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All great questions, Superesse.

The lady at the rescue told me that their mother lived with an elderly man. I’m pretty sure that it was in the country and she roamed around freely. I’m not exactly sure of the timeframe, but she said that the mama dog had been hit by a car and her pelvis was broken. I’m not sure how close to the time of the birth. So when it was time to have her babies, she was unable to because of that injury. The man looked for her all day and couldn’t find her, until he finally found her outside struggling with the birth. I think there were perhaps 10 babies, but only four lived because of the difficult birth experience which ended with Cesarean. The rescue had another large new mother to whom they gave the four puppies that survived, and they begin nursing with her immediately.

Sadly, after the horrific birth experience, the mother developed an infection and the antibiotics could not save her.

It sounds as though the mother did not have the greatest of prenatal care. But it sounds as though all four of the puppies who survive the birth and were in the care of the surrogate mother have done well. I will see for myself here in about an hour or so. She said they Are happy and healthy and very loving pups… Which is absolutely a description of hound puppies. There was one boy and three girls. I’m only interested in females, so I ask many questions about them. All three of them seem to be on the smaller side like the mama, with the male being bigger like his dad. The rescue lady did tell me that Madison, the pup I’m interested in, what is the smallest of all surviving puppies. Throughout my life, more times than not I have chosen the runt of the litter. There is some thing more trusting, more loving in their eyes. It also may be as you described… Uncertainty about the future. But I will guarantee that she will have nothing to fear with regards to "doing without" at our house.

Y’all, I’m so embarrassed, but I’ve been up for the last hour or two cleaning my house like a crazy woman! I’m dusting my mantle, etc. I will be "zooming" with this woman and there’s no telling what she will think of my house. And the worst part is that it has been raining so much here lately, that the backyard is not mowed/weeded. It looks rough. Luckily, two years ago when I was adopting Maggie, I mowed and weed rated the yard and made sure everything was picked up, and took pictures. I will of course show this lady the mess it is in now, but I will also send her pictures of it in its usual condition. Surely she will understand that I can’t mow when it rains constantly, right?

OK, I’ve got to go. I have to feed the puppies, get my kitchen straightened up a little better, and have a conversation with my babies about how they must behave well during this zoom call.

WISH ME LUCK !!!

🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼

Tush, how cute. I tried to search for lab dance but my Safari browser only wanted to give me sites about lap dances, no thankee...and even after I "argued with it" and told it to "search only for lab dance" no sir, results were still all about either a "dance lab" or a lap dance!!

So, do your hungry labs also bark frantically with high pitched worry barks, like my GSD? It's like he is gonna DIE!

WhatsRight, GOOD LUCK! That poor mama dog, though, UGH. Glad the surviving pups got right with another mama dog. We will need updates!!

Supersesse- sent you a PM regarding the laB dance online. 😊. TOOOOOO cute!

But Tush, I thought you had GSD. ??? Do you have GSDs AND labs?

OK, anyway, my zoom call is finished. Thank God. I have been cleaning all morning. And having conversations with all of the puppies about how they had to behave when I was on the phone. I introduced each of my babies to the lady on the zoom call. She ask questions about each one of them. I had not introduced her to April yet, so I said "where is my April?", And she walked right up to me. I explained to the lady that April was the only one who would Obey commands. So I promptly told her to sit. OF COURSE, April looked at me, and proceeded to jump into the recliner and snuggled in for a nap. The lady laughed out loud.

She didn’t ask anything about the feeding schedule or their food, but I did ask her for her input about Jackie Chan. Because at this point i’m very concerned about her weight loss. So I have bought premium canned dog food and I’m mixing it in with the dry food that I normally give her. She is LOVING it. I told the lady on the zoom call about it and she said that in the situation where a dog is old or ill and just doesn’t want to eat, she is all for giving them whatever it takes to make them comfortable and happy toward the end of their life. That made me very happy.

I apologized for the backyard being rough looking and promised her pictures of the yard when it was in better shape. She just laughed at me and said that she had only two days ago begun mowing their yard again. And not to worry about it.

So, long story short, I go Wednesday at noon to meet "Maddie" and if the meet and greet goes well, I will bring her home. I told her my sister was going to be coming with me so that the puppy could be held on the way home. She said that was absolutely fine, that they had large group of puppies at this time and I could bring whatever friends or family might also be interested with me when I came… As long as she had a zoom meeting with them before they came. I think she was half teasing, but I got the impression they had their hands full with lots of puppies/doggies at this time.

