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Hikingout

While I don't like to generalize, it’s a pretty fair statement that most WS are selfish and lack empathy

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I don’t disagree.

I don’t think one could have an affair without being selfish or lacking empathy. So I don’t think you are generalizing.

Both must exist for an A to occur. In my mind, those are the why's. In my view, chasing the "why's" of how I got that way seemed like a waste of time.

I don’t think the whys are a waste of time. I listed some of my whys in my initial post. They are a to do list of behavior and patterns that I needs to assess and mitigate.not one of them is an excuse to cheat. There are no excuses for cheating.

I had a crappy childhood and suffered physical abuse at the hands of my step dad for many years. Did that contribute to my behavior? Perhaps. But then there are people who've had it much worse than me who have't cheated. For me, they always sounded like excuses.

I don’t think foo is a reason that people cheat. Crappy childhoods don’t cause cheating. ALL childhoods help create coping mechanisms and perceptions of the world. It’s a big development time when you adopt your core beliefs about self, love, relationship dynamics, and many other things. We all carry beliefs from them that don’t serve us, and those things are largely unknown to us because they are ingrained, part of our operating system as a human. It’s why therapists almost always start with it no matter the reason you are in therapy. Even many bs on this site report benefits of this exploration.

Examining your FOO is generally just a portion of work towards healing perception. That isn’t about the past, that is about the present self. How did I get to be who I m today (generally)

While in IC, my therapist focused on recognizing those behaviors and changing them. One of the things he said to me which really stuck was "Try to see things through other peoples eyes". I never considered that before and that one statement really turned things around for me. Certainly what worked for me may not for others but I think energy is best spent focusing on what I could change. I can't alter the how or why I got to the point of having an A but I could do something about the here and now.

I mean I think a lot of people who cheat may regret what they did and not want to repeat the behavior in the future. I was so thunderstruck by the whole situation I think that would have been enough of the bar was to not cheat again. I could have gone home and simply tried to appreciate my husband more. After all, I did that for decades prior to my affair with zero temptation.

That would not have helped my selfishness. I didn’t see myself as a selfish person. I knew what I had done in cheating was selfish and lacked empathy but at the time I saw that as a temporary under extraordinary circumstances. Even my husband would have told you I was the most selfless person he knew. (At least before I confessed my affair to him)

It wasn’t until I spent the time to understand why I was unhappy, why I was trying to escape my life, that I started to understand more.

My people pleasing was selfish. I was presenting others a package to get something in return. I didn’t understand I was a people pleaser. I just thought I was nice. My perfectionism was me hiding behind a mask so I wouldn’t have to be vulnerable. My entitlement was because I had become a martyr of my own making.

If I didn’t "waste" the time to find those patterns, those set of whys, I wouldn’t have started to deal with my avoidant tendencies, recognized my patterns that were keeping me unhappy, learned better communication, how to negotiate, how to have healthy conflict, to be vulnerable and authentic, located the flaws in my integrity and other core beliefs.

I am pretty sure that without fixing the above list and more I still would have the same pain and it would have continued to impede upon my life and marriage.

I think one can take accountability by saying I did it because I was selfish and lacked empathy, but if that’s as far as you go the changes are only so deep and you miss out on some of the richness of healing. I am not saying being able to put yourself in other shoes, stop cheating and trying to be mindful of your selfishness isn’t an improvement, I am just saying that examining the whys is nothing like what you are talking about. I don’t view a higher understanding of yourself as a waste of time. Your relationship with yourself, your thoughts and behaviors will reflect on every relationship you ever have.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:10 AM, Sunday, February 18th]

I think we're all selfish. IMO, that helps a lot in keeping one alive. Consider the 'put your own oxygen mask on first' rubric - in life, if you don't take care of yourself, you won't have much to give. IOW, IMO it's not selfishness in itself that is the problem. Cheating requires a twisted selfishness, perhaps one that tries to avoid dealing with problems but results in adding to one's problem load.

My W was empathic. She cares about others; she cared about me. The question for me is: what happened that reduced her empathy?

IMO, focusing on 'why?' can be and often is a trap. Knowing why one cheated is different from changing from cheater to good partner. The 'why?' can help by showing areas of vulnerability, but wanting to change is crucial to a WS's recovery.

Understanding why one is unhappy, why one is trying to escape one's life, is a great start. IMO, however, it's the next step - changing one's life - that leads to happiness, good relationships, increased effectiveness as a human being, etc., etc., etc.

One corollary of that is: it's often possible to change without knowing why one adopted the behavior that one decides to change. Adopting a healthy exercise program is a prime example - one just puts aside internal objections to exercising and goes for a walk/ on a ride/ to the gym/ .... EMDR is another approach that avoids looking at whys. CBT is another.

I'm not saying that work on whys is wasted. I'm saying the why is not always necessary.

I'm not saying that work on whys is wasted. I'm saying the why is not always necessary.

It was in my house.

