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Well, it felt like things were going well for awhile but on friday night things took a turn for the worse.

This all was precipitated by my desire to talk about certain emails my wife had sent her AP. Their A ended a long time ago but I found a bunch of emails between them in January that were frankly just horrible and Im unsure if I will ever be able to get over them.

She most likely (sadly I will never say Im certain) is genuinely a different person now 18 years later, but some things are just not that easy to get over even if that is true and given I discovered these emails within the past year I beleive that is a full reset on R. Ive been doing better about not feeling the need to talk about her A and things are good when we dont, but I feel pressured not to talk about it because every so often she’ll say she is so happy that I seem to be doing better and I dont want to dissapoint her or risk pushing her away. Its also just a really difficult topic and can lead to exactly whats going on now. I feel like Im walking in a minefield whenever we talk about it.l so its easier just to avoid it but then it can eat at you.

On Friday we dropped our teen daughter and her friends off at a concert and had dinner across the street. I got to telling her how a few of these emails are really bothering me. All of this for her is ancient history that she says she looks back on with disbelief and remorse but it was things like the fun times and tender moments with him were deeper and more meaningful than theyde ever been with me, and how he made her feel smart, sexy, funny, and more lighthearted about herself than I have ever been able to on my best day. I realize they say these things while in a fog but still thats just horribly hurtful on a very deep level. One of the very last emails she sent to AP was expressing disappointment that AP had not set the proper conditions for her to leave me for him because he grew impatient with her indecision to leave me and started dating someone else. Basically I was plan B and because that was literally one of the last emails she sent to him, I still feel today like plan B no matter what she says otherwise. Had he simply not dated anyone else, she’d have left me. Thats how it was left between them. Ive brought this up before hoping for some magically empathetic response from her but typically what Ill get is some combination of "You have to realize that I was literally out of my mind insane", and "I dont even remember writing him that". This really frustrates me when she does this because its basically not taking ownership. The person who wrote those things was in fact her, fully cogent, fully aware and understanding of her actions, and there is literally no difference between the way she seems like she genuinely loves me now vs how she also acted like a genuinely loving wife before betraying and belittling me in the worst way. Im pretty sure there is a well known formula to go by when expressing remorse and literally one of the main things is taking ownership. To me there is no way to show remorse without first owning it and she has a real hard time with that. I then showed her the actual email that was saved as a screenshot on my phone (I made her read them all once before but disapointingly she didnt really have a whole lot to say). She just started saying if I didnt stop it she would leave which made me even more upset and really angry because now she was threatening to leave in response to me trying to get her to check off point 1 of an effective repair. If you ask her, she is the victim of my lack of forgiveness. DARVO much? Around this time we both left together but I had just had enough, was so frustrated, and walked off without her. Not the best move to resolve a conflict I know. Since we were meeting our daughter and friends a few blocks away I knew where she would be and did end up giving her, my daughter and her friends a ride home. But this kicked off a full blown stonewalling and we are now on day three of no talking and her sleeping in another room. At this point Im not even sure whos stonewalling who but she has made no attempt at communication and has sought to avoid me everywhere.

I do really want to resolve this and go back to our normally nice state of being with one another, but not by groveling and coming to her to apologize and then for her to probably say something like "Im sick of this and if you do that again Im done". Um no. This time I AM DONE. Im just not doing it anymore. Im sick of being the one to grovel for her to come around. I feel like its always me that apologizes in order to restore peace. Admit it was all my fault. Beg for her to give me another chance. Its insulting when the issue is caused by her affair, the humiliating, emasculating words she wrote, and her pathetic lack of ownership. Im sick of giving away my power in this relationship. Honestly, I think I feel like I just might have the courage now to move out into our rental condo after I get back from a camping trip Ive had planned with my friends this week. Do a trial separation with no contact except for anything kid related. I really feel like the only way this actually might work out is if I take an action to restore some sense of self respect, and if I feel wanted and appreciated by her to such a degree that it offsets the complete humiliation she has caused. Maybe for that to happen I need to prove my willingness to walk away from her and for once to be the one who cares less about us staying together than her. Maybe this is the way things end though. To her on a good day, Im an attractive, great partner and Dad, but should anything like this ocur, Ive just been "sucking the joy out of her life for awhile now". I just feel so sick to my stomach and depressed.

It’s been my experience in relationships that the one who isn’t afraid of losing the relationship, is the one with the power. WARNING: You really have to be okay with losing the relationship.

