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Trickle truth - marriage killer. Everything I've read is true. 

Please someone help, I am at such a complete loss. I am feeling worse and worse, I can't even bare waking up in the mornings.

My WH and I have been trying to R, but unfortunately he has spent the last 15 months since the A, TT. All manner of things, big and small. 

About 2 weeks ago, I gave him a 2 month deadline. I told him I want him to tell me ALL of the things he KNOWS he's hiding , to finish his timeline (this was only started about 3/4 weeks ago - not because of any reluctance from him but more because I kept finding out more and more lies, so felt, well what's the point if its written when he's still lying to my face!?) with as much accuracy as he can recall and drop the defensiveness and anger (this always seems to come into play when he's lying - if we're just talking about the A he's actually very empathetic). At the end of those two months I was going to then consider whether I still want to TRY to R, and also follow up his timeline with a polygraph if I felt necessary. 

Since I've offered him this 2 month opportunity to try and show me he is R material, he has:

1. Lied to my face re another aspect of the A. He only admitted it when I applied a LOT of pressure, and the threat of ending our marriage. This was about a week or so ago.

2. He has admitted to me off his own back, two aspects of the A that were incorrect. One of them being that a part of his timeline he'd previously written was a lie. Actually, another big lie. The other admission was minor really.

Today I asked him a question re the A, and I just in my gut feel he is lying. I think xyz happened and he maintains it didn't. But I trust my gut; my trust for him is non-existent. Every single other hunch I've had that he's been lying, I've been spot on. 

He has gone to great lengths to manipulate me previously, even though he knows he's lying. He has seen me distraught the to point I have hit my head on things, dug knives into my palms, he's goaded me to message AP to "prove" he's telling the truth (he was lying - how utterly humiliating that would've been, eh?), he's punched walls, he's smashed our crockery, he's thrown his phone at our family photo frame and broken it - all in anger at being accused of such and such (but yet, he was still lying).

So I'm at a serious sticking point. He maintains that there is in fact nothing left that he is purposfully hiding from me. He says he believes there might be things he's forgotten, that the continuation of his timeline might bring other things to surface for him, but that in any event, there is nothing to his knowledge that he is keeping from me. He is now even willing to take a polygraph to back this statement up. Is this yet more bluffing? His rationale is that I know A LOT about the A (it lasted 3 months and he's correct, I do know a lot), and that maybe I need to consider the fact that there is literally nothing else to know (like I say, I do know a lot). Because the amount of things he's hidden, has to end somewhere.....

But my gut is telling me, still, he is hiding some things. My gut has been surprisingly (scarily) accurate. But equally I recognise, I am fallible. I am vulnerable, I am on high alert. There is of course the possibility I am wrong, and he is being truthful in saying that everything he has hidden has been divulged (via TT). I describe this to him as using up all of his possible "trust points" on TT, so there is nothing left for us to build on unfortunately.

I feel I am willing to end our marriage at this point on just a hunch and a (scarily accurate) gut feeling. Because who else can I trust? 

But what if I'm wrong? Does it matter? I gave him two months to show change and he was STILL lying to me a week later, even then!?

I can't seem to articulate how much I am struggling, and how much this man has messed with my head 😪

Edited to add:

I feel I need to add, that this situation has not brought out the best in me either. I have been god awful to him in return. I have shouted in his face and said awful things to him (actually we have both done this if I'm honest...), I have sat on top of him I.e  "mounted" (as he likes to refer) him and begged for the truth (for reference I am 8st, he is 17st). All of this has stemmed from what feels like torture 😭 I am not proud of behaving so uncharacteristically scathing, scornful and unkind. I've become someone I really don't like.

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 11:39 PM, Monday, August 7th]

Please, understand that I may come off as harsh, but I am not trying to. You said, "I’m willing to end my marriage on a hunch" but it’s not a hunch. He had an affair, and then lied about it after. You don’t have a hunch, your marriage is already over. Please, you don’t have to wait for the other shoe to drop. He already ended the marriage, you don’t need anything else to walk away. Even if you gave the gift of R, YOU don’t have any obligation to stay. Even if he was remorseful and actually trying, (and he isn’t at all) you can always end the relationship if it isn’t good for you. From your post, it’s not, at all. It’s toxic as hell.

