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I am not willing to walk away without knowing that I've done absolutely everything possible to make our marriage work

And she knows it. Frankly, she should be doing the work. I completely agree with what Hellfire said. If my WW would have been stupid enough to say that about my kids, I'd have dumped her on the spot.

I'm sorry you are going through this, but you need to realize that your WW checked out of the M a long time ago. She is not R material and nothing you do can change her. You are keeping yourself in this painful state.

Your W should have a passion for you, but instead, youvare waiting around for the emotional crumbs you hope will arrive. No one should live like this.

I am not willing to walk away without knowing that I've done absolutely everything possible to make our marriage work (though I wont stay together for the kids).

You cannot push, pull, or drag someone to R. You cannot nice her back, Brother this is war, you have an enemy in your camp. Good for you asking her to leave.

I just hope at some point she gets to the same place. I do believe that working together its possible for me to get to a point where we move past this and I forgive her but I won't even know if I can until we get to a point where we are trying to reconcile.

Let go of this, she is gone. She is in love with a fantasy, there is no competing with rainbows and unicorns

She was sending him pictures of my kids. Pictures of them snuggling with her in bed. She asked him if he could love my kids as his own. She told him "they could be yours" in reference to my kids.

Dude this is disgusting, she is not only firing you as a H she is trying to replace you as their Dad!! This is an attack on you and your kids. You need to file for D and custody like yesterday.

[This message edited by Tanner at 4:10 PM, Tuesday, July 4th]

You have been deeply traumatized, so I don't think you are seeing this clearly. Which is normal, at this stage.

To provide some clarity..

You know nothing about this man. All she really knows is what he tells her. Who knows what is true,and what isn't. She only knows what he wants her to know.

She was/is offering up your children to this man. Using them to attract him,in some ways. Look how cute and sweet they are! It's vile. It's extremely dangerous. This man could be a pedophile. Have you run a background check on him? Even if he has no record, it means nothing. Many molesters get away with it for years,and by the time they're caught,there are several victims in their wake.

She is 100% risking your kids right now.

He may not be a pedophile. That's true. But the possibility is there. Even if it's a small chance.

No good mother would risk her children's safety, even if there's only a 1% chance they could be harmed.

Man,its one thing to cheat on your family (make no mistake, she's betraying the kids as much as she is betraying you). It's another to try to replace your children's father by telling a man she doesn't really know..that the kids could be "his."

She is not safe. For you,or those kids.

I'm sure you think she's a good mom. I've read that you think she's a wonderful woman. Many BS feel their WS is a good parent. That's simply not true. A good mom doesn't risk their kid's family, happiness, and security, for an OM. They don't risk the life of their kids father, by exposing him to deadly stds. A good mom sets a good example. She's doing none of that. And..bottom line..a good mom recognizes that their kids have a wonderful father..and they don't offer their children up to a man they don't know,and tell him they could be "yours. "

You need to get angry,real fast.

This is beyond infidelity. IMO, the infidelity takes a backseat to exposing the children to danger.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:56 PM, Tuesday, July 4th]

You have been deeply traumatized, so I don't think you are seeing this clearly. Which is normal, at this stage.

To provide some clarity..

You know nothing about this man. All she really knows is what he tells her. Who knows what is true,and what isn't. She only knows what he wants her to know.

She was/is offering up your children to this man. Using them to attract him,in some ways. Look how cute and sweet they are! It's vile. It's extremely dangerous. This man could be a pedophile. Have you run a background check on him? Even if he has no record, it means nothing. Many molesters get away with it for years,and by the time they're caught,there are several victims in their wake.

She is 100% risking your kids right now.

He may not be a pedophile. That's true. But the possibility is there. Even if it's a small chance.

No good mother would risk her children's safety, even if there's only a 1% chance they could be harmed.

Man,its one thing to cheat on your family (make no mistake, she's betraying the kids as much as she is betraying you). It's another to try to replace your children's father by telling a man she doesn't really know..that the kids could be "his."

She is not safe. For you,or those kids.

I'm sure you think she's a good mom. I've read that you think she's a wonderful woman. Many BS feel their WS is a good parent. That's simply not true. A good mom doesn't risk their kid's family, happiness, and security, for an OM. They don't risk the life of their kids father, by exposing him to deadly stds. A good mom sets a good example. She's doing none of that. And..bottom line..a good mom recognizes that their kids have a wonderful father..and they don't offer their children up to a man they don't know,and tell him they could be "yours. "

You need to get angry,real fast.