Also know there are sooooo many good women out there that have not, would not ever treat you like that woman treated/still treats you! Just saying…..

Your wife has never faced any consequences because you were always available and willing to forgive. She never had to be accountable for her actions. The cheating has never been addressed and you don’t have closure . Why not go NC and show her you are serious this time about separation?

I've not been in your position, but as an outsider it's pretty obvious that her reply to you was abusive. You were in pain and she threatened to leave you. She is clearly putting her pain over yours. I wouldn't advise you of any specific action, but I would say she doesn't appreciate your gift of reconciliation.

Edited: I thought about this some more. While I sympathize with you, you likely are contributing to the bad blood right now with the means you're using for these discussions. The recent comment while visiting your hometown and this--I assume from her perspective coming out of the blue--aren't helpful. I myself am struggling with issues in my marriage from early on--for reasons I cant explain--and I've learned that fresh wounds for me may be scabbed over for her. You absolutely have to learn how to cope with these intrusive thoughts and she absolutely owes it to you to do some heavy lifting, especially if she never did prior to this. Just don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

[This message edited by 1994 at 4:06 PM, Tuesday, September 5th]

You said you would forgive her a long time ago and there's a problem with that. Your description of the emails align with the A story on your profile and I'm not sure how they change anything (they can be a trigger of course)?

IMHO after so much time, saving these screenshots, keeping them with you and shoving into your wifes face on a random dinner is super toxic for you and your merrige and proves that you still have a lot of trauma in you. Did you work on it or just rug swept? Are you both on the same team in your opinion?

Would it be possible for you and your W to agree that you have unresolved trauma, that this is normal and needs to be addressed with a specialist in a compassionate, non-toxic manner?

[This message edited by Potentialforevil at 8:50 AM, Tuesday, September 5th]

It’s been some time since your d-day and it doesn’t really sound like there has been any new discovery that triggers your present rection…
What this suggests to me is that despite you two maybe declaring forgiveness and reconciliation then whatever tool or method you used isn’t working…

Please – I’m not allocating blame or fault or even suggesting you get over it.
I’m simply going to suggest that whatever you and your wife did – by mutual decision or each in individual corners – to reconcile your marriage isn’t working.

It’s like if this was a gardening forum and your issue was that no matter how careful you are with your hoe you always crush the strawberries when picking them… We could give you lots of advice on better hoe-handling, but maybe the real solution would be to change tools – to pick them by hand.

I’m wondering if your method of dealing with the infidelity and her method (and it does sound like you each handle it differently) aren’t working, and that to try again – and again – and again – and again… is futile.

My suggestion:
Search for a therapist that specializes in infidelity. Ask him a key-question: Does he think that infidelity is ever the fault of the betrayed person? The therapist is allowed to suggest that certain conditions in a marriage are more conductive to infidelity, but NEVER that the decision by your WW to have an affair is due to your actions. [To use a weak but rather good comparison: it’s like a woman could wear a sexy outfit and walk through a rough part of town. The outfit and her location might make her a target for rape, but if she were it would still be 100% on the rapist. You could be the husband from hell, but that would at most give your wife the option to divorce, not have an affair.]

Once you have that therapist then demand your wife and you get professional help.

Previously she threatened to leave if you pressured her for further actions. Well… I’m going to state as a fact that if you two don’t deal with this trauma your marriage is doomed anyways. You might still be together in 20 years, but in misery. It’s better to pull the bandage – heal the wound – and work on the potential of a GREAT marriage. Even at the risk of losing this one.

You rugswept the affair, and finding thr emails brought it all back up.

It's a risky topic. You can't discuss it without feeling like you're in a minefield,or she gets angry.

She's the victim because you're upset over her affair.

She claims insanity,and won't discuss.

This is what happens when you rugsweep. Eventually, the feelings you stuff down will come out.

If she were remorseful, she would understand your need to talk,and get clarity. She wouldn't stonewall you. There would be no minefield.

She's not remorseful. That's clear.

She never did any work to become a safe person. Trying to live with someone like that,hinders the betrayed spouses ability to heal. You've never really healed. I agree with one thing from the above post..you have unresolved trauma, due to rugsweeping the affair, and living in a minefield with an unremorseful WS.

