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More questions....
I of course fully expect, deserve and can accept anger, name calling, even verbal abuse at times of triggers that cause my BS to flood. My question is it too much to expect, for some type of remorse or apology after the outburst has ended and we are back to an emotional even place? I haven't heard many yet, but keep reminding myself she is choosing to stay and work on R so that is her apology. Issue becomes i'm truly confused at some points does my BS believe the awful things she says during those moments? Is the lashing out an attempt to control behaviour? Old Testament "eye for an eye" mentality?

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[This message edited by Inbocaallupo at 3:40 AM, Friday, September 23rd]

Let me preface this with saying that I don't approve of verbal abuse. It's common after an affair, that's true. It's an incredible amount of stress and trauma for the BS so outbursts can happen. Just because something is normal or common though doesn't make it preferable. That said, no, I don't think you should expect an apology. Apologies require emotional vulnerability and I think that's too much to expect in the immediate aftermath of intimate betrayal. No amount of vulnerability should be expected. Your questions suggest that you haven't really connected with how bad your betrayal really was. You might consider reading a copy of How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda McDonald. It's short and you might even be able to find a free down load online.

Is the lashing out an attempt to control behaviour?

I suppose anything is possible but if she's been in counseling, surely she understands that she's not able to control anyone's behavior but her own. I think the logical explanation for her lashing out is that it's just her anger and frustration and pain and anguish and hopelessness coming out. She's living a nightmare and she doesn't know how to handle it.

Old Testament "eye for an eye" mentality?

IMHO, you're way off base here. You committed physical acts of betrayal; you committed physical acts of deception; you committed physical acts of dismissing her as your wife; you committed physical acts of discounting her value to you. Her throwing ugly words at you is more like a dangling cuticle for an eye. So I believe that's a big clue that you don't get it yet.

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As a BS who has been on this forum for a few years now, please allow me to share what I think I see going on with you. I'm not a professional in any field, I'm just an old woman who's been around the block a few times and noticed a few things along the way. And let me further tell you I believe everyone is capable of change and becoming a better person and I hope that's the case for you. I used to be proud of that belief until I realized I believed it for 45 yrs. for naught until I realized I wasn't a good judge of which ones WANT to be good. Methinks I was guilty of false pride, eh?

At any rate, you've taken the first steps by reading in this forum and by starting to engage in some conversations. Please take advantage of the tab on the home page called The Healing Library. Please talk to your counselor about getting a counselor for yourself to work on your issues. Obviously, your marriage is very broken and I think if you think about it, you'll realize it can't be fixed until the players are fixed enough to bring something to the table to work with.

Do you love your wife? You don't mention loving her or caring about her. Why is that?

Which hurts more, your pain of regret and remorse for your behavior or the pain of her words about your behavior?

What are you doing to help her recover from the devastation your cheating has caused her? Does her pain cause you pain, deep in your gut visceral pain? Or does her pain just annoy you, like a fly buzzing around your dinner plate? These aren't questions you need to answer here because what you say here or to me doesn't matter; what does matter is how you answer yourself. From what I've read, I think you still have a way to go before you get it. These are important things for you to spend some time contemplating because from what I see, the things you've written are all about you. Oh sure, you throw in a few "I know what I did was wrong" type of things but they're mentioned as asides which clearly shows you're still "me focused." And as long as you're in that mindset, you might be an OK person for the world but you are not capable of being a good life partner.

And, one last thing: if you drink or use recreational drugs, well, I could write 6 pages about that issue but the main point is, abusing alcohol is "me centered" and as long as you use or imbibe, not only will your life not improve, it's very likely to take a downward spiral.

This is all written in the hope that it helps that little bell in your head start to go "ding, ding, ding." All the best to you.

[This message edited by josiep at 2:11 PM, Tuesday, August 30th]

The next is an easy one, is there a search forum function?

No Sir...there is no search function. There are articles in The Healing Library that have been written by some members on here. There are also threads that are pinned at the top of some Forums that are relevant to that Forum. I am a BW...so I couldn't answer this question in the thread where you asked that question because you have a STOP sign in that thread. I hope this helps!

Now to the other questions you have. I can't possibly write for your Betrayed Wife. I CAN give MY thoughts though from the same time frame as they relate to your questions.

