in isolation. I can imagine he has found it really hard and the addiction to the affair must have been really hard to put out.

SORRY IF I WROTE ON THE WRONG THREAD. WHERE CAN I PUT THESE THOUGHTS?

[This message edited by Molly65 at 9:06 PM, Friday, March 1st]

Probably like when someone tries drugs they don’t believe they will become an addict.

I've used this analogy, too. Another WS compared it to a thrill ride. There you are in line, with a clear view of people getting the shit scared out of them, dropped from suicidal heights, snapped back and forth to the point where they're screaming. Why would you volunteer for that, especially when you've had plenty of time to change your mind? Because you think it's all a game. Someone else has put on safety rails. The thrill is real, but the risk is imaginary. True, there's a tiny chance something could go wrong, but that's anxiety talking, right? You're just going to have a little fun, and it will all end on schedule with no harm done. And so, you jump on board.

That is interesting. On other infidelity websites cheaters tend to deny an affair is like experiencing addiction by a drug. Can anyone explain more what it is that makes you unwilling to stop the affair or let go of the Affair partner? I am sure there is more than just feeling entitled.

[This message edited by Molly65 at 9:04 PM, Friday, March 1st]

MY husband said he was tired of the affair because his mistress was being pushy, she wanted the fairy tale, she insisted he would divorce me, but he said it never crossed his mind. Apparently the last year of affair they met very little in person. He said he didn't even care anymore to delete all the messages and hoped to get caught.

Is there anyone who wanted in a sense to get caught? What were you thinking about?

My sister said he wanted to get caught so I would ask for divorce, which I didn't. He said he didn't know what he wanted, he just couldn't anymore of the lies and the double life. He hoped something would happen. We had become much closer, we had started to laugh a lot more, to be doing things together.

Can any of you bring their experiences to "hope" to get caught?

For the WS who realized they affaired down physically.

I know my husband did affair down as do most and tried to make her look better than she did in his head. I think the more blow jobs and salads she tossed the more attractive she became with all the dopamine. But I saw her in person. In real life. She was not attractive. I found photos online of her and one day I shoved it in his face and he looked disgusted.

My question to you is…. Did you affair down, did you trick yourself into an attraction and when did the rose colored glasses come off for you?

I know every AP is an affair down because they are willing to go in the gutter and accept the very ugly parts of the WS.

To answer the getting caught questions I will say I/we did the following from the list:

* didn’t hide the AP(s) in any way (except the fact that they were AP(s))

Both of us did this. We were all acquainted via work except for my BS, who knew AP and BW via me.

* may have lied by omission, but didn’t actively construct fake stories to see the AP(s) or about anything or much related to the infidelity

Me more than AP. My BH knew AP and I were close friends and called it up to that.

* didn’t necessarily demand/ask the AP(s) not to tell

We didn’t but it was implied and inferred.

* didn’t delete/destroy evidence (or most/much evidence)

I would move evidence, hide it, but didn’t delete anything. AP did not even do that, which was how he had his DD so fast.

* introduced your AP(s) to your BS (or they were already known to them)

We did this, but before any affair happened. When everybody met, an affair was not on either AP or my mind.

* admitted to having done "mildly" sketchy-sounding or problematic things with AP(s) (that you did actually do) in a way that indirectly assured BS that was ALL you did with AP(s) (sort of "trickle truth," even during the affairs)

I did not do this. AP did.

* were aware that another person or other people (who knew both you and the BS) knew or strongly suspected that you were being unfaithful— and didn’t hide it from those people per se, and didn’t tell them not to tell your BS, etc.

Neither of us did this ever, ever. Rumors did not start until after APs DD.

I think AP wasn’t careful because he wanted to get caught on some level, and he agrees, even though he said he didn’t want to be at the time. He was hoping it was the straw that would break the back of the marriage and an indisputable breaking point.

I didn’t want to get caught, but am guilty of so many of the behaviors above because my marriage didn’t require me to do anything extreme to hide it besides shifting emails around and putting texts in a secret folder. We were already living parallel to each other so it’s not like BH would stumble onto anything through our daily interactions. I still didn’t want to be caught, though, because I didn’t want to hurt him or disappoint my family. There was a really confusing mix of conflicting feelings, which led me to want to take the easy route: complacent secrecy. It was easier to have a secret life than to have hard conversations until DD happened.

For those who trickle truthed their spouse , how long did it take to fully come clean and what was the reason you did come clean, was there an aha moment? What were your reasons for the TT?

I'm sure she will realize that soon enough though

I hope so, too.

hikingout: In other words, an affair is a person's awful coping mechanism for his or her day-to-day personal problems.

Your reply to my question has been eye-opening as well as frightening to me. If I were responsible for her betrayal, then correcting my mistakes and inefficiencies could stop her betrayal. In this scenario, I can see myself exercising some level of control over what happens to me. But in reality, we have no control over or say over what happens to us or what is done to us through infidelity. That is frightening and sickening. The lack of my control, the lack of my choice, and the total non-existence of my presence, my worth, and my respect in their affair world are what are very traumatizing to me. Thanks for taking the time and effort to ease my confusion. Much grateful!

You said your husband was a better man, and in other post, you mentioned he was a serial cheater. I fail to see how was he a better man. Why did you chose to be with a person who betrayed you more than once? How were you able to forgive him?

BraveSirRobin:

The affair was something outside my "real" life that was never meant to last.

I wonder if my wife had a similar understanding of her affair. She speaks a very similar language.

I had told him that when it ended, I would always care about him,

 
I fear my wife might have said something similar to her AP, and it's triggering me so much. He is an enemy, and he needs to be treated as such by my wife.

I felt I owed him for having led him on, because I truly never thought he'd fall in love with me.

Do you think AP's being single has anything to do with WS seeing him or her as a victim? Both in my wife's case and yours, AP was single, and both of you felt like you owed him something.

Thank you for your reply.

You said your husband was a better man, and in other post, you mentioned he was a serial cheater. I fail to see how was he a better man. Why did you chose to be with a person who betrayed you more than once? How were you able to forgive him?

No my AP was a serial cheater. My husband did have an affair, it was 18 months after mine. He did the work, I have forgiven him. He is a good and honest man, and I see his affair a lot like my own, an aberration. I don’t have any inkling he would do it again and if he does I have come to understand that in time I would be okay.

Yes, I can see how you might think you had any control or have it moving forward. But the good news is you have control over you, over your response. I think a ws can prove they learned their lesson and rebuild trust over time if they are remorseful over their behavior and do significant work on their self.

But you did not cause the affair, and believing that I think is more detrimental. Were you a perfect spouse? Probably not, no one ever is. But it’s the ws’s responsibility for their own happiness and to work and communicate with their partner to get their needs met. There are always better solutions over cheating.

For what it’s worth, I told my AP I would always care for him at our parting. It’s pretty standard. But it was an assumption that didn’t hold water.I do not care about him, I wish I never got involved with him. These are early days, this shit is so hard.