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I didn't want to derail the current thread on TT but dealing with a similar but specific issue.

Nearly everything I know about WHs lies and affairs has come from digging for details and from other people. He's confessed a few things but only after I was very close to figuring them out.

Because of this and the fact my gut instinct has been right time and again, I feel there's more I don't know and possibly more APs.

The specific issue I have now is that MC is suggesting that knowing more is not necessary helpful, that essentially knowing there was a pattern of behaviour is enough to decide whether I want to continue trying to R.

I don't agree and am feeling rather distraught. I like our MC but it seems wrong to suggest I should be able to move forward while accepting he may still be lying about the past. Like how can I trust him to be truthful about the present if he's lying about the past?

Has anyone encountered similar advice and been able to R without the full truth?

Note that I am not asking for painful details of his time together with APs, but asking for clarity on things that don't yet make sense AND wanting to know if there were other people and lies I don't know about.

Just because your MC said something doesn’t mean it’s true, as it certainly isn’t true for you.
Your MC is essentially telling you to rugsweep, instead of holding your WS accountable and making him face it.

And to be honest it’s a load of crap. Your WH telling you everything is for you, and for him. It shows that he cares about you and that he has to face consequences and everything he did. Affairs are putting himself above you, R is showing you that he can change by putting you first and reprogramming the behavior that allowed him to cheat.

I am always floored when I see BSs who are willing to suffer through absolute hell of not only multiple affairs (lord knows one is awful enough for me), but the complete lack of respect and empathy from WSs who won’t even acknowledge the damage and do the bare minimum.

My opinion, you can’t actually forgive or R unless you know everything you need to.

It sounds like you may not be ready for MC. Your M didn't cheat, your WH did.

I usually suggest IC for each of you. Yours with a betrayal trauma specialist (with infidelity as an area of expertise, if possible.) IC for your WH to dig into his whys and to work on being a safe partner. When both of you have healed enough and progressed enough, then MC to work on the M. The MC is there to save the M and can suggest things that border on rugsweeping.

Also, it's ok to tell the MC that you disagree with what they are saying.

Thank you both. We are both in IC and started up MC about five months after d day. It has been useful in opening up lines of communication and this is the first time I have felt the advice was unhelpful (and I did disagree with her at the time).

I agree with what you have said HellIsNotHalfFull. I need for him to put my desire for the truth ahead of his needs (which have been to minimize, avoid, and protect himself).

I guess what the MC was saying is that the "truth" is that he has a pattern of lying and cheating and that maybe I don't need to know the smaller details to work through this. I was just curious if anyone else had encountered this approach, but regardless, I don't think it will work for me.

I’m so sorry that you are facing this situation. Unfortunately most BS are in the same boat.

I would venture to say that almost no BS gets the full truth. Whether the cheater doesn’t remember (how convenient) or the cheater is too afraid the marriage will end if they admit the truth, it really doesn’t matter.

What is important is that you are trying to decide what to do. And your future happiness depends upon the truth.

I am 10 years from the disaster of my H’s affair and wanting a D. Typical midlife crisis affair. For context it wasn’t his first either. And that is our sticking point. I believe his first affair 15 years before his second affair was a physical affair, not just an emotional affair. He says otherwise.

I have no proof as this was before texts and cell phones etc. But I’m certain I’m not wrong. But my H refuses to admit to something he says didn’t happen.

In order to R I had to let it go. He was truthful about everything else (to my knowledge). It was a long hard battle but for me, I had to agree to disagree. For 3 years I had this internal struggle. I had to admit to myself there is a possibility I could be wrong.

My point is that YOU need to decide what you need to R. If you need the truth and he’s not willing to give it, maybe you cannot R. If there will always be resentment you may need to reconsider if R is the right path for you.

What your MC was trying to say was that you have knowledge of what happened. You know the extent of the most recent events that led to the affair. Do these additional details make a difference? Does it matter if it was 3 APs vs 7 APs? Only YOU can answer that.

No one can tell you what you need or what is required to R. But I can tell you that if you will resent the fact that your H was not 200% truthful then maybe R is not going to work for you.

I hope this helps you.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 7:31 AM, Wednesday, August 9th]

Thank you The1stWife. I can imagine how hard it would have been letting go the uncertainty of that first affair and am sorry you had to go through any of it.

You have raised good points. I am honestly not sure whether it would make a difference to know right now if there were 7 APs as opposed to the four I am aware of. However, if I envision finding out two years from now that there were others, I think it would be the end for us as I don't think I could tolerate the continued deception. Nor could I tolerate the process of reconciliation again.