This is beyond infidelity. IMO, the infidelity takes a backseat to exposing the children to danger.

I am being blinded by the idea of reconciliation and you're right, I'm not helping myself or my children by continuing to play out this fantasy.

I am being blinded by the idea of reconciliation and you're right, I'm not helping myself or my children by continuing to play out this fantasy.

Correct, you need to see her for what she is, not for what you thought, wished, or fantasized her to be. She has offered up your children to a predator, yes he is a predator, on your family. Like Hellfire you need to find your anger real fast.

Friend, you are in the right place--Surviving Infidelity--but you are in the wrong subforum. You are NOT in Reconciliation. Your WW isn't even regretful, nevermind remorseful.

Right now you are in shock. So much has happened that you are numb. It is your brain's way of protecting you in a way so you will not be overwhelmed. But right now you do need to see reality. Your WW not only stepped outside of your marriage but she overtly disrespected you besides that, putting down you sexually, and EVEN WORSE, sending OM a picture of your kids asking if he could love them as their father. She overtly betrayed YOUR KIDS with that text too. That is an extremely sick and twisted woman.

What your WW said about not feeling heard is something all WWs say, it is just the story they tell themselves to try to justify their affairs. If your WW hadn't felt heard before, she could have come to you instead of spreading her legs for another man as she did.

But, reconciliation isn't something that happens if you even do get back together.

Reconciliation is a process. It literally takes years,if you do it the healthy way. If you address the issues,and each of you work on yourselves, and the marriage. In the beginning, the ws does the heavy lifting. The BS watches their actions, to decide of they are working on themselves, if they are honest, NC, remorseful, etc.

Nothing in any of your posts says she is reconciliation matetial.

H&B,

A couple of things strike me about your posts:
1) You are owning that, in the past, you weren't a very emotionally supportive partner and are working on that.
As part of this, you also reveal that you lied in the past, but mostly white lies regarding food when you were losing weight.

2) You describe functionally carrying the majority of logistics for making the day-to-day family run both for the kids and even for you and your wife (meals, clean up, almost all of the kid care in the a.m. and p.m.). You say you "made it easy for her."

All of this makes me wonder if there is a strong dynamic in your relationship where she is usually in the "control" position (i.e. very demanding) and you are in a co-dependent position where you meet her needs. Basically, she's a taker, and you're a giver.

Maybe I'm wrong. But what you've described seems to have this undertone.

If I'm right, you should bring this up with your individual counselor. This dynamic may have really skewed your ability to quit "owning fault" in her choice to betray you and your family. This dynamic may also make you too willing to wait around hoping to heal what may have been a very messed up power dynamic in your relationship for years.

Could it be that you've been put upon, taken advantage of, and under-appreciated for most of your marriage?

Could it be that she's used to making you feel like you are coming up short most of the time and you are used to scrambling to appease her?

Could it be that she is used to being selfish and you are used to being selfless?

If so, is this the relationship dynamic you want to see modeled for your kids?

R or D, do the work you need to do to be emotionally healthy for yourself. You have worth. Take actions that show that you value yourself and your worth. Model that for your kids. At their current ages, they may not understand the reasons for the actions you take, but this may be a powerful story to tell when the time is right and they need this lesson in their own lives years down the road.

What would you advise your own kids to do if they were your age and in your shoes?

I am not willing to walk away without knowing that I've done absolutely everything possible to make our marriage work

You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.

Read that. Read it again. I know it's not intuitive. I know it goes against every instinct in your body right now. But it's true. It also means that you have to be willing to walk away right now.

Her affair, this betrayal, you didn't chose that. It's not about you and it's not about anything you did or didn't do. But you get to choose the marriage you are willing to accept going forward, and I promise you, you deserve better than the scraps she is willing to offer you right now.

Currently she's getting the best of both worlds. She is free to have her affair out in the open and she knows you are at home waiting for her in case she changes her mind. It's not paralysis she is experiencing, it's ambivalence. She has nothing to lose. Give her something to lose. She will make her choice. I cannot promise you that the choice she will make is the one you want her to make, but if you believe that you have any control over what she's going to do next anyhow, you are mistaken.

