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Gosh ladies my wh says the same thing about asking for forgiveness after the fact. And that’s sort of what he did when he talked to the AP!!!
I wonder if that’s a mentality of folks who are prone to be unfaithful???

I don't know that making decisions without considering others is always avoidant. My H doesn't seem to have the symptoms of APD. I think it could also be indicative of something else, like ADHD, which he DEFINITELY has.

I wouldn’t say "always" about hardly anything.

What is APD? The only thing I could find was Antisocial personality disorder? I see there is an AVPD, avoidant personality disorder. At any rate, I don’t think you need a personality disorder to display avoidant behaviors. I think everyone has avoidant behavior to varying degrees, but that most ws exhibit them at a greater rate.

That's a really interesting question. I've wondered the same thing!

When I was grilling H shortly after DDay, he said that he cheated because he wanted more sex, he felt entitled to it, and he thought I'd never find out about it. Essentially, forgiveness not permission, IF it ever came to that.

The first time he blew money on building a car was during his last A. He hid money because he wanted to spend it on the car and he knew I'd balk. He convinced me that he was swapping parts and trading labor to get it done, when actually he'd gotten a raise and hadn't told me about it. (This was before direct deposit.)

The second time, which was just a couple of years ago, it was almost like he got too deep into his mission to hit the "pause" button. He certainly didn't WANT to pause, either. He just needed to get it done and then he'd deal with the fallout. It was also an emotional crutch, because he was floudering and he's always been a genius at building hot rods, but it let him down because he can no longer physically do what he used to be able to do. And then he blew it up by neglecting to hook up gauges. It's become an albatross. The motor is actually going back in the shop tonight to get fixed. He's using his bonus to do it. If he fucks up a credit card again, I might just leave him. And he knows it. I'm DONE with financial infidelity. I'm DONE with the "ask for forgiveness, not permission" bullshit.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 11:44 PM, Friday, April 5th]

What is APD?

Sorry, AVPD.

Okay, so AVPD is different from avoidant behaviors. Got it. I've never dug into that before. The bold ones apply to my H, IMO:

Avoiding Social Situations: People might avoid parties, gatherings, or even one-on-one meetings due to social anxiety or fear of judgment.

Procrastinating on Tasks: Putting off tasks or responsibilities, especially those perceived as challenging or unpleasant, is a common form of avoidance.

Avoiding Medical Appointments: Fear of bad news or discomfort with medical procedures might lead someone to skip regular check-ups or necessary medical care.

Refusing to Drive or Fly: Specific phobias, such as a fear of flying or driving, can lead to avoidance of these modes of transportation, even when necessary or convenient.

Avoiding Conflict: Some individuals avoid confrontations or difficult conversations, fearing anger, rejection, or other negative reactions.

Avoiding Certain Foods or Activities Due to Health Fears: An excessive concern about health might lead to unnecessary avoidance of certain foods, activities, or environments.

Avoiding Relationships: Fear of rejection, commitment, or vulnerability might lead someone to avoid romantic relationships or close friendships.

Avoiding Work or School: Anxiety about performance, fear of failure, or other underlying issues might lead to avoidance of work responsibilities or academic pursuits.

Avoiding Places Associated with Past Trauma: A person who has experienced trauma might avoid places, people, or situations that are reminders of that traumatic event.

He doesn't like to sit at the dinner table because it reminds him of the trauma of dinners with his alcoholic father.

I think my wh wants to fix the marriage without fixing himself!!

I wanted to highlight this for you as it might be a key moment for you. I don't believe the marriage can be saved without him working on himself.

You mentioned in other posts that he refused IC and books and would rather this all just get put into the past. I think most waywards hope that will work. I don't think I've ever seen it work.

You can decide what you need to move forward but the standard advice here is pretty sound. The WS needs to work on themselves, their "whys" (which most don't really understand without looking under their own hoods) and who they want to be, if they actually want to change at all. That typically involves at least counseling.

If he isn't willing to look at himself then he doesn't know who he really is except a series of habits and coping mechanisms that resembles an adult human but isn't deeply authentic. How do you ever trust someone like that?

