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Password protected phone? Thumbprint protected picture? Sorry, but that’s a huge no-no and I’m surprised you’re tolerating that.

And I’m with Sacred Soul in that her responses sounded shady as hell to me, too. I realize that this is an infidelity site (so we’re going to look at things through that lens) but it sounds like she’s just gotten more adept at knowing how to respond to accusations and how to cover her tracks.

Question-

When you say "taking pics of herself is her thing", does that mean during her affair or until recently?

The reason I asked is I was almost entirely centered around taking pics of myself during the A. Seven years later, I don’t do it at all. My self esteem is no longer remotely centered on how I look. I do take care of myself, so it’s not becuae I look better or worse.

I don’t want to distract you, because if your intuition is telling you differently, then I would keep investigating. But there are plausible changes one can make in 7 years. I will also say my husband has the thumb print log in but he did readily come find me and let me add mine too. He likes the security, but he wants me to be comfortable. I never really check his phone, but the fact he has made effort to give me access was a good move for him. If she isn’t worried about her phone (as it doesn’t appear she is, she readily handed it to you with seemingly no complaint or hesitation) it might be nothing but a burner is always possible.

She has her phone set up so only her fingerprint will open "secure" picture folders, so even though I know her password, I still can't get into those folders without her opening them. That bugs me.

I can see why that would bug you. It would infuriate me and honestly, it sounds like your WS's A was a lot like mine - shared songs, x-rated photos, and a lot of stuff on the phone. I had my Wh's phone forensically recovered and I think I managed to get the vast majority of what they had shared (I got "lucky" in WH had just gotten a new phone but had not wiped the old one so the overwrite process that often wipes out deleted stuff had not happened - that and he was a chronic back-up guy so even things that were overwritten on the phone were recoverable). So I read some of the endless texts etc. (I stopped after reading about 1/3rd of it - it was so disgusting and honestly I didn't need to know anything else as I could skip from one time period to another and it was all roughly the same barf-tastic stuff). And yeah, it is hard to come back from that for sure but I could not proceed without it.

It sounds to me like you have done a bit of mental rug sweeping and you, as you said, want to believe her now - but you don't. And I get that too, having been there and done that.

You have a list of red flags - not just one thing like I mentioned in my example. The one thing to me, after 2+ years of an A, most of that false-R, gave me pause. If I had your list IDK that I could proceed. I think cutting off the things that she did pre-A is a good way to start.

So, was coming to bed late always her thing (like my WH) or was it more pronounced during the A? If so, is it similar now?

The intimacy - does the distance correspond with the weight loss and the coming to bed late? Her response about being a woman, unless she is referring to loss of sex drive during perimenopause/menopause (as that is very very REAL for a lot of women) seems off to me. In fact when I read your comment about what she said I was a bit baffled as it made no sense to me (again unless that reference is to the "change" which at her age is definitely in the wheelhouse of all of that).

The phone - private no access pictures. Um, no, no and no. Going forward for me with anyone I enter into a serious relationship with (if my WH and I part ways) - private phone stuff is a no go. Was this something she has always done? As noted above, after what happened if you WW doesn't grasp that private stuff like that isn't okay then frankly she's not "getting it" or more likely doesn't want to.

Her response about being a woman, unless she is referring to loss of sex drive during perimenopause/menopause (as that is very very REAL for a lot of women) seems off to me.

I don’t think he is saying loss of drive. He is saying she is sometimes distant during sex. She is saying that sometimes her mind doesn’t focus. I don’t think that’s weird. They have five kids and when I was in the throes of parenthood, I had a constant list going on in my head. Women carry a mental load for the household and sometimes it’s hard to wind down at the end of the day. He said they have good quantity and quality of sex.

That’s not to say it’s not a symptom of an affair, I don’t ever disregard someone’s gut but I don’t think that is weird at all.

Do you track her phone? Like life 36 or something? Sometimes you can still check google locations, but it is a little less accurate and people here have reported mixed results.