I will tell you that in my experience, most WS who are in the fog as deep as your wife seems to be, do not snap out of cakeeating until they are forced to do so. It is amazing how many people suddenly "wake up" when the reality of their situation finally hits.

You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.

Read that. Read it again. I know it's not intuitive. I know it goes against every instinct in your body right now. But it's true. It also means that you have to be willing to walk away right now.

Her affair, this betrayal, you didn't chose that. It's not about you and it's not about anything you did or didn't do. But you get to choose the marriage you are willing to accept going forward, and I promise you, you deserve better than the scraps she is willing to offer you right now.

Currently she's getting the best of both worlds. She is free to have her affair out in the open and she knows you are at home waiting for her in case she changes her mind. It's not paralysis she is experiencing, it's ambivalence. She has nothing to lose. Give her something to lose. She will make her choice. I cannot promise you that the choice she will make is the one you want her to make, but if you believe that you have any control over what she's going to do next anyhow, you are mistaken.

I will tell you that in my experience, most WS who are in the fog as deep as your wife seems to be, do not snap out of cakeeating until they are forced to do so. It is amazing how many people suddenly "wake up" when the reality of their situation finally hits.

How do I make her decide though? Do I just tell her to decide if she wants to reconcile or divorce? She's been very clear that if she needs to decide in this moment that it would be to end things. She's also said that she does not want to make a long term decision based on short term emotion and that she wants to work on herself with her IC and the two of us work together to work on our issues in MC. She's also taken small steps to start pulling away from the OM including stopping near all communication with him with the exception of a few professional emails that she needs to because they work together and also looking at a job in another department so they would have no overlap and no need to communicate at all.

I'm not saying I'm not willing to make her decide but if she says she needs time to be actually clear on what decision she has to make, even though it hurts me in the process because I'm not able to start healing, do I give her that time? We've been partners for 18 years (together since high school), married for 11 and we have two kids. She knows there is an insane consequence and cost to ending the marriage and I've always sort of felt like the longer this goes on the more it is actually in my favor that she will start to come out of the fog and the consequences will start to take root and make her actually think about what she wants. Of course I dont know if she would want to reconcile with me in the end but the difference is ending things now or in a few months, but either way the end would happen.

Hopefully how I'm explaining that makes sense. There's a lot in IC I need to work on and I am taking to heart a lot that has been said here.

She's been very clear that if she needs to decide in this moment that it would be to end things.

There it is. She is telling you that at least right now, OM is her first choice, but she'd like you to stick around as a backup in case things don't work out. She'd like you to be her backup option. Is that acceptable to you? Do you really think you can R with a woman who is ambivalent towards being with you?

How do I make her decide though? Do I just tell her to decide if she wants to reconcile or divorce?

You say something like this. I understand you are feeling ambivalent about our marriage and and would prefer to be with the OM. That is your choice. I love you and I wish you would make a different choice, but I am not prepared sit around and wait for you to make a decision about it though. I'm not interested in sharing you. I deserve someone who WANTS to be married to me, and me alone. If you are prepared to fight for our marriage and our family, I am prepared to do so with you, but I cannot and will not do it alone. Unless you are prepared to commit to X, Y, and Z (presumably immediately cut off all communication with OM is one of those things), then I think it is time we move towards divorce.

Then you inform friends and family and other stakeholders in the relationship about what is going on, if this has not been done already. Like I said, when reality starts to seep in and she has to face the reaction and judgement of others, her romanticized version of the A is less likely to hold.

PS. I know how enormous this is. I've been with my husband for 17 years. My kids are similar in age to yours.

There it is. She is telling you that at least right now, OM is her first choice, but she'd like you to stick around as a backup in case things don't work out. She'd like you to be her backup option. Is that acceptable to you? Do you really think you can R with a woman who is ambivalent towards being with you?

At this moment I dont think it would actually be her picking him. It would be just her not picking me. Supposedly both her and OM have decided that they need to decide independently what they want to do. But I get that her not picking me is almost the same as picking him. But she's said that in her head there are other decisions she could just like just being alone/single and not being with anyone. As she puts it there's a bunch of different paths in front of her and she does not know what path she wants to walk down yet and she wants to work on things for herself and with us before shse feels like she has the clarity to decide. But you're right in that I do not want to be plan B. I deserve to be someone's ride or die. If something happened like he chose to stay with his wife before she decides what she wants then yea I would never actually know if she was choosing me.