My question is it too much to expect, for some type of remorse or apology after the outburst has ended and we are back to an emotional even place? I haven't heard many yet, but keep reminding myself she is choosing to stay and work on R so that is her apology.

For ME...YES it was too much to expect. I couldn't possibly be at ANY even emotional place when I was still in so much PAIN. It was ALWAYS in the back of my mind. I DID NOT WANT THIS. But I had NO choice in the matter did I?

Issue becomes i'm truly confused at some points does my BS believe the awful things she says during those moments?

I very definitely BELIEVED what I was saying during those moments. As I saw my H's remorse...and learned that he was NOT the monster I saw him as after his A...my beliefs started to change too.

Is the lashing out an attempt to control behaviour? Old Testament "eye for an eye" mentality?

I may have been trying to control the situation I was in...but there was no way I could. MY H CHEATED ON ME. There was no changing that. I am not sure what you are talking about with the "eye for an eye" mentality...but if it is about a BS having an RA...MANY Betrayeds have thought about revenge affairs...me included. It really isn't that hard to find someone who is broken enough to cheat with...especially for women. The thing is...ALL of us have been hit on at one time or another during a relationship. SOME of us know that commitment to another means that this avenue is OFF LIMITS. There have been those who never thought about having an A until they have been cheated on though...and then they went on to have a RA.

My question is it too much to expect, for some type of remorse or apology after the outburst has ended

Simply put, yes it is too much for you to expect.

I will second CT that verbal abuse is not okay. But your wife is not really your "wife" right now. Her entire world has been turned inside out and set on fire. I have been through a lot in my life and the pain I was in after my xwh's affair is hands-down the WORST pain I have ever felt. It changed me profoundly and permanently.

and we are back to an emotional even place?

Your wife is not at "an emotionally even place" right now. Not for one second is she anything approaching "emotionally even". After dday1, I would say it took a good 4-5 months before I started feeling remotely 'even' again.

Issue becomes i'm truly confused at some points does my BS believe the awful things she says during those moments? Is the lashing out an attempt to control behaviour?

You are a stranger to her right now, a stranger wearing her husband's face. Maybe she does believe them, maybe she doesn't. IMHO it's far more likely that her lashing out is just immense pain and anger and confusion needing an outlet.

As for control... she thought she was in control of her life and her marriage. Having that rug yanked out from under one's self is extremely discombobulating. And if she's anything like me, she's also going back over every. single. thing. you have ever said and done and every thought she's ever held about you and re-analyzing them. It is exhausting being a new BW. Emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually exhausting. It takes time to adjust and to figure out that the control you thought you had was only ever an illusion.

As for control... she thought she was in control of her life and her marriage. Having that rug yanked out from under one's self is extremely discombobulating. And if she's anything like me, she's also going back over every. single. thing. you have ever said and done and every thought she's ever held about you and re-analyzing them. It is exhausting being a new BW. Emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually exhausting. It takes time to adjust and to figure out that the control you thought you had was only ever an illusion.

EllieKMAS

That is so well put. And now that you mention it, I think it explains, at least in part, why so many say it takes 1 year of healing for every 5 years of a marriage ended by infidelity. I'm 5 years out and still catch myself analyzing and re-analyzing and it's not only exhausting, it's soul-sucking.

I'd like to start a new thread in General using your quote as the starting off point if that's OK with you, EllieK?

Anger = PAIN

Thank you all for your responses and suggested reading materials.

Chamomline I have read numerous of your posts and have found your replies to myself and others insightful. We are now 3 years out from the immediate aftermath. In your numerous experiences, at least here on the site, would emotional vulnerability be something that may return so I could look to find hope in that, as we get further away from Dday.

josiep thank you I understand I didn't give much of the needed context so how could you get a well round picture of our journey, but I thank you for your comments. No alcohol or drugs for me but I can see why you asked I agree with your substance stance. My wife is the most important person in my world, I care for her above all else. In caring for her i'm seeking answers to the questions I have to gain and further insights and re shape my own short comings in hopes to rebuild our relationship. At the moment most of those questions are "I" related as IC, MC, SA classes, books, podcasts and sites like this and AR has offered many wonderful insights as to how BS & WS may feel. Please try not to misconstrue that means i'm not doing all in my power to understand the pain I caused and am still causing "not getting it" in her journey as id like to hear more from your perceptive.

want2bhappy thank you for the search button and your thoughts from the betrayed side.