The two of you either need to work TOGETHER to reconcile properly,or you need to decide if you're ok with the things she said to him,and the fact that she won't do the work to become a fws. There is more than simply not cheating to become a fws. Time does nothing.

A few suggestions that might help:

Your wife lacks a fundamental understanding of what infidelity does and how trauma works. She thinks this was all settled years ago but now what the two of you rugswept comes back and she's clueless that it's completely normal. Getting some information to her may be of help. "How to help your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" may be a good resource.

I agree with others that she most likely never processed her own inner flaws that led to her affair. At least not fully. Your trauma re-emerges and she is confronted with her betrayal again. Ok, that's got to be painful, right? She's reminded that she was the villain in your marrriage years ago and she feels very uncomfortable with that because she never did the difficult work on her inner self. I say this to put her reaction at least a tiny bit into perspective. I can see where all that would be a mindf*** for her. Yes, it's one she created and she needs to own for a successful R but still, I can understand why her head must be spinning.

Her threats toward you are completely unacceptable and you should point that out very clearly. The separation would send that signal but you could try just articulating it in writing or verbally first too. Consider telling her and also handing her a resource to learn about infidelity. If you can muster it, show a bit of empathy for her and how she must feel with your trauma coming back but make it clear that her reaction/threats toward you must change or the marriage will end. It's a mix of standing up for yourself, educating her and then getting professional help to work through it.

I second the suggestions to seek counseling. Clearly, what you've done so far hasn't worked, so it's time to change tactics and get some professional help.

I also agree with Potentialforevil that ambushing her at dinner wasn't the best idea. In the future, consider telling her, "I have some heavy stuff that I'd like to discuss. Let me know when you're available for that."

I think that what I'd do if I were in your shoes is make an appointment for MC when you know she'll be available and invite her to join you. Her reaction to that will probably tell you all that you need to know.

In the future, consider telling her, "I have some heavy stuff that I'd like to discuss. Let me know when you're available for that."

Or just tell her what you really want. "I feel bad, I need your help." Tell that and see what happens.

Based in the fact that there is stonewalling behavior occurring right now, you will never resolve this issue about whether you really are plan B.

IMO if the roles were reversed you would have poured your heart out at that moment to convince your wife she is the love of your life and those words were a mistake blah blah blah.

I don’t think you are asking for much at all. A little encouragement or show of support is nothing to give.

Unfortunately you asked the wrong person. Why is she the wrong person? Because it appears to me she knows you are not going to leave her and she expects YOU to yield to her.

Instead she should be willing to give support to you - and admit that those emails are detrimental to you and your marriage. She should be willing to apologize.

I once was you. My H had more control and I had very little power. Until the day I kicked him to the curb after his last affair and told him I was D him.

Should have done it after his first affair!!!! Lesson learned. He knows now I will walk out the door if I have to.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:01 AM, Saturday, September 9th]

One of the key aspects for being in R is that the A is always an available topic to the BS or the WS to bring up (at the appropriate time/place of course, you shouldn't just be bringing it up at a party out of the blue). You can't rugsweep your way into reconciliation.

Thinking of "how to help you spouse heal from your affair" by Linda MacDonald, how much is your WS in the "detain and torture" mode of reconciliation. The haphazard unguided attempt.

That's what it looks like to me from here. Does she say things like "that was a long time ago, can't you just get over it already?"

I don't bring up the A much, because we talked about it a lot and I'm satisfied with the answers. Sometimes we talk about it after watching a TV show or movie with infidelity. Sometimes she brings it up first because she has earned forgiveness and that includes a transference of vigilance.

When we set the terms for R, one of the important things was that the A was not ever going to go away. There is not going to be a point where I just "get over it" and don't mention it again ever. There is not going to be a point where "I'm sorry" isn't an appropriate thing for her to say again. The answer to "are you ever going to just drop it?" Is, "no". And she need to either be OK with that, or she needs to pack it up because she isn't cut out for R.

GC,

I do get why you never recovered, after your kids have grown and you no longer have that bond it feels, to me, like I've won an empty prize and OM got the best my WW could give.

You wrote that your WW had an orgasm with OM through penetration but never with you, was that ever fixed.

Sometimes it seems women have more love for total losers like they are protecting an innocent child or whatever.