It seems to mecthat you want to believe the best, but you arexat odds with your subconscious mind.

I would concur with the other posters who have observed that there was something a little off in her response, at least based on your description. The calm, practiced nature, the responses, all seems somewhat calculated. Not a slam du k, just vague little off.

As soon as I read your update, my mind went straight to burner phone, but I'm biased and generally think the worst. Is there a way to see what devices access your modem? You might see an unfamiliar device, but it's likely that if she is cheating, she's gotten more adept at it given she knows what you are looking for.

Your responses seem peppered with wants and desires to believe. This may hinder your moving forward.

My hackles would be right up at this moment.

It's hard to see anything other than she's back to her bad behaviour and, as others have said, burner phone springs to mind.

Maybe a hidden camera in the room she sits in at night when you go to bed could be an option?

Personally I'd be hiring a PI rather than sit on this merry-go-round of uncertainty.

It seems to me that you want to believe the best, but you are at odds with your subconscious mind.

Yes. If there's anything we've all learned it's that we need to listen to our gut. Your gut is telling you that something's amiss.

For the most part, she doesn't do anything overtly sneaky with her phone, but every now and then I detect something. She has her phone set up so only her fingerprint will open "secure" picture folders, so even though I know her password, I still can't get into those folders without her opening them. That bugs me.

Due to her history, that would be a dealbreaker for me. Were you able to access those folders when you looked through her phone?

She has her phone set up so only her fingerprint will open "secure" picture folders, so even though I know her password, I still can't get into those folders without her opening them. That bugs me.

To me this would be utterly unacceptable in a M even with no history of adultery. For a M with a proven history of it, I cannot believe you’re ok with this, and tolerate it.

I mean this in the kindest possible way, but please consider IC to determine if you suffer from codependency, self-esteem issues, anxiety, or other fears you may have that could be blinding you to the truth. Your wife has proven she’s capable of horribly abusing you. I’m not saying that’s definitely what’s happening again, but…. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice……"

She has her phone set up so only her fingerprint will open "secure" picture folders, so even though I know her password, I still can't get into those folders without her opening them. That bugs me.

I cannot even wrap my head around that one, only people hiding something would have such a thing. I think you have a lot of reason with just this point to have very serious concerns.

I know its possible to have hidden apps on iphones, I suspect the same is true for any phone. There are a number of communication platforms (snapchat, whatsap and many more). I think you need to google about how to see hidden apps and check her phone to see if there are any. I think it might provide a bit of a clearer picture.

[This message edited by hardyfool at 10:38 PM, Thursday, August 8th]

Check the "screen time" and battery usage by apps.
Whatever room she’s normally in while you go to bed earlier, start searching there for the burner phone.

I am sorry that you find yourself in this position once again and I know how painful this can be. I would like to ask if her yearlong previous affair got physical? Did they meet up? If so, how many times and what happened? If not, was this a long distance thing only? I am trying to get a better idea of her propensity to cheat.

OK, to answer a couple questions:

1. "Did she historically take pictures of herself, or was this something she mostly did during her affair?"

Ever since we had our first smart phones, she's been a consistent picture taker of not just herself, but for pretty much any occasion. Going out for a hike? Pictures. Making a cake with one of our daughters? Pictures. At the beach? Pictures. New outfit? Pictures. Taking pictures is her thing.

2. "How did you find the XXX pictures on her phone during the affair?"

By the time it was obvious that something was going on, she knew I suspected it, but by then I was asking to use her phone for things. She knew if she refused, that would be even more reason to believe shenanigans were going on. Once I had the password, I'd look through her phone here and there, generally finding nothing. As it turns out, she and her AP were using a couple apps that left no trace of their activity. One was a game of some sort, and the other was snapchat or whatsapp or something like that.

As I said previously, I eventually found photos in an app that she forgot were there, and they were extremely explicit. I also found songs they were sharing. That's when I confronted her directly on 9/11/16.

3. "Did the A get physical?"

