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In a discussion WH and I had last week he said that he felt that if he disappeared nobody would notice. That he felt that he was nothing but a bank for all of us.

How do I tell him that this was mostly by his own design?

He has NEVER attempted to connect with the children on more than a superficial level. If they wanted to buy something they knew to go to him because he would usually just say yes, while I might not because I am the keeper of the budget. However, for everything else, they came to me. We have 5 children ranging in ages between 32 and 17. Each of them at some point in their childhood stopped asking him to come to their activities because they knew he would make excuses as to why he couldn't come. They all knew that there was no point in asking him to do anything that he didn't want to do. Even now we don't usually ask him if he wants to play boardgames because he'll say no, that he'd rather play his computer game.

He also made it clear that in his mind, taking care of me and the kids financially was all he needed to do. When I told him that he should be making more of an effort with the kids, he said he was fine with me having a good relationship with them and me being the intermediary. He didn't/doesn't make an effort to strengthen his relationships with them. Now, he is beginning to see the ramifications of that, but apparently doesn't see how he caused it.

They see him as just a bank because that's what he taught them. That's what he taught me too. That I should be grateful he wasn't out and about, that he was home, that he provided for us. That it should be enough for us, while expecting me to meet all of his other needs, even though he didn't care about mine. Yes, he's gotten better, and I think because of the work he's done so far, he can now see how disconnected he actually is from the family as a whole. But apparently he still doesn't see that it is because of him and his actions.

I worked hard to make and keep my connections with my children and it has not always been easy. In fact it has been pretty difficult (did I mention I have 5 kids) to keep it up. I've also recently began to work on my relationship with my mother because she is now alone and I know that it is comforting for her to have me more in her life again. All of this is WORK.

So, how do I say these things to him without having him get defensive? How do I do it without sounding accusatory? I don't want him to shut down, especially when I am basically telling him that yes, he is mostly not much more than a bank. Of course we all love him, but he's right, if he disappeared, we'd be OK without him because like I said, he is incredibly disconnected emotionally with us all.

Edited for grammar and punctuation.

[This message edited by fournlau at 6:28 PM, Thursday, April 13th]

He also made it clear that in his mind, taking care of me and the kids financially was all he needed to do. When I told him that he should be making more of an effort with the kids, he said he was fine with me having a good relationship with them and me being the intermediary.

Wow, he said this out loud? I wonder if he remembers that.

So, how do I say these things to him without having him get defensive? How do I do it without sounding accusatory? I don't want him to shut down, especially when I am basically telling him that yes, he is mostly not much more than a bank.

I'd tell him that he set it up this way, but he can always make a course change. That he was wanted all along, but chose not to participate. Come join the family for game night. Come to the family events. Apologize to the children for not being there for their activities. Be there for them now, and for grandchildren. Own your stuff, dude, and change your stars.

You did a really excellent job of making yourself clear here in the forum, Fournlau. You might be selling yourself short in terms of communication skills.

From what you've written, I don't think it will matter how you say it. He will become defensive,and he will be insulted..even if you say it very gently.

My husband is the same way. He feels because he provided financially, that equals having nurtured his relationship with the kids. Instead, the kids have nothing to do with him. They call me. They come to see me. If he's there, they barely speak to him. They're as indifferent to him,as he was to them as they were growing up.

He blames me. Apparently it was my job to facilitate his relationship with his children. And he blames them. They need to come to him,and show interest in having a relationship with him. I've told him that's not their job. We have one kid still at home. He goes days without speaking to her.

Honestly, I don't even care if he's hurt by the consequences of his actions. I'm sad for my kids,who have no relationship with their father, because of his actions..or, inaction.

Just tell him the truth. It won't matter how much you try to soften it. It will still upset him.

In a discussion WH and I had last week he said that he felt that if he disappeared nobody would notice. That he felt that he was nothing but a bank for all of us.

You do the therapist thing. You don't give him the answer but you ask him the questions he needs to ask himself in order to get there himself.

