SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Something I struggle with for sure. The areas I struggle with this the most is when the pain is caused by me. If there’s a pain from any other area of H’s life, I have no problem being right there with him. If it’s caused by me, it’s harder to sit with it since my hurting for him is warring with my shame from having caused it. I’ve worked on this and can sit with him in his pain in most of the A related things. However…

When his pain is over something that both of us screwed up on, then my rage comes and it is so hard just to battle that. Example: rings. H never wore his before my A. Ever. I would beg him, ask him to, open myself up on how I felt like our marriage to him was just like that dusty ring he left last month on the workout bench. Uncared for, unwanted and inconvenient and uncomfortable for him to be in. This morning he expressed to me that he is hurting about our rings because I still wore mine during my A. The ring I wear now was given to me by him not as a sign of him wanting me to be his wife still, but as a sign of brotherly care. I liked the ring and wanted it to wear in place of a wedding band as a "leave me alone" ring so I wouldn’t get harassed as much by men. It was from care and concern, that of a brother. Which is good.

It comes down to this: I was hurting that my rings meant so much to him, yet he couldn’t be bothered to wear his as a sign of his own faithfulness even back when I was faithful. I felt alone in holding the marriage as valuable then as I was the only one bothering to wear our rings. In my mind a man who doesn’t regularly wear his wedding band is open to fucking around on his wife. That’s not always the case, but that is how I see it. And H knew it as I had told him how deeply unhappy and insecure I was when he refused to wear his. He claimed it was too wide and uncomfortable. We could have bought another band.

So this morning, he was opening up to me and being vulnerable about his pain and I was feeling rage from the years of loneliness and abandonment I felt because he couldn’t be bothered to wear HIS ring. I screwed up and made it about me. I have apologized and expressed to him that I want to do better and be down there with him in his pain.

Anyone else struggle with this? Not really looking for advice, but to know I’m not alone in struggling.

Just some thoughts on your post.

Wedding rings seems to be misunderstood.

When you place the ring on his finger, you say something like "with this ring, I Thee wed", or "I place this ring on your finger as a symbol of my vows to you".

The ring you wear is a symbol of HIS vows to YOU. You carry his vows with you, and in what is known as a "double ring ceremony", the woman places a ring on the man’s finger and does the same thing by placing a ring on his finger. Men didn’t always wear rings, this being somewhat new historically speaking.

Men in general seem different about their rings, just from observation. My husband never wore his ring much either, but this was because he plays guitar and his original ring was larger and it made noise on the neck that could be heard on the mic and on recordings. He switched to a silicone band that he wears on his right hand instead. He said the thinner band feels much better, too.

Over the 48 years, my original ring caused an allergy, so I stopped wearing it. Replaced it with another that I grew out of…and now have another because the second one was no longer fitting my heart. I am an artist and do a very messy type of art, so it spends a lot of time in the jewelry box, but I wear it and am glad to have it. I don’t want to destroy it with resins in the studio.

That all aside, both of you have broken your commitments. The rings probably feel different. I know mine felt wrong and I took it off. It no longer meant what it was supposed to mean - his commitment to me.

About being able to sit with his pain:

You talked about how you got angry and then made it about your pain. I’m wondering how much of this is to deflect from your having to just sit with your own guilt, on your own, and accept what you did. To fully own it, without blaming anyone but yourself.

"I chose to have an affair. I chose to cheat. I made this decision, this movement, this action ……… " and walk yourself through the entire story of each choice, accepting blame. No use of excuses or reasons. Just walking yourself through the event with your choices. Truly accepting that you inhabited your body, and you made the choices all along the way, from first meeting the AP through last contact. It helps to see your autonomy, and to understand the points where you truly made those decisions - and the points where you lied to yourself and others.

It helps with that ability to empathize. You will be able to see what you did very clearly, and you will stop shifting blame.

I also have a book suggestion for the two of you. It is not about affairs at all. It is about how we deceive ourselves, how we blameshift, and how we go about seeing ourselves as more entitled than others. It’s written by The Arbinger Institute, and they work with people, corporations, and nations around the globe. They have two books on this that they wrote for the average person like me and you. One is workplace focused (called Leadership and Self-deception) but the one that focuses on the family and marriages is called The Anatomy of Peace.

The book is easy to read, and it changed my life. My husband read it, and the way he thinks about our relationship totally changed.

Worth the time.

[This message edited by 5Decades at 3:12 PM, Wednesday, February 7th]

Thanks 5Decades for the response.

