SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your thread indicated you wanted to hear folks « thoughts » so even though I have no direct advice to give I’m gonna share my thoughts.

I had actually typed out a response a few days ago but deleted it because I was figuring others were saying basically the same things I would. But, I know from my own situation I like to hear other people’s observations so for what its worth here goes…

My first response to the work situation was hell no. I can see you have thought it through in depth so you have to trust your own judgement. But, it may change. My husband cheated in the literal physical offices. It was many years ago but he never told me it had been physical until a year ago. Suddenly those offices became my worst nightmare. Now when he goes in them it is torture of a sort. I do what you have described and watch his location exactly in the building and when he moves I see it. Some weeks I don’t look and its all fine. Other weeks I can get triggered and end up calling, showing up, etc. My husband has been essentially 100% compliant post d-day as it sounds like your wife has been. So we have this awful situation which no one can fix. He can quit but then we probably would have more trouble paying for 3 kids in college.

I have tried to take it one day, one month at a time and reserve the right to change my mind.

On the topic of horrible atrocious WS behavior…

The response I typed then deleted was that there is always horrible atrocious WS behavior any time there is an A. It is de rigueur. I agree with what Chamomile Tea said. At some point, maybe not now, but when you feel ready, it is going to have to be written off, to free you from the torture.

I don’t know if you should forgive. Those things you describe sound terrible. There are sadly lots of stories of people in hospitals whose spouses are off taking advantage of that moment to cheat. Doesn’t make it okay. Doesn’t mean you have to forgive her. But this is what they do.

My husband’s appalling acts dont sound so appalling probably but to me they were. He let this lady come to my children’s school while my son was at a rehearsal. They sat on a bench and had a thing there. I would like to punish her for this in ways that would get me arrested. How dare she come to my babies’ safe space and how dare he let her. She was in our car on two occasions. She was in our boat. The AP gave my husband her daughter’s handmedown clothes and I had my kids wearing these things for years. Another thing that used to make me infuriated was that my husband sat at my graduation for medical residency that I had worked hundreds of hours at for years for this one moment of recognition, after countless nights in the hospital, missing out on all my kids childhood to accomplish this one goal and he spent the whole time texting his AP about what a waste of time the whole thing was. When i think of all the support I’ve given him this behavior sickens me. I truly thought I could never get over these things (and many others). But honestly writing them now my blood pressure barely rises. I really don’t care that much now. Because it has been many years now and he has made innumerable apologies and he has sat through innumerable crying sessions.

Sometimes he’s a jerk, so I am not saying we are 100% smooth sailing. I’m just saying it has been a surprise to me that these egregious acts are fading in intensity in their ability to get me worked up.

This was one of the things that made me hesitant to try to recover because I didn’t think the intense pain over these things would ever settle down. But they seem to sort of be doing that. I hope that IF you decide to continue with recovery, then the horrible memories you have settle down and the pain from them diminishes. If that really is what you want.

My point basically was that if they last for long enough (the A that is) then eventually they end up doing absolutely despicable things. There is no way out of it. So end your marriage if you so choose, but if you choose not to then know that with time the intensity of the pain on some of these things may diminish.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 1:20 AM, Tuesday, September 19th]

Road 1 is reconciliation where I have to carry this burden for the rest of my life.

It takes a long time, no doubt about that, but it's not a forever "burden". I'm over eight years out now, and I don't feel burdened at all. We don't forget. I mean, it's something that happened, but it's not defining and painful like it was. Once you've really reached acceptance and healing, it's in the past.

One thing that will help, if you're really truly set on achieving R, is to correct yourself when you view your WS in a "burden" kind of way, like they're used goods, or irredeemable. It's really natural to get focused on the WS's loss of our respect and then allow it to translate to loss in value. But.. if the WS is worthy of our gift of R, their value as a partner has to be recognized as undiminished. This is the choice we make and we are ultimately in charge of that choice.