Eliie thank you the comments about your wife isn't your wife right is really thought provoking, you may very well be right. A stranger wearing familiar face. I realize you may need more context but in your opinion, as a BS gets further from the trauma, we are 3 years out does it takes less time to get back to emotional even even after a triggering moment?

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[This message edited by Inbocaallupo at 3:41 AM, Friday, September 23rd]

josiep thank you I understand I didn't give much of the needed context so how could you get a well round picture of our journey, but I thank you for your comments. No alcohol or drugs for me but I can see why you asked I agree with your substance stance. My wife is the most important person in my world, I care for her above all else. In caring for her i'm seeking answers to the questions I have to gain and further insights and re shape my own short comings in hopes to rebuild our relationship. At the moment most of those questions are "I" related as IC, MC, SA classes, books, podcasts and sites like this and AR has offered many wonderful insights as to how BS & WS may feel. Please don't misconstrue as many others have on the site that means Im not doing all in my power to understand the pain I caused and am still causing "not getting it" in her journey as id like to hear more from your perceptive.

That's very well said and it's true that we can't cover all the bases every time we want to ask a question or we'd spend all our time writing novellas to give the background.

In view of what you said, perhaps you could try a whole new approach? Start each day reading something inspirational, something to make you appreciate the world, your home, your marriage, anything positive. Hug and kiss your wife, tell her you love her and you're going to prove it. Then go about your day, whether it's at work or whatever. Do everything with a sense of appreciation and gratitude. Don't let anything ruin your mood. Someone cuts you off in traffic? Let him go and say a little prayer that whatever he's rushing to turns out OK. When you get home, be glad to see her. Talk about dinner, what you both did that day, make plans for the weekend, even a hike or sitting on a bench overlooking a body of water. Activities that soothe the soul.

And maybe offer to do a project together? Maybe redo a patch of landscaping in your yard? A little garden area with a bench that'll be your special place to sit together and hold hands? With a little fairy garden or a garish gnome with your favorite team logo on it. Or raise sunflowers along your back fence. Or decide to repaint the guest room. But think of something that you'll do together.

And then, if she brings up something, you look her in the eye and you apologize for making her feel so bad. It doesn't matter if she misunderstood what you did or thought you did something you didn't because whatever it was, it made her feel bad. And while she might be wrong about some of it, the fact is, you created this situation and it'll take time to undo it.

But I think in time, just being there for her and with her, loving her and being kind to her, promising her you'll never take your marriage for granted again, it'll start to soften and she may very well fall in love with you all over again. But you have to make sure to really hear her and see her as she is and not how you think she should be (not that you'd do it on purpose but sometimes we have to acknowledge human nature too).

Practice humility, extend grace, be kind, be patient.

IOWs, you can ask questions of us but we can only tell you how it was for us. Your wife is her and her reactions and behaviors and feelings will all be hers and we can't predict that if you do A, she'll do B. I get the urge to try to work it all out in your head that way but the truly, that's all neither here nor there. Because Naamah nailed it: Anger = Pain. Start trying to ease the pain and the anger will subside.

Wishing you the best.

I'd like to start a new thread in General using your quote as the starting off point if that's OK with you, EllieK?

Sure!

I realize you may need more context but in your opinion, as a BS gets further from the trauma, we are 3 years out does it takes less time to get back to emotional even even after a triggering moment?

The context I need for this is what have you done in those three years? Have you gotten yourself into counseling? Given FULL transparency? Not trickle-truthed? Not had any other infidelities? provided a written timeline? Done a polygraph?

The reason I ask is because you might be three years from the last "infidelity", but if you had a new truth come out last week then your wife is actually only 1 week from dday. ANY new discoveries, ANY new truths, ANY piece of info that comes out that she didn't know three years ago sets her healing right back to zero.

Eliie thank you the comments about your wife isn't your wife right is really thought provoking, you may very well be right. A stranger wearing familiar face. I realize you may need more context but in your opinion, as a BS gets further from the trauma, we are 3 years out does it takes less time to get back to emotional even even after a triggering moment?

The context I need for this is what have you done in those three years? Have you gotten yourself into counseling? IC over year. Given FULL transparency? YES Not trickle-truthed? Trickle truth stopped not quickly enough but over three years ago. Not had any other infidelities? NONE Provided a written timeline? YES Done a polygraph? Offered numerous times but has been declined by BS. Hoping this gives you more context as id like to hear your thoughts about any experiences you may have reigning emotional even after triggering event/s.