I've thought a bit about what you said about wedding rings being a sign of the vow the giver undertook instead of the vow of the receiver. It makes more sense than how I was framing it before. I think, reviewing my reaction to my H's not wearing the ring I gave him, that was more at play than feeling like his vow to me wasn't secure. Like my vow to him, my contribution of myself to the M, was of little meaning to him. Like the M was all about HIM and HIS wants, HIS contributions, HIS desires and not about what was going to make ME happy.

Like he claimed me for himself, but wouldn't allow me to claim him in return. Which makes for much insecurity. Like, he can claim me and reserve me for himself, but continue going on browsing in the marketplace.

What an asshole. Makes me mad thinking about it.

I doubt that's how he sees it- to him, he's explained it several times, the ring was physically and emotionally uncomfortable. Too wide to be comfortable on his finger. When we were fighting, too uncomfortable to look at as it would just remind him of his unhappiness in our M.

You talked about how you got angry and then made it about your pain. I’m wondering how much of this is to deflect from your having to just sit with your own guilt, on your own, and accept what you did. To fully own it, without blaming anyone but yourself.

Early on, it was definitely this, FOR SURE. Now a days, since I've been doing a lot of reprocessing and EMDR, it's been shaking loose a lot of buried anger in many areas. I think it's more from a point of, "You don't get to be hurt about this without acknowledging your own contribution to my pain." Like, an anger about not being seen all those long years before my A when I was very clearly unhappy, upset and very clearly expressed it to him in as many ways as I knew how. Part of this is me trying to learn how to assert myself- to understand where the anger is from and when/how best to express and resolve it.

In this incident, I definitely wish I handled it differently. Had a conversation about this with H this morning about it. We patched it up the day it happened- I apologized and acknowledged that I don't want to be making his pain about my pain going forward and that I was unhappy with my own behavior. This morning we discussed what I've been working on internally to that effect. I made it clear to him that I wasn't sharing to get his sympathy or change his mind on whether or not it was right for me to turn the anger around on him at that time. It really wasn't. I wanted him to know that I was doing this hard work because our M and our family and what we've built together is important enough to be worth it to me. That working hard on this matters because he matters and I want to show up and be a better wife for him- that he deserves that. And really, I deserve it too. The better a W I am to him, the more satisfaction I can take in myself and the more at peace I can be in myself, knowing that I'm working hard and showing up to the best of my abilities.

I was thinking about it, and, I knew I could choose to turn it around and throw the pain back on him or sit with him. I told him that I didn't want to choose that going forward. To that point, I'm understanding better where the pain came from and working on putting a pin on that and believing and knowing I can come back to it at another time and have it addressed too. That I'm working on trusting him to address it later when I can have a turn to be listened to. That I wanted more opportunities to listen to him, for him to be able to open up to me in the future. I know now that I need to be assertive and have faith in myself that I can be assertive at the appropriate time. That I have the confidence in myself to not stuff my anger, but rather pause it, reflect and share it constructively at the right moment. When H is in pain over what I've done to him, that's clearly not the right time and I truly want to correct that going forward.

Thanks for the book recommendations. I'm going to look for audiobooks of them- the commute is about 45min each way for me, so I've found that the best way to get my literature in .

Thanks again for the response, it's good to be able to bounce this stuff off the members of this board.

Hi MiGander,
I used to live in Battle creek. Beautiful state.
I read your story and I thought I would give my perspective regarding the ring. I divorced my wife after DDay, so I know its a little different and I dont know what your husband does for a living. I say that because some jobs would require no rings do to the risk of injury. Anyway. I feel like I am very much like you. I prided myself on wearing my ring. I was proud of my marriage. being married was am important thing to me. My ex wife (we are now dating each other again so I will use FWS from here out) never wore here ring very often. Her fingers would swell and she ended up with a rubbery ring thing that she wore before DDay.