Now reread everything you wrote. You don’t have a marriage, you have a war zone. Violence, lies, manipulation, telling you to contact AP (because they are always so trustworthy). I feel from reading your post you’re holding on to what you thought you had, not what you actually have.

I think you need to at the very least, separate and go NC with him, for your mental health. No one is worth sacrificing yourself for, especially not a cheater. It can be scary and lonely, but it’s ok, and it will be ok. You know your self worth and that you are worth way more than you are getting.

I agree with HINHF. I think separation is in order and it will serve more than one purpose: You get to have a break from the craziness and he'll get to experience the full consequences of his actions.

Is separation feasible?

I feel I am willing to end our marriage at this point on just a hunch and a (scarily accurate) gut feeling. Because who else can I trust?

You're not ending a marriage on a hunch, you'd be ending it because your WH cheated and lied repeatedly.

Infidelity and TT (and all the other manner of psychological torture he is putting you through) is ABUSE.

Would you put up with this if he was physically abusing you? Hoping that in 2 months, he'll just magically stop punching you? The fact that he is punching walls and throwing things is actually really concerning... just a hop-skip-and a jump from hitting walls to hitting people.

If you truly feel you can cut the cord now, do it. Could it really be a worse existence than what you're currently living through?

Here is part of a long post I wrote to TinyTim in the wayward side just the other day, where I explained the damage TT did to my relationship with my WH:

To a BS the fact that the WS is wiling to "protect themselves" over the needs of the BS [by trickle truthing them], after causing so much pain is PROOF the WS cannot be trusted to make a different choice in the future or trust in what they are telling us now.

The things you describe as happening in your house, minus the throwing things and the sitting on top of your WH begging, happened in mine post-d-day 2. My WH claimed he wanted to R, and stopped the A (he did - for awhile, and then went back). He threw things (not at me but on the floor, against the wall), we yelled and screamed, and he stonewalled me, or ignored me. I cried, begged for the truth, and his disdain for me grew and grew.

Gross. Even thinking about it now is just

I didn't get any separation between he and I at that time. I thought it wasn't possible. I should have. It was UGLY and it was not RECONCILIATION. It was affair-aftermath. It was horrendous. And while I was much less nasty than my WH, there were things I said designed to hurt him for the sake of hurting him. It was totally out of control.

I suspect, you, like many of us (me included) felt like leaving was giving up and letting him/the A/whatever win, or you losing. I left - things are a lot better (and we are not fully in R but we are working on our friendship and he is working on himself being a better person for himself). What you are doing now will likely not end well. You need a break. Ask him to leave, temporarily. You need space. It will hurt in the short term, but it will help in the long term.

My WH TT me to death. I ended up with a case of PTSD, not from the A, but from his constant lies. Took me YEARS to move out of infidelity, I also became a person I didn't recognize. I had to dig and pull and push just to get some semblance of truth out of him.

I stayed because of my three children. I came from a broken home and I didn't want that for my children.

My WH did everything right, dumped OW, found another job, was completely transparent,..... except he tried to protect himself instead of having empathy for what he did to me by just telling me the truth.

It's so true, the TT kills the marriage, it pretty much destroyed mine, and even though we are still together, it's more of a partnership than a real marriage.

I'm so sorry he is putting you through this hell.

he's punched walls, he's smashed our crockery, he's thrown his phone at our family photo frame and broken it - all in anger at being accused of such and such (but yet, he was still lying).

^^^His violence is very concerning. It might escalate, so IMO you might want to consider a separation until/if he can get his act together.

I agree with the suggestion for space. I think you need a reprieve from this turmoil. Are you seeing a therapist??

I will also say I was insanely unhinged during the 13 months post D day when I was trying to stay in the marriage. It was crazy making shit. My ex was not only tt’ing me, he was also still in touch with the AP which, of course, he continued to lie about. I think in no small part my own turmoil was rooted in the unconscious knowledge that I knew he was still lying. Maybe yours is too?

If your WS is still lying about little (and big) information, you can’t continue to live under the same roof. You say he’s empathetic about the A, but is he really?? How can he be if he’s still lying all the time.

This is no way to live.