Thank you josiep, sound advice. Cant control this or any other situation, just attempting to gain the most information possible.

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[This message edited by Inbocaallupo at 3:41 AM, Friday, September 23rd]

Thank you josiep, sound advice. Cant control this or any other situation, just attempting to gain the most information possible.

I should have clarified that I didn't mean for it to be taken as advice but rather a stream of ideas for a different way of approaching your situation that might help spark ideas in your mind about how to improve your relationship.

It's when we reach out to others and get new perspectives and information and ideas, etc. that our brains can maybe look at things in a different way to help ward off the proverbial "What's the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."

And I think that's why I jumped into your thread because I saw a guy who's trying to figure out new things, new ways, new ideas. And I personally think that's sort of the key to having a good life and I wish that for you and I wish that for your BW.

Inbocaallupo

Welcome to SI. Before I reply to your post, I'd like to offer you a point of view which we can move forward from.

Imagine that you go to see your regular, family doctor for an annual checkup at the local hospital. You've known this doctor for years and he's always been there for you and your family, with great health care and emotional support. You recommend him to everyone you hear of looking for a new doctor. During the checkup, the Dr. looks very panicked, and he says to you, "OMG, I need to get you into the operating room right away, or you could die!" and moments later, you are being wheeled down to an operating room. It seems a little odd that a family doctor would be in the operating room, but you trust him, and so you push the thought aside as you are being anesthetized and fall asleep. A few hours later, you wake up in a tub filled with ice and in terrible pain. It turns out that the doctor actually removed several perfectly good organs from your body, sold them on the black market, and took his cute new assistant on a romantic trip overseas with the profits. Meanwhile, you are disfigured for life and will always rely on tons of drugs and trips to the hospital just to stay alive. Your life is ruined. You are also going to be broke for life from the financial impact of this. Your job, your life, your family, everything in your world is affected by this, and you feel like a fool every time you have to tell the story and people say, "Your family doctor was going to operate on you, and you said okay?" When you do see the doctor again, you say to him, "You ruined my life! I trusted you with my life and my health, and you violated everything about that! I will never be the same person again! You are a monster! You are a criminal! You are a liar and a cheat and a disgusting human being for selling my organs just so you could impress your date! I can never trust anyone ever again after this, because if my own doctor can betray me, anyone can! I can never live my life or acheive my dreams because of you. And why do you have that smug, snarky look on your face?" And the doctor replies, "Yeah, well, enough about me, let's talk about YOU and what kind of asshole you are! And let's start with you owe me an apology for calling me a monster and blaming me for you not achieving your goals..."

Given the story above, I want you to try and apply those feelings and outcomes to how your wife feels, and how she is experiencing life with you right now. In her mind, you were the one person in this whole world that was supposed to have her back, at all times, for all reasons. But instead of that, you had your own back. You abused her trust and betrayed her. To the victim of infidelity, it feels a whole lot like having your organs harvested. It is something that is done to you, by someone else, with malice, and with a complete lack of empathy or concern for your own needs and well being, for the sole purpose of the other person getting their rocks off and feeling "loved/attractive/special/powerful" somehow at your expense. Infidelity is often described as being a trauma that is WORSE than death or a violent accident. At least in those cases, while you are left emotionally or physically hurt, those things happen "despite" you, they aren't done "to you". A loved one who dies doesn't do it to hurt you or leave you alone. But when you cheat on a spouse, you are actively doing just that. Kicking them to the curb in order make yourself feel better or get what it is you need.

I just want to make it clear that my it is not my intention here to judge you in any way - we are all WS's here and we all did the very same things (and usually had the same thoughts and reactions as you are now) to our spouses and families. Rather, what I want to impart to you is a glimpse into your wife's perspective of what happened, what she experienced, and why she feels and acts the way she does. More importantly, you need to understand that this is not a "tit for tat" situation here. If things in your marriage were bad, you had options. You could have divorced or separated. You could have asked to go see a marriage counselor. You could have asked about an open marriage. Instead, you chose to ignore your own dignity, self-respect and decency. Like the doctor in the story above, you chose to do the wrong thing, and to do so at the expense of another person, one who loved, trusted, respected and relied on you. When that happens, it honestly destroys any "standing" you may have to complain about marriage issues. Your actions were a bomb that dropped and blew everything to hell.

