SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Like many BS's, I wrestled with "why" my spouse cheated on me. There are many good articles out there that address this issue. I found one and it helped me understand a little more clearly. I thought I would share part of it here hoping it would provide a little understanding for those who need it.

What does the other person have that I don't?

The other person has many things that you don't, just as you have many things that they don't. You're not all that, but neither is the affair partner. Typically, people enjoy how the affair partner makes them feel. Think of it this way. Affair partners tend to serve as a vanity mirror and the mate as a magnifying mirror. This is why the affair partner seems to be the preferred commodity, even though, in the long run, it's just an illusion. The reality is that you possess 80 percent of the characteristics your mate wants while the affair partner only has 20 percent of what they want. Leaving the 80 for the 20 isn't very smart.

Thank you for posting this article.

My own theory is that people cheat because they are selfish and think they won’t get caught. Or if they do get caught they are selfish and don’t care b/c they have convinced themselves they are entitled to be happy.

At the expense of hurting others.

Sadly I watched my husband become someone I didn’t recognize during his last mid life crisis affair.

The good news is I became someone he never would have expected either. It’s good for me because I am much more vocal about standing up to him and saying "no". I no longer give in or back down. He forced me to become this person — and I’m certain he regrets it. He wishes he had the old me because his life was a hell of alot easier then.

Good article. Thanks for sharing.

PS while my H’s OW was much younger, she was not in good shape and was a total self centered drama Queen. Complete opposite of me lol.

I think the rule in these life events is that we as BS are also a bit narcissistic - we make it all about us when sometimes it's not.

The AP in my world was better looking than I am. Granted she is also almost 20 years younger than I am (my WH is 10 years younger than me). If you had put my 28 year old self up against her in some sort of beauty contest I probably would have won (at least I'm told it would be "no contest" - my 28 year old ass for example was spectacular lol) but putting my 47 year old body against her 28 year old one and yeah - she wins. Hands down. If your talking about looks purely, then I lose (and would lose to most 20 years olds as you know, youth is valued, less wrinkly, generally better toned, blah blah blah and I'm freaking 50). In my situation getting into some mental comparison about looks was simply stupid - if my WH wanted to find someone more attractive than me they are available all over the place in this world - so worrying about that is simply a waste of time. Yet, I played the mental pick me game for a bit before realizing I was never going to be 28 again AND that it really wasn't about her looks at all. So what was the A about? Was it really about me? Are all A's about some dissatisfaction with the BS on some level?

Another example: There used to be a poster on here who discovered her WH was stopping at street corners and getting $20 blow jobs (okay maybe $50 - $100? IDK - but just paying for 10 minutes of time) around the corner in his car, picking up whoever was available, without any connection to these people. He did it hundreds of times apparently and had been doing so for years. The qualities of the prostitutes were simple - they were apparently all women and they were available at the moment he drove by. That was pretty much it. Does that really have ANYTHING to do with the BS?? Was WS secretly hoping that BS would take up post on some street corner in the hopes he would drive by? Was his desire to do this fueled by some dissatisfaction with BS and if he was married to someone else would this desire go away? Come on now - this was ALL about him.

So, I am going to disagree with the article because it's not realistic. Could I meet someone out there better looking, funnier, smarter, more "matched" to me than my WH - even 80% more?? Maybe - the world is FULL of people - seems possible that someone decidedly better suited to my personality today than my WH is out there somewhere. BUT YOU CAN'T WORRY ABOUT THAT.

To me the problem with the A mindset isn't the BS - the problem is the WS's thought that they should/can/will keep looking for that "better" match especially while still keeping the BS attached to them. That is the WHY that is the real issue - and that has nothing to do with the BS. We as BS make it about us because the A has hurt our ego - our sense of self - AND it's easier to place the blame on ourselves as we have control over us - we can FIX ourselves...but that's all just part of the justification for the pick me game IMO.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 5:47 PM, Friday, February 16th]

To me the problem with the A mindset isn't the BS - the problem is the WS's thought that they should/can/will keep looking for that "better" match especially while still keeping the BS attached to them. That is the WHY that is the real issue - and that has nothing to do with the BS. We as BS make it about us because the A has hurt our ego - our sense of self - AND it's easier to place the blame on ourselves as we have control over us - we can FIX ourselves..