So… of course I am so excited I don’t know what to do. But the thought has entered my mind… She has two sisters. I’m trying to figure out why I just don’t bring them all three home??? That way, they won’t have to miss each other.

Yes, for a while I would have seven dogs. (Makes me smile just thinking about it!) But when my daughter-in-law’s dog goes to live with her in a few months, and when my Jackie Chan is no longer with us, I would be back down to five.

Sooooooo…what do y’all think?

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 5:48 PM, Monday, March 18th]

NOOO don't do that!! Dogs can't concentrate on anything when they are with their litter mates and that gang would overwhelm your other pups.

Plus they tend to bond more with one another than their human....which would defeat the whole reason you want this dog!

Well, drat! I was looking for someone to agree with me! (You should have seen my husband’s face when I proposed the idea to him.)

But, Superesse, you make good points. I was thinking how fabulous it would be that the sisters would not have to be separated. And that they could grow up together. But I certainly do not want my babies to suffer from the kind of litter bond you are speaking of. Almost sounds like I would be making the choice of the litter sisters over my babies. It would be great for them to stay together and get to grow up with each other. But it would be almost unfair to my dogs to have that many more dogs in the mix, but not be included in a relationship with them.

I had also been thinking about a couple of other factors. I’m not sure how mouthy these particular pups are, but with all three of them together… And being hounds they are probably a bit mouthy, it probably would not be fair to the neighbors. And then, of course, I must consider what will happen to them should they outlive me. Which, considering my age, is not out of the question. My niece has already agreed to take the first one, Maddie.

It definitely sounds like there may be more disadvantages than advantages. It just made me so happy to think of all three of them plus April out running and playing in the backyard. Once one of my past miniature dachshunds gave birth to six puppies. The vet would hardly believe me that all six came from her. Anyway, when I would come home from work at the end of the day, I would sneak into the living room of our small apartment. And I would curl up in the middle of the floor, and call to them. I can still hear the thunder of there little paws running toward me and crawling all over me and giving me tons of kisses. For me, there is no stronger way to alter your mood and outlook. The best feeling ever!

I’m going to ask you dog experts a question. I have been wondering this for about 2 1/2 years now, and I’m hoping maybe y’all can tell me.

I got sweet April just almost 3 years ago. She was the most precious little angel when she was about six weeks old or maybe it was eight weeks. We brought her home and spoiled her so much!

My sister brought her dog over one day to play with the older dogs, which they did often without issues, and somehow she got into the room in the house where we were keeping baby April. Sophie must have thought that April was a little mouse or something because when April saw her and started running, Sophie started chasing her and it was truly frightening. She wasn’t playing at all. Finally April found an old metal milk jug that I keep my dad‘s canes in that he used to use. And she cowered behind that milk can. Sophie was still going after her and the only thing that saved her was that my son grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and lifted her up and away from April.

My sister was of course horrified, as we all were, but Sophie has never so much as growled or snarled at any of my dogs before or any people that I’ve ever seen her be around. We all believe after watching what happened, that she thought that April was some kind of little wild animal in the house. Because it happened before they were properly introduced.

Anyway, since that time, April cannot tolerate being lifted up. So if she is on the floor with her front legs on the couch, if I lean down and put a hand under each of her front legs on her torso, and lift gently, she screams at the top of her lungs. As if I’m killing her. So whenever I want to lift April, I always put my hands behind her booty and lift her that way. I am 99.9% certain that it does not hurt her when I try to lift her, and yet she screams anyway.

Do you all think that could be a result of her being attacked by Sophie as a baby? And if so, is there anything I can do to help her move through that? Can you get dogs over PTSD?

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 8:31 PM, Monday, March 18th]

Today's topic seems to be: screaming puppies! For sure, April was scarred by that experience. I'm not aware of how one could desensitize her to that trauma response, and if you can usually pick her up the way you do, no need to subject her to "flooding." I never liked that concept in human psychology, even if they claim it works...

At 10, Missy still reacts with fear and whimpering if she hears any little electronic beeps, because as a pup, her Momma had never before taken a temperature with a rectal thermometer and kept missing her rectum with it. She has never gotten over the noise that thermometer made, and she'll climb up in Daddy's lap if any similar sound is heard! All my fault.

