SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is more of a disappointed grumble then anything else.

Last night we were discussing the A, and I can't recall exactly how it came up, but my WH mentioned the fact that he believes he never would have had an A with a married woman (AP was single, no kids). He said he believes he would have thought of "the fall out" first, their kids etc. I of course, scoffed.

Now firstly, this hurts because of the absolute obvious. So, he was willing to destroy his own wife and kids, who he never gave a second thought to, but proclaims he would have given strangers a level of consideration he was not able to give his own family. Huh.

Secondly, I feel after 18 months of R, this man STILL has his head up his own ass. He is still unable to truly look at himself and be honest about who he is and what he is capable of - how can a WS really change if they still lie to themselves?

We had a discussion about it and he then agreed that ok, he would have been capable of having an affair with a married woman. Yet, what if I'd said nothing? Surely it shouldn't take me getting him to see the obvious, while he lives in complete denial?

Just disappointed that this is where he's at in 18 months 😔

The correct response to that drivel is exactly what you thought and shared with us:

So, he was willing to destroy his own wife and kids, who he never gave a second thought to, but proclaims he would have given strangers a level of consideration he was not able to give his own family.

You should ask him directly why he placed so much value on family-values for others, while not giving his own family the same worth. Ask him if he can really be so selective on his ethics and if there are any other deviations out of the norm in his ethos.

Then I read your older posts and he says there was a "spark" with this AP…
Yet he also says he wouldn’t have cheated if she was married…
So… he had a choice… Had he felt that spark and then discovered she was married he has stated he wouldn’t have cheated. Ergo: he fed the spark – he flamed the fire. His affair was his choice and his decision and he could – by his own admission – not crossed that line had she been married.

I think you need to have these hard conversations with the WS. You need to remove all fantasy, romance and all that and leave them with a "I did this, I decided to do this and I am dealing with the consequences of MY actions".

As a WS, I unfortunately agree that he still has some work to do in facing up to the full scope of his wayward mindset.

From time to time, someone will post here that "all WWs are also OWs." I wasn't; the OM was single. At first, I thought that mattered. Part of my journey was recognizing the logic you've set out: if I was willing to betray my own partner, then I was extremely unlikely to be deterred by any sense of decency towards an OBS. I was saved from that particular depravity by circumstance rather than anything admirable in my own character.

"At least I" was a popular phrase in my mind during my early months lurking here. At least I confessed, at least I wasn't married, at least I didn't cheat again, etc etc etc. It was much more useful to focus on the things I had in common with other WS than on the supposedly mitigating factors that I believed made me exceptional.

Bigger, well this is the thing - I DO point out the irregularities in his thinking, and he then mostly reaches a point where he sees what I mean. But to me, this was pretty bloody basic! How on earth could he still even contemplate the very idea that he would not have had an affair with a married woman?! I mean, I know after we had a discussion and I pointed out his flawed thinking, he retracted this; but still in my eyes, it's completely obvious. It's beginners level. How on earth did he not conclude the obvious on his own?!

Another thing. So during his affair, he did things that could have literally landed him in prison. Best case scenario, immediate dismissal. We could have lost our home, his face could have been splashed over the media. I am still so shocked by his actions, words cannot explain. This man adores his career, and has always taken such a dim view of other colleagues behaving in the exact same way he did, during his A.

Yet last night when I said well if AP would have been someone you had come into contact via your job (she was just the skanky receptionist next door, nothing to do with his job), I know you'd have still got involved with her (I can't explain all on SI, so apologies if this does not make much sense). He claims absolutely not, he's seen other colleagues do that, and nope not him. But guess what the repercussions could be? Job loss, prison, media involvement, loss of our home. Yet he risked all of those exact same consequences during the A!?

Cognitive dissonance at its finest. Its like pulling teeth.

BSR - I couldn't agree more. I feel he has so much to do in facing up to his own mindset. I think without knowing it, he does follow the "At least I..." train of thoughts.

I know it must be terrifying for a WS to really, really look at themselves. To see the ugliness within. But how can one really fix whats broken if they just smooth over the cracks?!

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 2:39 PM, Thursday, December 28th]

Everything Bigger just said.

