SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

8 years ago my husband had an EA. They were "in love". He didn't plan to leave me, but thoroughly enjoyed being in love with someone else. As far as I know it was never physical, but I know he could have lied- I didn't track him and he had a lot of independence. His AP was significantly younger, an alcoholic, and just a mess. Right after I found out about the EA she developed cancer and died pretty quickly so I knew she was out of his life. He did all the things- ceased contact, worked on himself, our marriage improved, etc.

Some interesting things have happened since then. My husband decided he was an alcoholic and completely stopped drinking. He was correct. He finally has his dream job and a successful career- only took 20 years of working to get him there. We are new empty nesters- our youngest is a freshman in college. The past 10 years have been filled with launching children and helping to care for other family members who had aged or were ill and building careers. I had been a SAHM and now work full time too in a busy career that I love.

Over the past year or so my husband has proclaimed several things out of the blue. He decided he has autism. He went from one political party to the other. He became an atheist. It seemed so weird that he would decide these things and I was a bit hurt/confused that he made these decisions without processing with me. Instead these were proclamations. I've talked to my adult kids about this and they all say he lives in his head a lot- I agree. He doesn't have a lot of friends, works independently so doesn't see coworkers often, and spends a lot of time at home. He often states that he doesn't really like people- they disappoint him.

We are new empty nesters and I thought have been spending the past couple of months figuring out this next stage. The normal couple things- shopping trips to Costco, dates to the theater, dinner out, attending sporting events, visiting our kids, watching movies on the couch, etc. My husband works from home half time and goes into the office half time. I work full time. I thought things were going OK. I felt like we needed to keep working on connecting after years of being busy with family and kids, but I also felt like we were doing that and were content.

Fast forward to yesterday. I had to go into my husband's work bag for something and found a condom. We don't use them so no reason to have them. I also found a vape pen and cigarettes. I immediately went onto his computer to see if there was anything on there- during his last EA I discovered Facebook messaging and a pinterest page that outed the affair. This time it was Twitter messaging. I only went back 2 months because there were so many messages. This time was a little different. It was a LOT of political discussion and sending articles to back their political beliefs many times a day. I could put up with the political messaging, but found in between messages things like- I'll leave here by 4:00, a couple of I Love You's and a few I miss yous. There was also lots of discussion of day to day stuff- things he would also report to me. And of our kids using nicknames that typically he only used when he was talking to me or family. And some discussion of smoking and being high. I looked back about 2 months worth of conversations and then decided I needed to confront him.

I woke him up and told him he had one chance to tell me what was going on with him. He looked startled and said he had no clue what I was talking about. He admitted to vaping. I went on to tell him what I had seen and he said that yes, he had visited her a few times in the past year and that they discuss politics and smoke. She is his former assistant at a job he left 5 years ago- the same job where he had the other EA. I knew he had seen his former co-workers a couple of times a year at meetings. I always had an uneasy feeling about this person for some reason, but no real reason to as I didn't know she was so present him my husband's life. The things that had concerned me in the past is once she was struggling with alcoholism and my husband said he needed to and take her to the hospital so she could be admitted. I told him at that time that it wasn't his job and he needed to call her family to have them come and help her. We talked then about boundaries with coworkers. Her name really didn't come up often, but recently his former office was moving and there was some furniture he wanted. She was coordinating the move and he rented a truck to help her. I told him this was all crazy and a waste of his time as he didn't work there anymore and we didn't need the furniture, but he wanted it. He had our adult son with him so he didn't go alone.

After a bunch of discussion yesterday he has admitted that he was messaging this person on a daily basis, but that they are just friends. He enjoys talking to her because she shares his political beliefs and has the same sense of humor. (the last woman had the same sense of humor too according to him). He said he is not interested romantically in her- that she is just his best friend. There was also a message that referred to getting high so I asked about that and he admitted to smoking with her a couple of times. It also came out that she had given him edibles that he consumed while home with our family over Thanksgiving. He has said he has only visited her a few times this year. But messages as recently as 3 days ago said I miss you and I'll leave here by 4. He claims he never made it to her house. I have no idea.

