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Falling, we don't know what your WW is thinking. Maybe she has moved on emotionally with someone else and is ready for the marriage to end because she has a soft landing. Maybe she is bluffing and hoping this will get you to drop it. What she is NOT is an innocent spouse who never cheated and is being bombarded with falsehoods by you. She had sexual contact by her own admission and I agree with you - likely went all the way. And I agree too that you would need her to be honest in order to move forward with her. Whatever the reason, she has decided that she would rather the marriage end than be honest with you. She would rather you shut up and take it even if it means losing you. She has been and continues to be selfish to the very end. I'm sorry to say that she does not value the marriage the same way that you do and I know how incredibly hurtful that truth is. I have lived it and survived it.

Get yourself into IC. There is a life after her. There is a better relationship out there for you. It doesn't feel like it right now because she is all you know but I can tell you from the other side that it only becomes possible once you accept that she has made her choice and let her go. It opens the door to peace and happiness in ways you can't right now imagine because you've been stuck in this misery for so long.

I want to focus on you. You appear to be riddled with anxiety. That usually comes from a toxic childhood. I don’t know what happened or did not happen when you were a child but many times there is a fear of abandonment that brings this out. You are terrified of losing her. The truth is she has already left emotionally. I’ve read everything you have written, and I see a man hanging on by his finger nails. That is not good for you. In fact, it is so detrimental to your health, mental and physical, that you need to do something about it yesterday. Have you seen a doctor about meds? I would assume there’s some thing available for anxiety and depression, two things you appear to have. If you take care of your mental and emotional health, your physical health will be better and you will be able to make rational decisions about what you genuinely need.

I actually grew up in a very loving Family. I always had everything I needed and knew that my Parents loved me and would always be there for me.
I just can not determine if my wife is honest with me about the things that I have written she has denied and held to her stories and I am some type of overthinker that has accused her of things she hasn't done to the point she is ready to end our marriage because she is sick of being falsely accused OR I have been so in Love with her that I failed to see, ignored, or refused to believe that she was capable of doing the things she has done. Have I been played since High School?
Did she marry and never actually change her ways from the wild girl I tried to show what real true love was? Did she continue to have multiple affairs with men throughout our marriage with me being blind? Did she fool me from the start? How did or could this happen?
That is my struggle, what keeps me up all night, what has me in constant and never ending questioning myself and my wife.
The instances that I have written that I suspect she has lied about are not all that has happened or questionable. She has did a lot more than what I have written.
It's the fact that I don't have proof of some of the things I have accused her of. Even though I don't have hard proof her stories or answers to some of the questions are just unbelievable to me yet she still stands by her answers and will not admit to anything that I have not had proof of. The one that I can not get over that I just cannot accept is the progress of the first affair that I caught her in. To this day if I ask her she still denies that they actually had penetrating sex.
I asked both of them. She first said, just a work friend, they met a couple times after work but only talked, he never came on to her, then he kissed me once but I told him that was wrong and he should not have done that. This was after constant questioning and demanding answers when I accidentally found there call and text logs. Admitting a little bit more each time. I met with him the next day after threatening to go to his house and tell his wife. When I met him I told him if he was honest with me I would not tell his wife. I told him my wife had told me everything that they had done and he had better be honest with me. He didn't know what she had told me. He said that they had developed a relationship, met at private parking areas several times, he said they had made out several times, he said two of the times they made out to the point they both had their hands all over each other and got to the point they were both feeling each other off to the point they both got off. He said they never had sex.
I also told that she told me they had sex, which she didn't but I wanted him to think she did and he said it never happened and said what he was telling me was the truth. I told him I knew they had told each other they loved each other, which I didn't know and asked him if he was going to admit they had told each other they loved each other and he admitted to that and said that they had told each other they loved each other.
I shook him up and went home furious that my wife had lied to me the night before and told me that as far as they went was him kissing her and her telling him that was wrong and he should not have done that. Putting her hand on a Bible a swearing on her parents and our daughter's name that that was all that happened.
When I got home I told her that I just finished talking to the pos that she had been messing around with. I told her that he told me everything they had done. She still denied it. I told her that he said they had made out on multiple occasions and she denied but finally admitted, I told her that he said they had made out to the point they had their hands on each other and got each other off. She denied it until I kept telling her he said they did and she finally admitted to doing that. I asked her how many times that happened and she said twice. I told her he said they had sex, which he didn't but I wanted her to think he did and she denied that ever happened and continues to deny they had sex to this day.
I don't have hard proof they had sex but I still don't believe either of them. Even though I can't see how they got there stories to match with me questioning both of them separately and accused both of having sex and both of them denied it ever happened.
I have struggled so hard for all these years after finding out that two adults are going to plan to meet in a secluded location, then meet, then make out, make out to the point they have each others pants open and down and they are feeling each other off and get each other off, then just clean up and button the pants back up and not do anything else. My brain will not let me accept this. How could they go that far and be that hot on each other that they would not have hot sex then and there? I know if I wasn't married and had a hot girl that had planned to meet me in a secluded location and we were making out to the point we were hands on and to the point of getting each other off, I would be having sex with her. Who would do that? I just can't imagine being in that situation and to that point and not going all the way.
That has haunted me for years and still does.
Now with the current events and all the unbelievable answers she is giving me, it has put me in the position I am in today.
I think I am actually driving myself crazy trying to find the truth about who my wife really is.
I want to be able to trust my wife and just love her and for her to love me and for us to be happy. That is my dream.
What I don't want is to be fooled and have a wife that doesn't really love me because she is always going to always be messing around with other men and doing things that I don't know about with them.
Am I crazy and driving my wife away by accusing her of things she hasn't done or doing?
Or
Am I finally waking up to the fact that my perfect wife is actually someone who never really loved me and never will?
I could go to therapy and tell any specialist what I have just wrote and all the other things I have written. I don't see how they could change the way I feel and how confused my life is now.
It is truly killing me and I hurting so much.
I am a grown man and a big fit tuff guy yet this is ripping my heart and soul out of me to the point I no longer have much joy in my life that can help me overcome the doubt and fear I have now. It sucks. Why can a man and a woman not be happy married and just be happy and content with their spouse without sneaking around having an affair with someone else?
I could never do this and don't know how anyone could do this to someone they are married to.
I just don't understand how anyone could do something like this.
It's the worst pain I have ever felt or experienced in my life. The problem is that I can not forget and live with the pain daily.