I do not know the answer to that question. She has always insisted it didn't. The AP was a childhood friend (and possible former boyfriend?) who lives 400 miles away, but due to his job, he traveled the country. During a trip to see her relatives (alone and had none of our children with her), she went to see him as part of the trip. Afterward, I asked her exactly what happened and she said she went to see him at his workplace and they saw each other in the parking lot and it was only for a short conversation and then she left. She said absolutely nothing happened other than a conversation. In the weeks and months after D-day, I asked multiple times about things going physical and she repeatedly denied it. She said she realized if she did that, there'd be no chance to us ever surviving so she didn't "go there."

Do I believe her about that? That's a tough one, because she clearly already had shown a propensity to lie and hide the truth (and gaslight, obviously), so the trust was already gone. After I started suspecting things, she repeatedly said nothing was going on, so she was lying on the regular to me for up to a year. Let me put it this way, it wouldn't surprise me if she did get physical with the AP, but she steadfastly has denied it and I've never found proof of it (but admittedly that would be almost impossible).
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Now, here's a disclaimer that I hope isn't missed by anyone reading this: during the A, her demeanor changed for the worse. She'd snap at me and she'd complain. For years now and even currently, she exhibits none of that. She seems happy. That's what's making me wonder if I'm over analyzing things right now. She really seems happy. I don't know what to think.

So has she started to be more attentive and engaged and also be more willing to retire with you at the end of the day?

3. "Did the A get physical?"

I do not know the answer to that question.

One of the bedrock truths of successful R is the betrayed understanding the full, ugly, unvarnished truth. To start, your W needs to understand that without that, you, nor your relationship can ever heal. Since your W has proven to be untrustworthy in the past, she’s lost the right to any assumption of innocence or taking her word at face value.

Please seriously consider having your W write down a COMPREHENSIVE timeline of EVERYTHING that happened. Who initiated what. Dates. Times. Locations. EVERYTHING. The mast majority of men need to understand full details of all sexual activity. Without that, there remains a bond of secret intimacy with your W and OM that will forever be an impediment in your relationship being all that it could be. Her divulging everything pops that intimacy bubble she still has with OM.

After she WRITES the full timeline, have her sit for a polygraph where she will need to confirm the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the timeline. Also have her asked if, other than OM, she’s been in any way inappropriate (the examiner will define this) with any other men since you’ve been "exclusive".

If she refuses, you need to take that as a size-of-China red flag as to her integrity, honesty, and faithfulness since she supposedly stopped the betrayal. Tell her that you desperately want to believer her, which you do, but you’re struggling due to her previously dishonesty, and that a poly will set your mind at ease and allow you two to move forward in the most healthy way possible.

And no, it’s not at all too late to do this.

Because your gut is pinging at you, I think a little sleuthing is in order. I like the idea of a hidden camera in a few areas of the house, as well as the garage or wherever she parks her car. If she's using a burner phone after you go to bed, or behaving in weird ways, the cameras should catch it.

I also agree that a polygraph would be very helpful in easing your mind as to whether or not there was a PA, and whether or not she's remained faithful. It'll be awkward to ask for one out of the blue right now, so I'd probably start with the checking the app usage, like OhItsYou mentioned, and watching the cameras.

I asked her exactly what happened and she said she went to see him at his workplace and they saw each other in the parking lot and it was only for a short conversation and then she left. She said absolutely nothing happened other than a conversation. In the weeks and months after D-day, I asked multiple times about things going physical and she repeatedly denied it. She said she realized if she did that, there'd be no chance to us ever surviving so she didn't "go there."

Or she knew that telling you would be a dealbreaker, so she didn't go there. She sent this man explicit pics, right? Hmm. It's possible that he participated in the EA but was too scared to take it to PA, but it's just as likely that it did get physical.

"And no, it’s not at all too late to do this."

It's been eight years now. Honestly, I am not concerned with what she did eight years ago. We already lived that and went through that hell. I have moved on and sincerely hope she has as well.