You say something like this. I understand you are feeling ambivalent about our marriage and and would prefer to be with the OM. That is your choice. I love you and I wish you would make a different choice, but I am not prepared sit around and wait for you to make a decision about it though. I'm not interested in sharing you. I deserve someone who WANTS to be married to me, and me alone. If you are prepared to fight for our marriage and our family, I am prepared to do so with you, but I cannot and will not do it alone. Unless you are prepared to commit to X, Y, and Z (presumably immediately cut off all communication with OM is one of those things), then I think it is time we move towards divorce.

Then you inform friends and family and other stakeholders in the relationship about what is going on, if this has not been done already. Like I said, when reality starts to seep in and she has to face the reaction and judgement of others, her romanticized version of the A is less likely to hold.

PS. I know how enormous this is. I've been with my husband for 17 years. My kids are similar in age to yours.

This framework is incredibly helpful, thank you.

1. Why the hell would you even WANT to save your marriage though? That is what the question should be, hell your WW betrayed YOU. The question should be whether YOU want to stay or go. Your WW, besides stepping out of the marriage, not only made fun of you to OM in about the most hurtful way, but she also put YOUR KIDS at risk. What an awful mother!

2. Your WW had already made a decision, when she took her vows she promised to love and honor you. Nowhere in there was she allowed to pursue OM to see if she likes him better. Even if she decides she wants you, how the hell could you ever trust her again?

I am sure you were not the perfect husband--who the hell ever was. But whatever small thing you did, does not compare to what your WW did. And, lest you both fall into the frame that your WW is only trying to make the best decision, I will bet that OM has way more problems and issues than you ever had.

YOUR STRATEGY OF LETTING HER DECIDE IS DOOMED FOR FAILURE. PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR KIDS AND FILE FOR D!

Your WW not talking to OM--don't believe it. She lied to you all this time, what makes you think she is telling the truth to you now. Likewise with "forgetting" all the things she said to OM.

I can only assume this is what YOU want because you are tolerating this situation.

You're very welcome HurtandBroken.

But you're right in that I do not want to be plan B. I deserve to be someone's ride or die.

You're absolutely right about this. Please keep reminding yourself of this, particularly during your "weaker" moments (we all have them). You get to decide what you are willing to accept in a relationship. You don't have to accept the terms she is offering. You will feel stronger about all of this when you put yourself into the driver's seat.

I also wouldn't be so sure about her not picking him. It sounds a lot like he is dealing with the chaos of D-day himself and she is probably waiting around to see if he picks her (like he presumably said he would) or whether he chooses his wife).

Why the hell would you even WANT to save your marriage though?

Because it's only been a month. It can take time for our heads and our hearts to switch gears, particularly when we are simultaneously processing trauma. Very rarely do we fall out of love with someone overnight. This is a woman he has been with for 17 years, likely his entire adult life. It is the woman he always imagined growing old with. He has young children with her. Leaving her likely means splitting his time with them to some degree. Its a big decision. I don't necessarily disagree with your advice, but it helps no one to imply that this should be easy for him.

You have the option of filing for D and getting the process started and then cancelling if things change. You could add that to the strategies already presented. Most jurisdictions take a long time for D to be final, although some can happen within 3 months or so. See a lawyer to know your options.

This would add pressure to your wife and make things more real for her. It would also allow you to take more initiative and show her that you are ok if she does not choose to work hard toward R.

I've always sort of felt like the longer this goes on the more it is actually in my favor that she will start to come out of the fog and the consequences will start to take root and make her actually think about what she wants

Maybe she might start coming out of the fog, but by that time, will you still care what SHE wants?

In the beginning, we're so shocked by the betrayal that often our kneejerk reaction is to try and save the status quo, to put things back the way they were, BETTER than the way they were even. We want to fix everything, and the threat of loss makes us feel like we've never loved our WS more. But that feeling eventually gives way to hurt and insult. As time goes by, we realize that no one can MAKE someone throw away their own values and that the person we've loved and been devoted to all this time is capable of this kind of perfidy, and that it's not about us or anything we've done. It's about our WS's selfishness and the deficits in their character that make it possible for them to say "yes!" to betrayal. Intellectually, we understand that we should be angry, sad, done with this person, but our response is bound up in a reflexive fear of abandonment and terror at the prospect of losing all the normality in our lives.