Only she knows if there is more or not. The problem is that she is commited to lie. It is hardwired into her brain, so you will never know or be able to trust her.

What is your life with her currently? Besides rugsweeping, do you have any meaningful connection, conversations, sex? Trying to understand what keeps your marrige alive apart of high school chemistry.

Do you do any therapy to understand where your emotions are coming from? From what I am reading I could imagine that you took her from bad circumstances and belived that you "saved" her and now you can't reconcile partial defeat and the cognitive bias that comes from it is eating you alive.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 8:44 AM, Monday, October 2nd]

It just came to my mind, that I also had a GF in highschool that looked like an angel and had layers to uncover. Lucky for me she let me be the 1st person for which she uncovered some of them and I was smart enough to not step on a landmine.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 9:18 AM, Monday, October 2nd]

My wife and I get along great as long as I am not questioning anything she does. If I do she gets mad and defensive. The connection we once had is not what it used to be.
The feeling I get is that I am low on her priority list. It's just not what it used to be.
We still do things together and have fun together. We still have a lot of laughs together. We have sex a lot more than most couples our age and she will very seldom turn me down anytime I ask. The only thing is, is that she never asks me or comes on to me first. Never. Only when I make the first move or ask. When we do have sex I feel like she just wants to get it overwith.
My emotions are coming from the possibility that my wife has played me since high school and that she has another side to her that never stopped with messing around with other men. I feel like I may have wasted my life on her with all the love and work I put into this marriage trying to make her happy while I also think she may have never loved me but used me for her security while she still had men on the side.
Like I said in the previous post.
I have suspected she has had more than one affair on me with other red lights that happened a few other times. I only had proof of one. I have read that the first time you catch your spouse cheating is probably not the first time they cheated. It's just the first time they got caught.
I am thinking I am a real fool and how stupid I was for being so trusting and blind.
My heart gets ripped out thinking she didn't really love me all this time when I love her so much and just kills me because she means so much to me. I want her love so much because she has been my life and the only girl I have ever loved. It is really hard for me.
Just beyond words that I can write to describe the hurt and pain I feel. Wanting someone so much to love me the way I love her.