For example: You feel like if you disappeared, no one would notice? Why do you feel that way? Why do you think the kids do that? Why do you think that dynamic exists? What kind of relationship would you like with your kids? Why do you think my relationship with the kids is different than yours? etc.

He may get defensive. People tend to do that almost reflexively when faced with a threat to their self-esteem. It's probably not the kind of realization that he'll have in a single conversation.

Wow, he said this out loud? I wonder if he remembers that.

Yes he did say this. I guess it was to get me to stop asking him to take more of an active role in their lives. Does he remember? Probably not, he tends to forget many many things he's said and done.

I'd tell him that he set it up this way, but he can always make a course change. That he was wanted all along, but chose not to participate. Come join the family for game night. Come to the family events. Apologize to the children for not being there for their activities. Be there for them now, and for grandchildren. Own your stuff, dude, and change your stars.

This is a good suggestion, so it isn't all negative.

You did a really excellent job of making yourself clear here in the forum, Fournlau. You might be selling yourself short in terms of communication skills.

Thank you ChamomileTea. I appreciate the support. Unfortunately, I know that this topic is going to bring out the defensiveness in him.

HellFire

That sounds awful! For your kids especially. Like I said, WH has a superficial relationship with the kids. With the three still in the home they speak everyday and have things in common that they can hold a good conversation. But it doesn't go deeper than that. It's difficult having a conversation with him sometimes because he never thinks he's wrong and will try to "fix" things when I just want to vent I have always wished he would be more active in knowing them. My two oldest are out of the house and married. We have a group chat where us girls keep in touch. I know what is happening in their lives and my grandchildren's lives. I will sometimes show him photos that they've sent and he'll ask why they don't send him any. Hmm, I wonder why I asked my oldest about this and she said that she never had that kind of relationship with her father. They know he loves them and would do anything for them, but...(this is what I was trying to avoid because it's the same relationship I had with my father and it sucked).

You do the therapist thing. You don't give him the answer but you ask him the questions he needs to ask himself in order to get there himself.

For example: You feel like if you disappeared, no one would notice? Why do you feel that way? Why do you think the kids do that? Why do you think that dynamic exists? What kind of relationship would you like with your kids? Why do you think my relationship with the kids is different than yours? etc.

He may get defensive. People tend to do that almost reflexively when faced with a threat to their self-esteem. It's probably not the kind of realization that he'll have in a single conversation.

This is a good idea. I'm not sure if he's introspective enough to get to the answer though but I'll give it a try. Now, how to begin the conversation

Here’s how to end the conversation.

Tell him you are planning something for everyone to participate in - I gather it might be more challenging for the older children if they live far away or have their own children.

But let’s say it’s a Mother’s Day bbq or activity. Invite him. Tell him the plans. Tell him it’s a family day and all he has to do is show up.

If he attends and participated it’s a first step to hopefully changing the family dynamics.

If he does not attend or attends but does not interact, you know where you stand.

Now, how to begin the conversation.

You say, "Do you remember last week, when we were talking about XXX you said you felt like if you disappeared no one would notice? I have been thinking about that and wanted to come back to it...."

The1stWife

He actually is fine doing family events. And he "engages" during them. But like I said, it's mostly superficial. He speaks to the kids, just never about anything real or important in their lives. So I'm not worried that he won't be there for family events like this. Me planning a family event is nothing new, I do all the work and yes, he just shows up. Even if he grills, I buy everything, marinate the meat, put it on a plate, wash all the dishes during the "cycle", make the sides, "check" if the meat is done, and plate it to serve. The issue is the disconnect that has been established from him not really wanting to do anything that will inconvenience him.

emergent8

Excellent advice! I won't be able to have this conversation until Sunday but I hope it goes well.

The advice to ask him questions is good. It would be interesting (and telling, perhaps) to see what his perspective is about the cause of the superficial relationship with his own kids.

If you think it's helpful, toward the end end of the conversation you might ask, "Would you like to hear what I think has been key in my relationship with the kids?" And then have a very small number of targeted things ready to share.