As noted above, my wife was a perfectionist in every way and to her own self — she was truly shocked at how far she fell, how much she betrayed her own golden standards (she was very judgmental of other people, pre and during the A). So, if she wasn’t certain all of what contributed to her lowest days and worst choices — how could she avoid similar disasters in her future?

Early on after dday, my wife’s only explanation was that she was selfish, and that oversimplification stalled our recovery.

I hate that answer, it’s easy and lazy.

As you said Sisoon, we’re all selfish, but not all of us make the same choices.

The difference in coping mechanisms and the ability to identify and make very specific changes is substantial.

I think every WS who then cheats later again in life is someone who didn’t try to understand the motivations to betray their own best interests. They didn’t do that work.

Improved coping mechanisms, improved communication and better boundaries are the very specific changes my wife has made. Most important, she restored her esteem — self love is the road to being able to love others in a healthy way.

FOO issues, ego (or need for external validation), those ‘reasons’ once again are never an excuse, but they are important for personal growth.

I had issues with alcohol when I was young. I dismissed any problems relating to alcohol, because I liked to drink (selfish). But when I leaned into my own troubled childhood and anger issues (I loved to get in fights when I drank), I made massive changes. I haven’t been drunk in 34-years, because I did my work. FWIW, no 12-step program at all, I still have alcohol with a meal on occasion, I just have stronger boundaries with it.

Because I wanted to and was selfish and alcohol is easily available are not why I drank too much. Oh, and zero empathy for anyone under the influence as well.

I understand that there are plenty of WS here on SI who don’t want to do that tough self examination. It sure was difficult for my wife. And yet, it was the work that was her half of the foundation of our rebuilt relationship. Because the toughest work for me as a BS was finding a way to trust enough and be vulnerable enough to be a full participant again in the M.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 5:13 PM, Sunday, February 18th]

Hey Hiking -

No wonder we benefited from one another’s posts back in the throws of it. if I told you that you basically just wrote my biography, I hope you will believe me. I mean I knew we were similar in some ways, I think I am similar to a lot of ws in some of the paper characteristics but my husband could have written these details word for word. I was a perfectionist, people use that word as a badge of honor, but in reality it is usually someone who will never feel good enough and is overly compensating And do it hard and long enough and it will take you down. Maybe not an affair but something hugely escapist and self destructive.

Fascinating stuff. Yeah, over compensation, fighting ghosts of never being good enough for her parents (she also had a perfect grad point average in school) really carried into adulthood for her.

Now I’m curious how many WS considered themselves a perfectionist before their A’s — because yes — your posts hit home when my wife read here at SI.

There are a couple of differences. She wasn’t able to articulate it all as well as you did, and she also thought you were extremely brave to post here the way you did, especially in those first couple of years. I always gave her the option to join here, she still prefers to do any research from a safer distance. We’re both grateful you found strength to help people here, you illuminated some very important points about the work my wife needed. Thanks again.

That aside, the words perfection and compromise are now officially banished from our relationship vernacular.

Those two ingredients were big destroyers of the original M, but that’s a different thread to pull on for people attempting R.

Sisoon,

Consider it differently. Most ws are not self aware. Your wife was in the therapy field if I remember correctly. She may be more self aware due to that.

The whys are to become more self aware they are realizing things about yourself and becoming more mindful about them.

My whys made me self aware of behavior that didn’t serve me and by working in those things I now lead a far more rich, authentic, healthy life with healthier relationships.

By and large I think the majority of ws benefit by having this as a template for recovery. I also believe as old wounds stated that work is often profound enough to resonate with the betrayed and helps bridge a deeper understanding of their spouse and gives them insight into their progress.

It also gave me “wins” in building my self worth and understanding my own progress.

In IC this was the template I was given from best I could tell. And therefore I respectfully disagree. This is how I made it from point A to point an and I very much feel that it is a successful self discovery method.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:08 AM, Monday, February 19th]

One last thought, Sissoon.

Without my whys I would have never recognized that I was a people pleaser, where that came from, and mindfully took control over my own autonomy.

I would have people pleased and love bombed him until he was satisfied enough to feel reconciled with. It was actually a much tougher path to reconcile when I was showing up with some "no’s" and other boundaries. He reconciled with me, the real person and not the person playing the role I always played. The whys are mostly for the ws to heal, but in turn they can show up better to the marriage. Finally being loved for who I am is the reward.

Had I not worked on my whys I would not have had the backbone to do that because I would have failed to see the purpose in it when it was much easier to be keep being complaint. What is easy today makes tomorrow hard but deferment is an unhelpful coping mechanism.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:28 PM, Sunday, February 18th]

For HikingOut is it possible to comment on how you think the "avoidant tendencies" were addressed post affair?

you said: If I didn’t "waste" the time to find those patterns, those set of whys, I wouldn’t have started to deal with my avoidant tendencies, recognized my patterns that were keeping me unhappy, learned better communication, how to negotiate, how to have healthy conflict, to be vulnerable and authentic, located the flaws in my integrity and other core beliefs.

Practice and mindfulness.

It was just a day to day thing to force myself to face things and be brave enough to speak up or be vulnerable.