So now I guess I know who he has been processing all of his new beliefs with. The thing is I would completely believe that this has been another EA, but there was a condom. He says he doesn't know why he has a condom him his backpack. He has no clue where it came from. I also found a message to another female coworker that thanked her for being such a great friend. So who knows. My husband just keeps saying that he is broken and he doesn't know what is wrong with him. He has said he is done talking to anyone outside of our family. He also said he would do anything I want. He would move in with his parents and give me everything. He would stay and only talk with family.

The things I see recurring is he definitely gets something from working with people who are needy and in worse shape mentally than he is. Says these people "need his help". Yesterday I pointed out that he may feel like he is helping these people but I get destroyed in the process so who is helping me? I believe that he loves me. I also think I intimidate him. I don't mean to, but I have my life pretty under control- I don't have the "flaws" he has- I don't drink, I don't have autism, I have a successful job, I'm a good mom, I'm not sneaky, etc. I don't taunt him with this, but I live this and I think he deviates to women who are a mess to make him feel good about himself.

Not sure where to go from here. I want my family. I guess lots of therapy?

Your cheating husband clearly needs to cheat to validate his life. You being a great wife just doesn’t cut it for him. He needs the thrill of the EA/PA. That he has proven over the years.

He had a condom b/c he needed a condom. Period. He knows how it got there.

You now have to decide what is more important to you. Him. The intact family. The day to day life you have.

Or do you want to be free from a cheating selfish spouse and live a life without his "issues" in your face?

He can make all the promises he wants. Who knows if he will stick to them. But it really doesn’t matter if he does or doesn’t cheat/lie etc. He has shattered ANY trust you had in him.

Maybe a professional counselor is your best choice to help you navigate this.

Your husband might have autism or he might not but one thing he does have is a cheating brain. He enjoys all the sneaking around and having someone tell him he’s so smart on getting him into smoking, doing some little cannabis, and in general being about 15 years old.

If he was always like this then he will always be like this but if this is fairly new behavior then you might get him to a doctor for an evaluation. I frankly think he is just a cheater.

One of the hardest things for most of us to accept is that the person we married a few years ago or many years ago has always been this person. If they have a good morals, strong boundaries, they are probably going to be dependable all of our lives. If they have a roving eye and porous boundaries they’re going to cheat. You cannot fix them and you cannot change them. We are basically who we grow up to be. Moral or immoral. That is who we are and who they are.

This is your life. You take care of yourself. Sleep, eat healthy and no alcohol.

The things I see recurring is he definitely gets something from working with people who are needy and in worse shape mentally than he is. Says these people "need his help".

Look up "Knight in Shining Armor" or "White Knight" syndrome. This is actually a whole thing, believe it or not.

I'm so sorry you had to find us, but glad you did. There's quite a bit of information to be found in The Healing Library, so you might want to read there, and certainly, you'll want to pay attention to the bits about self-care. It's so important. This kind of stress is so hard on the body. It's good to talk to your doctor about stress management and unfortunately, you'll need to get STD testing as well. While it's not impossible that your WH drew the line at sex, it does seem farfetched. There's motive, means, and opportunity, not to mention the found condom which appears to have just crept into his bag on it's own.

Frankly, I would see an attorney too. I know it's early days, but knowledge is power and you don't know how you might end up feeling about all this once you've had time to absorb it. The kneejerk response for most of us is to try and save the marriage and return the status quo. That doesn't always hold over time, and in practice, there will come a point later on when you'll need to take ownership of your choice to stay if that's what you decide. It's that ownership of your own agency which will help to strengthen you. So yeah, I think it's important for every new BS to really explore the options.

Over the past year or so my husband has proclaimed several things out of the blue. He decided he has autism. He went from one political party to the other. He became an atheist. It seemed so weird that he would decide these things and I was a bit hurt/confused that he made these decisions without processing with me.

I think it's pretty obvious that your WH has been taking imprinting from the OW. My fWH had developed all sorts of bizarre "interests" that weren't innate to his personality. The mechanics are obvious. It's all about flattery and ass-kissing. Also, they need to "other" the BS and justify the affair, so there's that piece. For the BS it feels so gross and invasive. His new "changes" are likely to be triggers for you going forward like the OW is still lurking in your home somehow, so I think a good portion of recovery would be working through that. If he's determined to hang onto the new outlook, there's no way to differentiate that from hanging onto waywardness and the OW.