PS I had a wry smile at the "convenience" of not remembering information. My WH backs himself a lot on his knowledge and remembrance of situations and facts but is suddenly unsure of so many things.

Oh believe me, I feel your pain (see my other thread - which I'll reply to later as I'm working atm).

I am so so sorry you're in this position, it's torturous. I wish I could give you a hug.

I admit that I probably have details of which I didn't really need or want to know. In all the questions I've asked my WH, I feel deep down all I've really been looking for is his willingness to be 110% honest, IF I wanted to know. Not the actual details themselves per se. All I've wanted is for him to come to me and vomit the truth all over me, until I ask him to stop. And then if at some point I've wanted to know more, I've wanted to be at peace that he would be honest regardless. This should all be my decision to make.

Unfortunately he's not taken this approach. He's chosen to TT and this has resulted in my poor tired soul digging out more details then I can probably stomach. The more he holds back, the more I feel the need to know.

I feel your MC is severely misguided, and all they're doing is entrenching your WS belief that by keeping things from you he's "protecting you". It's bullshit! Your MC should be fully encouraging complete honesty from your WH, whilst reminding you to think carefully about whether the questions you ask are going to help or hinder.

Unfortunately, the MC view doesn't surprise me. WH and I get the same response from everyone we speak to privately - friends and family all ask the same thing "why does she even want to know". Thankfully I know my WH does explain he understand why I need to (Unfortunately he then struggles to actually put this into practice?).

How does your WH respond to the MC? Oh, and of course you need to know whether there's been other AP's! How else are you supposed to know what you're dealing with?

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 10:59 AM, Wednesday, August 9th]

You put it so well WhiskeyBlues...it is that need to know he's willing to be honest - no matter the cost to himself. So sorry you are going through this too...it is excruciating on top of the actual betrayal.

WH hasn't commented too much on what the MC said yet but rather takes the position that I know everything there is to know - I am just not satisfied with the answers I have.

Like your WH, he has previously expressed understanding of my need to know but that understanding and empathy seems to come and go.

When your cheating spouse is still being shady Reconciliation is very challenging.

The "I don’t remember" scenario is so typical — smart people who can remember the date and time you didn’t make their favorite meal or forgot to pick up their dry cleaning, but suddenly cannot remember how many APs there were or when the affair started.

I have to disagree with the MC because your cheater is just being shady about details. And that is not "just another detail" but more importantly, it is a huge issue because you know your H knows the truth. He’s just continuing to be deceptive and ignorant.

He is causing serious problems by continuing to lie. He’s just too stupid to realize it.

BTW many BS are in the same boat. You are not alone. When I confronted my H on dday2 (after having spoken to the OW who threw him under the bus) he admitted to 2 of the 3 things she told me. A few days later he finally admitted to the third thing. He was smart enough to see that lying wasn’t going to get him anywhere.

I hope your H wised up too.

The specific issue I have now is that MC is suggesting that knowing more is not necessary helpful, that essentially knowing there was a pattern of behaviour is enough to decide whether I want to continue trying to R.

I don't agree and am feeling rather distraught. I like our MC but it seems wrong to suggest I should be able to move forward while accepting he may still be lying about the past. Like how can I trust him to be truthful about the present if he's lying about the past?

Has anyone encountered similar advice and been able to R without the full truth?

Note that I am not asking for painful details of his time together with APs, but asking for clarity on things that don't yet make sense AND wanting to know if there were other people and lies I don't know about.

I’m so sorry this has been your experience. Unfortunately, I had a similar one. After D-Day 1 I was consumed with researching Infidelity. Books, videos, websites, etc. I also figured we needed MC ASAP (big mistake). I searched and found an LMFT that was Gottman trained. Our first appointment was a little over a month from D-Day 1.

Subsequently, my WW was trickle truthing me and had held back 4 APs at D-Day 1. 2 more sort of "slipped out" while she was TT and then 2 days before our first MC appointment she sat me down for D-Day 2 and disclosed 2 more APs. D-Day 2 was 3 days and there were more lies, minimizing and TT. I was livid. My WW declared "I’m a liar and a cheater and I need help".

In MC our therapist was waaaaaay overly empathetic to my WW. To the point of mollycoddling her and supplying her with excuses (you were young and afraid. You only lie when backed into a corner). She then told me "you have to accept you have gotten all the information you are going to get and if you can’t, you may need IC". WTF? I responded "well, if this is all the information I get, I’m going to divorce her lying, cheating ass and we are done here". I ended up dropping out of MC and the therapist became WW’s IC until she realized she needed someone "to hold her accountable for her bullshit".

