SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My counselor mentioned something I would like to delve deeper with the SI community.

He said when men orgasm during sex, they produce the feel good hormones (oxytocin) that they can get addicted to. And this is what makes it difficult for them to end the affair and possibly have more affairs in the future because they are chasing after the feeling. He said men who watch porn have this issue more than others because real life sex with the spouse does not satisfy. They don’t necessarily have sex addiction per se but they have a chemical addiction and require lengthy rehabilitation style intervention. Which means, ending the affair, having no contact with the AP, getting counseling to work on the whys, etc won’t be effective in preventing future cheating. I am not sure if i am making myself very clear here but i would love your thoughts.

[This message edited by cedarwoods at 3:44 PM, Friday, March 22nd]

From what I have read...the chemical high that most of us feel when we are in a new relationship...some call it "new relationship energy" or NRE...these hormones normally level off between 6 months to 2 years. An A can make these hormones seem more intense because of the taboo essence involved I would imagine. I have read that if an A lasts more than 2 years then it is usually not because of love...but of convenience. This is all general information though from what I gathered.

There are also hormones that are released that come from long term relationships...those that last longer than 2 years . Even though these feel good hormones aren't as intense...they LAST...they don't fade like the NRE hormones do. These feel good hormones can't be felt in an A because an A is NOT that type of relationship.

It has been a while since I researched all of this...but if I remember correctly...people can get addicted to those feel good HIGHS. The problem is...these HIGHS don't get as intense and don't last as long as the previous times. The person keeps trying to reach that first HIGH...but the brain keeps compensating and it eventually leaves them unsatisfied. By then...they have truly LOST the sustainable HIGH they could have had all along.

You may want to look up "affair hormones" or "new relationship energy". I think that is what I researched way back when . Maybe even look up Oxytocin to find out for sure what it says?

[This message edited by Want2BHappyAgain at 7:06 PM, Friday, March 22nd]

This is the first time I've ever heard that the highs from an A are so powerful that no amount of treatment will help and the cheater will continue to cheat.

All absolutes tend to make me bristle.

But I truly hope this isn't true. If it is, a significant portion of the population is lost to "cheater for life."

My first reaction is I don't believe that. It may be true for some folks. Just like a heroin user may never recover and end up dead. But some do.

I used to be a smoker. Did you know smoking releases serotonin and endorphins? I read once that it's the perfect drug (it is calming, improves memory, improves mood). Except it kills you.

When I made the decision to quit, I picked a date. As it approached I felt genuine sadness. Almost bereft. How does that make any sense? This habit could kill me. It was also gross, expensive and ran too much of my precious life. I knew that intellectually. But I was addicted to it and the thought of giving it up made me think I'd be this depressed, cranky person, never to feel good again.

It wasn't true of course. It was damn hard to quit. But I did because at the end of the day, the feel good boost was just that - an artificial boost. It didn't actually make me happier. It was dangerous and stupid. After a time, serotonin levels return to normal. Endorphin boosts came from things like friends, family, laughter, living life. The need goes away.

I can't believe the high from illicit sex is impossible to beat.

I would say it’s not just about the sex part. I don’t discount there is bonding there and that your IC knows brain chemistry.

The dopamine hits for me were in every form of contact. I am not sure after the affair went physical it deepened that any for me. I would have been addicted without it reaching that point.

I don’t know if I agree there is no recovery. However, I knew I was in even more pain after my affair and it would be possible for me to try and solve that again through yet another person.

I escaped my pain with one affair. I think it’s entirely possible to keep building in that. It’s why I confessed and why I put myself in therapy.

I think it takes a while to see the truth of what happened and once you see it, I don’t think the option is as appetizing. I personally can say I wouldn’t even get anywhere close to having one again.

I do think that affairs are addictive. And I do look at relapse and can see how it would happen. But I also think someone can work to build a stronger value system and other aspects and realize that what you really need to do is activities that give you normal bits of dopamine and manage your life in a way you don’t want to escape.

Have you been able to confirm anything yet?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:38 PM, Friday, March 22nd]

I have not had the opportunity to talk to WH yet. I will post an update soon.