I never questioned her about her ring. I didnt care whether she wore it or not. I was confident in "Us". I trusted her to not go against her vows. I was unfortunately betrayed before I ever gave her a ring and for some time after. I would say my childhood was not the most stable. My parents both cheated on each other and divorced, remarried each other, divorced again and then remarried others. I think this made my feelings toward ME wearing a ring important to me. I was proud to have avoided all that. Unfortunately, my FWS didnt tell me of her unfaithfulness until many years later. I took my ring off after deciding to divorce and havent worn one since. I still have the indent on my finger where it sat but at least its no longer pale since its gotten some sun.
My FWS had a different family experience. Her Mom and Dad divorced when she was an infant and her Stepfather adopted her when she was 4. She doesnt remember any experiences with her BIO dad but she had a very stable family.
I think maybe, your husband, who it seems came from a solid home, I think you said they can be a little enabling, or babying of your husband. I could be wrong, sorry if I am.
You had a more challenging upbringing. This can make us appreciate some things more. Unfortunately you betrayed yourself by having an affair, your husband betrayed himself differently with his EA.
After my FWS and I decided to try again, she wanted to know if she could wear her ring. I told her I didnt care. Its just jewelry to me now. It has no meaning outside of what you assign to it.
I dont think you said, but does your husband now wear his ring or is he still expecting you to wear yours while he putzes around without his?
I think there is alot to work on and work with here. I think, like you said, you are struggling not just with the pain you feel but also the pain you caused. You, who felt the rings were significant, was also the same to tarnish the meaning of them.
I would like to ask you what your ring meant to you while you were having your affair. Did you think about it? its meaning or value to you?
I dont fault you for being upset regarding your husbands behavior for not wearing a ring earlier, but I can also see that he would be upset about you wearing your ring. I know it would trigger me. The ring she currently wears is not one she wore during her affair.
Like all things in a marriage, it should be discussed. I think a successful marriage should have shared values, if you cant share that value, then at least appreciation for that persons view. I will never value my FWS obsession with the bachelor, but I appreciate the fact that she enjoys it and it makes her happy.
Would it have meant something to you to have him wear a ring that he didnt want to, just to appease you? Im asking honestly. in my opinion it means alot to me if someone does something, not because they want to, but because they know it will make me happy. I wouldnt want them to do something that would make them uncomfortable though.
Please keep us updated on how this situation progresses

Notarunnerup, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I would like to ask you what your ring meant to you while you were having your affair. Did you think about it? its meaning or value to you?

By the time I began my A, my ring meant nothing to me, just a reminder of my H's hypocrisy. He had been engaging in an EA with a close friend of mine and comparing me negatively to her just about daily. Negatively, of course. Would have been uncomfortable with comparing me to her favorably (like, are you trying to decide between us?), but no, he was negative against me in every aspect when compared to HER. So... between him not valuing his ring from me and him clearly not valuing me for myself, I saw the ring as a daily reminder of my H's utter bullshit in pretending to be this great, happily married H, with his great, unmarred and strong faith.

My ring became a hated thing to me, only useful in keeping down some unwanted attention from other men.

So, I did and have thought a lot about what the ring meant to me- when we first married, before my A and now after the A.

Now, I don't know if I want a wedding ring unless H gave it to me intentionally wanting to renew our M to ME, AS I AM, and NOT how he desires me to be.

For me to give him a new wedding ring, it's hard, he rejected mine before- what's to say he won't pull the same shenanigans again and discard my love for him because our relationship is uncomfortable.

Would it have meant something to you to have him wear a ring that he didnt want to, just to appease you?

It does mean a lot to me for others to go out of their way for me. It happens rarely, I've been raised to value self sufficiency so highly, that asking for help or for things from other people is VERY difficult and takes a LOT of trust from me. So, me asking my H to wear a ring I gave him as a sign of my love and his acceptance of that love... it's very important. In fact, I believe it's something I need to consider myself fully reconciled in our M.

The ring I wear now is a pretty silver ring with some small diamonds set in it. It's clearly not a wedding band, nor an engagement ring, but a nice piece of "costume" kind of jewelry. It passes at first glance for a set, but isn't, so it serves the purpose of deterrence. And H gave it to me as a present because I wanted it. Regardless of whether he really truly desires the M or not, he does love me enough to want me to feel secure in interactions with strangers. Married women treat other unmarried/divorced women differently in our social circles- it's a subtle circling of the wagons that you can observe. The ring protects me from that as well.

It's really interesting hearing from everyone what the rings mean/meant to them in their M. I wish you and fWS healing.

If your ring meant nothing to you before you started your affair, what made you continue to wear it? Appearances, obligation? Duty? Habit? Did you feel like you were "getting back" at your husband with your affair?
I could see you using your anger to fuel a sort of revenge for his behavior. I dont think you meant to ever tell your husband so would it really be revenge if he never knew about it?
I can see where resentment might lead to certain destructive behaviors. I used to be a self punishing person. Similar to cutting myself but less scarring.
I hope things work out with my FWS but dating is the closest I will ever get to her or anyone again.
I hope your marriage is rebuildable.

On a different note, I believe you said that you are more responsible with money than your husband. Have you ever tried creating two separate accounts for fun trips or fun days? Like 5% of your paycheck per pay period to use as a reward at a later date?
I used to put $100 away every pay period to pay for a vacation once a year. Now that money gets split between my 2 kids. It helped to 1. Make you feel like you were working toward a goal 2. You could choose to blow it all or save to use toward something bigger and 3. It becomes almost a game to see who can out save the other partner. There is no loser since the money is that persons to blow on themselves, their spouse or the family. It can even become a safety net if emergencies arise.