Just remember that it's all a process and it takes time to trust the WS's changes, to trust our own judgment, and to tame our inner monologue.

I want to reiterate what stillconfused said. Almost every A has things that are pretty much unforgivable, more than the A itself. It’s something that seems to spawn from the nature of As. The thrill of taboo and doing something that shouldn’t, make people behave in atrocious ways. Do they get a pass? No of course not.

I offer this up, because maybe it will help you if you decide to keep in R. Every BS has a story or too about something that is just awful that their spouse did during an A. It comes with the territory. To me, it has helped. The A isn’t special, what happened isn’t special or unique, it’s what happens.

I think CT is right as well. There is no justice, there will never be an even score. I’d say don’t worry about forgiveness, that should be the last thing on your mind. If in time, you get there then you can. Recommend a book called "How can I forgive you " it does an in depth analysis into it, and even talks about that you don’t actually have to forgive anything.

AHH,

Did your WW ever get back to where you felt she sincerely loved you or did / do you feel she never completely did?

What is her current opinion of the OM did she reach a state of indifference or hate?

What does your WW think about what she did to OMW and kids?

My thought is give yourself a break. You have only been aware for three months. Your wife kept it from you for years and has had plenty of time to prepare whatever iron clad story she wanted. You on the other hand are reeling and rightfully so. It is way too early to be making any firm decisions.

The fact that she has been a miracle wife for three months means nothing in the long haul. Her past behavior screams of self entitled behavior. You find out and she has a massive epiphany. It just seems so self serving and contrived. If she was so guilt ridden, why not tell you the truth before?

Maybe she really is as you say, but you really need to take time and observe. Meanwhile, you might ask why in five years she hasn’t gotten around to finding another job. Do you really plan on checking up on her every time she goes to work indefinitely? This seems so draining.

Give yourself the gift of finding your anger, then calm, then worry about what you can and can’t get past.

I am sorry for what you are going through, just reading about this made me very uncomfortable.
I cannot imagine the amount of bitterness and pain this leaves in your heart. Her actions seem deliberate , malicious and show blatant disregard for you and your precious kids.
You must address this, before you even commit or even consider R.

Is it possible for you to separate temporarily, just to heal from this? There is a lot to process here and you must.

I hope you are doing ok health wise and have recovered well. I cannot imagine the stress all this has placed on you. Please be kind to yourself. Put your healing first.

Had no real future with her AP.

Had her fun

About to lose her lifestyle and everything you've worked for

Easy to be "100% committed and remorseful" and do everything right but

She was who she wanted to be and did what she wanted to do, fully aware of her actions and pursued it with gusto.

Now she gets "redemption" and keeping her life.

It's a win win really.

[This message edited by Tren0R201 at 6:46 AM, Tuesday, September 19th]

What you do from this point is your decision. If you think that you can have a fulfilling life with her despite her actions, you should go for it. Sounds like you have put her feet to the fire, and she has responded positively in trying to make you feel better. I agree with with CT about writing off the debt, although I could never accomplish that.

I would just stay vigilant. These type of soul mate affairs, even after a bad break up, can restart. This is especially concerning as she still has contact with him.

Has she ever explained how she could befriend the other BS, and blended your families in social situations? Did you have much contact with the AP and how do you feel about that?

I'm sorry, but risking the health..the life..of your child..should NEVER be put in the category of stupid shit a cheater does during their affair. That is a whole different animal. Sure,we all have something our ws did that was terrible on top of terrible. Risking a child is not something that should be tossed in that pile of shit,and accepted.

My opinion.

I agree. IMO, there are levels of risk that are all terrible, but some are worse than others.

Level 1: Unprotected sex with the AP
Level 2: Unprotected sex with the AP while pregnant
Level 3: Unprotected sex with the AP while pregnant KNOWING that he has HSV2.

That's pretty egregious, man. I'm not saying that you can't R with that information, but whew, it's a tough ask to get over that.