The IC session I had was with a brand new therapist. He came across as being very knowledgeable and compassionate but our session left me feeling unsettled. Maybe because he spoke the truth that I am not comfortable hearing while my now ex counselor (recently retired at the age of 78!) was more of a sugar coating kind of person that said what I wanted to hear. The new therapist did not say there is no hope for those who cheat but that the work required is lengthy, deep, and very very hard. They have to be willing to commit to in-patient rehab style help for months and get help for the chemical addiction he talked about, get weekly counseling, etc. etc. He said this bc he felt my WH had relapsed by getting back in contact with the AP. He felt WH might be looking for that chemical high again.
He was bothered by the fact my WH did not end it with the AP but was dumped by her instead. He believes if the AP had not dumped him, he would still be with her because of the addiction. Basically he is saying my WH came back to me because he had no other option, and therefore, possibility of him returning to her is high because of the addiction. He said oxytocin is more powerful and addictive than morphine.

Which means, ending the affair, having no contact with the AP, getting counseling to work on the whys, etc won’t be effective in preventing future cheating.

While I agree that (brain) chemically speaking affairs are addictive, I don’t like the sound of that, not sure if you phrased it that way or your counsellor did.

Affairs are addictive indeed, the dopamine rush makes them so (sexually and emotionally) but this isn’t some sort of "alien" taking over your WS’s capacity to make the right decision and choose to work on their coping mechanisms to ensure they protect their relationship/marriage and prevent it from happening again.

Even if you would consider it similar to alcohol addiction, people are capable, with therapy and a lot of introspective work, to stop drinking and remain sober.

The reason I have a problem with the way it was phrased is this: it makes an excuse for tolerating bad behaviour (he wants to stop but he just cannot help it, it’s an addiction) and it gives codependent BSes a justification to "save" their WSes even when they don’t stop the affair because they consider it their their duty to remain by their emotionally abusive cheaters in order to support them through their addiction struggles.

Bottom line nobody can guarantee a cheater won’t cheat again, the same way nobody can guarantee that someone who never cheated won’t ever do so. But also it is quite a generalising statement from your counsellor if it was phrased that way, because it wipes off the effort of addicts (in all areas of addiction) who remain determined to not go back there ever again.

For me on dday2 I realised that everything I suspected to be right was right, my WH could not give up his KISA status because he was addicted to the relationship highs (mainly the ego boost). It matter very little to me as at that point I understood one thing: he could sink very low in his self destructive path chasing his dopamine dose however I had one choice left, I could join him on this path and lose whatever little self esteem I had left, or I could choose to free myself and let him sink by himself.

In fact for a very long time I used to tell my friend that I’ve finally let go, he can sink or swim.

I think your new therapist is very wise.

He was bothered by the fact my WH did not end it with the AP but was dumped by her instead. He believes if the AP had not dumped him, he would still be with her because of the addiction. Basically he is saying my WH came back to me because he had no other option, and therefore, possibility of him returning to her is high because of the addiction.

With a bit more context it makes more sense. I think what your IC is trying to say is that unless the WS sees the affair as a bad experience for them too, they have no incentive to do the hard work.

In effect I agree that if the affair ended on "good terms", or if the WS remains in the marriage because the AP rejected them, they don’t easily see it as the destructive swamp the affair was for them but they may remain stuck in "what ifs" and "unrequited love" stage craving that same highs they once had.

It does take a lot of introspection to recognise how sleazy their behaviour was. I remember my WH’s behaviour on dday 1 when he was caught and he was "in luurve" vs him months later when he’d talk to me about how abject his behaviour was and how disgusted he was by it.

The context does help it make more sense.

But inpatient rehab for months? Did he actually say that was the only way?

Well, I'm not going to latch on to any one point you've repeated (edit: repeated to us from your therapist) here.

I think most affairs are about having *more* and that the affair is an addition to the marriage. It's not that the marriage doesn't "satisfy" it just doesn't satisfy the desire for something that is different from the marriage. Remember, WSs want to have their cake and eat it to.

As for the brain chemical process and addiction to the affair, that is also very real but I would question oxytocin as the hormone of interest. The new relationship and general secrecy around an affair releases a lot of cortisol which tanks normal serotonin levels which leads to a general feeling of dissatisfaction rather than contentment in the regular relationship. The new relationship also generally floods the brain with norepinephrin (so the butterflies and anxiety of a new relationship are tied to the cortisol and this chemical) and the interactions with the AP spark huge dopamine hits while helping to settle the cortisol/norepinephrine induced anxiety. Well before an affair gets to sex, it can be addicting on dopamine alone, not also the oxytocin. Consider EAs as an example other than PAs.

In men, higher levels of testosterone (that is often spiking and key in an early relationship) actually blocks oxytocin to some degree. So the "post sex attachment" gained through oxytocin release is usually more generally related to long term attachment as I understand it. Which combines is vasopressin to create the "contented long term bond" you would see in a normal long term monogamous relationship.