Hey WhiskeyBlues,

My heart breaks for you as you are being TT'd to death it seems. As a madhatter, I think the one thing that helped us in our R was that we both knew how bad the TT is and we were able to get it all out there and deal with it in one lump sum if you will. Sure, it was a lot to process, but at least with a total brain dump on the whole thing, you were able to understand this is what the As were and how they can be neatly wrapped up in a bow and dealt with so to speak.

It appears that your WH didn't seem to get the memo. He was awful to you by having the affair and he is awful to you now by not sharing the details about his affair that you are asking for in order to consider staying with him. He is operating out of total fear and CYA mode, which is not indicative of a wayward who actually gets it. I guess it all depends on what he is omitting/lying about, but it could be really important to you and whatever details are important to you are going to be important that he shares as much as he can. I've found that as I've worked through this now for a few years that our memories are a funny thing at times, we sometimes recall the strangest details years after the fact because something triggers the memory. For example, this isn't an A related memory, but one of my team and I were talking about their upcoming travel for work and we were discussing meals and suddenly I was taken back to the fanciest of fancy meals that I ate on the road 5 years ago now. Suddenly I was taken back to that restaurant, the sights, sounds, smells, tastes of that meal that happened 5 years ago. It is crazy that as I was describing the Wagyu steak I had for dinner that night I could almost taste it but lunch that I ate earlier today was so unforgettable that I didn't commit it to memory and just now I had really think hard about what I ate (a friendly belch while typing helped remind me ).

All that to say that there may be some things out there that your husband genuinely doesn't remember but those things are likely few and far between. I think the larger issue is clearly that he wants to rug sweep everything rather than actually fix and address his own shit. A truly repentant and empathetic wayward would be an open book, willing and ready to answer every question you have and if he can't truly remember something, try to piece together what he can from receipts, credit card statements, location data in pictures on his phone, call and text records or any other available information. As we always advise waywards, they should be willing to crawl over broken glass to make it right with their betrayed spouse and in the case of your husband, he just doesn't have it in him it seems.

He has gone to great lengths to manipulate me previously, even though he knows he's lying. He has seen me distraught the to point I have hit my head on things, dug knives into my palms, he's goaded me to message AP to "prove" he's telling the truth (he was lying - how utterly humiliating that would've been, eh?), he's punched walls, he's smashed our crockery, he's thrown his phone at our family photo frame and broken it - all in anger at being accused of such and such (but yet, he was still lying).

My, the extent he’ll go to in his deflections. It’s gaslighting. Not to mention escalating violence.

Such a focus on him and his truth. What’s yours now? Your truth? You are in control of reversing this process of becoming someone you don’t like. It’s about focusing on oneself and and working becoming a person you like. What does that look like? Can you detach and look at this situation as if you were watching a film. What do you see?

You have zero reason to trust him.

He’s lied and lied. And then manipulated you to great lengths.

And then cheats and lies again.

I don’t think in 2 months you are going to get what you need. I don’t think your H has the ability to recognize the truth if it bit him. 😡

He appears to have some serious issues that causes him to lie. Even knowing you will find out or it’s obvious he’s lying, his go to behavior is to lie.

I think you have to stop and ask yourself if this marriage is worth it. If you continue to try to R without your H getting serious help for his lying addiction, I think you will be locked in a warp and the cycle will continue over and over again.

I think you may want to consider counseling for yourself on how to accept your H’s lying addiction and learn to deal with it.

And then I think you need to make a decision on whether you want to continue to be married to someone who lies about too many things.

Thank you everyone, you all speak such sense. 

HINHF - you've hit the nail on the head when you say I'm holding onto what I thought I had, not what I actually have. It really has become toxic as hell. We had a genuinely brilliant marriage pre A, and I miss the fairy tale I thought we had. 

He had everything and it still wasn't enough. He had a beautiful devoted wife (his words), two amazing caring daughters, a lovely home (we'd only moved the year before) and the career he's always wanted. 

I can't get my head round why on earth he threw it all away and risked literally everything, even his job and our home, for some cheap, immature, trashy, heartless nobody. All because she stroked his frail little child-like ego. It's pathetic. 

SS33 - Separation is feasible to a degree. I work full time and would be entitled to a small amount of benefits, so believe I could survive on my own. WH on the other hand would really, really struggle financially (I know it shouldn't be a concern on mine but he's still the father of my children, I can't help but worry). 

