SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

hikingout,

You said ;

When you are a betrayed woman, we have been dealing with this a lot longer. Sure women cheated throughout history but not at the rates of men.

Do you have anything to back this up? Without saying it outright you are indeed confirming the bias that some of the males in this thread have voiced. That is that males have been on the giving end of infidelity a lot longer than they have been on the receiving end.

Regards.

@emergent: In short, I would say a partial yes to all of your questions. If you didn't feel safe in your friendships, scratch that, *associations*, then you don't feel safe in your relationships, to be more specific...

There is probably more but that is what I have for now.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:13 PM, Tuesday, April 16th]

@hikingout

The trust thing sticks in your craw a bit. That is a discussion I think where you and I clashed.

My thinking on this has evolved slightly to a) every affair is different and b) ultimately what conclusion someone and their BS came to, is between them I suppose. It is extremely difficult for me to wrap my head on all that was risked by the WP taking chances by having the affair and yet there supposedly being "no trust" between her and AP, but it is what it is. Maybe if there truly is a lack of trust towards the AP, that may make it even worse to take--the relationship was thrown away then for "nothing" then it seems. That must have been how little it meant to the WP.

But saying as advice on SI "s/he didn't trust the OP", well that in most instances is very destructive from my vantage. I really believe that a BS had better assume that their WS DID trust the AP, until they (the BS that is) become convinced that they (the WS that is) had not.

RE different kinds of trust in romantic encounters, I had, after becoming single, at least one ONS where I did not know her last name. How must trust was there? No relationship was risked as we were both single. She still trusted me with her body and physical safety for that night (and bits and pieces of her life story told in the bar beforehand) but not knowledge of her identity.

But I would wager that a lot of people do indeed trust their APs. Some of them become real relationships after DDay but crash and burn. It's hard to stay with someone whom your kids hate say. Some of them become multiyear marriages despite of it all, in some instances lasting rest-of-life.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:44 AM, Wednesday, April 17th]

I have been working thru EMDR, and alongside my parent’s divorce and the affair is that I felt rejected by my peers as a kid and even a young man, it was that impactful to me. Certainly that included my female peers, and when my wife and I fell in love there was a sense that my love with her resolved that, that I felt validated there. I know, I know, I’m not supposed to look to her, but 23 year old me didn’t know that and it just naturally felt that way. The betrayal re-exposes that and forces me to either resolve inside myself or look for a new person to do it for me.

I get that feeling 100% InkHulk. It's as if 'These other people may not make me feel welcome, but now I can shake that dust from their villages off me and move on, as I now found my person.'

Thank you for your kind words, I am glad you found the rest of my post helpful as well.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:11 PM, Tuesday, April 16th]

Sorry if I don't quite address the exact turn this thread has taken, but I will go back to the "Not Just Friends" collected information.

It does suggest that when the female partner cheats in a heterosexual relationship, that it is more likely to fail than if the man cheats.

At one point when reading through this information my wife lamented how "Unfair" it was that society punished women more for their infidelity. I had a hard time responding to the audacity of this since the statistics are irrelevant to our experience, and that I was the betrayed partner here.

In terms of "why" is it that a marriage is less likely to end if the man cheat than if the woman cheats, I think some of it is what is discussed in this thread, but I actually think the majority of the answer is a little more pragmatic.

Older men have a better time on the divorce market than older women. The balance of "am I better off with my WS or on the open market" is the key question. I think, on average, a man will have a better time on the open market than a woman later in life which is when infidelity tends to happen. The effective dating pool for a man in his 40s or 50s is just way better than the effective dating pool for a woman in her 40s or 50s.

emergent8

Are you saying that the cheating/rejection from your ex brought forward for you some of the same feelings of trauma/shame/internalized beliefs about inadequacy you may have experienced growing up when you were rejected by social peers. If so, that makes a lot of sense.

And because you believe you needed to make some internal changes in order to be popular/gain peer acceptance, it follows (in your brain) that the A must ALSO be about you to some extent? Is that what you're saying?

I think this is pretty common. I know my experience included a lot of this kind of thought process..

But saying as advice on SI "s/he didn't trust the OP", well that in most instances is very destructive from my vantage

You told me a little in how/why you post. I will share something here that might help you understand how I post.

I don’t give people advice that their ws did or did not do things (such as trust) but I will comment sometimes if it matches or contrasts with my own experience. I do not know anyone’s ws on here- and as you said, all affairs can be different. I am not advising a bs believe anything or even what their action should be. In that post, all I was saying is it’s possible that someone can have an affair and not really weigh the idea of trust. I am sure some people do feel they trust the ap, but I don’t feel that an affair always requires trust.

A good example- was I to assume he would stop having sex with his wife? No, I wouldn’t have believed that had it been presented. I know he is capable of lying, I wasn’t his first affair or even his second or third. Most of what happens between a ws’s ears is a game of fantasyland.