It doesn't seem right to me to ask for those details all over again eight years later.

It's what's happening NOW that is my concern, not from 2015-2016.

"It's possible that he participated in the EA but was too scared to take it to PA, but it's just as likely that it did get physical."

In my original thread eight years ago, I mentioned that the married AP was seeing/banging women all over the country. My wife was just one of many who were caught up with this guy. I found this out by contacting the AP's wife. There was even a paternity issue with a woman in Alabama.

This guy was clearly doing his best to get inside my wife's pants.

It's what's happening NOW that is my concern, not from 2015-2016.

I can understand that. And you can proceed how you wish, but I think what the other poster is really saying is what happened 8 years ago, not really getting the closure on it, is going to contribute to the situation at hand in numerous ways, effecting both of your mindsets. If she got away with it, she may feel more comfortable this time, or wiser to how she tipped you off. You are also going to be more suspicious of things than ever before.

But for now, I would be in investigative mode. I definitely would pop in on her at night. I would probably add her to life 360 or some other thing that lets you see her whereabouts. And I would check her internet history on her phone and any pc she has access to and look at what apps she has installed. Google also tracks things if she has an account that even if she deleted her history you could still see what has happened in the Google realm.

I get what you are saying about she was different in her affair, more moody, but she may not be experiencing the same kind of cognitive dissonance she was then. I think that’s what causes the behavior you describe, I was like that too. There was no mistaking that there was something wrong.

I do think some of the signs can be explained away- I mean, her not taking pics of herself as much- if you look through the history of her photos you may see she tamed down on that a lot over time. I used to take a lot of pics too and my husband still probably would tell you I do it a lot, but that would be his perception, but I haven’t really done that in a year or two.

I think your intuition is telling you something is up, and usually when that happens there probably is. But it can also be that lingering distrust from the no full disclosure in the last situation. Most of what you describe is not damning on its own so it’s very hard to tell.

I am sorry Friend but I am certain your WW (notice I didn't write 'fWW'--your wife is STILL Wayward) got physical with POSOM. Your WW visited POSOM who was a shameless womanizer at the time. Do you really believe they just talked?

Respectfully, it appears that you and your WW have been rugsweeping. That there are still so many things you do not know and that you are uncertain whether WW and POSOM had sex (they did indeed but your WW is the one who needed to tell you this) is pretty much a giveaway.

It is also extremely problematic that your WW is distracted during sex. Her 'women have a lot on their mind' is a cop-out.

What I am getting at is that I am sorry but I think your marriage is in serious trouble. I am trying to be as kind as possible but you need to be taking much stronger action than you are.

And...do NOT try to put your WW's affair *just* on POSOM. SHE was the one who proclaimed her vows to protect you and your marriage from outside suitors.

ETA: And I didn't even see the part about a password protected phone before. I agree with gr8ful, BluerThanBlue, and SacredSoul here.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:31 AM, Saturday, August 10th]

"And...do NOT try to put your WW's affair *just* on POSOM. SHE was the one who proclaimed her vows to protect you and your marriage from outside suitors."

I don't know how to quote posts, so I have to keep copy/pasting and putting it in quotation marks.

As far as this quote goes, I don't put the affair on the POSOM at all. I'm not married to him. He has no allegiance or commitment to me. This is on my wife. She chose to do all those things in violation of her vow to me. AP has a wife and kids of his own that he betrayed. He didn't betray me, my wife did.

After sitting down with my wife a week or two ago, I felt a little better about the situation and she has come to bed with me a couple times, but she is a night owl while I'm an "early to bed, early to rise" guy. If she does come to bed with me, it's solely because she's trying to accommodate me and my wants and desires.

What I think I'm going to do right now is tell her the thumbprint protected phone/picture folders are not acceptable and tell her it would make me more at ease if my print was added. She's probably not going to like it, but that's how it's going to be.

I'll also continue keeping my eyes and ears peeled for other signs and hopefully there will be diminishing ones until they all disappear eventually.