Y'all, Minky has terrible looking hair loss around his eyes, with even a little red crack by the tear duct on his right eye and loss of hair on top of his nose. We stopped by the vet and have another appointment for Thursday. Last month, they did a slide on his nose to see if anything showed up, $155 for that and some other stuff. I use Nexguard for fleas and that is supposed to kill any mites or mange. Vet last month thought he just scraped it on the cattle fence of his yard. Today, a different vet said it is a puzzle, may possibly be auto-immune (groan, think special foods and raw diets for a lifetime!) Or it could just mean a zinc deficiency. I told her he plays outside in the puppy pen on our old orchard soil which has high metal concetrations from 100 years of now-illegal pesticide use. I worry it is affecting my baby, he looks awful!! And vets aren't helping me.

Remember WR, more pups = more vet bills, too.....especially German Shepherds! I don't think it itches or hurts him, but if it is due to immunity issues, I'd bet it could be due to him constantly being pegged on emotional "10" level all day long. Whenever I get very worked up, my immune system takes a dive. I believe it's the same with dogs. Help?!

I was thinking how fabulous it would be that the sisters would not have to be separated.

Superesse was right - there actually is a term for it, littermate syndrome. Google it if you wish. As she said, the puppies tend to bond more to each other than to humans, and they just become too dependent on each other. They say that if anyone does decide to raise siblings to make sure that they eat separately, that they spend time alone with their human, that they get individual training time, etc. IOW, you triple your time investment in trying to make them independent and have them bond to you. Not a good idea.

Littermate syndrome is a real thing. My niece has Corgis from same litter and they don't give a FUGG what they say. They do their own thing. They are adorable and potty trained and great with the baby (good thing another one coming in Sept) but they are not "well trained".

That said it does sound like a trauma response with your pup, and I would just use alternate methods of handling, maybe try desensitization when she is sleepy calm snuggling. If it becomes a real issue then meds can definitely help to calm to work through it. My 5 yo lab didn't have his paws messed with when he was at the trainer from a year to 1.5 years and when he came home he would not allow it. He is a 80 ball of muscle. So we worked through it. I can now mess with his paws whenever I want. He never needs nail trims due to how much he runs.

WR - I have labs. Suprese had the GSD's. My dogs go through extensive training for waterfowl hunting. It is amazing how you can give a command "Back" and he will go 100 yards or 50 feet depending on the inflection and how big my movement is. Then blow a whistle and say stop and will skid to a stop turn and sit and wait for the next command to find a bird. It is truly amazing that you can teach them so much. They are sooooo darn smart.

I do have a friend that wanted to replace 2 dogs that passed shortly after each other and managed to get 2 different labs from 2 breeders 2 weeks apart but the same age and even she struggled with the littermate syndrome.

Dog Experts, tell me about Zinc in kibble, because after looking on the bags for the amount of Zinc in the weight of his 2 dry foods and plugging those numbers into what his body should require (minimum daily requirements) if my math is correct, Mink is only getting 1/3 of the necessary Zinc in his daily diet, according to my Veterinary Manual (Dog Owners Home Veterinary Manual)!

That book says a dog should get 10 mg Zinc per Kilogram of body weight. This info was what I couldn't find on any dog food label; the labels only say what the amount of Zinc in their mix is, usually 150 mg per kilogram of dog food. So whether it is a cup or a whole bag, that's the ratio of Zinc per kilogram of dry dog food where a kilogram is 2.2 pounds.

But then you have to know your dog's weight and what amount you give the dog, and when I calculated it that way, after we actually weighed out one of his meals (1.45 pounds per feeding times 3 a day, still) the poor boy is only getting 34% of what his body needs!

Tell me I'm not A BAAAD MOMMY!!!

I wish you could see how awful his face looks. I think he most likely does have Zinc Deficiency Dermatosis. Large Breed, fast growing pup. But we feed certified Large Breed Puppy foods, so who knew.

So I'm going to order him some Zinc Sulfate and start him on that. The book says improvement will be rapid. Poor guy, maybe THAT's why he's been so damn frantic about his feeds?

Well, thanks y’all so much for the warning about the littermate syndrome thingy. I’m disappointed because in my heart I have always felt that the more dogs, the better. But it actually really makes sense, and not only do I not want to NOT be closely bonded to them, but I don’t want my dogs to have to be in a situation with that going on.