My WW "disclosed" her affairs at my request because I had suspected her of cheating many times and she always lied. I wanted to "get out of my head" and learn the truth so I could forgive her and not have this between us. The affairs were many years ago. But lying to me about it is NOW. She is betraying me NOW. THAT is my issue. How can I stay with someone who would not only do those things, but doesn’t feel "one" enough with me to share her deepest, darkest secrets so we can move forward? This will be our undoing, not the cheating itself.

My WW asked me why I needed more. I explained I can’t forgive what I don’t know. I deserve to know the "truth" about my life and (this is the kicker) I have enough information to leave (you have a pattern of cheating and lying to cover it up) but not enough to stay (you are willing to hit rock bottom and bare your soul to become "one" and a "true life partner" with me). Frankly, my WW has always been selfish (part of what allowed her to cheat) and withholding information because of her shame and pain is being selfish again. Same shitty behaviors but manifesting differently IMO.

From your comment, it sounds like you too may have enough info to leave (the pattern of behavior) but not enough to stay (your US is honest enough to tell you everything no matter how hard it is for him).

I also wasn’t looking for all the dirty details. I really wanted to lay her affairs over my perception of our life and understand what it truly was. I know I didn’t cause her to cheat but what was the state of the marriage. It is also crucial for me to "get in her head" and understand her "whys". This went on for 20 years and a 21 year old newlywed, broke and without children can not have the same headspace as a 41 year well off woman "married" for 20 years with 19 year old and 17 year old kids.

There are also things that come out that must be addressed. Some things may be "deal breakers" beyond the cheating in and of itself. For men, are the kids really mine? Did AP come to the house, meet your kids, etc. For me, there was an instance where we actually separated briefly due to an EA my WW had begun. Reconciliation was dependent upon her going NC. On D-Day I found out She didn’t and the A went on 7-8 more months and although she hadn’t slept with him when we separated, she did later. In our house. With our son at home. All while I think we are rebuilding our marriage….

That’s betrayal on top of betrayal IMO. Asking to come home and rebuild our marriage with no real intention to. How can I trust her to do that now when she won’t admit to everything she’s done?

MC is a waste of time with a spouse who is still lying, whether big or small. In order for MC to be constructive, both partners need to be willing to be completely honest and vulnerable with one another.

How can you allow yourself to be open and vulnerable with someone who is still actively hurting you? That’s like sticking your head up from a foxhole when you know someone is aiming a rifle in your direction.

So sorry you are going through this. It’s so difficult.

We are in MC and have gotten some good things from it. However, with this "knowing the details" thing you just need to hold your ground. The details are important for a lot of different reasons and YOU get to decide why. Here is an example from my own MC experience:

My husband is a sex addict and he was preparing to reveal this fact (in a therapy session) to our 2 adult children (18 and 24). He intended to keep away from details, by he was told to prepare for the question, "Was what you did consensual?" This is a big question with people of my kids’ age. My husband casually said to me, "And I will reassure the kids that it was."

* If I could insert the sound of my mouth falling open right now I would. *

My husband was with a prostitute in South Korea. He is an educated man, a man that called himself a feminist, who had watched documentaries about sex trafficking. He absolutely knows that there is no certainty that this act was consensual on her part. Maybe it was, but maybe it wasn’t. There is no way of knowing … and this is one of the very reasons many societies (including South Korea) keep it illegal. People can feel however they want about the morality of prostitution, but asserting that it is always 100 percent consensual is such a blatant fucking lie.

We brought this disagreement to MC so we could work through it before my husband’s reveal to our adult kids. The MC couldn’t understand my POV. She kept saying, "Well, he paid for a service." I kept saying, "Since when does payment preclude legality or consensuality?" She just stared at me blankly. She just couldn’t get her head around the logic, or my point of view, but I decided I just didn’t care. I am telling you this because I held firm and I am so grateful I did.

During the session our kids never asked the question (thank goodness!) but the next time it came up in MC my husband actually defended me! He said he didn’t want to admit it to himself, of course, but there really is no way of knowing for sure that the act was consensual. He’s an adddict and he blocked out any of the exploitive aspects of what he was doing to quell the cognitive dissonance. I looked her in the eye and said something to the effect that I just can’t turn away from the fact that many of these women are not acting consensually. Some ARE but some are NOT. It’s not a moral thing; it’s just a fact that we can’t shy away from. She really had no idea what to say.