While it's only been about 3 months since DD, the fallout is starting to settle and my thoughts are becoming clearer. My H's A was 42 yrs ago. First year of our marriage. 6th year together. I've been trying to dig into the why. I wanted to believe my version of his story, probably because it hurt me a little less. I now realize that he was answering my questions truthfully. They just didn't fit my story line. When I asked him if she gave him her number he said no, He had asked for it. When I asked him why he cheated, he said all he could remember feeling was a period of time that he was questioning whether he had done the right thing getting married. When I asked him if he had planned to f**K her the night he called her to meet him at the bar, he said no. I jumped all over him about that. Why else would he PLAN a "date" at a bar. How naive did he think I was? He was sure that he hadn't gone with the intention of sex.

I had 9 hrs in the car this week to sit and think. (Brutal). It suddenly clicked for me. He wasn't looking for a ONS. This was not an impulsive decision. He was seeking a relationship. A girlfriend. WHOA! Much worse than a quick ONS. I almost had to pull over. He told me that he immediately realized what a horrendous thing he had done and has hated himself ever since.

My husband displays an avoidant personality. He comes from a pretty dysfunctional family. Mom is nuts. One of his traits that we have laughed about over the years is his inability to make decisions. I don't mean small stuff like what to wear or what to eat. Big purchases are hard for him. He'll research it to death and still not pull the trigger. I had to buy his motorcycle for him because I got tired of visiting the store every week. He is NOT impulsive. I used to kid him that our marriage was the only decision he made and was happy with. I guess not. I don't think his choice to cheat did have anything to do with me. I believe he has/had this innate fear of commitment. Maybe he'd be missing out on something better. Maybe he felt trapped. FOMO IDK. While he's been really great about disclosure and giving me everything I need to heal, he hesitates (avoids) to dig too deep into the "why". I dig deep and he will listen to me. I caught him looking at attachment styles on YouTube. He's a smart guy. Quiet. Emotionally reserved. (thanks mom). He hears me and he is changing.

I know that we missed a bullet. It took 42 yrs of secret keeping and self loathing to finally get to a better place. He realizes now that I was the best decision he ever made.

I'll continue to dig into the "why" but I am confident that it had nothing to do with me.

Your spouse had an affair because they wanted to and the opportunity was there. There is nothing else to it. No AP did not provide the missing "20". AP was willing to cheat.

It’s hard to accept and I understand that as a BS you are trying to find an answer that isn’t so crude and want some nuance to help understand the madness. None of that is true.
WS got excited about being wanted by someone else, didn’t have integrity, and decided to cheat because they could and AP was willing to go along with it. Selfishness on both sides.

Your spouse had an affair because they wanted to and the opportunity was there. There is nothing else to it. No AP did not provide the missing "20". AP was willing to cheat.

It’s hard to accept and I understand that as a BS you are trying to find an answer that isn’t so crude and want some nuance to help understand the madness. None of that is true.
WS got excited about being wanted by someone else, didn’t have integrity, and decided to cheat because they could and AP was willing to go along with it. Selfishness on both sides.

This. Exactly this.

I've never really understood this seeking something much deeper other than they wanted something. At some level they placed a higher relative value on this experience than their spouse/partner and were willing to risk losing what they have for the new experience (or potential/expectation of it). Ultimately, unless it was an "exit affair", they believe they have enough equity or leverage in their relationship that the expected cost "worst case" (discovery) was worth the short term thrill of the experience. Say some mea culpas, go to some counseling, do some penance, and possibly come out with a better relationship after they get some some unmet needs addressed in counseling.

I think most people think of this as a trade (affair experience in exchange for existing relationship), WSs think they can get away with both either by avoiding discovery or because they think their spouse will not leave them anyway. Sometimes they are right and the gamble pays off.

I think there are many layers.

Sure, I can say "I had an affair because he was available and because I wanted to". On the surface that is true.

But if I stopped there in my reflection then what would stop me from having another one?

So then the ws must examine "why would I want to?"

And I am going to say it took me a full year to identify all the things that went into having the affair.

I felt entitled because I let unconscious resentments build.

I was looking for happiness because I had long stopped being accountable for my own happiness.

I wanted to feel younger, sexier, more vibrant more exciting. And I needed someone to validate it. That’s the part your article is taking about, I needed a vanity mirror.