Let me ask you... in the example story above, do you think the doctor has any right whatsoever to ask for an apology for being called a monster? Does he have any right to turn the table around and start to blame you for stuff? Would you feel any obligation whatsoever to stay with this doctor, to care about his bills or his reputation or the hardships that resulted from this, or to work with him to re-establish trust again in the future? If he too lost all his finances because of this, would that make it feel "Fair and okay" to you? Or did he bring that on himself, and his problems now are ones that he brought on himself because of his own actions and choices?

Look, your story is complex. I saw a lot in what you said. I see that there is a somewhat significant age difference between you and your spouse. It seems as if you married a woman with three kids and took on an "instant family" in the process. And you seem to indicate that there is strife between her and her kids (which I'm not sure of, simply because many WS's, myself included, tended to re-write history and parts of the story to fit their own paradigms). If so, it sounds as if you have a LOT of issues to deal with. (By the way, my story is very similar).

The problem is, the time to do that, was BEFORE. Much in the same way that, if that doctor had a beef with you, if he had brought that up with you before stealing your organs, it might have been a topic of conversation. But now? Now, all bets are off. That doctor can go fuck himself, and requires a serious attitude adjustment if he thinks you're going to give a shit about his problems now. In that same way, your wife also feels like you can go fuck yourself, and that you have some serious balls for bringing up her faults when you just won the Olympics of shittyness in her eyes. And to ask her for an apology on top of that... oooh boy. That takes some gonads, and I don't mean that in a good way. So...no, it would not be reasonable to expect nor demand an apology for the things she's said to you in anger.

What you CAN do is work on communication. It's okay to express to her that it makes you feel disrespected when she calls you names, but only in so far as expressing your feelings. In other words, "When I am called names during an argument, it makes me feel disrespected and unvalued by you, and triggers me terribly. It's okay to express your anger with me, I just request that you please tell me your feelings rather than call names" is okay to say, however, "You owe me an apology for calling me that name, and you aren't so "clean" yourself you know..." is not going to net you the results you want. Speaking of which, there is a third, and better option, which is to say something such as, "I don't blame you for calling me names, because I treated you much worse, and spoke ill of you to the AP, so I guess I deserve it. I want to understand your feelings better, so if you are willing, please tell me what thoughts come up for you when you think about what I did to you? Is there any way I can help to lessen your pain, or offer more details you need, or become someone more trustworthy?" The bottom line is, you are the abuser, she is the victim. In order to address her pain, you have to actually acknowledge it, talk about it (a lot), understand it, and empathize with her about it. She needs to be focus and it is her feelings that need to be addressed.

But what about you? Don't you get to hurt too? Don't you get to have a bad day, or get frustrated? Sure you do. The difference is, she doesn't need to hear about it. So tell us. Or tell friends or a support group. Or write it all down and then throw it in the trash. Get it out however you need to, just don't expect her to be your shoulder to cry on. The things you want to share with her are the things that you feel have helped you realize why you did what you did, and/or what steps you've taken to help mitigate further occurrences. In other words, give her reasons to give a shit.

Going back to the doctor, let's say he came to you and said, "I'm so sorry for what I did to you. I know I can never undo what I did, but I will walk through hell and back to make things as right as I can. I want you to know I've turned in my license and I am no longer working as a doctor. I've also contacted the police, turned myself in and will be arraigned soon. I've been seeing a therapist and working on figuring out why I did those things, and making sure I never, ever, hurt you or anyone else in such a way. Don't worry about the medical bills, just send those to me. If it's okay, I'd like to drop by a few times a week and help out around the house or with anything you need. Oh, and I setup a fund so that other people who face this kind of problem can be helped. I checked, I'm a compatible donor, and if you are okay with it, I can donate some of my organs to you. And I've been speaking out at conferences to help others avoid this in their lives. I know I don't deserve it, but if there is any way I can be of help, or do anything to help make things right, just ask and I will drop everything to help you. Please do not forgive me, I don't deserve it, but just know that I am determined to be a better person."

How does that sit with you? Any better than, "How about what you did to me?"