Trapped74 - I am deeply concerned about his escalating anger, and so is he. In all our years together, this man has never even so much as raised his voice to me. And now he's punching walls and breaking shit?! It's bewildering to say the least! A friend of mine believes he's on the verge of a mental breakdown.

TISL - your words make perfect sense to me. "It was UGLY and it was not RECONCILIATION."

What we have now, IS ugly. It's hideous. We've both said awful things to eachother, and it's just not who I am. It's not who he is either (well I'm not sure who he is tbh, I thought he was faithful and loyal but I was wrong). 

We both do need a break. It's just so hard with the kids. They will be broken and I can't seem to bring myself to do that to them, if it's only temporary for a break. He actually left us during the A for the AP, as he thought she was "the one". Reality sunk in very quickly a week later, and he was back. But they've been hugely affected. The eldest starts high school next month, I can't face putting more on her 😪 

Did you attempt IHS at all?

Annb - "My WH did everything right, dumped OW, found another job, was completely transparent,..... except he tried to protect himself instead of having empathy for what he did to me by just telling me the truth." This explains my WH exactly. 

He went NC, moved jobs, came off any social media, is fully accountable. But when it comes to the truth, he seemingly can't do it. And instead of thinking of ME I.e. "I'm worried that my wife will never trust another human being if I continue to lie", his thought process is "I'm worried the next thing I tell her will tip her over the edge and I'll lose the marriage". This isn't empathy, it's still selfishness and deceit.

He really has destroyed my faith in humanity at this point. If we don't work out, I will never love anyone again. I'm only 38, and have a very kind heart...how sad is that? 😔

BrokenheartedUK - I was seeing a counsellor and had some EMDR therapy. But we couldn't afford the costs any longer. The NHS in my area doesn't offer counselling services, only CBT. Which is definitely not what I need! 

"If your WS is still lying about little (and big) information, you can’t continue to live under the same roof." Indeed little and big things. The little things are for example, him hiding the fact that one evening on a late shift he popped round to hers to collect a chilli she had made him for dinner. He omitted this because he knows I'm a very passionate cook and have always sort of prided myself in feeding him and our kids really great food. It's my "thing". So he hid him letting her cook him a chilli for work (from a jar, apparently it was incredibly tasteless with zero spice 😒 she was an armature who lived like a uni student), because he felt this was too "wifely" for me to stomach. Does it hurt, knowing this? Yes. I won't lie, it pisses me off. They only knew eachother for a few weeks and are suddenly playing boyfriend and girlfriend. BUT is it the be all and end all? Of course not. He had sex with someone else repeatedly and told her he loved her. If I can try and R with that, I can get over the damn chilli 🤬 

"You say he’s empathetic about the A, but is he really??" I don't know anymore. We still talk about the A every day, and as long as it doesn't turn into my quest for the truth (and by that i mean me digging and digging and digging), he appears beyond remorseful. He never huffs when I ask questions, he checks on me throughout the days, he will make time at work to slink off for an hour and phone me when I'm upset or have more questions. He'll stay up until the early hours answering my questions and going into great detail about why he became such a monster. But yet he still lies? 

Bor9455 -memory certainly IS a funny thing! But quality I could never forget a wagyu steak either 🤤 the A was only 3 months long, but it was incredibly tense. He's surprisingly not claimed to forget much at all. And when he has, we've got the calendar out and gone through bank statements etc. I easily accept when he says he can't remember, so I find it odd that he hasn't used this an excuse much at all 🤔. At this point, he maintains that I know everything he has previously omitted that has been at the fore front of his mind. He says as the A was only 3 months, there is always going to be a point when everything is out and he isn't hiding anything more. I do see where he's coming from but I still feel there is some further details he's omitted on purpose. He is still writing the timeline, and says he will come forward with anything else he remembers or correct any other details he's preciously lied about. He also wants to the take a polygraph to confirm there's nothing he has knowingly lied about. 

Edie - My indeed ☹ 

You pose some excellent questions. What is my truth? I would like to become the person I was before the A. I want to wake up without the feeling of dread. I want to be able to concentrate on the books I've bought to try and heal myself. I want to be able to look at old pictures of our girls, and not feel sad. I want to be a more present mum. I want to have anything in my head other then the A and the damage he's done. 