But here’s the thing. Holding my ground with the MC was SO good for my husband’s sobriety and for our potential R. During the next few weeks I found him basically curled up in a ball several times as he was processing just how far addiction had taken him away from himself. It scares the shit out of him, as it should. He goes to all of his meetings … he’s in some kind of meeting or therapy 4 days a week. He talks about fear of complacency because he never wants to go back there. This detail was WAAAYYY bigger and more important than the MC ever understood.

Figure out what you need to explore and what you need to know and remember you write the story … not the MC.

The specific issue I have now is that MC is suggesting that knowing more is not necessary helpful, that essentially knowing there was a pattern of behaviour is enough to decide whether I want to continue trying to R.

I don’t take this as your MC suggesting you don’t need to know more. I take it as your MC suggesting you already could have a good picture or idea if you can reconcile with your husband. I think the fact you still have doubts about the story is telling you that you can’t.

Maybe that’s the message your husband and the MC need to hear:

"So far everything has been dragged out piecemeal from WH and there are still big gaps that need filling. He’s not willing to be honest, and thereby letting me know he doesn’t trust me. With no trust there isn’t really any way we can reconcile and create the marriage I want. Therefore it’s best we start discussing how to separate"

MABYE realizing that if he doesn’t start participating will cost him the marriage is the kick your husband needs.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:06 AM, Thursday, August 10th]

So sorry that so many of you have been down this same road. ForestFirePine, thank you for sharing your story...it helps bring another perspective to why MCs are not always right and why the WS really needs to face up to the truth.

And yes, Bigger, the truth for me is that I can't move forward without more answers and transparency over the past. I think that is the irony of having the "choice" of R. It is not much of a choice (or at least not a compelling one) if the WS is not fully participating. Of course he would say that he is and he's doing many things right, apart from the TT, vagueness, and defensiveness.

When you decide you have enough detail about his past affairs is exactly the moment when you have enough details.

No sooner than that moment. Nobody else gets to decide that for you.

This is your choice, not your marriage counselor’s, not your WH’s, nobody else’s. Yours.

Also, if a marriage counselor thinks that a marriage can be successful with one partner lying about affair partners, or with one partner believing that there are lies continuing about affair partners, then that counselor needs to rethink their strategy.

Maybe the marriage counselor is trying to tell you to leave….

Well, the MC is right - more info can hurt or be neutral. So what? You want to know what you want to know.

I interrogated my W for weeks, maybe months. I can still ask questions 12+ years after the A ended. We went onto MC on d-day; our MC told my W to answer all the questions I asked, unless an answer broke confidentiality (ap was W's client).

The answers had immense benefits, but the benefits I expected didn't come about.

I expected that info would help me understand the A. It didn't. I'm faithful. I can certainly think WS thoughts, but I don't act on them. Back when cash was used, I used to go back to cashiers who gave me too much change. (I caught too little change right away. ) I knew that it would often have been better for the cashier if I didn't go back, but I did it anyway.

Here are some benefits:

Every honest answer

- added a little bit of trust
- added to the bonds between us
- let me recalibrate my reading of her non-verbal communications
- helped my W take responsibility for what she did
- her willingness to show herself in a bad light supported her claim that she wanted to R, IMO
- and if she had answered dishonestly, I think I'd have known it was time to split.

So my reco to all BSes is to ask questions until you have no questions left, but each BS needs to decide for themselves how much questioning is best for themselves.

BTW, Peggy Vauhgan wrote a book called Help for Therapists (and their Clients), in which her survey respondents who were BSes said R worked out better the more info they got from their WSes. It used to be a free download, but I can't find it. You might mention it to your MC and to your WS.

Our MC said something similar. It was probably well meaning, but wrong. I had asked questions for several years, and was challenged every time by AP, and MC encouraged/challenged me to explain myself.

I did get answers that I had asked for years, and it was helpful to get those answers. It turns out that I knew what I needed more than AP knew, and more than MC knew. Imagine that (sarcasm).

There are overarching questions that are a lot easier to answer when you have the details…easier to answer if WP is willing to provide the details:
- is WP willing to hold themselves fully accountable?
- is WP trustworthy?
- BP, by not knowing what happened, was powerless. Is WP willing to cede power?
- did WP treat AP differently than BP? Did WP feel differently with AP?
- did WP get different treatment from AP?
- what was WP looking for and what did AP provide? Thrill? Escape? Ego boost?

Sure, the WP could try to answer these questions without providing details, but it wouldn’t be very believable.

WP could also say he had a record breaking catch on a fishing expedition, but if he refuses to identify the boat, who was with him, the type of fish, size of the fish, bait used, date and time…we know he is telling fish tales.