That said, your new therapist (psychiatrist?) might know more about neuropsychology than me. I'm an armchair amateur.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 12:15 AM, Saturday, March 23rd]

He was bothered by the fact my WH did not end it with the AP but was dumped by her instead. He believes if the AP had not dumped him, he would still be with her because of the addiction. Basically he is saying my WH came back to me because he had no other option, and therefore, possibility of him returning to her is high because of the addiction. He said oxytocin is more powerful and addictive than morphine.

Nah. I don’t exactly agree with this or that all ws need to go to rehab.

And I don’t even think all ws get addicted.

I think if he is new he is telling you textbook stuff or studies he has read. I personally am not sure I would want a new therapist in a situation of infidelity.

The AP in my situation broke it off with me when he had a dday. I don’t think my husband was my last resort. I was lucky he would take me back. That’s the part that I would fire this guy over. What a hurtful and potentially untrue thing to say to someone.

I experienced the addiction, but there was no part of me that thought the AP was the better choice over my husband. I didn’t even believe that during the affair. I was contemplating starting over in an apartment on my own though. (Keep in mind that the ap lived 1000 miles away, in. A long term marriage- I never made plans to be with him) I was very unhappy and had blamed my marriage for that. So I readily admit I wanted to leave my husband, and he knows that’s the case.

But these thoughts I was having crumbled after very little examination. The person who made me unhappy was me. I mean it when I say my husband is my best friend, the love of my life, and the perfect person for me. I thank God literally at least once a day that I was here with him. I was the idiot that didn’t appreciate him.

Now, I didn’t break NC at 18 months. Or at all. And I am certainly not your husband. I said all this because I think this IC hasn’t had enough cases to start finding nuance to what he studied in school.

I fired my first therapist because she told me not to confess. There are a lot of crappy therapists and marriage counselors.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:10 AM, Saturday, March 23rd]

I think the new therapist made some excellent points.

The fact your cheating spouse contacted the AP should raise the alarm ‼️ I think you are wise for realizing this is a serious blow to the marriage.

If your cheating spouse cannot stop the contact I would venture to say your marriage is in trouble. In fact I remember dday2 (6 months from Dday1) when I realized my H was still in contact with the OW was was STILL thinking he wanted a D to be with the OW who was feeding into his typical midlife crisis affair.

I cut him loose and told him he was free to be w/ her. I couldn’t spend another minute living with his lying cheating indecisiveness.

He pushed me too far. I just had to put myself first and do what was best for me.

Funny how he all of a sudden he’s swearing up and down he doesn’t love the OW blah blah blah.

Read up on the 180. It’s there for a good reason.

And I’m 👍🏻impressed with the new therapist. Made some great points.

I tend to sway from base biological theories that "explain" human behaviors.
One thing that we have that is not present in other beings is free will.
Like… During the 4th July Parade we aren’t really shocked if a horse takes a dump along Main Street. In fact, we might even see a person follow the horses with a shovel, sort of like this was expected and accepted behavior.
Don’t see any guy following the marching band, just in case the bassoon player were to drop his pants and take a dump…

That hormone can also be generated by emotions like pregnancy, parenting, family-responsibility and achievements. It’s present in both males and females… There are feel-good emotions we can get through strenuous exercise. I sort-of think trying to explain a need to go combine your privates outside of the accepted privatecombinationarea to chemistry is a bit… simple.

I would just say that scientific literature with sufficient sample size and a study structure that is not subject to criticism relating to bias, lack of an appropriate control group, insufficient blinding etc. is extremely extremely rare.These are interesting concepts to talk about and worthy of consideration when evaluating the risks to any course of action but TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. I can almost guarantee I have studied as much neurobiology as your therapist and these are not concepts that any responsible professional puts forward as absolutes.They are hypotheses loosely supported by data. Some day we may know more. But to say Oxytocin is more powerful than morphine—if you are going to hang your hat i that-ask to see the paper. Read it. Look at the sample size. See if the finding was replicated etc etc. Behavior is influenced by scores of factors. Our brain chemistry is one of them. Many things in life are subtly addictive. You—as the spouse—are likely a huge attachment figure for your spouse with associated neurochemical implications as well.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 5:27 PM, Saturday, March 23rd]

The fact your cheating spouse contacted the AP should raise the alarm ‼️ I think you are wise for realizing this is a serious blow to the marriage.

I want to be clear that I also think your h breaking no contact should and has raised alarms.