I stopped actively putting effort into creating a life and a marriage I could be happy in.

I had less integrity than I needed. Sure, I had gone decades without even thinking of cheating. I felt strongly against it. But the minute things were hard then integrity was nowhere to be found.

I could go on and on but NOW I had tangible things I could actively work on. None of them points at my husband, because my husband did not cause any of these things. Good whys never have anything to do with the spouse, and where it has to do with the relationship is usually things the ws should have been taking ownership of. Communication, forgiveness, developing as an individual, etc.

So I totally get the camp where they say they cheated because they were selfish and wanted to. That is absolutely true, but it makes it seem more like they are inherent and not fixable. Or they oversimplify them as a single decision to no longer be selfish.

Tell me to be less selfish, and that gives zero direction I need to go in. In fact, I was a people pleaser. A people pleaser is selfish in an unconscious way. They are doing things for others to get something in return. I literally was trying to earn love and the more I gave the less I saw myself and the less the rewards seemed.

So to fix my selfishness I actually had to learn to do things that felt selfish. I had to learn to give myself what I needed so that I felt worthy to receive love for just being me. I had to learn to say no to some things to make more room for things that were important to me. It was absolutely selfish to have an affair, but that was a selfish I could identify, my people pleasing made me a martyr and I would have laughed in your face if you called me selfish because that was not apparent to me. My husband used to say I was the most selfless person in the world but now we know that isn’t a badge of honor.

As far as the AP having anything to give that 20 percent, I get what the author is saying. But I don’t think the AP is really offering anything but to share an illusion. They are seeking the same from you that you are of them: an audience that will validate them. A ws has to learn to love and validate themselves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:54 AM, Saturday, February 17th]

Your spouse had an affair because they wanted to and the opportunity was there. There is nothing else to it. No AP did not provide the missing "20". AP was willing to cheat.

It’s hard to accept and I understand that as a BS you are trying to find an answer that isn’t so crude and want some nuance to help understand the madness. None of that is true.
WS got excited about being wanted by someone else, didn’t have integrity, and decided to cheat because they could and AP was willing to go along with it. Selfishness on both sides.

This is all of it in a nutshell.

Personally, I always thought the idea of some elaborate, nuanced "why" was a load of crap. Each step towards having my A was a conscious choice. At any time, I could have stopped. I could have told my wife about the very first time my AP contacted me. Laughed about it and deleted the message.

A BS will twist themselves into knots, sometimes for years over this proverbial "why" and often blame themselves for the A. Sure they own 50% of the relationship but the WS owns 1000% of the A.

We cheat because we are selfish, entitled broken people who simply decided that it was ok to step out of our relationships.

This is all of it in a nutshell.

Personally, I always thought the idea of some elaborate, nuanced "why" was a load of crap. Each step towards having my A was a conscious choice.

I don’t disagree that cheating is a conscious choice. It’s cruel, and calloused. But in the aftermath of your affair do you not feel like you worked on issues that were contributing factors?

For example, how did you go from being selfish to how you frame yourself now? Can you see the things you worked on under that umbrella as "nuanced"? There are lots of factors that go under the umbrella of selfish that have to be picked apart and dealt with. I think everyone cheats because they want to at the time. But if you stop there where is the introspection and change?

Whys are not justifications to cheat, there are no justifications for cheating. Whys are the things about you that made cheating possible and those to me are the nuanced things you are proclaiming you don’t buy into?

I am not sure about you, but my spouse probably wouldn’t have agreed to reconcile had I not gotten to the bottom of that. And also I would be no more self aware than the day I cheated. I don’t see you that way, I think there has been introspection.

We talk about the "nuances" on this site because knowing them matters, not just to the ws, but to the bs who blame themselves or wonders what they were missing, and replaces it with the knowledge that it’s what the ws was missing. I respect the honesty of how callous you were at the time but proclaiming the nuances don’t matter seems to be opposite of your path and any ws I have watched successfully heal. So maybe I misunderstand you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:50 PM, Saturday, February 17th]

Hiking out,

I don’t want to thread jack, but you are one of the very few WS who had the strength and courage to truly do the introspection to take fully accountability. If every WS could actually dig in to their own issues the way you have…

My comment was more for BS, because I am one who has twisted myself in a pretzel trying to get to the bottom of why because it’s so alien to me. And I hate the "unmet needs" and I especially hate "AP gave them the 20". That is still putting responsibility on the BS, and I will never take responsibility for my spouse’s loyalty.