Keep coming back. We're here for you. And again, remember, this isn't meant to be a judgment of you, rather, it is me speaking from a lot of experience having walked in your very same shoes and having had the same thoughts and questions. I was a shitty WS. Let me help you to not make the same mistakes.

It's difficult to help you with such scant details on your situation.

For example, in your original posting you said you are attending or had attended SA therapy. Are you a diagnosed sex addict?

Your affair(s) as you described were online, cruising dating sites. You said no EA or PA. There is no way to tell from what you've written if this happened one time or fifty times. Were you engaging with other women or "just" viewing profiles?

Your first step as a WS is total honesty about who you are and what you've done. You certainly do not need to share that with us but it's super challenging to help without knowing the full story.

Having said all of that, I'll say this: Your wife's healing is up to her. At three years I wouldn't expect her to be healed per se, but healing. That she isn't is either a result of the work you have not done (she doesn't feel safe and continues to be angry and protective of herself), the work she hasn't done or the fact that infidelity is a deal breaker for her but she hasn't found the courage to leave.

It sucks for a BS in a million ways, one of them is that no one can fix this for us. No one can heal us. We have been mortally wounded and we have to stave the bleeding, bandage the wound, mix the antibiotics, administer the treatment and heal ourselves.

Your job as the WS is atonement. DaddyDom and others can help guide you to what that means and looks like. Atonement helps her feel safe. Atonement helps her to feel valuable to you (something she for sure lost with your cheating). Atonement makes you an ally in her healing versus an enemy she'd do well to avoid.

Being her ally in healing is critical but she still has to do the healing. If she were here I'd recommend IC for her. All sorts of other things like books on healing, radical self care and other ways to rebuild her self worth. As she grows stronger, her fear of you will subside. She'll KNOW she can manage regardless of what you do or what happens to the marriage.

DaddyDom

Thank you for the perspective and the encouraging words. Just for some clarity, I would never think of saying that aloud to my BS, I do understand how insensitive and just downright awful that would be; but I do think it, you are correct. The third option is the most impactful. I will keep returning and do not feel judged by your comments, I welcome them as they are coming from an empathetic place. I've been the fool learning from my own mistakes for a while now, time to attempt to be wise and learn from all of yours. I'll attempt to find your story as reading as it's similar to what you discussed and maybe we could chat about it directly.

Thank you for the end,
Having said all of that, I'll say this: Your wife's healing is up to her. At three years I wouldn't expect her to be healed per se, but healing. That she isn't is either a result of the work you have not done (she doesn't feel safe and continues to be angry and protective of herself), the work she hasn't done, or the fact that infidelity is a deal breaker for her but she hasn't found the courage to leave.
Hard to hear but very impactful words.
The clarity you asked for, Not a SA, though I did attend classes for more than a year at the request of BS. Two different ICs and Mc have all agreed they were never needed. With that said as with any 12-step program, I found many useful/helpful lessons even for those who are not quote-unquote addicted. I will continue to work towards atonement, an alley is what I'm striving to be. "You and I vs the world" are saying she has used in the times when I am succeeding in showing her I'm safe. Thank you again for your perspective from the BS side. If I could ask a question, at what point (could be a timeline or ah-ha moment) did you realize that any pain/anger you were transmitting from the triggers and flooding wasn't helping the relationship move forward. Also please forgive me for being intrusive but did that point get you closer to R or D?

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[This message edited by Inbocaallupo at 3:41 AM, Friday, September 23rd]

I don't think I ever stopped transmitting my pain and anger (until I did, see below), lol. Although, a good MC helped to provide a safer, calmer space to do that transmitting.

That same MC told me early on that the healing was on me. Not that I should suppress myself - quite the opposite actually - she felt expressing pain and anger (as constructively as possible) was vital.

But she always put my actually healing on me. Expressing pain and anger is part of it. But so was building my own strength and sense of self worth. Seeking comfort and love from others. Journaling, reading, individual counseling, meditation, etc and etc was what I could do for myself and was expected to do so. For my health and for my emotional well being. So there was no aha moment then, only the realization that each step was mine to take.

My actual aha moment came when we separated. Free of trying to rebuild my mess of a marriage, I turned my focus on me. I did more healing in the first six months of separation than I had in the 2 years prior to that trying to reconcile. That's when her words made total sense to me. I had that power all along, I just didn't exercise it until then.