So on Wednesday I’ll be coming home with only Maddie. But it will be wonderful! 😊

Tush, I guess I missed your announcement about the upcoming addition to your family. CONGRATULATIONS!!! The only thing more fabulous than one grandchild, is more than one grandchild! 😊

Supersesse, don’t feel badly about the zinc thing. No matter how much we love our kids or our dogs or whatever, we can’t all be doctors/pharmacist/expert trainers/dietitians/mind readers, etc., etc. It seems you have figured it out, and are taking every step to correct it. You are a very good mommy!

I am especially sensitive to all of the hats that many of us have to wear every single day. Just a little while ago my husband‘s Foley became clogged again. And I could not get a hold of the home health nurse. So what was I to do? The last time she was here she told me that she thought I would be able to do it, and the next time she came, she would have me do it myself while she watched and coached me. But, as fate would have it, it happened tonight and she’s not coming back for a little while.

So I had to do it myself. I don’t know how well I did it, but I made every attempt to be a sterile and procedurally correct as possible. I think I went through 10 pairs of gloves, including the sterile ones. I hope I did it correctly. I cried the whole time, fearing I could hurt him. But I did it.

We can all definitely do more than what we think we can.

After several tense hours this evening reading and researching about this hairlessness problem Mink is suffering from, that I no doubt created by trusting some darn feed labels on the various brands we have tried, I saw your reply WhatsRight, and your words lifted me up so much! Thank you!!!

I try to read a lot about my breed, to keep learning. There is an internet forum devoted to them but I haven't signed up. The posters pretty much all seem to be major food snobs...like how many supplements and organ meats and chicken wings and fish oil they administer on the daily. But I guess it is because so many Shepherds do have weird problems...

So I'm kinda irked I have to tell the vet what she should be telling me. We have already treated him for: a painful ear yeast infection with a staph infection of his groin at only 5 months old, then had to treat another ear infection 2 months ago, and again look at his hairless snout and now hairless rims around his eyes?! Nobody had even started to mention diet deficiencies, just "allergies," which is way too broad to figure out. Spend more on tests, right....

I feel I've already poured way too much money into these skin issues - and learned nothing. Today, I grabbed a calculator and used my own eyes to evaluate the damn dog food...and lookie there. Sheesh. It makes me wonder what else in his diet our puppy needs but isn't getting.

Tushnurse, now I really know why you went to feeding your old girl, yourself.

Sweet puppy dreams, all!

I am not saying you are wrong about the zinc - I really have no idea. However, I do know that many vitamins and minerals need to be balanced to each other so just starting to give a bunch more of one thing may not be the right thing to do in relation to something else. Maybe I'm being a bit of a Pollyanna as I really do believe that the major commercial food brands do have professional nutritionists and are making a quality product. That said, even a quality product may not be right for each and every dog. Certainly, some do have special needs.

I have belonged to many dog forums for my breed, and for all breeds, over the years and when you talk about the food snobs, I get it. I call it a "food fight" and I just refuse to fight. I might say what works for my dog(s) and me, but I'm sure not going to say it will work for everyone. If someone has the time and resources to make their dog food (and do it correctly, because quite frankly, I don't believe that they are all balancing things the way that they should), then more power to them. If someone chooses a quality kibble that works for their dog, great. I get a kick out of raw feeders telling the kibble people "you're killing your dog!" when my kibble-fed dogs are living longer than average life spans for their breed. I do dabble around in raw sometimes for certain reasons, and I've home-cooked for dogs for particular reasons, and I feed kibble. I open a can every now and then when needed, too. It's all good!

Good point SackofSorry, I think I should look into this a little further than I have. I may have misunderstood what the food analysis on commercial kibble is meant to tell us. If it says there is X mg of a mineral in each kg of food, that ratio applies for every cup I scoop out of the bag, with the understanding that it takes about 4 cups to equal a kilogram. Therefore if I only feed my dog 2 cups at a feeding, he is getting only half of whatever amount on the bag, right? Multiplied by the number of times a day I feed him, and when Indid that I was shocked to see he isn't getting what my veterinary manual stated.

This dog food thing is a major hassle!