He says he doesn't know why he has a condom him his backpack. He has no clue where it came from. I also found a message to another female coworker that thanked her for being such a great friend. So who knows. My husband just keeps saying that he is broken and he doesn't know what is wrong with him. He has said he is done talking to anyone outside of our family. He also said he would do anything I want. He would move in with his parents and give me everything. He would stay and only talk with family.

Here, in just one paragraph, you can SEE the truth about his promises to "do anything". That condom didn't grow legs and walk into his bag. He's promising you he'll do anything you ask at the very same time he's refusing to do what you ask of him. You asked him to tell you the truth and he refused. It's not rational that he doesn't know where that condom came from.

I think you might be wise to put him to the test on his offer. Set up a polygraph test and see if his willingness to "do anything" includes proving that he's being truthful. Talk to an attorney about getting a post-nup infidelity clause, so that if he's caught taking up with the OW or with another you get a golden parachute.

I'm sorry you're going through this. The important thing to remember is that you're going to be okay. I know it doesn't seem like it just now, but you'll get through it. It's hard and it sucks, but we're all still here and you will be too.

((hugs))

He’s lying about so many things. Condoms don’t just appear in a bag out of nowhere. He’s having sex with her in what sounds like an affair-fueled midlife crisis. With his history of cheating and lying, I would tell him straight up that you don’t believe a word he says. Then I would 180 and consult a lawyer. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

Do you actually want to stay married to this man?
He is
a/ full of it
b/ childish
c/ hangs around those people to feel superior
d/ is probably a covert narc

Yes speak to your counselor and if he has somewhere else to go ask him to whilst you sort out what you want to do.

Sorry you need to be here.

Your WH is playing you. You already have the experience from the affair 8 years ago. Use that to your advantage.

You seem to want the marriage and stability at all costs, since you already forgiven him once and now that he is at it again you seem to be willing to do the same again from what I "read" from your writtings.

Please, don't take this the wrong way - but you need to change the approach this time around. If you do not change the approach your WH will also not change - because he notices there are (and there will not be) no consequences for his miss behaviour.

He does not know how that condom got there? Ok... Similar to the guys (or girls) who stumble across a furniture leg and land straight on some OPs sexual organs..."Ups. I did not mean to do that. Ups..." Do not for a minute believe that sh3#t! He is disrespecting you. You need to put an end to that.

You need to get mad. You need to get angry. You need to step back and protect yourself from him.

He needs therapy. Loads of it. But he needs to want to do it on his own - for his own well being.

And you need to let him go - at least for a while, until you figure out if the relationship as it was can be salvaged.

Don't engage in intimacy with him.

Test yourself for STDs.

Require a complete wtitten timeline for the affair.

Eat the best you can, drink plenty of water, Exercise the best you can (long walks, walks with the dogs), spend time with the kids/family/friends. Take care of Yourself. And don't let yourself be second choice. Get back in the drivers seat and drive your life forward to the best of your abilities.

In the end, you will be ok. No matter what.

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 7:58 PM, Sunday, December 11th]

Jendo, I'm so sorry you're experiencing another heinous betrayal after investing 8 more years into the marriage. I totally get the WTF response when betrayal happens while transitioning to empty nesting. It is particularly shitty that our husbands chose to betray us right when they should once again be turning TOWARDS us. After 28 years of hard fought team work and personal sacrifice, I too hoped our empty nest phase would be dedicated to spending time together, to joyfully rediscovering each other. After 28 years of being excellent wifeys what was our reward? Our husbands chose to indulge themselves with selfish affairs based entirely on vapid ego stroking. My H had no intention to leave me either. But he sure did enjoy the flattery OW dished out.

I know this is harsh, but I call baloney on both EA scenarios - my internal alarm bells are ringing. He had a condom in his bag....."I love you" was bandied about...... Yes, anything is possible. Maybe they didn't have sex. No one knows for sure but your H and his APs. But, does that matter? EAs are like courting. It's not okay for your husband to court someone else while married to you. Even if both betrayals didn't cross the line into a PA, the emotional betrayal is just as damaging to your relationship. I know you desperately want to believe your husband – I wanted to believe my husband too. BUT adults with functioning body parts and libidos like to have sex. Most men don’t invest themselves in an EA with an OW they’re attracted to unless there's a physical component. In other words, it's a stretch to believe he carried on month’s long EAs with these women because they were buddies. He had proximity and opportunity during both betrayals. They usually don’t just "visit" and play Monopoly when they do meet face to face. Perhaps these EAs are what he’s copped to because you don't have proof sex happened? Right out of the Cheater's Handbook - only admit to what is known - or prove-able.