Your WS is piling up the damage. Her indecision is salting the wounds and right now, while you're reeling in shock, you're like a guy with a really bad laceration who isn't feeling the pain and blood loss yet. Time changes things though, and every day your WS fails to respond to your injuries has a price tag.

This is one downside to playing the waiting game. The other is that the longer a separation goes on, the more likely it is to become permanent. Life has a way of moving on, and as time goes by, you both become accustomed to being without each other. When you're on friendly terms and doing this kind of "pick me" dance, she's able to ease her way out of the marriage at her own pace and comfort. You're providing a safety net while she explores the options... but that also means that any one of those "options" is an equally valid choice in her mind.

In a way, the fact that I'd already seen some emotional infidelity from my WS prepared me a bit so that I was able to make the choices very stark for him. In hindsight, I do feel like if I hadn't, we wouldn't be together now. I had to know that when push came to shove, he was going to pick me and our life together, and that has made a great deal of difference in how much damage there was to overcome as R proceeded. By the time he was caught, he'd become emotionally enmeshed to some degree with an OW and felt like he'd made promises to her that he was having a tough time breaking. Here's the thing though, EVERYTHING was on the scales. It was a binary, either/or proposition. Here's your wife of thirty years, the love and respect of your children and extended family, your reputation, your financial security, your life as you know it, and here's the OW, a cheater and a liar in her own right, along with all the expectation she's going to have for you. At a certain point after he'd been caught breaking NC a month after dday, he had about thirty seconds to make that choice.

This is YOUR life. Yours are the boots on the ground and YOU are the one who has to live with the outcome. Right now, you're probably feeling a lot of pressure to make decisions and to somehow not make a mistake. That stress though is kind of an illusion in some ways because a lot of what we worry about in the beginning is really not in our purview. We can't MAKE our WS do the right thing. All we can do is decide what we can tolerate and then set our personal boundaries accordingly.

You're going to be okay. It sucks and it feels like it goes on forever, but in reality, we do get through it. We're all still here, and you will be too. Take your time. Educate yourself. Set your boundaries. Take care of yourself and your kids. Life is going to feel really messy for awhile, but in time, you'll muddle through. Have faith in yourself.

She has decided. OM is not leaving his wife. He does not want to raise your kids.

You need to protect yourself and your rights. What you are doing now is empowering your wife. First I would expose the affair to family and friends then I would file.

The courts do not care about the affair but her moving out is another story.

How do I make her decide though? Do I just tell her to decide if she wants to reconcile or divorce?

Gently, you cannot 'make' her decide. You can only control yourself. YOU have to decide for YOURSELF and for your kids.

She's been very clear that if she needs to decide in this moment that it would be to end things. She's also said that she does not want to make a long term decision based on short term emotion and that she wants to work on herself with her IC and the two of us work together to work on our issues in MC.

She is just buying time for herself. She is not thinking about you at all.

She's also taken small steps to start pulling away from the OM including stopping near all communication with him with the exception of a few professional emails that she needs to because they work together and also looking at a job in another department so they would have no overlap and no need to communicate at all.

The very fact that she is still communicating with her AP means that the A is still ongoing. How much effort is she putting into getting another job?

She knows there is an insane consequence and cost to ending the marriage and I've always sort of felt like the longer this goes on the more it is actually in my favor that she will start to come out of the fog and the consequences will start to take root and make her actually think about what she wants.

You are taking huge hits of Hopium with this line of thinking. If she knows the consequences, why is she dithering, and still in contact with her AP? If she knows the impact, especially on the kids, she would be able to make the decision quickly.

But she's said that in her head there are other decisions she could just like just being alone/single and not being with anyone.

This is another Hopium addled response. What does your gut tell you? Does it tell you that your WW will take the 'being alone/single' option, or she will probably head over to her AP at the earliest convenient time?

Basically, why should she be making a choice about your life? Why leave the decision in her hands? Why are you not making the decision for yourself and for your kids to lead a stable life? By giving her the power to decide on your fate, you are dying the Death of a Thousand Cuts.

What has your WW done to give you some sense of security? Does she let you go through all her communications (emails, phones, social media)? If she is still protecting those, it is a huge red flag. She is highly likely still having a lot of communications with her AP, hence the dithering.