SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For me it is pretty simple. When my WS walked all over my feelings, giving nature, and heartfelt partnership, he gave up his "rights" in many ways. Why? Because he took the fairness right out of the equation. That was a hard lesson for me but his infidelity TAUGHT me not to care about his feelings - and it didn't come immediately after d-day either. It came from years of continued emotional abuse because he could not get past being fair but only in an entitled way - fair to him but not to me post infidelity. Before infidelity I cared so much. When I did care, where did it get me? It got me a crushed soul and years of recovery. That's a BS's perspective - at least this one.

This may sound bitter to you but I can assure you it isn't. We are reconciled and it is a changed relationship that is rebuilt on full honesty where each of us has learned to accept truthful discourse as a route to improve ourselves individually and together. I stuck around for all the pain and heartache recovering from this trauma causes. So I would urge you to understand your BS from this perspective.

The point is you cannot expect any fairness when you committed the ultimate in unfair behavior. Did your BS deserve to be lied to? To be put in danger unknowingly? Because I would expect anyone wanting a fair relationship would never, ever put their partner in that position.

The question demonstrates a perspective that may be protective for you - but I can assure you it is more damaging for your BS to have a WS who is concerned about being fair. I think it would be better if the concern centered around her emotional health - that she is lashing out now means there is perhaps some remorse she is seeking and not getting.

Food for thought.

ETA: I'm characterizing this from the perspective of a BS still healing. Once healed, fairness and reasonable discourse reemerges. I do not advocated being mean and abusive - just want you to understand the perspective of fairness for a BS who is still devastated.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 8:02 PM, Saturday, September 3rd]

Hi

FWIW in my opinion not only Is your wife hurt, angry, confused and feeling as if her world has blown apart, she is also ‘sleeping with enemy’ right now. And you I’m afraid are the enemy. Her logical mind may be prepared to stay with you and attempt to reconcile but her gut is screaming at her that you can’t be trusted. It will take time and effort for both of you to rebuild what was broken - can be done. H and I did it but at the moment I suspect your wife is torn between loving you and hating you and that’s a painful place for her to be in. The angry hurting words come from there.

I have never been in your place so I can only imagine how hard it must be for you not to react with your own anger and hurt. But please don’t. She needs to let out that pain and one of the ways you can rebuild her trust is by being there and not backing away when she shows her pain

I believed everything I've said and have never said anything out of spite or for the purpose of injuring my WW.

I wouldn't apologize for being brutally honest when it happened to be appropriate at the time. But after reading your post it dawns on me that my W has probably been waiting for me to apologize for many harsh truths I've spoken since 2019. She was raised in a family that never let someone slighting them slip. They'd always ensure to be victorious in getting the last word (or assassinate their character). Why would she suddenly feel it's okay that I told her how it was?

OP, maybe your BW is different than me though. Maybe she did make up hurtful things to say. But maybe the hurtful things she said were true and needed to be said. If you're honest with yourself you'll probably know. Either way, you're probably the last person who can rightly look for a "fair fight" from your W. Isn't that a bit hypocritical of you?

[This message edited by NotMyFirstRodeo at 2:36 AM, Tuesday, September 6th]

I can tell you that my husband got EVERYTHING thrown at him right after dday. I cried, yelled, screamed, called him and his AP every dirty, rotten, nasty thing I could muster up in my head and it was spewed out like word vomit. Most of the time I felt completely out of control while I was doing it, but I can honestly say, it was done out of complete, unrelenting pain. A pain I had never experienced in my entire life with a large, side order of betrayal.
AND, I was not sorry. He did this to me, to our marriage, and he made the decision to cheat, not me. As far as I was concerned, he gave away any rights he had to be "upset" that he was being called names or being yelled at.

With all that said, I can also add that we reconciled and it's been 5 yrs since the shitshow ended. HE did the work, HE made himself a better partner and I made the choice to forgive him. And because I forgave him and we moved forward, I don't throw it in his face or throw in "digs" about the affair. I am a firm believer in that if a BS choses to forgive and work with the wayward to fix the marriage, the BS should not make the wayward pay for their bad decisions & choices for the rest of their lives. You forgive and move on. If a BS has the need to continue to throw jabs, then something didn't get fixed and they shouldn't have stayed together in my opinion. But remember, the wayward has to do the work to prove they are worth being forgiven.