I think your situation is a little different. I think the reason your rage comes up is because your husband never has taken any accountability. Over his own affairs, his financial infidelity, etc.

The rage that exists in you comes from years of abuse in my eyes. I do not mean that you should have had an affair or that didn’t cause him pain. The more I read from you the more I think you are married to a narcissist. And because of that there is a part of you that can never really feel complete remorse over your affair. And I don’t think that is a flaw. I think to find a path towards healthy R it takes two people. I think you regret your affair and don’t want for him to be in pain. But I also think it’s hard to completely bow down when he has had an emotional affair going for most of your reconciliation. He wants you to look at his pain but not his behavior. Sure, there are times he looks like he is taking accountability, but after reading what you write for years I think it’s part of manipulating you.

You feel this about the rings "like he claimed me for his own but wouldn’t allow me to do the same in return" I am not sure your reaction would be so emotional if it weren’t for the fact he has cheated and lied and controlled things most of your marriage. He did claim you for his own while he felt free to do what he wanted financially and with emotional (and likely physical) affairs with other women.

My husband didn’t wear his ring for our whole marriage either. And I realize that you and I have different religious backgrounds and different values. But had your husband been honest and faithful I am not sure you would see this the way you do.

I am sorry, I have watched you twist yourself into a pretzel trying to make this work but your husband is going to hold this affair over your head as leverage for the rest of your life. He is going to always make it about him while never making any progress as to investigate himself and take accountability over his own transgressions. Anyone would feel enraged.

This is not the same situation that most of us are in- I can’t advise you to try and alleviate rage that I feel you are justified to have. This is not you being unable to heal ws tendencies, this is you as a bs not being able to heal from his. I don’t think he is ever going to give you the environment you need for that. I think he is such a good twister that he is great at using your shame against you. The fact I know you have been in therapy and no one seems to be pointing any of this out to you is alarming.

Your affair was at least five years ago, and yet what is happening is still the same as when you arrived her. And I don’t think that is because of you. You can’t forgive him because he presents all these smoke and mirrors, and I think it makes you feel like you are crazy. So when you are supposed to take accountability your anger swells up and then you feel the shame for not being able to react like a fws should. I want you to know what you are asking of yourself is impossible. His abuse is keeping you locked in a space.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:03 PM, Thursday, February 8th]

Notarunnerup:

If your ring meant nothing to you before you started your affair, what made you continue to wear it? Appearances, obligation? Duty? Habit? Did you feel like you were "getting back" at your husband with your affair?

Appearances, it was a really pretty ring set too... obligation and duty were all there in wearing them through the years. Also, as a woman (and I am/was pretty attractive), we tend to get more unwanted male attention when we're not wearing a ring than when we are. Or at least, I've noticed that the "attention" tends to be more respectful and less flirty when I do wear a ring. Kinda like how Muslim women wear hijab, for the sake of modesty and hopefully protection from other males. Not a Muslim myself, just putting myself in their shoes and understanding the advantages wearing hijab would have.

Did I feel like I was getting back at my H with my A? I didn't consciously think that at the time. I was drowning in a sense of utter unworthiness, suffering from lack of love, affection and approval, feeling invisible to him and completely unwanted. I was so low that really, the first person who took notice, acted kind and seemed to care was enough to get me interested. At that point, I had told myself I would hang on simply for the sake of the kids- until they were in college- and divorce after that. The A was a life raft to get me through until then. It was an exit affair. Revenge wasn't the objective- how can you get revenge on someone by denying them something they clearly have no interest in? I felt I had so little value to H beyond the $$ I earned and the appearance of "religious married man" and the convenience of housekeeping and childrearing and occasional sexual outlet... you can't miss what you don't value (ie: my heart and affection)? And if I was able to maintain the other levels of function normally expected by him, why would he care if I had an A? There's no revenge to be had.

In terms of finances, yes, I think I am more conservatively minded. In practice, I tend to value making small gestures and doing small things (like taking kids to Culvers on a Friday night) that make family life and social life lively. Knowing that, I know I would need a more free cash flow to accommodate that. If I were doing adult life alone, or alone in charge of finances, I would prefer a smaller less expensive house so as to have room for the hobbies, social activities and general enjoyments of life. IE: structure my finances so that I would have a fixed budget for the "extras" that's quite a bit larger.