I don't think you have to separate for her healing to happen, I'm not saying that. I was a stubborn case that just couldn't until I was forced to do so. But I felt and lived the benefit of that healing. My rage at my WS subsided the stronger I felt. The pain was more manageable because I could soothe and rely on myself and knew it. My need to lash out dropped significantly because I wasn't a helpless, wounded animal afraid of pain. I was a grown adult woman who knew how to protect and help herself. Also, as my self worth rose again the need to knock him down a peg or fifty just subsided. This still took time, but it was a pretty quick downward trajectory of rage and pain.

Be her ally. Work on atonement like it's your job. Encourage her to find her path to healing.

My question is it too much to expect, for some type of remorse or apology after the outburst has ended

You don’t get to shoot someone full of holes and then get angry of them for bleeding, how they bleed, how much they bleed, or the scar tissue.

This is the mental equivalent of holding her hostage and then getting angry at her for escaping and hurting you in the process.

I think you were looking for rationalization when you really need to be looking into a mirror.

WS here. I get where you're coming from. I have dealt with and am dealing with anger from BS. I've been called every insult under the sun and BS has said a lot of hurtful things. I did not react well to this, I did not expect an apology, more I expected her to respect me and not speak so harshly!! I'm no longer there as often as I used to be. I deal with the anger more constructively and use positive self talk to deal with the selfish thoughts. My IC told me to "live in my BSs reality". Similar to walk a mile in her shoes, but focussed on the reality BS is living. This reality might change on a daily basis, this reality might be totally incorrect, this reality might hurt to accept. Either way, it is the reality BS is living. I use this to try and feel more empathy. Previously I would have got defensive and tried to correct her! All this did/does was/is cause BS to become more upset and angry at our defensive behaviour. Given most of the previous conversations were infact lies and minimisation...Defensive.

Everyone has, quite correctly, that an apology is not to be expected. Hey, you may get one, but to expect one given our actions is utterly wrong. As DD says "It takes some gonads". For me it's more of a case of having our heads firmly up our asses. Either way, it's a behaviour that needs to be addressed.

Good luck on the journey. It's long and hard. As the guys on here know, I've only recently started walking the right way down that road and have a long way to travel.

Keep coming back. We're here for you. And again, remember, this isn't meant to be a judgment of you, rather, it is me speaking from a lot of experience having walked in your very same shoes and having had the same thoughts and questions. I was a shitty WS. Let me help you to not make the same mistakes.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

[This message edited by Bulcy at 9:05 PM, Thursday, September 1st]

But what about you? Don't you get to hurt too? Don't you get to have a bad day, or get frustrated? Sure you do. The difference is, she doesn't need to hear about it. So tell us. Or tell friends or a support group. Or write it all down and then throw it in the trash. Get it out however you need to, just don't expect her to be your shoulder to cry on.

I think this is important to remember. However, another thing to consider, if you're anything like me, is that BS needs to know what you're feeling. If you're upset, sad, guilty etc your BS needs to know. She needs to know you care and you're getting it. How do you do that? Well, there's the question. It's difficult. I spoke this evening with my BS. The response was - Often she does not give a shit that I'm feeling guilty or upset...I bloody well should be. However she does appreciate me being open and honest. It's all about timing, if your BS is having a bad day, then this is not the beast time to bring up that you are too. Leave it a while, then start the conversation with "I know you were upset earlier because of XXXXX and the way I reacted to XXXX. Is now a good time to discuss what I felt during that discussion?"

I was thinking overnight that maybe I need to quantify a few things.

I think I made my BS out to be a bit of a bitch when saying she does not give a shit. This is not true, BS has been subjected to 27 years of abusive behaviour. What she thought was my first affair was not, what she thought was safe sex, was not. I have lied and denied for so long that BS sees my past as sexual relationships with seven women (penetrative) and approximately seventeen as non penetrative sexual relationships. That is her reality. By keeping my secrets and becoming defensive if and when the subject came up is abusive.

I am an expert at compartmentalising, at focussing on things other than the affairs. BS lives this 24/7. I imagine this is the case for your BS too. They're allowed to be angry, they're allowed to shout and scream. They do not have the luxury of being able to shut out the affair and therefore they need to vent. My BS does try to deal with the anger by not venting at me, but this does sometimes come out.

Stick with trying to understand, if you get an apology then accept it with grace.