I'd strongly recommend you raise this topic again. If you're ready, you may want to demand it as a condition of staying married.

TheEnd
I didn’t include it in my post but my wh did agree to go for counseling. Both couples and individual. He’s been dead set against it the whole time because he doesn’t believe in them. But i put my foot down and made this a requirement if we are to move forward. He didn’t agree begrudgingly. He still doesn’t believe in it but said if it’s important to me, then he’d be happy to give it a try.
However, my new therapist (the one who said WH will most likely cheat again because of the addiction to octcytocin unless he gets in-patient rehab style treatment) said my WH might merely be doing damage control and just trying to placate me. I told the therapist I will know in time.

That's good Cedar. It's a start.

It may begin as compliance but he might find once he starts that he actually likes it.

You are smart to observe.

However, my new therapist (the one who said WH will most likely cheat again because of the addiction to octcytocin unless he gets in-patient rehab style treatment) said my WH might merely be doing damage control and just trying to placate me. I told the therapist I will know in time.

I continue to be floored that he is ready to send your h to rehab without having one conversation with him. I do like he is keeping your eyes open and is advocating for you, but I fear he is too text book/school guided than experienced.

I had three sessions with the therapist and he firmly believes my WH will cheat again unless he gets drastic intervention. But even with that, he’s not sure WH is able to stay faithful. The therapist said because WH has many FOO issues and watches porn to masturbate, it puts him at a high (almost 100% certain) risk for future cheating.
It’s like he’s saying there is no hope for anyone who cheats.
They will do it again no matter what.
I hate hearing that because i am in R and want R to be successful. But this is not the first therapist who told me this. I had another guy who told me the same thing. I met with him once and decided he made me feel bad so I didn’t continue.
Interestingly, both are Christian ministers who also have a degree in counseling.
Anyway, I don’t want to hear sugar coated sweet messages. I want to hear the truth, however painful it might be and that’s why I am trying to stick it out with this new therapist. Because maybe I am not seeing something??? But i am not sure….
i am grateful for the SI folks here who share their stories and experiences. I think they are stronger proof than the book knowledge some therapists have.

Cedarwoods, you need better therapists. No one can predict that anyone would 100% cheat or not cheat. There are terrible therapists out there, I had gone through four before I found a good one and I am holding on to her tight. A bad therapist can do more harm than good. They are human beings just like us and come with their own baggage. So don’t take everything they say to be the absolute truth. Your husband does need intervention and some consequences. But to quote stats like that isn’t helpful.

I hope you are doing better and taking care of yourself.

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 12:59 AM, Tuesday, April 9th]

Did these therapists know your H? If not, they violated the ethics of many therapy organizations in drawing conclusions about your H from what you say.

SO what do you say about your H? Do you depict a man who can't be faithful? Do you tell your therapists some truths that you hide from yourself? Are you trying to force yourself to R when you really want to dump him or think your H is a bad long term bet? (I don't know the answer to these questions, but you do.)

We talk about 'giving up trying to control the outcome.' You can't control your H. You can't change him. You can control only yourself.

That means being in the here and now, evaluating what your H is doing right now, and responding in your own best interests. Maybe your H will be a good candidate for R, maybe not. Either way, you can heal, survive, and thrive.

If you're forcing yourself to get to one resolution or another, you won't ever be able to find peace and contentment.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:58 PM, Tuesday, April 9th]

If I am not mistaken, the therapist is simply saying that unless the husband goes to therapy WILLING TO CHANGE, he is likely to cheat again because he is not putting in the necessary work.

Going to therapy to tick the box, like he seems to be doing, without believing in it, will not help him do the changes he needs to become a safe partner. It is an illusion for Cedarwood and sounds like he is teasing her.