I’m so sorry,

Another important question as what was their relationship after the affair ended?

Did they still talk?

This seems weird to me.

You may have read a journal so you have more information than most but are you sure you know everything?

Okay, I'll do my best to respond to everyone.

HINHF - I think CT is right as well. There is no justice, there will never be an even score. I’d say don’t worry about forgiveness, that should be the last thing on your mind. If in time, you get there then you can. Recommend a book called "How can I forgive you " it does an in depth analysis into it, and even talks about that you don’t actually have to forgive anything.

I know it's going to take a long time to forgive. It's like trust. Will I ever blindly trust her again....never...but I know we'll start with honesty and work to monitored trust. Forgiveness, I know someday, as the wounds lessen their intensity, I'll closer to forgiveness. CT is spot on with what she's saying.

Survrus - Did your WW ever get back to where you felt she sincerely loved you or did / do you feel she never completely did?
What is her current opinion of the OM did she reach a state of indifference or hate?
What does your WW think about what she did to OMW and kids?

She actually always acted like she loved me. It's been one of the hardest aspects of this because she compartmentalized so well. I challenged her the other night about this very issue because how can I believe her that she'll never do it again, if all it takes is for her to compartmentalize the situations. The OM disgusts her, both from his actions, but also it causes her a lot of guilt and worse...shame...because she chose him over me and our family. She doesn't hate him, but she is closer to indifference. Also she's extremely shameful about what she did to the OMW and all of the kids. She doesn't take it lightly. I know this has been a disputed issue, but, as twisted as this sounds, my WW did actually build a friendship with the OMW, but my WW was truly a broken person, and is many ways still is but she's working on those issues. She has worked on herself over the last 6 years as well, but there are pieces to her that she couldn't deal with until this was out in the open.

Longsadstory52 - There isn't a single point you bring up that I haven't thought about. I'm doing my best to be patient with any decision, and just focus on me and fixing me first and laying out a path to recovery for us. If she can't maintain it, then we're done. One thing to understand is my discovery is very different that most other peoples. I literally read 90% of their text communication (which was their primary communication) because my WW screen shotted everything...(yes it's mental and we've discussed it) so I learned more than I really wanted but there's not a lot she can hide from me.

Abalone - I am sorry for what you are going through, just reading about this made me very uncomfortable.
I cannot imagine the amount of bitterness and pain this leaves in your heart. Her actions seem deliberate , malicious and show blatant disregard for you and your precious kids.
You must address this, before you even commit or even consider R.

Is it possible for you to separate temporarily, just to heal from this? There is a lot to process here and you must.

I hope you are doing ok health wise and have recovered well. I cannot imagine the stress all this has placed on you. Please be kind to yourself. Put your healing first.

Yes, I have resentments and I have addressed all of these issues with my WW. There are some perspectives I'm getting from this discussion that I haven't looked at so I'll be doing that as well. I considered a separation but chose not to do that so far (it's still and option) because I'm trying to have this not impact my children. I'm seeing if I can heal without throwing their life up in the air, and only having this affect them if I can't achieve my goal.

In regards to my health, I'm actually recovered from what I was dealing with. Short story. I was put into the hospital with Rhabdomyolysis with a creatine count of over 72,000 (that is the hospitalization I referenced during the affair), while in the hospital, they discovered I had a heart defect but wouldn't tell me what it was, it had to be discussed with a cardiologist. About a month later, and lots of stress, I found out I had a bicuspid aortic valve in severe condition and my aorta was ascended (stretched out). Yes, if I hadn't ended up in the hospital, I probably would have had a massive heart attack/aortic aneurism and be dead right now. In Jan 2020, I had my heart valve replaced with a mechanical valve and they checked my aorta, which is in acceptable condition (they don't want me doing extreme weight lifting, but other than that I get to live a normal life.) So from a health standpoint, I'm in a much better position.