You've been down this road before. Sounds like things were resolved quickly the first time around because first OW died soon after discovery, correct? However the first betrayal was handled, that approach didn't work because here you are again. Things have got to change. What do YOU really want? Is keeping the status quo intact really worth sacrificing your dignity and making your needs so small? See an attorney - explore all your options including divorce, separation, or an iron clad post nup. Take control! You don't have to put up with this again.

Yes, see a therapist (just for you! NOT marriage counseling) to help sort out YOU. Why you aren't outraged that he's done this again. I don't see much outrage or anger in your post. I only see resignation "we've discussed this, this is who he is, I want our family". Don't settle! Time to get angry and use that anger as a motivator to get yourself out of infidelity.

Hugs to you Jendo.

ETA:

When it comes to taking care of yourself after infidelity it's always better to be safe than sorry. Don't want to frighten you, but I feel compelled to share some information. Don't blindly believe a now proven repeat liar; that no sex happened with first OW. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. This second A and the condom certainly casts doubt on what supposedly went down during the first A. Believing him could be putting your life at risk. I read a post you made in 2018. First OW died of cervical cancer. While the presence of human papilloma virus (HPV) doesn't necessarily cause cervical cancer, a large majority of cervical cancer - more than 95% - is due to HPV(source = World Health Organization 2022). So, there's a 95% probability 1st OW's cervical cancer was caused by HPV. Consistent use of condoms can help prevent the transmission of HPV. You found a condom in his bag, but that doesn't mean he used condoms IF he had sex with first OW. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Better safe than sorry. Get tested for STDs ASAP and be sure HPV is part of that. HPV can lie dormant in the body for years, and trigger cancers years after infection. Seems prudent to include a separate HPV test during all annual cervical screening going forward. PAP smears don't test for HPV.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 4:33 AM, Wednesday, December 21st]

...but there was a condom. He says he doesn't know why he has a condom him his backpack.

Go big or go home, as they say in the world of lying.

I admire his audacity. "Gosh, how'd that get here?"

Jendo, I looked back in your previous history and it looks like one of the things your husband agreed to was no more female friends. He has obviously broken that boundary. I know you think you have an issue with being codependent, but it might be time to do the 180. You know you're worth better treatment, and it's time he was made to realize this. He can promise everything, but only actions are what count. Take care of yourself and make it clear that this behavior will no longer be tolerated. I also agree with everyone else on the condom. He knows how it got in his bag and he knows the intent.

You are definitely right in that your husband has a really hard time understanding boundaries. I think he might be trying to discover himself and is, like he said, doing it outside of his family.

You have lots of time to figure this out, you do not need to make quick decisions.

You seem like you have such a great outlook on life, is this man who you really want to be with? I ask that as a serious question, because it seems like he doesn't respect you or your time. But, he seems a little lost too and I know empty nesting can be a good time of reflection. Ask yourself if you are really happy with him...if not, separate - you don't have to go right to divorce. Time apart can be a really really good thing and you can do it without blowing up the relationship. Get some perspective.

The condom thing is a problem, don't lose sight of it. Either he brought it "just in case" he got lucky or he used one. Either way...not a great thing! I don't believe it just magically appeared in his bag.

I hope these questions help. Overall, take your time, reflect, and do what makes you happy. You have this opportunity to change your life if you want to.

I don’t think the cheating husband has an "issue with boundaries".

I think he is just the kind of person that is going to do whatever he wants under the guise of " I deserve to be happy". He’s going to get exactly what he wants despite the fact that he continues to lie and disrespect his wife.

The condom would be the dealbreaker for me. If he chooses to lie about that, there is NOTHING to work with and this is a marriage in name only.

The CH has no intent in being monogamous or honest. Actions speak louder than words.

I've carried condoms when I had hopes, but the condom never got used (mainly before W2b & I committed to each other, but once when I only thought I'd get W2b into bed ), but I always knew how I got 'em. I see a lie here, and that lying is a giant red flag.

Another giant red flag is his taking on the Victim role in declaring he's so broken. Yet another is breaking his agreement to have no female friends. Another still is smoking dope when he knows he's an alcohol addict.