I do however appreciate your perspective, especially as you said AP was a vainity mirror. A lot of what you have described as to your why is extremely similar to what my WW explained, and fwiw i always enjoy and appreciate your point of view

I appreciate that.

I think the reason that I came to it had a lot to do with my husband holding my feet to the fire. It was either figure it out or we are done. I responded to this thread the way I did not because what you said. It was more because I have been here a long time and there have been many debates over that time about the validity of the whys. It a razors edge of needing the ws to acknowledge they did it it out of selfishness and callousness, but also understanding that there is a lot that can be worked out beneath it. The whys get called excuses, when in reality they are more of a ws to do list.

In other words I took no offense to anything being said, so. I explanation needed.

Hiking Out: In a sea of fantastic insights and posts your first post above is in my opinion one of your very best. You have cut away the chaff and made the most important factors in cheating all the more obvious.

For the people pleaser every relationship is transactional. Sadly, I think even the relationship with the spouse is transactional. This is why they can no longer be a useful vanity mirror for the WS. Even if the BS pre-affair is giving compliments they fall flat. The BS has been bought and paid for in the marriage through a million acts of people-pleasing the WS has already engaged in. As the BS, your WS views you as someone who is only nice to them because of the things they have done. My spouse made a lot of money, presented a nice front, married me, did lots around the house so in his transactional mind anything I did was just a reciprocal payback which I really didn’t mean. Of course I didn’t really love him.

Only a new source of supply could give him the ego kibbles. So at first he could think « maybe I am hot, exciting, powerful, whatever…? ». Of course he quickly made that new relationship transactional by giving her a bonus, paying for some trips with her friends, giving her fake compliments. So she was pretty quickly devalued and thus tossed away after she served her purpose.

My husband still struggles with this. He tried cheating once and got very badly burned, publicly and privately. But there are many other ways to people please. It seems inherently good to him to go to great lengths to ensure people are well treated. But, as we meet new people—men and women—he very quickly offers up nice acts of service. Willing to fit them in and stay late to see them, willing to drop off something they might need, willing to take a call on a weekend. He gives friends and neighbors special service because in this way they are indebted to him. And his comfort zone is people who are indebted to him—all born of self doubt that he is really valuable to others just as he is. (I should say he’s improved some of this but not on HikingOut’s level, the urge is still there)

Thank you for your great insight.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 9:30 PM, Saturday, February 17th]

My H will be the first to accept full responsibility for his actions. When I bring up the "why" he refuses to come up with excuses other than he was a selfish duche bag. Yes, the opportunity arose and yes, he took advantage of it. No question. No childhood trauma or other causes to blame. He said, "dont go there, it was me and me alone". It's me doing the mental gymnastics.

But I do believe that we are more complex than that. I agree with hikingout, that there are many layers to us. Delving into our motivations for our behavior is important. It allows us to learn and change.

My H is more than the A. He's an imperfect human being who had to burn his hand to find out the burner was hot. There are some people who learn quickly and some who don't. At some point I either need to accept that and forgive or move on.

My own theory is that people cheat because they are selfish and think they won’t get caught. Or if they do get caught they are selfish and don’t care b/c they have convinced themselves they are entitled to be happy.

WINNER. WINNER. CHICKEN. DINNER.

I'll add... most WSs villainize, vilify, destroy etc their spouse prior to the choice to cheat, hence the sense of entitlement. And, most WSs are deeply insecure, have no/low self esteem, no/low self worth and think others see them as they see themselves. The affair is their drug of choice to escape that reality.

Been married to WW for over 38 years. I can tell you why I've never cheated on her. It isn't because I'm some morally upright person or that I never had opportunities to stray or that it never crossed my mind; it's because of my deep, abiding love for her and my fear of consequences, karma, hell, or whatever you want to call it depending on your beliefs.

WW on the other hand was a 40-year old woman with the emotional stability of a 14-year old girl. In her mind there would be no consequences for her vile acts. She felt entitled to repeatedly screw other men even though it might have destroyed her marriage. What kind of husband or wife with a 2-year old at home would do something like that? According to her we weren't getting along, her mother had recently died, and she felt entitled due to her selfishness, it was the Prozac, blah, blah, blah.