I can also say this as far as bringing her out of a bad situation.
I am not putting myself on a pedestal when I say this.
She would not be where she is today if it had not been for me. She would likely be dead or a prostitute on drugs.
I showed her what a functioning Family was, I showed true love and gave her a Family that that took her in and loved her like she had never experienced.
She would have never met the people that were influential in her career path if it wasn't for me and my Family.
Yes I feel severe hurting emotions when I think about what I have done for her and the possibility I have been blind and a fool for her love.

I also ask myself how could she do the things she has done to me knowing what I have done for her, knowing that I truly loved her, knowing that I would always be true and be there for her?
How could she do the worst possible thing imaginable to me that has crushed me?
I just don't understand how anyone could do that or why they would do such a horrible thing when they are treated so well.
I just don't get it.
How was I fooled?

Thank you for clarification. So you made the very sens of your life depend on the feelings of a troubled person?

I am asking that question, because you seem very codependend. I'm not a therapist nor a coach, but you should get one man and realy work on shifting your perspective. You don't seem to be in a mental state that can do any positive change in any direction.

Please consider to give yourself a bit of that love you feel for her and start working On saving yourself.

She didn't have everyone fooled.
I remember when we were dating, just like it was yesterday, three of my close friends told me that I could do better.
Four different girlfriends I had told me that she wasn't good enough for me and told me she would hurt me some day.
How did I just ignore six different good friends that are telling me this and just completely ignore them?
Does she have a spell on me or something?
I have secerously asked myself that.

Does she have a spell on me or something?
I have secerously asked myself that.

Please find a wizard that will go down the rabbit hole with you.

I also would like to emphesize that your problem is YOU. You need to focus on YOU. You can't save a ho if you are not secure in yourself and can't even look at reality as it is.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 10:54 AM, Monday, October 2nd]

I want to be able to trust my wife and just love her and for her to love me and for us to be happy. That is my dream.
What I don't want is to be fooled and have a wife that doesn't really love me because she is always going to always be messing around with other men and doing things that I don't know about with them.
Am I crazy and driving my wife away by accusing her of things she hasn't done or doing?
Or
Am I finally waking up to the fact that my perfect wife is actually someone who never really loved me and never will?

Look closely at these two scenarios. You are setting up a dynamic in which she is either the devil, constantly cheating, never loved you, just staying with you to torture you OR an angel who is being driven mad by her paranoid husband. Neither is true. You are looking for a smoking gun that you will not find because neither is true. She is not innocent. She has cheated. She has lied. She is still lying and possibly has been cheating more recently than you are aware of because it is a pattern for her. She thinks she loves you but her love does not include fidelity. It doesn't include honesty. It doesn't include respect. And she doesn't love those other guys either. She loves their validation and she trades sex for validation. She trades sex with you too since you can see that it's not really about her pleasure.

That reality is hard to accept because it doesn't give you a solid answer on what you can do. You can't fully commit to leaving because there is love and care still in there even if it's messed up. You can't fully commit to staying because she's not giving you fidelity, honesty, or respect and it's very difficult to be in a relationship without those key components. You have enough evidence in front of you though to make a choice - either buy what she's selling, keep the marriage as is, risk being cheated on more OR don't and find someone whose love does include fidelity, honesty, and respect. Until you're ready to accept that this is far as it gets with her and decide based on that, you will keep driving yourself crazy looking for something you're not going to find and wishing she will change into someone she's not.

She loves their validation and she trades sex for validation. She trades sex with you too since you can see that it's not really about her pleasure.

This.

I went over some of your posts. Jerking off in a car realy doesn't sound like living your best life, much more like a lost 15yo stumbling through life. Old habits die hard I guess.

As I said, I'm not a therapist or coach or something, but do you think engaging in some kind of sad copium sex is positive for your well being? Maybe some chastity would do you better?

These are questions that an experienced person may help you with besides getting in terms with the fact that many people have less spine then you and your W isn't the best of them either.