I just can't see how to get there. 

The1stWife - "I don’t think in 2 months you are going to get what you need." You're right, two months is no where nearly enough.

"He appears to have some serious issues that causes him to lie. " I agree, I think his lying is deeply, deeply ingrained. He even remembers the first time he ever really told his mum a lie. He stole a little toy from another child and gave it to his mum as a present. A while later, a notice was put in the school news letter and his mum asked whether it was the same one he'd given her. He said he felt terrified of being found out, of disappointing his mum. So he lied. He said he knew his mum knew the truth, and instead of encouraging him to come clean with reassurances she will still love him, she just accepted his lie, when it was clear she knew the truth. He hasn't had some awful upbringing, but he had been raised with some damaging family dynamics where he felt he had to lie to keep up appearances of being the perfect little boy and honesty was never a core value.

I pity him in a way 😔 I really don't know if any of this is worth it anymore.

Whiskey,

I want to propose something that I haven’t seen suggest yet. A lot of what you wrote, especially about how much you hate what you’ve become post A has really struck a chord with me.

The truth may just be it’s a dealbreaker for you and no matter what happens you will never be able to be in a romantic relationship with your WH again. It happens, a lot, and many people agonize for years in R only to wake up and realize that they just can’t. Affairs, regardless of length of time can ruin the relationship forever.

There is a user here called waitedtolong, just read his story on his profile. No matter what his wife did to try and fix it, he couldn’t get past it.

I too am working on this problem. I understand completely the repulsion feeling, of not trusting anything especially after being manipulated so much. Think of this, you are basically trying to make a life with someone who has caused you the most emotional pain you likely have ever experienced. A lot of people can’t ever get past it, to a level where they can actually have a relationship again with that person. It’s not because you failed, it’s because of the betrayal.

This is why i really recommend a separation, for you. You need time to get yourself together without the toxic feelings that WH brings you. I took a small separation and went LC with my WW, because I was physically sick around her, and couldn’t even stand to be next to her in bed. It helped me get myself back together, and I was able to make a decision if i really could attempt R with her not if I wanted it or not. It also made her see what her reality would be if we went D, and she has really thrown herself back into R. Things are better for us now.

HINHF - oh, I know the point the poster you've mentioned and his story sticks in my mind. A lot.

My WH agrees I am literally the worst person to have had cheated on (not that there's a good type, it's all a bit tongue in cheek). I seek justice in all aspects of life, including for other people. I am uncomfortable with even the smallest of lies. I'm easily hurt and put others first. I'm an INFJ according the myers briggs test if that means anything to you - the Advocate. I just don't think my personality is suited to R.

We were talking this morning and I said to him, despite the A and the TT, I do still love him. I don't know why. I still very much enjoy his company, we have much better communication since the A (well actually he does), we are still very affectionate. We're oddly still close. But I explained that I just feel this deep seated emptiness now inside, and knowing myself and the way I am, I really feel I just might not be able to get over this. Ironically I think in time, I could forgive him. But I worry our marriage will forever now always just be a half smile, never a grin. I don't know if it's fair that either of us live like that.

His response is that he feels because he's TT so much, he hates to say it but effectively I'm back at square one. He keeps trying to remind me that everyone feels like this in the beginning, and that an A usually takes 3 to 5 years recovery but asserts that we will most likely take longer due to the way I am, and what he did. He is just begging to just give it time to see if I can R, even just for the kids. He reminds me of what our future retirement plans were and what we could look forward to, Christmas with grandkids etc. It's a shame none of this mattered to him when he chose to have an A 😔

Can I ask, do you have children? If you do, how did the temporary separation affect them?

I do have kids, 5, all young. I feel bad about this, but I was able to use my job as a cover for my separation. I am fully prepared to tell them the truth if we ever go to D, but I felt as we may still work out our marriage I wanted to protect them.

Here’s the truth though. My WW and I were fighting all the time, something they have never experienced before, and they all knew something was really wrong. My oldest absolutely knew something had happened, and I suspect more is known than let on. AP was around a lot when the A was going on, (I was out of country for work) and now he isn’t ever mentioned. The way I was treating my WW was making everyone’s lives miserable. I don’t know, it’s complicated. Our family life was hell, toxic, and tense. I came to a decision that I had to do something for my kids, they were innocent and didn’t deserve what was happening.