Tren0R201 - Had no real future with her AP.
Had her fun
About to lose her lifestyle and everything you've worked for
Easy to be "100% committed and remorseful" and do everything right but
She was who she wanted to be and did what she wanted to do, fully aware of her actions and pursued it with gusto.
Now she gets "redemption" and keeping her life.
It's a win win really.

I wrote about this issue in my post I wrote when I first found out. This is one of my resentments. This is one of the biggest costs to the betrayed spouse who choses to reconcile. Our WS goes out, does their thing, and comes home with a massive "bill" to pay. The only way a family stays together is if the BS pays the bill. Additionally, the BS invariably has to work on themselves in this process so the WS gets an EVEN BETTER spouse than they had before the A. I'm not going to minimize what a WS who is in REAL reconciliation has to go through to fix themselves and their marriage, but it is significant, but they'd have to do that anyway because it was their own actions that brought it about, but putting the larger bill on their BS and in a weird sense, getting rewarded for it is one of the biggest issues with R.

(continuing on a new post because of length.)

She purposely injected herself into her other man's home life. She pretended to be his wife's friend. Your families spent time together.

There is no way she compartmentalized. She didn't put the OM in a box,and go home to you and keep her worlds separate. Both boxes were not only colliding, but they were wide open.

You believe she was a friend to his wife? Do you believe OM was your friend?

WWTL - What you do from this point is your decision. If you think that you can have a fulfilling life with her despite her actions, you should go for it. Sounds like you have put her feet to the fire, and she has responded positively in trying to make you feel better. I agree with with CT about writing off the debt, although I could never accomplish that.

I would just stay vigilant. These type of soul mate affairs, even after a bad break up, can restart. This is especially concerning as she still has contact with him.

Has she ever explained how she could befriend the other BS, and blended your families in social situations? Did you have much contact with the AP and how do you feel about that?

So one thing that I think gets missed (not by you but I wanted to address this) is the impact that more than 5 years of almost no contact. Some of that was the initial break up and then from 2019 through this year, my WW worked 100% remotely. Now I'm not saying she couldn't have been chatting with him etc. etc. but there wasn't the daily physical interaction. I do believe her feelings toward her AP did finally die fully by the end of 2018 because, looking back on it, there was a dramatic shift in her...which tied to her carrying guilt etc. I just didn't know what it was.

That said, I'm going to stay vigilant and I'll never blindly trust her ever again. In regards to the OMW friendship and blending families...she fully admits that it made the affair easier, but she had been going through some emotional issue when it came to friends (it was actually one of the aspects of her life that helped make her vulnerable to an affair...I can explain deeper, but it's a lot of words for very little important information, lets just say she was in an extreme loneliness). So she actually compartmentalized her friendship with the OMW away from the actual A. It's a huge regret she has and a lot of shame because she truly really liked the OMW. Yes I had plenty of contact with the OM. We spent 2 Halloweens, 2 Christmases, 2 New Years, and quite a few double dates and various outings together. They only had sex 5 times over the 18 months and in fact the families spent more time together than the OM and my WW did together alone.

Hellfire and SacredSoul - Trust me, it's one of the main issues that I haven't been able to budge my "forgiveness" scale on. When I discussed it with my WW, I gave the analogy of, it's the crackhead mom who takes her children with her to go to the crackhouse, brings them inside and then passes out for hours. I then hit my WW with all of the things that HSV2 can cause in a newborn if contracted such as deformities, blindness etc. Needless to say my WW was crying like a baby and she got no sympathy from me. My WW does love our children...There's no denying it, but there's a huge issue with how she compartmentalized her life. (as in she's working with her therapist on the issue because it's dangerous). She put herself in the mindset that whatever it was she was doing...her mind ONLY thought of that. When she was in "affair-mode", the rest of the world could be burning down and she didn't see it. When she was with me alone....she was in "wife-mode". That was one of the things that made it difficult to detect. It was almost to a multiple personality disorder level.