After lo these many years I've figured out the true reason for her betrayals, for her lack of affection, for her contempt; she never loved me nor did she ever truly feel married to me. That is the "WHY" in my particular situation. It was painful to come to that realization but at least I no longer have to wrestle with the "WHY" question.

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 7:05 PM, Saturday, February 17th]

I agree with Hikingout -- it isn't always so simple.

I think there are many layers.

Sure, I can say "I had an affair because he was available and because I wanted to". On the surface that is true.

But if I stopped there in my reflection then what would stop me from having another one?

So then the ws must examine "why would I want to?"

And the main reason I know it isn't as simple as wanting to and opportunity or runaway selfishness.

Because I have made serious errors in life and I when I examined any my own poor coping mechanisms my own failings, it helped me to course correct and be a better person.

Same with my wife.

If it is simple as wanting to, then every WS is permanently a dangerous partner, and I don't think there is a UNIVERSAL answer to it. It depends on the person. Some WS don't learn, don't want to learn, don't care to learn. I see that here in the forum everyday.

People only change if they WANT to or HAVE to.

For my wife it was both want to and have to. For some WS, they betray their own best interest, their own standards.

My wife's was A was like a lot of A's, it ended very badly. She wasn't treated well, and never wanted to put herself in that situation again.

I felt entitled because I let unconscious resentments build.

I've thanked Hikingout before, because her posts along the way helped my wife a lot.

My wife was the resentment capital of North America for several years. And it wasn't just me - she resented her parents, he job, motherhood, and life in general. Once I was added to her anger list, the M as I knew it was over. She had lived life as she thought it was supposed to be - she never missed a class in high school or college, never missed a day of work, church every Sunday, massive success at her job, she did everything perfect and was the most miserable person on earth. That and abusive parents create a slippery slope for some people.

No excuses, never any good excuses, I'm just saying the mindset isn't always so simple. The Universal conclusion I do agree with is, it's never about us, the result just hurts us the most.

My wife and I are very different people, most of it because of an experience we never anticipated. Experience, good or ill can be added to the learning curve, for those who want to learn or care to learn.

Is the M bulletproof now?

Hell no. We just know what the behavior looks like and what vulnerability looks like and how resentments can add up faster than we expect. We also cope better and team up better when the other partner is struggling.

I understand why this exploration isn't important for some, but I am really glad my wife worked as hard as she did, because she's a better, stronger, happier person for it -- whether we stay together or not.

I think BOTH people have to heal for R to have any chance at all.

ETA: corrected spelling for the word exploration

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 12:44 AM, Sunday, February 18th]

Hikingout

While I don't like to generalize, its a pretty fair statement that most WS are selfish and lack empathy. Both must exist for an A to occur. In my mind, those are the why's. In my view, chasing the "why's" of how I got that way seemed like a waste of time. I had a crappy childhood and suffered physical abuse at the hands of my step dad for many years. Did that contribute to my behavior? Perhaps. But then there are people who've had it much worse than me who have't cheated. For me, they always sounded like excuses.

While in IC, my therapist focused on recognizing those behaviors and changing them. One of the things he said to me which really stuck was "Try to see things through other peoples eyes". I never considered that before and that one statement really turned things around for me. Certainly what worked for me may not for others but I think energy is best spent focusing on what I could change. I can't alter the how or why I got to the point of having an A but I could do something about the here and now.

I think there are many layers.

Sure, I can say "I had an affair because he was available and because I wanted to". On the surface that is true.

But if I stopped there in my reflection then what would stop me from having another one?

So then the ws must examine "why would I want to?"

And I am going to say it took me a full year to identify all the things that went into having the affair.

I felt entitled because I let unconscious resentments build.

I was looking for happiness because I had long stopped being accountable for my own happiness.

I wanted to feel younger, sexier, more vibrant more exciting. And I needed someone to validate it. That’s the part your article is taking about, I needed a vanity mirror.

I stopped actively putting effort into creating a life and a marriage I could be happy in.

I had less integrity than I needed. Sure, I had gone decades without even thinking of cheating. I felt strongly against it. But the minute things were hard then integrity was nowhere to be found.