Hi GC,

So many similarities in our stories and I just wanted to support you today...but I honestly dont't know if it will be encouraging to you or not. As I said, our stories have many similarities. Discovered emails/chats years after the event. Wife claiming some form of insanity at the time ("Lost" is what I get) in an attempt to explain the words/belittling/emasculation as holding no real meaning. Direct verbal comparisons to the AP. A sort of shame shut down if I bring it up (although without the "mean-ness" I sense in your WW) and when I showed her the chat...she had zero recollection whatsoever that any conversation like that ever took place. Stunned. At herself. Never attepmted to deny or deflect but in all honesty did not remember that she spoke like that...ever. So one thing I want to "encourage" you with is that her "insanity" plea might actually be her "owning" it as much as she can/knows how to at least right now (now..her getting pissy with you is most certainly NOT owning it). But, she might not actually be deflecting/attempting to minimize it as much as it seems that she is. As my wife tells it she was so hopped up on some cocktail of dopamine, terror, desperation, adrenaline etc. that words and deeds were flying out of her life that were the defintion of bizarre, unreasonable, and FLAT UNTRUE. Case in point...(and I apologize for the likely trigger...but I think this is my best personal example to share and also TMI warning)...when my wife and are physcially intimate, frankly, I wreck her (in all the best ways just to clarify). Multiple O's (with indisputable unfakable evidence for those that might question it), positions, down for adventure etc...every d*mn time. I have lived this. For years. First hand indisputable knowledge of this. And yet...in her chat to AP2...she can't wait to be with him to escape her "vanilla" sex life of making love only "one boring way" her whole life. Yep. Of course I demanded an explanation for this. Her explanation was shockingly short and concise. "I was terrified and desperate and I was lying to him". "I was saying and doing things to secure him as a safe landing spot once you discovered my affair with AP1 and threw me out." "It was to make an impression on him...to build him up and boost his ego as high as I could so I could hook him and keep him hooked." Alllll fueled by that aformentioned cocktail. Now...she's utterly ashamed to have done this...on MULTIPLE levels (how sh*tty to have done this)..it's almost unbearable for her to have to acknowledge that she was this desperate, shallow, lying, manipluating person..."cocktail" induced or not. But...she does. And that's the discouraging part I guess in my support of you today...on the one hand, having first hand experience with being belittled in print from my wife to a lover, I want to encourage you that it is very possible she is being as honest and "owning" of it as she has the ability to do and be at the moment...that she actually DOES feel like she was an insane person at that time hopped up on all sorts of fatal life/affair "juices" that were having her acting in appropriately insane, inauthentic, UNTRUE ways in word and deed. And the things she actually said...are very possibly flat untrue lies told to keep him "hooked" for her own reasons. The most effecient way to build a new man up is to tear the old one down in comparison...even if you have to lie to do it. Some days this helps me...other days not so much. But I think it is true either way. I hope you find some value in it. I'm terribly sorry this happened to you.

But...

Then...on the other hand...It does not seem that your WW has acknowledged that she is in fact that person. The it was her, fogged, juiced, lost, insane or not. And that is where, I guess I want to simply validate your feelings and let you know you are NOT crazy for hurting this deeply and this badly after all of this time...even with your mistakes in the process (don't spring affair discussions on her randomly...especially at a restaurant...on a kid's outing ;-) ) this is NOT ON YOU. But I also want to say this clearly to validate the crisis you feel right now:

I have a remorseful wife...and I am not totally certain I will overcome the things she did and especially the belittling things she said during her "lost" time. Even with remorse. Even with the explanation of how I know the belittling was flat UNTRUE...I do not know if I will overcome it. It is THE focal point in my IC right now and even with the IC...I am stuck. This much I know without a doubt...without my wife's FULL support and remorse...there is ZERO chance I could/would even think about doing this reconciliation thing. I can BARELY do it with all of that. If my wife threatened to leave me because of my struggle to recover from her assault on me, my manhood, our children, our life and our family, and was dismissive of my pain at ANY time for ANY reason...I would be done. I would have to be done. At some level...it's just MATH. Subtract remorse...and nothing works.

Now, that's not saying instant D...but I would do something drastic, such as you are considering. I would for certain at least give her a taste (and honestly get one of my own) of what life would be like without me/us. And if she wound up being cool with that? Then I would kind of know where her heart really is wouldn't I?
Certainly not suggesting a definitive course of action for you...yours are the boots on the ground of your life. But just wanting to add my voice and experience to the others' today.

I so hope you figure this out and heal GC...I know first hand that what you are living right now is no way to live.

WH