I have had similar conversations with my husband where he bemoaned my closeness with the kids vs his.

The keys that I shared with him (over time) were:

-Relationships are built over a million little (and big) conversations. Communicate really regularly and be willing to initiate a lot of conversations/communication. It's consistent effort over a sustained period of time.

-Be willing to share about your own life (life stories/experiences). It shows openness, vulnerability, and it demonstrates that those traits are a two way street in a relationship.

-The most important conversations to have are often the ones you have to force yourself to have. The courage to make youself have them shows your investment in the relationship.

Let's take his feelings at face value. Instead of saying "hey man that's your fault" maybe just dig into what he is feeling. I'm not calling anything into question in terms of your view on the subject. You may be right, that your husband is just suffering the consequences of his choices, but you also may not be. It's possible he is suffering from depression. I doubt your children see their father as "just a bank" even if he isn't super engaged in their lives. I doubt that's all you really see in him either.

As others have said "Why do you feel that way?" "What kind of appreciation are you expecting?" "What do you think is preventing stronger emotional ties being built with those around you?" "What makes you happy?"

It's possible your husband is a plain old asshole and will give asshole answers to these questions. Hopefully it's more constructive than that.

If I didn't make it clear I apologize. Of course neither our kids nor I think of him as "just a bank". If we did, we wouldn't keep including him and reaching out. But there IS a disconnect that can only be bridged by him. Like it's often said, you can't make anyone do anything. You can only control yourself.

I really do hate that he feels this way. And I do want his relationships to be better than they are now. I will however endeavor to dig deeper into those feelings he has. He has admitted that he sometimes does feel depressed. I wish he would do more therapy to deal with his own stuff, not just A related stuff. I find it incredibly useful still.

I have found therapy very useful and certainly there was a time where I would have called it bullshit...

Obviously he has feelings but lacks the courage or energy to do anything about it.

I’m dismayed he’s expecting or hoping you can "fix" this after decades of the sane behavior.

I hope you can take a step back and realize you are not responsible for him, his happiness or helping him fix this issue.

Based in one of your posts, you do everything for him and it sounds like he expects you to do so.

After his affair I would not feel so obligated. In fact I can tell you I no longer cater to my H. I gave him 100% of all I had and he thanked with affairs. So now I’m first, I focus on me and it’s not my job to fix his problems.

And I still don’t do his laundry after 10 years in Reconciliation. And he’s not complaining

Maybe just start with saying how sad he sounded and does he want to talk further. I genuinely feel sad for him, at least with the information provided. I’m wondering if his lack of ‘work’ is echoed with friends, and whether it’s therefore an introversion (energy question) and/or confidence thing, and genuinely assuming people aren’t interested in him, rather than any kind of self-centred opposite. I wonder what was modelled for him as a child, in terms of gender constructs and how interested his parents were in him. Inclusion and encouragement of ways to engage and relate might be helpful, as it sounds like he genuinely doesn’t know how.

*Update*

So, finally had that conversation. I had a hard time getting to it since he works nights and is in bed by 10 or 11am. And on his days off he sleeps most of the day on the first one and then we have a family event on the second. This doesn't give much time for a good heart-to-heart. However, on one of the mornings we just started talking and the subject of his childhood came up and I steered the conversation to his feelings about ours.

He said that his family never had any meaningful conversations. They just all lived parallel lives. And he said that when he is up at night (on his days off) and the kids come down to get water or a snack, they don't even acknowledge him. There is no conversation of any kind, but, that when I am there and they come down, there is always an acknowledgement and conversation. I employed some of the advice from here and asked him why he thought that was, what was the difference between us. He said that it was my personality. I am more outgoing and enjoy conversation (I admit I do love to talk). But, I said that that might be true, however, that doesn't explain it all. That I worked hard on my relationships with my kids.