I could go on and on but NOW I had tangible things I could actively work on. None of them points at my husband, because my husband did not cause any of these things. Good whys never have anything to do with the spouse, and where it has to do with the relationship is usually things the ws should have been taking ownership of. Communication, forgiveness, developing as an individual, etc.

So I totally get the camp where they say they cheated because they were selfish and wanted to. That is absolutely true, but it makes it seem more like they are inherent and not fixable. Or they oversimplify them as a single decision to no longer be selfish.

Tell me to be less selfish, and that gives zero direction I need to go in. In fact, I was a people pleaser. A people pleaser is selfish in an unconscious way. They are doing things for others to get something in return. I literally was trying to earn love and the more I gave the less I saw myself and the less the rewards seemed.

So to fix my selfishness I actually had to learn to do things that felt selfish. I had to learn to give myself what I needed so that I felt worthy to receive love for just being me. I had to learn to say no to some things to make more room for things that were important to me. It was absolutely selfish to have an affair, but that was a selfish I could identify, my people pleasing made me a martyr and I would have laughed in your face if you called me selfish because that was not apparent to me. My husband used to say I was the most selfless person in the world but now we know that isn’t a badge of honor.

As far as the AP having anything to give that 20 percent, I get what the author is saying. But I don’t think the AP is really offering anything but to share an illusion. They are seeking the same from you that you are of them: an audience that will validate them. A ws has to learn to love and validate themselves.

As someone who had struggled with understanding the why of my WS, this post means so much to me. It helps me see things in a new light. You've put into words things I had in my brain but couldnt quite figure out how to say. It doesn't help my M as she is still with her AP and we are in the process of divorce because she thinks that's what she wants. I had hoped she would be able to identify and want to work through the issues like you did because we were together for 18 years and have 2 small kids but her selfishness won out. She did and said some pretty horrible things including telling the other man "my children could be his". It got to the point where I couldn't respect myself if I stayed without her having a complete and utter change and need for atonement. I don't know if she'll ever get there but I hope she does so she can heal and be happy.

My wife was the resentment capital of North America for several years. And it wasn't just me - she resented her parents, he job, motherhood, and life in general. Once I was added to her anger list, the M as I knew it was over. She had lived life as she thought it was supposed to be - she never missed a class in high school or college, never missed a day of work, church every Sunday, massive success at her job, she did everything perfect and was the most miserable person on earth. That and abusive parents create a slippery slope for some people.

No excuses, never any good excuses, I'm just saying the mindset isn't always so simple. The Universal conclusion I do agree with is, it's never about us, the result just hurts us the most.

My wife and I are very different people, most of it because of an experience we never anticipated. Experience, good or ill can be added to the learning curve, for those who want to learn or care to learn.

Is the M bulletproof now?

Hell no. We just know what the behavior looks like and what vulnerability looks like and how resentments can add up faster than we expect. We also cope better and team up better when the other partner is struggling.

I understand why this expiration isn't important for some, but I am really glad my wife worked as hard as she did, because she's a better, stronger, happier person for it -- whether we stay together or not.

I think BOTH people have to heal for R to have any chance at all.

Yet another comment where I feel like I'm reading about my WS. It's really eye opening.

That 80-20 stat sounds made up.

My wife was the resentment capital of North America for several years. And it wasn't just me - she resented her parents, he job, motherhood, and life in general. Once I was added to her anger list, the M as I knew it was over. She had lived life as she thought it was supposed to be - she never missed a class in high school or college, never missed a day of work, church every Sunday, massive success at her job, she did everything perfect and was the most miserable person on earth. That and abusive parents create a slippery slope for some people.

No wonder we benefited from one another’s posts back in the throws of it. if I told you that you basically just wrote my biography, I hope you will believe me. I mean I knew we were similar in some ways, I think I am similar to a lot of ws in some of the paper characteristics but my husband could have written these details word for word. I was a perfectionist, people use that word as a badge of honor, but in reality it is usually someone who will never feel good enough and is overly compensating And do it hard and long enough and it will take you down. Maybe not an affair but something hugely escapist and self destructive.

My life was about optics, not about me our how any of it felt. I needed to do those things "to be somebody". The time would have been so much better if that somebody would have been myself.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:29 AM, Sunday, February 18th]