IMO, he's not a decent candidate for R at this point, and that's a big loss for both of you.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:44 PM, Monday, December 12th]

I'd tell you the same thing I'd tell a newbie. But going to encourage you to take action immediately vs waiting to see .... You have already done that and he has proven he isn't going to dig deep and do the work to be a trustworthy partner.

1. He is blatantly lying about the condom and the whole situation.
2. See your Dr get STD testing and get full testing including pelvic, and blood work.
3. See an attorney and learn your rights.
4. He is an addict replacing one substance w/ another, he whit3e knuckled it until he found something else.
5. He is addicted w/ building these relationships to be the KISA.

RUN!!!!

So sorry you find yourself here.

Cheaters 101 is deny, deny, deny, change the subject, attack, make themselves the victim. Read up on the DARVO technique.

A helpful tactic when questioning a liar is to state flatly, "Do not underestimate what I already know." Followed by a cold, unblinking gaze. Never reveal what you know or how you know. Respond to each revelation with a semi-incredulous, "Really?!?!, while you take notes as they realize you are recording their responses. You follow up with open ended questions like "Anything else?" or "What happened next?" They will always tell on themselves. All the best to you.

Jendo, IMO labeling himself autistic, and the abrupt about face on intrinsic core values of religion and political party is a red flag. He's not a lost soul discovering himself. This extreme chameleon-like behavior seems off - feels more significant than the typical cheater "flattery and ass kissing" Chamomile Tea mentioned. Different from the usual AP hobbies/interests cheaters like to mirror - like a Heavy Metal aficionado pretending to like K-Pop, a conservative dresser sporting swanky new hipster togs, or a dedicated couch-potato suddenly training for a marathon. What his identity switcheroo points to I dunno. Maybe he's an empty vessel - a conformist people-pleaser willing to absorb her identity to kiss ass. Or maybe he's a covert narc excessively mirroring the latest narcissistic supply. Whatever the motivation for adopting this Zelig persona, it is troubling.

Addiction is one big red flag. Yeah, the KISA stuff may be part of the addictive appeal. He probably did get an ego boost because these gals were a hot mess - and by comparison he wasn't. BUT it's worth noting the common denominator the two OW and your H share is substance abuse. First OW was an "alcoholic mess", second OW was hospitalized for "struggling with alcoholism". Your H is an alcoholic who swapped alcohol for another substance (after cannabis tutorials from second OW?). When he and second OW "visited"(cough cough) they GOT HIGH. Bet he partied with 1st OW as well. That could be the key appeal of these OW - they enabled each other's addictions. Was he using and boozing tit for tat while they fed his ego?

Your observation "he often states that he doesn't really like people- they disappoint him" is also troubling. Does he think he's always the smartest person in the room, all his bosses are idiots out to get him, etc.?

Whatever. Let all this go.

It's not your job to untangle him. The professional help he needs is way above wife pay grade. Only he can untangle himself. Hopefully with the support of a competent therapist.

My theorizing is to help you see some of his behaviors so you will never again un-see them. This is who he is. You gave him the precious gift of reconciliation for eight years. Plenty of time and opportunity to work towards change. Instead, he chose to not address those flapping red flags. Please stop buying into explanations for "flaws" (autism!?) he's been pedaling - and stop searching for reasons to explain away his choices. Certainly stop blaming yourself. Sure, you have your life under control. That's no excuse to groom multiple OW. You recently found a suspicious message to ANOTHER female "friend". As my W. Virginia grandma said "hounds will hunt." Is he queuing up the next AP?

He may have addictions, but this doesn't make him a victim. He has agency - all his executive functions are intact. He knows "what is wrong with him" (like he knows how the condom materialized) - he's choosing to lie and cheat because he gets something out of it. Calling himself "broken" says he's not taking responsibility for his CHOICES. He's the VICTIM. See how that works? Easy Peasy. So, he'll need "help" to fix this so called brokenness. Which conveniently puts the ball in your court (so to speak). His proposal "He has said he is done talking to anyone outside of our family...... He would stay and only talk with family" is NOT a realistic solution. Unless he works hard to make deep, meaningful and measurable change in his thinking, he'll be white-knuckling it until the next OW crosses his path. Jendo, this is worth repeating - it's not your job to fix him. He's already had 8 years to look inside and do the work to be a safe partner. If this is who he is, does he deserve more of your precious life? He's shown you who he is with his repeated actions. Best to believe him. Your new job is to take care of YOU for a change.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 9:25 PM, Thursday, December 15th]

Thank you all for your insight and advice. Our kids of course are home from college now for break and we are both really busy at work making it a bit challenging to address US, but I do know we have lots of talking and work to do.