Whiskyblues, I’ve actually heard the opposite, that he’d likely not of had an affair with a single woman as she would have expected more than he was willing to give. The fact that she was married made it seem safer somehow as she too would want to keep the secret from destroying her life too. 🙄in actuality, I don’t think the cheater, once actually healed from his mental demons can know what their f’ed up brain would have done at the time. For me, if a cheater has actually done the necessary work the only real answer would be "I have no idea what I’d have done as I was thinking and behaving as a complete selfish ass and I don’t think like that anymore".

For me, if a cheater has actually done the necessary work the only real answer would be "I have no idea what I’d have done as I was thinking and behaving as a complete selfish ass and I don’t think like that anymore".

OTOSOH, see even this would be better ^^^

If he was more of the opinion that, "well actually I don't know what I'd have done and yeah its possible - I mean look at what I did do right?". But a resounding "nope, I wouldn't have done that", just seems so incredibly.....well arrogant, I guess. Its the inability to accept that fact that he was willing to bend his logic and morals doing xyz, why wouldn't he have done it with...I dunno...abc??

His behaviour knew no bounds. He left our girls and I for a person he'd known for a few weeks. He did not behave within the confines of even a sane person. I read very few stories on SI where they were literally left, along with their young children for someone their spouse had known for a few weeks. Yet he could apparently confidently assert that he would not have had an A with a married woman. Or got involved with someone he met through work. Mmhmm.

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 3:29 PM, Thursday, December 28th]

That's why I believe IC is essential for a WS in R.

Ending an affair is not the same as becoming a changed/safe partner.

HardKnocks, he has had IC..and hypnotherapy. Just clearly not enough, in my opinion.

Money is a factor unfortunately. Plus when he had IC he was still lying, no hardly effective 😞

Have you considered the possibility that your husband was telling the truth?

Perhaps he doesn’t like the idea of strangers thinking badly of him; he wants to project to the world that he is a good guy. He also didn’t want to have to deal with the potential danger that comes from having an angry husband on his ass. A single mistress without a husband and children is also more available and has less baggage. He could easily discard her once her existence became inconvenient.

Your pain and your children’s pain, on the other hand, were just a small price to pay to have his fun. He doesn’t think your suffering reflects badly on him as a person because it hasn’t cost him anything.

So, you have to point out his ridiculous thoughts,and then he eventually says he gets what you're saying.

At this point,you have to wonder if he's just complying, or doing the work.

Hellfire - Yep. Nailed it. Is he complying with my (rational) thoughts or does he actually get it?

It seems he doesn't understand the difference, nor the implications of not understanding the difference.

BSR - I couldn't agree more. I feel he has so much to do in facing up to his own mindset. I think without knowing it, he does follow the "At least I..." train of thoughts.

My craziest self-talk of all was "at least I told the truth" while still actively lying. And like your WH, I lied about shit that was arguably less bad than what I had already admitted. I was an expert at simultaneous thought tracks: "This is so inconsequential that there's really no need to mention it," and also, "I'll never ever tell (the same piece of information), because if I did, he'd leave."

Your WH did some things I was never inclined to do, but still, I see a lot of myself in how you describe him.

BSR - what you describe about your thought processes sound scarily accurate! I just wish he could see his own actions 😔

BSR - what you describe about your thought processes sound scarily accurate! I just wish he could see his own actions

I couldn't until I had let go of the outcome. Control is so, so important to the wayward mindset - control of ourselves, our surroundings, and unfortunately of other people. Even when we believe we're acting in someone else's best interests, the underlying premise is that we have the right to shape another person's experience instead of releasing the reins.

The strange thing is that all those years ago, on D-Day 1, I had in fact let go of the outcome. I knew that there was a very strong chance that my BF would dump me immediately when I confessed. I already had my plan in place for how I would get home (we lived in different cities, and I waited until we were face to face before telling him I slept with OM). I was prepared for anger; I wasn't prepared for devastation. I truly thought he was already one foot out the door before I cheated and that it wouldn't hit him too hard. When I saw the impact, and particularly when I saw that there was a chance of reconciliation, I panicked and backtracked. I stayed in that space for a long, long time, desperately rewriting the narrative into something more manageable for both of us. Before I could sell it to him, I first had to sell it to myself.