So be patient with your wife, but your affair could be a deal breaker for her. She may try and get through it only to realize she can't forgive you and will continue to throw it in your face for the rest of your life. If that's the case, life is too short and you should both realize that and go your separate ways.

I kicked my husband out of our house the day I found out that he had been visiting prostitutes during his lunch breaks for at least five years.

I did give reconciliation a shot. I allowed him back in the house, but it only took about a week for him to tell me he was tired of being called a piece of shit. My response was "what else would you call someone who does the things you do?"

Seriously? You betrayed me, lied to me repeatedly for years, completely fucked up my mental and physical health, spent my money on whores and exploded my life, but calling you a mean name is too much for you to bear?

Obviously reconciliation was short-lived and I divorced him pretty quickly after being in love with him for 20 years.

My advice is to pick your battles. If being called names is too much pain for you to handle, then you should get out now, because you’re getting off light and I’m sure your wife has enough to deal with now than to concern herself with protecting a fragile ego.

[This message edited by GiveTimeTime at 8:22 PM, Wednesday, September 7th]

I of course fully expect, deserve and can accept anger, name calling, even verbal abuse at times of triggers that cause my BS to flood. My question is it too much to expect, for some type of remorse or apology after the outburst has ended and we are back to an emotional even place?

While I certainly can understand a new BS's anger (name calling, verbal outbursts, etc), I do not think it's a WS's *job* to accept anger and verbal outburts for any extended length of time. In instances of continued anger, I recommend both the WS and BS seek professional help and take measures to protect themselves. Boundaries are our friend!

As to apologies, I personally never *expect* them (but I will graciously accept when one is extended).

I haven’t read all the replies but I read your update OP where it says you’re 3 years out from Dday so I will take a different stance on it.

For me as a BS the situation stood like this: post dday I became a huge mess who at points wondered if I myself have a personality disorder or have developed one due to the trauma inflicted on me. (Later on my IC told me it is common for victims of trauma to temporarily develop/adopt bipolar disorder symptoms). One minute I’d cry on the floor wanting to die, the next my whole body would shake and my heart would race, the next I’d shout and call my WH all the names under the sun. The shouting "matches" often turned into risky behaviours, until WH learnt what I actually needed from him (drop the defensive behaviour and adopt vulnerability), by this I mean getting in the car and drive on the motorway at high speed, driving fast along country lanes with tears falling down my face, going for walks in secluded areas in the middle of the night and the list goes on.

I’ve listed all the above for context. So here is my stance on you situation. For me as an anonymous poster on a forum, it doesn’t really matter what you did to support your BS or how authentic it is on your side although it may be that you may still not get it which still trigger these reactions for your BS.

What shouts at me from the rooftops is that your BS (and I assume you by extension) is living a nightmare of a life. In my case I was emotionally harming myself with each of the behaviours displayed above. Once I would calm down, I would feel complete embarrassment that a man has brought me to this level. I’ve always felt pride that I’m an independent woman who doesn’t chase men, who can be happy in her own skin and doesn’t need a man to make her whole. And yet here I was, a complete wreck.

The more I "acted out" the more embarrassed I felt with myself (to be clear, my WH was always telling me it’s normal, I shouldn’t be so hard on myself), the more my self esteem tanked. It became clear soon enough that this isn’t the life I WANTED to live. Regardless of my WH, regardless of his actions, I knew that if I couldn’t find some sort of balance to deal with my pain in a healthier way, I should divorce and move on so I can heal away from the one that triggered those reactions.

Back to your situation: in effect your BS is living in a nightmare. To have these reactions 3 years after dday… it is a long time for her to live like this. She may have created a compulsive cycle where it is the only way she can soothe her pain, by shouting and calling you names. My heart breaks for anyone who chooses to live this way. Is she in IC?

I’m not overly concerned if you deserve an apology or not (although I’ll say this, apologising to my WH for what I said during a flooding reaction was the only way to feel slightly less embarrassed about it), however you should both be concerned that you have BOTH created a toxic relationship and assess if you should remain in it.