I also told him that it's not too late, he can still forge that closer bond. He said it WAS too late and that he was content the way things were because his kids know that all they have to do is call him and he's there for whatever they need. I then said that in that case, he was always going to feel the way he does (that if he disappeared nobody would notice or care). He said that he didn't always feel that way. I pushed that he could change, and try. He said it was too hard, that there were too many things standing in the way within him (his lack of empathy, his selfishness, his possible depression). This is when I suggested he return to IC (he is only doing MC and that's occasionally) and learn some tools to work through those issues. He said that would take a LOT of therapy and it was just too hard!

I'm frustrated by this attitude. If he's unhappy with his relationship status why doesn't he want to WORK to make it better? I can't imagine having this type of relationship with my kids! I will keep pushing for him to go back to working on himself and his issues, but I don't know if it will make a difference. He does work on bettering our relationship but for some reason, he thinks it's too late to have a better one with the kids.

Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to fix him or the situation. It can be incredibly frustrating because you can see some of the steps it would take, and he just doesn't seem interested.

What I used to ask was, do you want me to listen because you're venting, or do you want me to listen so we can figure out a solution?

Like you, I don't understand why doing some work and making some changes to have a better relationship with my kids is too much work.

Would be take a bullet for the kids? What you're suggesting is much easier.

All the carry on is most likely financial gaslighting ~ he is probably hoarding resources elsewhere so projecting his greed on to you whilst pretending he is a down and out sad sack ATM for his family is a diversionary tactic to throw you off the scent.

How do you stay married to a financially controlling gaslighter ~ dont believe anything he says for starters. Tell him you want to share responsibility for finances as it is clearly a burden for him, starting with bringing in an accountant or financial planner to audit the family finances and make recommendations for how both of you can manage things better.

I could be wrong of course, in which case he will welcome the suggestion.

All the best on your journey

[This message edited by VezfromTaz at 12:46 AM, Sunday, April 30th]

leafields

Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to fix him or the situation. It can be incredibly frustrating because you can see some of the steps it would take, and he just doesn't seem interested.

Sadly I know this. But I will still keep pushing him to get help because he has never gotten therapy for his depression and I think so much has been weighing on him that he has not dealt with. Of course, I can't MAKE him go, that will still have to be his decision. I hope he does though.

VezfromTaz

I'm not sure you're responding to the right thread? I never said anything about financial control, only that he felt like that was the only reason we would want him around. As far as the finances go, I control it all. I know more about our finances than he does. I pay the bills and take care of all our debts. Of the two of us, I'm the one who could siphon money away and he'd never know! TBH, he literally gets an "allowance" so that he doesn't have to keep asking me if he can buy something and if we have enough money to do that. He's not interested in that aspect, money has never been that important to him, as long as he has enough to take care of the family and a few fun things.

It's very common for us codependent types to attract to needy partners. It guarantees we get to work hard and see ourselves as strong saviors forever. We like viewing ourselves as strong and competent doers, so we saddle ourselves with alcoholics, drug abusers, mentally unwell, physically unwell, personality disordered, etc. There are countless members here like us, stuck with needy partners.

What keeps us there? Some version of, "But what would he do without me? I couldn't do that."

Your greatest challenge will be to learn to take care of you and stop trying to fix him. I don't mean to sound cruel at all because I've had to do this myself, but who cares if he doesn't have a good relationship with his kids? That pretty much has nothing to do with you. It's literally not your problem, and yet you are exerting time and energy on it when you could and should be drawing boundaries and saying, "I will keep my focus on my own life and relationships." You have no control over your kids relationship with him. Leave that to them, for good or for bad.

It is about taking care of you, not hurting him. It is about saving your energy, time and attention to create joy in your own life. If we don't want to leave these people (even though they are like an anchor around our necks), then we have to work on boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And that includes your thoughts and feelings.

Snap a rubberband on your wrist if necessary: not my circus, not my monkey. He is a grown man who makes his own life. Let him live it. If he complains about it, leave the room or change the subject.

Spend more time on self-care and more time nurturing YOU, Fournlau. You deserve it.