Let me make clear what I find troubling. He is saying your spouse couldn’t help himself because he needs rehab. I just think that’s garbage. You don’t need rehab to break addiction to your AP, all you need to do is go no contact and become more aware of what it was you were seeking in the affair. Find healthy ways to get normal amounts of feel good chemicals to the brain.

I felt like he is giving him an out in some ways. That getting over an affair is so insurmountable. When it’ll truth, It’s not an impossible feat to stay no contact.

Again, I think therapists in general struggle with supporting infidelity. Finding a fit is important. I personally would not see a brand new therapist who hasn’t seen the nuances of his studies.

And I wouldn’t take the “he couldn’t help it route”. And I also don’t think it makes sense in that context that your husband feels you are second choice to his AP. In the context of his assertions, he is choosing his addiction over you. Way different, it’s like his assertions are not moving with one another. People are addicted often to things that aren’t good or better for them

Personally, I think it’s harder to go cold turkey in those first months. So either your husband never stopped talking to her or he was over the worst of the addiction, the withdrawal, and still chose to start it back up. One fits this therapists theories the other doesn’t.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:05 PM, Saturday, March 23rd]

There is a lot of evolving brain science, it is true that some people can become addicted to something like this, but not everybody does.

I think what your counselor maybe actually trying to convey is that if your favorite spouse did get a sufficient high off of this, they are more likely to go back to do it again, particularly if they do not get treatment.

However, they themselves cannot look at your spouse and determine that this applies to them. Even people who have become addicted can break free from an addiction.

There are lots of reasons for cheating, addiction is only one of them.

There are lots of reasons for cheating, addiction is only one of them

.

I know what you mean when you say that. But since there are a lot of eyes on any given post where people are just lurking, I want to make a distinction here.

It may be a reason for relapse or for continuing to cheat. But the initial decisions to do it in the first place were not due to addiction. Addiction is the byproduct of those decisions. But yes I agree he is saying a lot of stuff for not having ever met your husband.

And I feel like he is almost building in an excuse that I worry you will latch on to. I don’t think you should approach this new development with compassion. You have gone that route already.

Unless of course he comes home, you talk and find out what you think is happening isn’t. I see that as a longer shot though, just not out of the realm of possibility.

My W, and many other fWSes, say they felt pleasure in the sex, but they felt the fear and shame of self-hate, too. They realized they were fucking up even while the sex was enjoyable. Hell, sometimes the sex wasn't very enjoyable.

I expect that your IC is right about some WSes. I just doubt that any WS can be a good candidate for R if they feel mainly pleasure from As. If they don't connect with how the A hurt them, I doubt they can R.

My H and I get a daily "One Thing" email from Awesome Marriage...and today's email made me think of this thread.

Today's One Thing was to be intentional to hug, kiss, touch and increase the level of oxytocin in your brains in order to bond closer to your spouse . It goes on to talk about how when we hug, kiss, etc., we release the "love hormone" oxytocin, which acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain. When we touch, the levels of oxytocin increase and bonding increases. So our One Thing was to increase the levels of oxytocin in each of our brains by intentionally hugging, kissing, etc.

The person who started this website is a Christian Counselor who counsels couples, but I am not sure if he is an IC. I am not able to find where oxytocin plays a particular part in one thing or another, but maybe couples can get a high from oxytocin too?

I DO know that at first...it physically HURT for my H to touch me...which was a weird feeling. But I had read somewhere that it was important to lean into touching, kissing, hugging, even if that was not the feeling at the moment. It DID feel better over time and this MIGHT be why. It has been a really long time though since I explored that part so I can't even remember the sources I read. Hopefully it is in The Healing Library...they had some awesome articles that really HELPED me !

My spouse and I both found there was something to the idea of addiction to the high. In our recovery, we found the idea of limerance and a limerant affair very descriptive of his experience. He was self/medicating, just not with drugs or alcohol.

Giving him that framework helped him snap back to himself; he resisted NC at first, but when he understood it like an addiction, he agreed to NC—and within weeks he was better able to think clearly.

My experience suggests that he needed to get his head clear, but once he did, he was able to chose to do tge work, and a year later, is starting to grow his emotional intelligence in ways that make me more hopeful he will have the tools to deal with our issues instead of try to escape them.

Did brain chemistry cause the affair? Nope. Was it part of why he became so different during it? Yes. Did it explain his initial resistance to NC? Yep. Does knowing all this help me cope? Hell yes. Now those crazy man love texts sound like what they were—not a mature, complicated love that lasts, but rather a need to chase a high and get s fix to drown out the self-loathing and misery that came from being unable to process his feelings.