[This message edited by Fantastic at 4:10 PM, Tuesday, April 9th]

Sisoon
The therapiasts do not know my WH. They only know about WH from what I’ve told them. But the story has many red flags. His affair was highly sexual when he wasn’t very sexual in our marriage. He left to be with the AP after Dday because he wasn’t sure if he could be happy with me (our marriage had not been good for a long time). Then AP eventually dumped him. Few months after that, he reached out to me to see if we can talk and through that process we decided to R. Then he re-engaged with the AP when she reached out instead of ignoring her. So I can see why the therapist would say WH is high risk. The therapist’s argument: WH didn’t end the affair, AP did. If AP did not end the affair, he would still be with her. He re-engaged with AP so he’s still addicted to the high of the affair. He’s missing the sexual high he got in the affair. He will cheat again.

My WH said he tried to break free from AP but he just couldn’t. Maybe this is the addictive nature of affairs people talk about. AP was very good at doing the push-pull game with him and keeping him wanting. He says he is angry at himself for having stuck it out with her. And that’s why when he sort of "ended" it with her when they talked 6 months ago, he said it felt good that he got to end it. And close the book. And tell her he’s done with her and nope, he’s not going back to her. That he had some agency.

Do I believe WH would cheat again? I don’t think so but so did many betrayed spouses on SI who gave R a chance.
Do I want to dump his ass? No. I’ve seen positive changes in him that have been consistent in the last 18 months. Is he a good actor? Maybe. More time will tell.

Letting go of the outcome is something I am working on.
I need to be 100% ok whether this R succeeds or not.
I know that is the key to my healing.

As for therapy, i think it’s a positive sign that WH is willing to try. I am hoping that it will be different than what he had expected and want to explore more. The fact that he’s willing to go is huge. It’s like an atheist going to church.

Want to add that I myself did not really believe in therapy until Dday when I needed something desperately.

And having gone through a number of therapists, I see why I thought the way I did. Some are just not good. Some can do more harm than good. And i have yet to say therapy has been very helpful to me. Talking to the folks on SI has been far more helpful.

On a side note, I belong to a betrayed wives support group and one woman’s husband cheated on her with their marriage counselor and kept the affair going all the while they were in therapy together.

And a prominent businessman in NYC (my friends know him) had an affair with his therapist (it was all over the news last year) and he’s suing her for seducing to have sex with her.

So my point being, not all therapists are great.

[This message edited by cedarwoods at 7:11 PM, Tuesday, April 9th]

My W was a therapist whose ap was a client. That's why I almost always write 'good IC' or 'good therapist'. I seriously doubt the competence of a therapist who diagnoses a person based on the words of that person's partner, and I seriously doubt that anyone can reliably predict the future for an individual.

R is about the future, not about the past. A number of serial cheaters have changed; a number are changing; a number will change - and it looks like your H isn't a serial cheater. In pre-Covid days, we used to meet up from time to time - different people at different meet-ups; we called the 'g2gs' - 'get 2 gethers'. I found it uncanny that some people who started as WSes were accepted by other attendees and some were not - and the WSes I met who seemed somehow 'off' always turned out to be in false R.

That's just an anecdote, not a proof of anything except that former WSes may generate different vibes than questionable WSes do. Your task is figuring out if your particular WS is a good long term bet or not.

A WS's willingness to enter IC is positive for R, if the WS will use the therapy as a way of changing from cheater to good partner. It's hard work, but if your WS sticks with it, he'll be the primary beneficiary.

Not cheating again isn't a great payoff for you, although it might be for your H. My reco is to go into R only if you want to spend the rest of your life with him in a marriage that serves you both. Why do the work to get what you define as 'meh'? What I define as 'meh' is worthless to you, of course, but I'd still recommend that you go for a lot better than just 'no more cheating'.

Also, it's not that difficult for someone to fake it for a couple of years; much more than that, I think there's a chance that the work is probably complete - note the 'probably'. At 2-4 years, I chose to bet my life that my W had protected herself against the vulnerabilities that opened her to her first A - but I knew that other vulnerabilities might show themselves in the future. They did; luckily, it didn't result in another A - but it did result in more pain for both of us, just not a LOT more pain....

In any case, you can heal yourself, irrespective of what your H might do. Maybe you'll R; maybe you'll D; but if you heal yourself, you'll almost definitely be on your way to thriving after being betrayed.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:08 PM, Wednesday, April 10th]