Your WH has everything backwards, IMO. He thinks that loss of self-control was what caused his problems, a bout of momentary insanity that took his hands off the wheel. He feels safer believing that "the real him" was there under the surface, fighting to limit the damage, and now that person is back on top and ready to fix it all. Instead, he needs to face that he was in complete charge all along. He took his life, yours, and your daughters and drove them all straight off a cliff. His work isn't boldly wrestling some foreign influence into submission and limiting your exposure to it. It's turning around and acknowledging that this is him, he did this, this is who he is, and that he is in no position to be running the show anymore. There's nothing more terrifying to a wayward, and nothing more necessary.

If he's not willing to participte in IC (AKA not lie), and you haven't seen any significant changes; behaviorally or cognitively, then there's not much for you to work with. IMO.

BSR - I showed my WH your last response and I think you've struck a bit of a chord with him. Your points about control and his desperate need to steer the situation, the person (I.e. me) towards his desired outcome.

He's dealt so well with addressing his need to people please and be liked by everyone. He's addressed, I think, what led to the A in the first place. He's never once tried to blame me and I honestly don't think there's anything he wouldn't do to reconcile our marriage.

But I still think he's missing the point - "this is him, he did this, this is who he is". He believes he acknowledges this and from an outsiders view it would very much look like he does. But I don't think he's quite there yet. I think its too painful for him, and I get why.

How did you know where you were there???

I've been thinking about this a lot over the past few days, trying to come up with an answer beyond letting go of the outcome, but that's really what it was for me. I couldn't completely come clean until I had made my peace with losing control of what would happen next. There was a surreality to that which is hard to describe, like stepping off a cliff and surrendering to the inevitable impact. I realize that's a suicidal metaphor, but honestly, it felt suicidal to tell my BH terrible things that he had no other way of knowing. Once I had done that and survived it, I found to my shock that I had something new to hang on to. I could look in the mirror and see a person who had made terrible choices, but also a person who had found the courage to surrender everything in order to make amends. I didn't have to cling to a fictitious version of myself to avoid self-hatred. That doesn't mean I wasn't angry at myself -- I absolutely was -- but there was room for grace and forgiveness, too. There was no room for that when all of my focus was on damage control.

I’ll ask again: why assume he’s lying?

Although waywards generally are full of shit, in this case, he had nothing to gain by telling you that he wouldn’t have slept with another married woman; he knows that either way, it’s still cheating.

As I said before, I think he chose a single woman because she was at his beck and call, and he didn’t have to fear an angry man coming after him if the affair blew up. I think he’s being honest when he said he didn’t want another family’s blood on his hands because he doesn’t want other people thinking poorly of him.

And yes, he does care more about other people’s impressions than he does about you and your kids. To date, hurting his family hasn’t cost him anything.

BluerThanBlue - well I assumed he was lying to himself because I know (to a degree), how his brain works. We've talked for thousands and thousands of hours over the last 18 months, and so I feel I understand him on a greater level then I ever did before the A.

We ended up discussing this for days and as I suspected, he agrees, he was indeed kidding himself. Not just about the married woman comment, but the work situation, too. He reverted back to his previous thought processes; Self preservation. Avoidance. Cognitive dissonance.

I am disappointed at the regression, but I accept that working on yourself is never a linear process. He is a work in progress.

He didn't go out looking for a single woman to have an affair with, she started working on reception in the building next door. A chance encounter and there was a spark. He later got told from a colleague that she said she thought he was "hot". And that was that. He says now he's actually bothered to really look at himself that yes, even if she were married and she gave some bullshit story about being in an unhappy marriage, he would have played the Knight in shining armour. This rings true.

I wouldn't agree that hurting his family hasn't cost him anything, though. The repercussions of his actions has cost him dearly. No, it hasn't cost him a divorce and seeing his children every other weekend (although it should have), but thats on me, as I decided to try and R.

BSR - I think he's a bit stuck on the true acceptance of who he truly is and what he's done. I think he tends to cling onto little beacons of light, otherwise the shame becomes too much.

It must be tremendously painful. I know I wouldn't be able to do it - if I was him I would never had to balls to try and R, I'd have crawled under a rock and died of shame. To face who you really are (and do it properly, not rugsweep or blame shift), takes a lot of courage.

Like I say, I think he's a work in progress.