In every M, there's compromise. I've compromised on financial security and personal enjoyment over the years to have a bigger, fancier house. Those struggles have diminished as our income has grown and paid off with the real estate market doing what it's done. We take $100 "fun money" 2x a month for the very things you describe and that's opened up my personal budget to do the smaller things like coffee/wine with friends, save for presents, etc. That's helped enormously.

HO: it's so good to hear from you again- you've been a huge help on my travels here.

I think your situation is a little different. I think the reason your rage comes up is because your husband never has taken any accountability. Over his own affairs, his financial infidelity, etc.

I would say never is a very strong way of putting it. I think, "taken only a small amount of accountability" would be more accurate at this point. He has taken accountability for finances, the comparisons, the lack of listening to my fears/pains/desires in the M. He's still very much a self centered person with a very well developed sense of self. And yes, his selfishness borders on narcissism at his worst. Just as my codependency turned to covert narc when I was entering into my A.

The rage that exists in you comes from years of abuse in my eyes.

It does. Years of abuse I couldn't do anything other than survive through in my childhood. Years of abuse which I accepted and tolerated from my H in our M. The accumulated damage of that, combined with my own stubborn refusal to seek help, led me into becoming a covert narc in an EA/PA with a MCOW.

I had been abused. I also made choices as an adult that in turn abused my H- "deserved" or not. I'm not being abused anymore because I am choosing not to allow it anymore. I still have days where I feel treated poorly, still have days where I'm the one treating others poorly. I'm finding that's all becoming less and less frequent to the point where I'm feeling safe enough to perk my head up and ask, "well, what DO I really want out of this crazy life?" and, "how do I work with the people in my life to get there?" And... most of all... "So what happens when I'm REALLY myself for my H?" If I get rejected as I'm more authentic, I'm learning that there isn't a problem with me. Whatever it is that makes my H uncomfortable (outside me being snippy, irritable or passive-aggressive-etc), is for my H to manage, not me.

He wants you to look at his pain but not his behavior.

Yes, this is where my rage comes up- the feeling of being manipulated in combination the feeling that H

is going to hold this affair over your head as leverage for the rest of your life. He is going to always make it about him while never making any progress as to investigate himself and take accountability over his own transgressions. Anyone would feel enraged.

I agree that at times I feel that way. That I'll never be able to "live it down." Then there are times where I can come to H in an open, vulnerable way, and have him be genuinely empathetic to how hurt I was over the things he has caused in the M without getting defensive. He is making progress... slowly. I didn't feel like this time was him trying to shame me over the rings. He came to me in a vulnerable way and I turned it around to be about my pain for all the reasons above.

I think for him, it's like the way I grieved my dad 5 years out from his death. It wasn't every day that I would struggle, but there were times where I would acutely miss him and wish to see him again. I think H may be struggling in a similar way, mourning the loss of the good there was in our M prior to my A. I don't see it as him trying to shame me any more- and when he's shared his pain with me he's careful to tell me he's not wanting to shame me, but share his hurt. He's made some progress... more would be better though, for sure.

this is you as a bs not being able to heal from his. I don’t think he is ever going to give you the environment you need for that

I'm afraid of this too. I don't think I'll know if he's up to the challenge though unless I challenge him to it. That's going to take time and courage for me to see.

I'

m afraid of this too. I don't think I'll know if he's up to the challenge though unless I challenge him to it. That's going to take time and courage for me to see.

It’s understandable. I know you aren’t ready to do anything towards a resolution. I am only giving you what is see because people with NPD or possibly other personality disorders are very good at manipulation. I feel he makes you think yo are crazy at times and then you come to the board and some of what you say makes it hard for people to decipher what is actually happening because I fear you don’t see it.

I question if he was really feeling vulnerable about the rings but knows it’s a hotspot for you. I think he is using a lot of mechanisms to assert control and it’s very difficult for you to see this. I comment because you need affirmation you are not crazy.

I think you are still very much being abused, and that your feelings of having any control over that are misguided. He dangles that affair to touch the shame inside you to make you feel like you owe him something.

I am not in any way suggesting you are not a smart and very capable woman. Nor am I saying the decision is easy or doesn’t require you to get courage. I am only saying what I do to support that part of you that knows it’s true. I think with the affair you meant to leave and probably should have. But the person you are underneath is a very committed person and you have stayed to make amends. He knows that so if he thinks things get complacent he decides to sit you down about his pain about things like rings and all that. When in reality he had reinforced your entire marriage they meant nothing to him. Keep posting I am not trying to make you feel badly but I want you to know that you are being held down and purposefully.