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 8:31 PM, Monday, October 2nd]

That reality is hard to accept because it doesn't give you a solid answer on what you can do. You can't fully commit to leaving because there is love and care still in there even if it's messed up. You can't fully commit to staying because she's not giving you fidelity, honesty, or respect and it's very difficult to be in a relationship without those key components. You have enough evidence in front of you though to make a choice - either buy what she's selling, keep the marriage as is, risk being cheated on more OR don't and find someone whose love does include fidelity, honesty, and respect. Until you're ready to accept that this is far as it gets with her and decide based on that, you will keep driving yourself crazy looking for something you're not going to find and wishing she will change into someone she's not.

I said in a previous post that I was a thinker. This is my life at the moment.
I really is driving me crazy and that is what I am having such a hard time with.
Not having real proof is what has me so messed up and has me in this loop I can not break out of.
Even though all the things she has done and currently doing makes it look as if my wife is not the person I always dreamed she was, I don’t have the full proof that my accusations are really true. Yes all the signs are there along with her behavior is are red flags and I have caught her in many lies but the real proof of her actually having an affair now is something I don't have but my gut is screaming something is up because she isn't the same.
My loop is this
I have accused my wife of so much that she hasn't done that she is to the point of shutting down and refusing to even talk about it and ready to leave me.
Or
Even though all the things I have found indicates my wife is not the person I thought she was and she has fooled me from the start.
In all my previous posts I have explained all the things that I have found and the things I have caught her lieing to me about.
It screams she is a lieing cheat that has always done nothing but fool me. Even with all this the problem is that I don't have hard evidence that she is actually cheating.
I am in constant debate with myself about who my wife really is.
Like the quote above from a previous reply. I have enough to highly suspect my wife has always lied to me and has always cheated and is still doing it due to me being a fool for her love or I am the one that is crazy and it is me that is the one who is destroying this marriage.
I need help ascertaining this.
As I said I love my wife and it is still my dream for us to be happy and have a happy marriage but I don't want to be a doormat for my wife is she is going to be screwing around on me with other men the coming home to me and using me for a secure landing pad.
I have questioned myself as far as being fooled by her. Maybe I don't even know what it's like to have someone who really loves me as much as I love them. Maybe I have never known true love and had any real piece in my life. Maybe I was so in love with her from the start and I dreamed of having a beautiful life with her so much that it was truly a dream life I created in my head that was never reality.
The problem is that even now after all that I have been through with her I still have the same dream and I still love her. As I just said, maybe I really don't know what true love is and don't know what a happy worry free life with a wife that loves me as much as I love her really is.
I love my wife and want us to be happy but I don't want to be the fool who will never know what a happy life is because I don't ever wake up from a dream and accept true reality.
When I come here and post all these messages it's because I am afraid of making wrong decisions that are going to impact the rest of my life. I really need help. I need to hear the stories of individuals who were just like me and hear how their lives turned out after they either stayed in their marriage or left the marriage and perhaps found the real true love of their lives and found out what true happiness really is.

Said it many times and I'll say bit again. Hire P.I.

It may cost you some money but it will save your sanity!

Find the money, borrow it if you have to.

I can't understand why you keepngoing around in circles when you have options.

Even ask a friend to follow her, if need be, but stop going around in circles.

Forgive me if this was already covered, but OP have you asked your WW to write a comprehensive & detailed timeline and then had her undergo a poly confirming both it’s veracity and exhaustiveness? If not, why not?

I knew a guy who was so wrapped up in being sure the newborn wasn’t his he ended up killing himself. He was in deep depression. Who knows what the truth was. In his case, a simple test would have given him an answer. But he was too wrapped around the axle.

Your posts are starting to read like that guy. Why is it implausible that they got caught before they screwed? Isn’t what she did bad enough to divorce her?

If this has been a festering sore for 12 years she should be happy to get a poly if it will save the marriage. If she refuses you have your answer. Why has this not been on the table from day 1?

In any event, I see a guy who is so wrapped around the axle he is seeing no way out. Get some professional help before you go any deeper down the rabbit hole.

What happened to the test of the paper towels the rose was in? The semen test?

What happened to the results of the test for semen on the wadded together paper towels you found?