Suprese I want to encourage you tontry switching his protein and grain in his food. Skin and ear issues are usually related to a sensitivity to one or both.
I had a Golden that could not tolerate corn, my old lab that passed in Sept developed a corn allergy then a chicken allergy. I 100% believe it came from her eating chicken food and poop. The food is heavy in corn and she would sneak into the coop and eat the chicken food. She would always eat their poop if given the opportunity, gross sure, bit pretty normal dog behavior.
When I switched to home made food her skin and ear issues cleared up almost immediately. I did do a ton of research and if I wasn't confident in my calculations of nutrients would have gone to the vet school nutritionist close to me.

Thank you Tushnurse, I think the vet was thinking first about his diet, too, as her first question was "what do you feed him? Only after I replied "lamb and brown rice puppy chow mixed 50-50 with salmon and ancient grains (quinoa, chia, flaxseed, barley) did she offer possible zinc deficiency. I had changed his feed back in September during Mink's first ear infection because a friend with Retreiver Agility champion dogs warned us feeding chicken was the # 1 problem for their dogs. The vet back then thought it more likely to be seasonal environmental allergies than food allergy, but she did say start to suspecting food if it kept returning. So ever since, I've avoided giving the boy any chicken, corn, soy, peas or potatoes, even for his training treats. That makes for a lot of label reading!

(I suppose he'd really like it if I dipped into my freezer contents from that hindquarter of beef we bought last year from our farmer...sorry Minky...(

The immediate worry is his right eye has a crack at the tear duct that is making a lot of mucous and I feel we should get something to clean it out with. We had a tiny bit of NeoPolyDex eye drops left from our old boy that this vet said I could try, until we see them Thursday. But Mink thinks it's a big game to play keep-away from anything I try to put near his eyes...he opens his jaws and moves that head back and forth lightning fast...even with my H holding him, we're just not quick enough and my old eyesight doesn't let me focus so clearly to deposit one tiny eye drop in the right spot, while he squints his eye shut!! Guess we need to muzzle him and have some jerky treat to occupy him. Big dogs are a lot of handling when they aren't well...even when they ARE well...

WR how goes it with your brood?

I love this thread. For quite a few reasons.

First of all, you’re probably not gonna be on this particular thread if you’re not a dog lover. So we’re all in really good company!

Also, I love how folks address all kinds of different doggy related issues. The excitement of adoption, littermate bonding, mutts and purebreds, and even health and dietary issues. I feel like I’m learning so much… As well as learning how much I don’t know!

This morning I woke up a little nervous. All I’ve ever felt in the past was pure excitement about getting a new dog.But I find myself hoping my doggies love Maddie and vice versa. And hoping she will want to sleep with me. (I know…a big no-no to some 😏)

So hopefully the sun today will dry out the yard enough to mow - even with the cool temperatures. I don’t want her to have to plow through wet grass to find a place to pee. And I want the back yard to be a fun place to play with April and hopefully Bella.

A question for the experts… My friend thinks I should be getting a bed for Maddie for when she gets home. I’m thinking I probably won’t because we have two recliners and a thick dog bed in the den where we sleep, as well as the couch where I want her to sleep with me… Also having doggy smells. What do you all think?

Did you happen to see if the foster lady had a bed for her? I know you may not want to ask her, she might deduct 5 points or something, LOL...but many book authors I've read claim a bed gives them something of a personal space, which can help them settle in. It may be a waste of money, so maybe do an old pillow in a case for her? Something you could slip a familiar item from her home into, if the foster lady will give you something?

Agree she needs some familiar smells so a blanket or bed from the foster is important. Especially if you aren't going to crate train she should have a place. Somewhere you can give the command and she goes. This helps keep chaos down and everyone safe like if the doors need to be open. To move something, or have a delivery of some sort. Being able to say place and have them go to it and stay there is really basic training stuff. So their own bed is important if you don't crate.
We have crates and memory foam dog pads in them for ours. My 5yo stays in his all morning as the sum shines in and bakes him. Once it has gone past the crate he usually comes up to my office with me.

Well, I do have a nice (used) doggy bed with like fleece on the inside and suede like fabric on the outside that should fit her. It would be a "hand me down" that has hardly been used. I will ask and see if there is some little blanket or something to take with us for the familiar smell.

She just now texted me, asking if we were still planning to come tomorrow. Seriously? I answered ABSOLUTELY! and she loved it. Do some people go through searches, phone conversations, etc, then not show up to adopt them? Sheesh.

I’ll be on the road by mid morning. Y’all be thinking of us.