For me the only way I believed I was willing to come out of his infidelity still married was to see evidence of my WH moving mountains for me and that our lives and our marriage are fundamentally changed for the better.

In conclusion: I’m not one to ever put a timeline on a BS’s healing, it takes however long it takes. There comes a point though where certain raw reactions (such as calling someone names) are not fit for purpose. I don’t know exactly when that point is but I can definitely tell you that the year or so when my reactions to pain where as I described above was a year too long for me, a wasted year of my life…

I hope you two find a way to move on from this, together or apart.

ISurvivedSoFar

thank you for the words of wisdom, I do agree that once my BS is healed fairness and reasonable discourse could resume, and I hope so.

water of avaalon
I have never been in your place so I can only imagine how hard it must be for you not to react with your own anger and hurt. But please don’t. She needs to let out that pain and one of the ways you can rebuild her trust is by being there and not backing away when she shows her pain

I am doing my best, staying resolute to being there for her and giving the safe space to vent and tell me her feelings but it is difficult, as this is the only part of the conversation we ever seem to have. If I ask her to share her feelings, about her whys, so I can discuss anything she needs to move forward "how dare I ask" is the response, wont answer any questions so it becomes impossible to explore what her true feeling are. I thank you for your view points and will not back away from her in these moments. Also keep asking questions on this forum to gain more perspective. As we were at one point attempting reconcile, how can this done without us both communicating to move closer to our ultimate goal of R? This there any practical tips to get her unstuck?

NotmyfirstRodeo
Either way, you're probably the last person who can rightly look for a "fair fight" from your W. Isn't that a bit hypocritical of you?

I agree 100 percent, I am selfishly looking for a fair fight, in order to have discussions about how we move closer to R.
Although my words of "expecting" could have been taken out of context, or I could have used the word incorrectly but I did not mean look for (something) from someone as rightfully due or requisite in the circumstances. "we expect great things of you" but instead maybe await apologies was a better choice and of course to all members I will lead with grace as that would mean more to me then many could ever know as it would mark a change in behaviour inching closer to hope in R.

oh marie
While I certainly can understand a new BS's anger (name calling, verbal outbursts, etc), I do not think it's a WS's *job* to accept anger and verbal outburts for any extended length of time. In instances of continued anger, I recommend both the WS and BS seek professional help and take measures to protect themselves. Boundaries are our friend!

This is where I currently am, its been sometime now since my wife has known all the truths (3plus years) and still continue to be the person that she transmits her pain to, it seems at time many here advocate for not holding a boundary because I am the WS. Although I agree if I want R then I have to be and am prepared to listen to how my past actions have caused pain and destruction, with grace and patient. I do continue to struggle in seeing how this can still be productive for her after all this time. Maybe as other have discussed it may just be something she is stuck in for life...

Luna
In conclusion: I’m not one to ever put a timeline on a BS’s healing, it takes however long it takes. There comes a point though where certain raw reactions (such as calling someone names) are not fit for purpose. I don’t know exactly when that point is but I can definitely tell you that the year or so when my reactions to pain where as I described above was a year too long for me, a wasted year of my life…

I hope you two find a way to move on from this, together or apart.

thank you for sharing your experience, I am sorry you felt this way and seems very similar in way to my wife. If I could ask you a question, what did your WS do to move mountains, if anything to help get you past the point of that mindset.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 7:54 AM, Wednesday, September 21st]

[This message restored by Webmaster at 12:24 PM, Tuesday, September 27th]

[This message edited by Inbocaallupo at 3:42 AM, Friday, September 23rd]

Inbocaallupo

A question, you say you’re three years out. Does this mean three years from the discovery of your affair or three years since the last d-day? It makes a big difference if you’ve been trickle truthing or having multiple d-days. Every d-day resets the clock, so the anger is fresh with BS.