He sent a message to the woman he was chatting with letting her know that he had disrespected his wife and his family and that he would no longer be chatting with her. He deleted his Twitter account. He claims he is going to work really hard on being a better person and apologizes for not being respectful of me or our marriage. In the past week he has started dressing professionally again, has been more intentional with spending time with me and our family, he seems more focused at work and less distracted by things like "the news", etc.

I do like the changes he's made, but I also need him to understand that we've been through this before. He made all of these changes before and somehow slipped back into some of his old behaviors. We have done some talking although we really need to do more. He still claims that he wasn't in love with this person and just was saying "I love you" like one would to a friend. The I love yous are hard for me. Last time he flat out told me that he wasn't in love with me and played a whole I love you game with the former OW. So the fact that he was I love you-ing with another woman again is what took my breath away. He had stopped telling me he loved me, but said he did that because he felt like he "Broke that phrase" with me in in his other affair and didn't want to make me uncomfortable. It's just all so confusing. I do feel like he loves me, but I feel very disrespected and very distrustful of him. The thing is last time our lives were a mess- we had no money, we were renting a home, our kids were younger and crazy busy. This time our lives are under control. We live in a brand new home, are comfortable financially, and really everything else is going well.

What he has come clean with at this point- he visited her at her house 3 times this year and had plans to go again soon. No one else was home when he was there. He did not stay long. He went because he missed her and wanted to talk to her. He liked that they have the same sense of humor and political views. He liked her dog. He took one hit off of a joint at her house and smoked once with her at work years ago. She also gave him some edibles recently. His chatting with her, from what I read, was mostly political and like day to day type stuff- updates on kids, things he told me too. It's like he was sharing the same info with both of us. It was NOT the gushy lovey stuff that he had been doing with the former OW, but I did read a couple of I love yous and a few I miss yous. All from him to her. I don't recall seeing any of it reciprocated. But she sent tons, and tons of political stuff. Like they were sending politically charged information all day and all night 24/7. He claims no sex, no kissing, they did hug in a just friends way.

This is all bringing up so many bad memories from the former OW who he said he did think he was in love with at that time. Ouch. I still don't understand how last time he dropped someone he was in love with so fast- he did. I know he didn't see her again or talk to her again once he stopped contact with her. She was diagnosed with cancer literally the next week and passed away with in a couple of months (and was young- 29). He showed no emotion about this- at least not to me. And that is weird too.

I'm hoping to find some time to talk this weekend and plan to schedule some counseling for after the holidays. I don't want this to slip by and be minimized. Even if he wasn't in love with her and was just friends like he claims it still was inappropriate. I don't trust him. I love him. I love my life with my kids and my house and my family and the thought of what our marriage had the potential to be, but he scares me too. I don't want to be a fool and want to make sure that we address these things. That he makes changes that can last and that he is honest with himself about what has happened here and why.

[This message edited by jendo at 5:23 PM, Friday, December 16th]

So what's his plan? What is he going to do different this time? Whatever he did last time clearly wasn't enough. So what is he doing to become a safe person?

His story sounds unbelievable. I highly recommend you have him take a polygraph. The chances this wasn't physical are very,very slim.

Jendo, what about the promise made last time around - no more female friends?

Maybe he did have sex with her, maybe he didn't. Maybe he did party with her, maybe he didn't.

He DID lie to you and did NOT keep that all important promise. He has TWO female friends you know about.

He's ready and willing to dissemble and equivocate about what you can't prove - he didn't love her, didn't party with her, didn't get physical with her blah blah blah to distract from the huge elephant in the room -----He was definitely inappropriate with her, and he was definitely, per his admission, 100% full on friends with her. A SECRET best friend. Which broke that boundary. You’re his wife. The “best friend” role is yours! He is not supposed to share emotional intimacies like this with another woman. Even if he's telling the truth about the emotional/physical stuff (which is a stretch), don't lose sight of this HUGE breach of trust. This BIG lie casts shade on the truth he's supposedly telling doesn't it?