Confused - I’m so sorry,

Another important question as what was their relationship after the affair ended?
Did they still talk?
This seems weird to me.
You may have read a journal so you have more information than most but are you sure you know everything?

I can never be sure that I know everything 100%, but I do feel I know way more than enough. The affair ended with the OM having an extreme break up with her, but disguising it as breaking off the friendship to include a breakup with the OMW. Ultimately, the OM couldn't have my WW and his wife remain friends....so he blew EVERYTHING up. So no, they didn't talk at all.

So one thing that I think gets missed (not by you but I wanted to address this) is the impact that more than 5 years of almost no contact. Some of that was the initial break up and then from 2019 through this year, my WW worked 100% remotely. Now I'm not saying she couldn't have been chatting with him etc. etc. but there wasn't the daily physical interaction. I do believe her feelings toward her AP did finally die fully by the end of 2018 because, looking back on it, there was a dramatic shift in her...which tied to her carrying guilt etc. I just didn't know what it was.

This is good, and probably lessens the chance of a reoccurrence. I say lessens because of the loads of stories here where cheating occurs with an EX (and that’s what he is) where even in cases of abuse, or the EX was a total jerk, an affair starts or restarts. The pull of the EX is so great that even after many years, things start up again. The fact they still have contact and as things are getting back to office returns, what do you have other than her word, to keep them apart?

Not sure where it stands, but you should inform the OBS. I know this is hard and you don’t want to open that can of crap, but two eyes on this is better than one. Can a supervisor be told what happened to help keep them apart?

The person I feel most for is the OBS. You got screwed no doubt, but you are in charge of your destiny at this point, and although my guess is you don’t have all the facts, but you have enough to make an informed decision. She however got screwed over as much as you, but has none of the facts. She lost what she thought was a friendship, even though it was a cruel joke, and might even blame herself. Your wife believes she was a good friend to her, and it sounds like you buy into this, but take a step back and really look at this. It was a sick joke she played on both of you. Again, my bias, but anyone who does this has absolutely no moral compass. It was done to make things easier, but also more exciting.

Did they ever have sex, or make out sessions on any of the times you were all together? Not obviously in front of you, but excusing themselves to go shopping or something like that?

WWTL - This is good, and probably lessens the chance of a reoccurrence. I say lessens because of the loads of stories here where cheating occurs with an EX (and that’s what he is) where even in cases of abuse, or the EX was a total jerk, an affair starts or restarts. The pull of the EX is so great that even after many years, things start up again. The fact they still have contact and as things are getting back to office returns, what do you have other than her word, to keep them apart?

This is a major factor. Her remaining in the job is definitely a compromise on my part. Mostly for financial reasons for my kids lifestyle, college funds, retirement money etc. If she left her job right now, it would take about 30% of our household income with it. We have an agreement that after one year in this position (she recently was promoted into a director position at her company) she'll start looking for a transfer to a different director position at a different site for the same company and be 100% out of that site within 2 years regardless of the situation.

Not sure where it stands, but you should inform the OBS. I know this is hard and you don’t want to open that can of crap, but two eyes on this is better than one. Can a supervisor be told what happened to help keep them apart?

My WW and the OM are in completely different departments, so finding a supervisor with any connection to both would require going to the overall site president....and I'm not going to do that. My WW has had to deal with the OM on one issue so far and she actually passed it off to a different director to handle the issue so she was removed from any further communication. She shows me all of her correspondence so, as much as can be done....she's behaving in an honest and transparent fashion.

The person I feel most for is the OBS. You got screwed no doubt, but you are in charge of your destiny at this point, and although my guess is you don’t have all the facts, but you have enough to make an informed decision. She however got screwed over as much as you, but has none of the facts. She lost what she thought was a friendship, even though it was a cruel joke, and might even blame herself. Your wife believes she was a good friend to her, and it sounds like you buy into this, but take a step back and really look at this. It was a sick joke she played on both of you. Again, my bias, but anyone who does this has absolutely no moral compass. It was done to make things easier, but also more exciting.