I am 8 years out. I’m the betrayed husband. i’ve read and listened to both sides of the drama over these years. It’s the same plot. Over and over. At the beginning , forget it. Nobody is regulating that pain. 3 years out it was part of my life. The neutrons had created the path and I ruminated about the affair often. It would build then I would lash out in an argument . I would say hurtful things and feel justified for saying them. Too this day I still feel justified. Here’s the deal. Your wife was walking home and got smoked by a drunk driver. She goes into a coma for a couple of months. Then has to do rehab Learn to walk , learn to adjust her life, learn to move around in her environment. Basically everything she had has changed through no fault of her own. The drunk driver does his time. Comes out and has changed his ways, Is a new person and wants to look forward and forget the past. But now has to push the wheelchair every single day. And look at what the consequences of their decisions and actions have done. Every day over and over. Do you think you are owed an apology? Or is it time to man up? Those who take responsibility for their actions and show empathy for those they have wronged get it. And the goal for you is to "Get it" The day I looked over at my wife and finally saw she got it was the day I could start healing. You have lost the moral high ground and nothing you can say or do is going to change that. It will be many years before you will ever even get close to the summit again. The saying "Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time" is infidelities motto. Your in the backseat now. Your wife is doing all the driving. Quit asking "Are we there yet" It annoys the hell out of the driver.

Yes Bulcy three years from the last dday. The trickle truths did happen for longer then I wish and I know that caused many deep scares. From my understanding listening to discussions with our MC, BS will not / cannot believe there isn't more info so maybe its not 3 years out in her eyes, which I attempt to be empathic about but its just not the fact, and facts are what discussions can built upon in my over simplistic estimation.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 7:54 AM, Wednesday, September 21st]

[This message restored by Webmaster at 12:24 PM, Tuesday, September 27th]

[This message edited by Inbocaallupo at 3:42 AM, Friday, September 23rd]

As a suggestion, you might want to provide more information with respect to timing and trickle truth. The vast majority (opinion) that come here with the same issues you are presenting are typically new WS looking for some platform to support themselves.

Provided you are three full years out from the last trickle truth, then you have other issues and hurdles to overcome. Assuming three years from last trickle truth

1. Have you actually been doing the work to discover your whys for both the affair/affairs?
2. Have you shared this process? Let’s be honest as we fine tune our thoughts and experience we gain more understanding.
3. Have you made the changes to you, so that you can truly show empathy and concern? Have you been honest and patient? Have you been an extraordinary person for yourself, and to her?

Given that, you do need to set boundaries, and she will need to put in the work. However, honest reflection and truth here along with background can go a long way.

I'm really bummed that the original poster of this thread deleted all their words, including the original questions and their thoughts. I read it this morning and was sharing it with my BH this afternoon when I realized what had been done. With that being said, I want to thank all of you for your input. As a WW I was, and probably still am, just like this person. So many of the same thoughts and questions I have in this painful journey were being addressed here. I hope you all continue to help us less fortunate at 'getting it' so we can recover and reconcile with the ones we hurt.
Idk if this is allowed here and please let me know if I'm overstepping any boundaries... Josiep, would you be interested in being a mentor to me? I'm desperate and need some help, a lot actually. Idk which direction is up anymore and I've screwed up so much I may be fighting a lost cause but after all the pain and suffering I've caused my BH and our children I have to continue, for their sake. I'm scared, I'm alone, im unsafe and I'm begging you for some help. If I feel this way then I can only imagine what my BH feels and for that my heart is breaking knowing thatbI'm the cause of all the pain and that I seem to be making it worse instead of better, every, single, day.
Thanks to all for reading this and thanks in advance for any responses or guidance you can give me. Have a wonderful day

Deleting posts is not allowed as outlined and clearly stated in the site guidelines. The mods will have the option of reinserting the deleted texts.

One thing about threads here in SI is that although someone might share their issue or question, then others can benefit from the answers given. With that in mind then this is my POV on this issue:

Most of us argue the way we took part in fights as kids. We argue to subdue the opponent, not to win a logical debate. We lash out to hurt rather than to get a positive result.
We all tend to do it. We might be talking with our neighbor about how they park their vehicle in front of our house and all of a sudden it’s an argument is about their trashy daughter or their barking dog or how fat they are. Its no longer about the issue or a result on that issue, but about pain.