You're not me :-), but two secret female friends after reconciliation would be a deal breaker.There's a saying around here - sometimes to save the marriage, you must be willing to lose the marriage. This was true for me, and perhaps it's true for you as well. After H's betrayal I was ready to divorce his ass. He knew I meant it when I said it, too. He knows with 100% certainty if he betrays me again, I am out of here, our assets will be split and SEE YA. No more female friends, no more texting, none of that. He got rid of ALL social media on his own, which was a big deal. We had to reinvent our marriage as well. Consequences! And he had to be all in or I was gone. Here's the thing - he didn't make promises because he was scrambling to save the marriage. Fear of losing our life together certainly lit a fire under him, but fear of consequences wasn't the sole motivation. HE knew he had to take responsibility for his choices. Not just to save our marriage but to help himself.

Sex or no sex, I love you or no I love you exchanged - your H lied and disrespected the marriage FOR THE SECOND TIME in a deliberate, selfish way. You said "I could put up with the political messaging" - are YOUR boundaries wobbly? Jendo, you must know if there's no consequences for his choices yet AGAIN, he's likely to do it again. If you don't hold your boundaries firm (NO female friends EVER -PERIOD) he seems like the type to push them. He knows you love him and want to keep family and lifestyle intact. Sounds like consequences were rug swept last time around because first OW died; she was no longer a threat. You seem waaaay too willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for just about anything. So, be wary - he may assume he can placate you, play nice for a while to lull you into a false sense of security, and then go right back to his lying ways. That scenario worked before. Without meaningful consequences and meaningful change, why wouldn't a selfish person keep on doing what he's been doing? If his way of being is working just fine for him, he can't (won't?) change to please you. He must want it FOR HIMSELF. And so important- he MUST tell the truth about all the crap he's snowing you with - and he should PROVE he's a safe partner - consistently! - BEFORE offering reconciliation.

AND ------- you're right not to trust him. His stories are unbelievable. IMO he hasn't "come clean" about anything. A pack of cigarettes and vape pen contradict "smoked once with her at work years ago" baloney he's serving. He can't even tell the truth about smoking! So, why believe he's telling the truth about the BIG stuff? Physical proof he's lying (what about that rubber??) is right in front of you, yet he STILL lies. He is not safe. I wouldn't be so quick to extend reconciliation to a repeat offender who continues extravagantly lying with a straight face. Can he ever be a safe partner? Reconciliation before measured progress is a risk, and isn't doing him any favors either. Letting him hit bottom without throwing him a rope could be necessary to finally take responsibility for his choices. To save your marriage, or to save yourself, perhaps you have to let him go.

ETA:

What about STI testing? For both of you. Liars lie.........

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 9:33 PM, Monday, December 19th]

I've been up since 4 AM. I just had to look at the pictures that I had of his conversations with her which prompted me to wake him up to talk. He's been very busy with work (from home so I know he is working) and our kids are home making it hard to have deep conversations. He says she was just a friend and that he wasn't looking for anything more. He admits that she was a secret and therefore it was not OK. He says it is not the same as last time, but that he understands that it is just as bad as last time. Last time he thought he was in love with her. This time she was just his best friend, but not a love interest. The texts I saw kind of support that in that it was almost all political talk, but he also reported everything he did to her. Sent pictures of his lunch. Told her about his medical issues. Caught her up on conversations he had with our kids. Etc. He communicated with her like he normally would have been doing with me?? Nothing gushy or sexual like last time. BUT he did have several messages that ended with I Love You. And he had stopped saying it to me. To me that is something. He says he said I Love You to lots of people. He thought it was a nice thing to do to make people around you feel like you care. He also said I miss you several times and there were messages indicating that he was on his way over to her house. I know these are all red flags. I know what this looks like. He is crying and telling me he is awful and that he will be my servant for the rest of his life, that he will do anything for me, and even mentioned that i'd be better off if he died. I told him he needs counseling at the least, but I just feel ill knowing that I don't know everything. I have told him I need to know all of it and he keeps crying and saying there is no more. He seems sincere, but how do you trust that? It isn't the same as last time. Last time he truly was in love with her. This time I can't tell. I think she was his best friend.