I don’t regret the separation at all, if for nothing else it gave my kids peace, and things are better now.

Forgiveness doesn’t equal relationship.

You have to make the best decision for yourself. I needed time away from her because I couldn’t stand the sight of her. Love isn’t enough. You say you love WH still, I ask again, do you? Or is it the image you thought had not him?

[This message edited by HellIsNotHalfFull at 12:37 AM, Thursday, August 10th]

We both do need a break. It's just so hard with the kids. They will be broken and I can't seem to bring myself to do that to them, if it's only temporary for a break.

So sorry you're going through all of this. I'm just a year older than you, and it sounds like our kids are maybe about the same age. I separated from my WH and I just wanted to share how I got to that point, in case it's helpful for you.

I didn't like the person this had made me, much like you've described. As much as I didn't want to break apart my family, I realized I couldn't be a good mom to my kids like this. And of course, I am not the one who broke apart the family, my WH is. But still, I knew it was going to be my choice to separate.

It was heartbreaking to have to tell my kids. But having space away from him was so helpful. And my kids have been ok. I wouldn't have put them through this unless it was absolutely necessary. My WH also TT'd me to death, and I just couldn't relax or even begin to heal or feel any peace with him around.

And my WH also didn't have anywhere to go, but I just couldn't concern myself with it anymore. He made his bed, and he had to lay in it. I of course still care about him because he's my kids' dad, like you said, but I had to put myself first so I could begin to heal. I think that's so important. We can't be a good parent in the affair-aftermath state; you must have space to recover.

WhiskeyBlues I am sorry you are here. But for your situation, this is the best place to be.

But my gut is telling me, still, he is hiding some things. My gut has been surprisingly (scarily) accurate. But equally I recognise, I am fallible. I am vulnerable, I am on high alert. There is of course the possibility I am wrong, and he is being truthful in saying that everything he has hidden has been divulged (via TT). I describe this to him as using up all of his possible "trust points" on TT, so there is nothing left for us to build on unfortunately.

I feel I am willing to end our marriage at this point on just a hunch and a (scarily accurate) gut feeling. Because who else can I trust?

This is the thing that I struggled with the most. I KNEW that I knew ALOT about WW's A but my gut was telling me there was more. I was scared that because of my pain and hypervigilance that I was seeing ghosts (things that were not there).

I can't seem to articulate how much I am struggling, and how much this man has messed with my head 😪

When you are traumatized, it is impossible to completely trust yourself. That is the real damage of TT.

My pain and anguish led me to go back and forth with my gut feelings. My gut was mostly accurate, but there were some misses.

This led me to more torturous thoughts, plus self-doubt and the cycle continued. I would question something, she would answer and I felt she was lying. Why? Because she had previously lied sooooo much.

THEN BOOM!!! I got free.

How?

I came to the realization that IT DIDN'T MATTER if she was still lying.

I had ALREADY had enough information to divorce her.

I WOULDNT be "ending our marriage on a hunch" as you put it.

I would be ending our marriage because SHE CHEATED. This lightened the pressure on me tremendously....it wasn't MY job to maintain the marriage...it was ALREADY gone.

I didnt have to figure out if she was lying, I had to figure out if I was willing to go forward with the person in front of me.

I was in control of ME.

I had went to see a lawyer 2 days after DDAY. I was on the verge of filing then and I held back. Later after I reached the point of feeling free, I had a separation agreement drawn up, and the beginning of divorce papers.

I know that in my heart, without a shadow of a doubt, that if I find any more lies about her A, I walk out the door and file. You know what the beauty of it is? She knows too.

WB I think you need to focus on yourself and your own healing.

You need to prepare for D. Not because you "want" to end your marriage but because you need to wrap your mind around the idea that THERE IS a point where YOU decide that your WS is not a safe candidate for R.

If your WH is R worthy, he will TAKE THE ACTIONS TO CONVINCE YOU TO CHANGE YOUR MIND.

YOU are in emotional turmoil (as I was) in trying to "figure out" how to save the M.

YOU have to instead get to the point where you "protect yourself FIRST". YOU have to no longer be a victim of his faults but in control of your own safety and healing.

[This message edited by TrayDee at 6:21 AM, Thursday, August 10th]