I sometimes joke that I know my wife so well that I can say something that makes her pissed off at me for 8 hours – enough time to go fishing – but things being OK after that.

I think a couple reconciling needs to understand that there are discussions and even debates that need to take place, but the result isn’t that one wins, but that the relationship wins. That "win" might even sound negative – like a decision to divorce – but its positive in the sense that the relationship moves on.

I didn't see a response to this:

Did your BS deserve to be lied to? To be put in danger unknowingly? Because I would expect anyone wanting a fair relationship would never, ever put their partner in that position.

What is "fair" to you? Does it mean that you can stomp on your partner's feelings but when it is returned it isn't fair? Does it mean that you get to decide when your partner should stop feeling badly?

I'm not asking these questions flippantly. It is to help to gain empathy for your partner. Again I do not condone abuse - for that you can put up proper boundaries. But I think this needs to be reframed so that you don't elicit that kind of response from a person who three years later is still not trusting or perhaps getting the behavior she would expect this far out.

I agree 100 percent, I am selfishly looking for a fair fight, in order to have discussions about how we move closer to R.

...

I get what you mean. But all you can do is what you personally can do to foster R. There's literally no reasonable way that you can extract the straw from your W's eye while you have a rafter in yours. Focus on you and you alone in terms of expectations.

The best that you can *hope* for is that if you consistently make yourself safe, she may begin to warm up to you. Anything more than that could make for an argument that you believe you're entitled to something you don't deserve.

R is a gift. You can do nothing to deserve it.

Just work on making yourself safe for her, doing the hard work you need to do and accept that she may never forgive you. There's a lot of growth potential when starting from expecting nothing. It's a good time to get really familiar with how authentic humility behaves.

I hope the best for you both.

Every relationship is different. I loved my husband beyond measure and had him and us on a pedestal in my mind. I don't think I'd said so unkind word to him in 7 years before dday.

Even on dday, I still saw only the best and was devastated but not aggressive. The anger came later when he didn't adequately participate in fixing what he broke.

Like your wife, I said cruel things. I was verbally abusive. I've said things to him that make me flinch.

Did I mean them?

In a way. In the moment. But if I really meant them I wouldn't still be married.

Ask her what she needs to stop being in pain, and then give it to her. With both hands open.

What I can tell you is that unless there's practical reasons for staying, to choose R is the hardest thing in the world.

If you hurt someone like this and they choose to pay the cost, believe me: they love you.

I’m seeing a lot of passive speech here. Things like "the trickle truth continued longer…."

No. You continued to lie.

These types of statements are evidence that you are being defensive. Reconciliation begins when defensiveness ends. You’re still not even at day #1.

I know this will sound counter intuitive be here goes. . .

Her anger right now is a good thing if you wish to reconcile. Her anger shows she is emotionally invested today. Hate is not the opposite love. Indifference is the opposite of love. If she was indifferent to you then I would worry.

Anger directed at you is still communication because your relationship still has value to her.

When I was angry at my wife it was because there was deep hurt there directly porportional to how much I cared for her. The constantly checking her whereabouts, checking her devices, etc.That was all because I still cared about the relationship. Once I stopped caring and became indifferent to her that is when I started paying attorneys.

I really did not care what happended to her. I figured the kids and I had been our own for awhile anyway. Why carry the dead weight?

Unfortnately you need to let her exhaust her anger before the painful emotions underneath will be visible. At that point you may have an opening to show her that you really do care and are committed to seeing this through. That is if you actually want to stay M. If you don't then I would spare her anymore hurt and give her a chance to build a life without you.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 3:40 PM, Friday, September 30th]

1. Have you actually been doing the work to discover your whys for both the affair/affairs?
2. Have you shared this process? Let’s be honest as we fine tune our thoughts and experience we gain more understanding.
3. Have you made the changes to you, so that you can truly show empathy and concern?

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I also agree that the comment about the trickle truth was passive / unclear... A BS can get 'spidey senses" that can be SUPER sensitive to language. What may sound to you like openness, may be heard by your BS as passivity / avoiding responsibility. Then you have two 'competing' perceptions, and it's up to each party to decide how to respond/manage that. Easier said than done, but important.