Did they ever have sex, or make out sessions on any of the times you were all together? Not obviously in front of you, but excusing themselves to go shopping or something like that?

You're 100% correct about the OBS. I will tell her eventually because this was cruel by both my WW and the OM. Regardless if there was intention or happenstance...it was still full of cruelty. To answer your question....they never snuck off to have sex when I was around....the making out/being touchy feely....I don't know....I'm not even sure how important that detail is at this point....The abhorrent/cruel behavior bucket has already overflowed. I will say there was a moment where something on those lines happened. My WW was at an event with the OBS but needed to pump (she was nursing...post pregnancy) so she went back to the OM's house to pump while the OBS stayed at the event and ended up giving the OM a blowjob and then went back to the event like nothing happened. Yes....this situation and all the others...are a major roadblock in R. I don't think I've reconciled (the general definition) of my WW and my history with her, and who she was in this affair. My WW knows that R is not guaranteed and in many ways, for these reasons.

I rather think that it's important that you really recognize that, though your W may have some serious compartmentalization issues, she was never an authentic friend to the OBS. I don't care how nice she was to her or how bonded they became, the foundation of - and the reason for - the relationship was pernicious and exploitative. I'm sorry, I know I keep hammering on your W, and I know that you're aware that her behavior was shockingly awful, but there's a strain of defense of your W in your posts about this, and it's truly indefensible. She was literally a predator and never a friend.

I am in agreement with sacred soul. I really think it's important to recognize who your wife was and that she was not a friend to OBS. Not in any way shape or form. She got a high off duping this woman. It made her feel powerful to be friends with this woman, knowing that she was" stealing" this woman's husband right under her nose. Many of us are adamant about this because we were in that position ourselves. My husband's AP tried to befriend me but I was not amenable to it because I suspected something. In the aftermath I sent OBS all the messages she sent me where she tried to make pretend we were friends and then the ones where she escalated to being nasty when I would not reciprocate. He was adamant that she was trying to be my friend and it took a long time for him to accept how deeply troubled his wife really was. He was stuck in limbo for a long time until his eyes opened.

CFme and SacredSoul.

You both bring up strong points. Yes there's a strain of defense in me because I know the deeper aspects of my wifes issues back then, so there was SOME "friendship" happening....That said, you're right that there was also a side that was predatory and all of it was reprehensible. That's the ultimate issue at hand. It was her behavior. Intention is a fast road to hell. One thing this conversation has created in me is recognizing I have to dig deeper in regards to the OBS and her job. My WW was/is weak and a coward. It's one of the reasons many people cheat. They're not brave enough or strong enough to deal with issues so they find secret hidden ways to deal with their issues. She wouldn't automatically fix that part of her until she absolutely had to and she's in that stage of her life now....not being fixed but finally STARTING to work on it. I plan to push the issue that SHE needs to come clean with the OBS. If the OBS was truly a friend in her mind, then she should recognize that she needs to make amends.....Step 9 if you want to look at the 12 step program. Her response to this will be very telling to me.

I unfortunately had to hear the truth from OBS, not my WH. It was very traumatic.

A month later my WH broke no contact when he responded to an email from AP. Now there was a response was to tell her to leave him alone but it was still without my knowledge or OBS knowledge. I saw my husband as the pathetic, weak Coward. It gave me a little glimmer of hope when he stepped up and agreed to speak with OBS. They managed to have a mostly civil conversation where my husband expressed his remorse for his hand in destroying another person's marriage. He promised OBS He would never contact AP ever again and if she attempted to he would be let known right away. My WH felt relief after that conversation, like a weight had been lifted off him. If your wife is remorseful she may feel the same.