I think I will always be avoidant to a certain degree, but the more I practiced the more techniques I learned and the easier it became. So then the less I avoided. I still run into things I am not comfortable with or afraid of but it’s far less and further between.

I think the key is to see that it exist, understand how it’s holding you back, and being mindful of it as much as possible. Showing up feels better than hiding and we tend to do the thing that feels better to us, we just have to experience both ways to know what feels better.

It wasn't just about whether or not my FWS cheated again.

I think my FWS is a better man *overall* because he has addressed his issues and worked/is working to change them.

It wasn't just about whether or not my FWS cheated again.

I think my FWS is a better man *overall* because he has addressed his issues and worked/is working to change them.

This is important for me/us as well. I am from the "found out many years later" club. I had some clues in real-time and even caught my WW in a very early EA (read my story for more info).

On D-Day, my wife hadn’t cheated in nearly 18 years. She claimed "she isn’t that person" anymore. From the standpoint of "not screwing other men", that was true. But she couldn’t articulate "who she was then, how she has changed and how she is now different". In fact, as we dug in, almost all of the character flaws and issues(extreme selfishness, needing attention/validation, feeling inadequate, avoidant attachment, unresolved FOO issues including CSA), were all still very much alive and present. She was/is very much a "dry drunk".

As her affairs covered multiple men (and one woman) and 20 years, the "whys" were integral for both of us. You can look at the simplistic "she was selfish and wanted to". But there are different "whys" for a newly married, dirt poor 21 year old and a 41 year old, married for 20 years who is very well off with nearly grown kids.

So "not cheating" is not nearly enough for me by a long shot. Is this a person who can "own her shit", recognize and address her issues and become that "better spouse and person"? Still very much TBD as "avoidance" reigns supreme.

These are the points I was trying to get across and Sisoon did a much better job at it:

IMO, focusing on 'why?' can be and often is a trap. Knowing why one cheated is different from changing from cheater to good partner. The 'why?' can help by showing areas of vulnerability, but wanting to change is crucial to a WS's recovery.

Understanding why one is unhappy, why one is trying to escape one's life, is a great start. IMO, however, it's the next step - changing one's life - that leads to happiness, good relationships, increased effectiveness as a human being, etc., etc., etc.

One corollary of that is: it's often possible to change without knowing why one adopted the behavior that one decides to change. Adopting a healthy exercise program is a prime example - one just puts aside internal objections to exercising and goes for a walk/ on a ride/ to the gym/ .... EMDR is another approach that avoids looking at whys. CBT is another.

I'm not saying that work on whys is wasted. I'm saying the why is not always necessary.

I suppose it's also a question of timing. Especially in the aftermath of DDay when a BS is barely treading water, trying to make sense of what happened. Trying to understand the "why" and becoming hyper focused on it. Which IMO doesn't help them at all. Let's face it, no "why" is going to make a BS say "Oh now I get why you cheated".

I also think how this is framed is important. To me, it's always felt like an excuse when none can possibly apply.

Whatever the reason, cheating has made you and them discover something you thought impossible: they are able to put themselves first even if it means to hurt the people who trust them and to whom they promised love and respect. They have shown their immaturity and their selfishness and their avoidance behaviours.

It can be a new chapter in your relationship or a breakup. Whatever you decide, nothing will take away the pain that person has inflicted on you, the lies you had to endure, the deceives you had to receive from the person you trusted and loved. And believe me, if there is a pain, it means THIS CHOICE WAS A VIOLENCE, because it violated the covenant you and your significant other had agreed on, your dignity was crushed, your willingness to be in a monogamous relationship was violated. Honestly you can make up with this person but you cannot make excuses for what they have chosen to do for months, some even years.

Betrayal is a disgusting choice and whoever pursues that road should really realise how unfair, dishonest and hurtful they have been.

Whatever the reason, cheating has made you and them discover something you thought impossible: they are able to put themselves first even if it means to hurt the people who trust them and to whom they promised love and respect. They have shown their immaturity and their selfishness and their avoidance behaviours.

It can be a new chapter in your relationship or a breakup. Whatever you decide, nothing will take away the pain that person has inflicted on you, the lies you had to endure, the deceives you had to receive from the person you trusted and loved. And believe me, if there is a pain, it means THIS CHOICE WAS A VIOLENCE, because it violated the covenant you and your significant other had agreed on, your dignity was crushed, your willingness to be in a monogamous relationship was violated. Honestly you can make up with this person but you cannot make excuses for what they have chosen to do for months, some even years.

Betrayal is a disgusting choice and whoever pursues that road should really realise how unfair, dishonest and hurtful they have been.

I appreciate every comment shared on this thread. I see some who are still in pain, others who have healed. Some people agree with what was said by the article's author and others who disagree, and other postings here. I have learned from what everyone has said and thank you for your input.

The author I referred to wrote more in the article than just the one paragraph I shared to begin this conversation. I will start another string with more of what he wrote. I hope you follow me there and contribute there, as well.