In an affair, little is weighed or examined. To do so would probably stop the fantasy the person is trying to have in the affair. A lot of ws have no idea what will happen past the moment we are in. It’s why most ws display narcissistic tendencies, they get engulfed in themselves. You would be very surprised as to how little I truly considered the ap. I didn’t see it until hindsight.

Maybe if there truly is a lack of trust towards the AP, that may make it even worse to take--the relationship was thrown away then for "nothing" then it seems. That must have been how little it meant to the WP.

I read a small percentage of AP’s ever get married, and their success rates are very low in those marriages. I don’t know, but to me it makes sense because I don’t think the vast majority of affairs are love but instead an unhealthy attachment.

I don’t think most affairs turn out to be meaningful to the ws, even if at the time of the affair they are engulfed in it. Why?

Because the narratives about the person and what is happening is almost always somewhat made up. For me, it was a matter of getting attention, making the AP seem better than he was while minimizing my husband. Now mind you, little of that is conscious. All you are really doing is creating a narrative that keeps making what you are doing okay. It’s justification after justification.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:53 AM, Wednesday, April 17th]

Do you have anything to back this up? Without saying it outright you are indeed confirming the bias that some of the males in this thread have voiced. That is that males have been on the giving end of infidelity a lot longer than they have been on the receiving end.

Not really, I know I have read this in places but most of that reading is years old now, I don’t remember exactly where I have seen it.

I do believe women have always cheated, just not at the rates you see today. Again, women were very dependent in the past. That’s a big deterrent.

In the scheme of things though, people arrive at this forum because often it’s the first time it’s happening to them. I don’t think anyone knows how to handle it. Someone else’s experience doesn’t usually even make sense until you have it happen to you and then you wonder how that person was standing up. My point in adding the historical stuff honestly was to just make the point of where our programming comes from.

But yes I think working outside the home has created new opportunities. But I also think it’s possible that we will never know because there is such a shroud of shame there that would be harder to understand that historical data any more than we understand current data.

In terms of "why" is it that a marriage is less likely to end if the man cheat than if the woman cheats, I think some of it is what is discussed in this thread, but I actually think the majority of the answer is a little more pragmatic.

Older men have a better time on the divorce market than older women. The balance of "am I better off with my WS or on the open market" is the key question. I think, on average, a man will have a better time on the open market than a woman later in life which is when infidelity tends to happen. The effective dating pool for a man in his 40s or 50s is just way better than the effective dating pool for a woman in her 40s or 50s.

I have heard this before, but I don’t agree. I usually do agree with things you say.

I believe the reason more of those marriages end have to do with two major things:

There is an expectation on women to be the virtuous ones and some men truly feel she is damaged goods.

But the most frequent reason I believe is because women have exit affairs way more often than men. Men do leave their wives sometimes for the ap, but they are more often cake eaters and better at compartmentalizing.

The effective dating pool for a man in his 40s or 50s is just way better than the effective dating pool for a woman in her 40s or 50s

Only if he’s rich. I don’t think gals are standing in lines for broke ass old guys.

I have to admit that I feel shame because of the affairs. I always thought that I’d be gone in a heartbeat if anyone ever cheated on me, but twenty years of intertwined finances and children led me to reconsider. I’m glad I’ve stayed because it’s given me six years, so far, with me and my children all under one roof 24/7, but I do feel shame that I didn’t stay true to my younger self and immediately leave.

Maybe I'm too biased by my personal assessment of my chances in the dating pool.

I think any cheater is "damaged goods" when you weigh out the options, but I would agree there is a higher societal expectation that a man would cheat than a woman. I just don't know how much that plays into failure rates after infidelity. I don't know how much women feel pressured to just accept that men are pigs. Even if this *is* the case, to some degree it plays into my statement. Venturing into the dating pool means you are still picking amongst pigs (within this mental mode/framing of expectations).

I could certainly buy women having more exit affairs than men contributing to the higher failure rate post infidelity. I think that sort of makes some amount of sense anecdotally that women are more emotionally driven in their A and men are more driven by sex (on average, doesn't speak to any specific A).

Agree, it’s hard to know.

I just know for me, when my husband cheated I was at my breaking point. The whole thing seemed like an unsalvagable dumpster fire. Divorce was on my mind for sure- not really just because of his cheating, obviously he showed me grace and I wanted to do the same. Moreso it just seemed hopeless and over.

Anyway, I never once considered the dating pool in my weighing of it. I wasn’t interested in getting married again (and probably still would t be of something happened to him) and maybe I am delusional but I think there is someone for everyone and I could find dates if I wanted them. I don’t think I will ever place my happiness in the hands of someone else again, so my feelings about dating are pretty apathetic.

In weighing my options, the things I believe helped me hold on was simply I didn’t want to give up the history we had together. No one will ever love my kids as much as I do besides him. No one will bring up stories of them growing up. He knows me like no one ever will because he watched me change from a 23 year old woman to the woman I am now at circling 50. I have watched him evolve too. Getting along has never been hard for us and we have shared sensibilities. We had a happy first twenty years and that rich shared experience made me hang in. I will rattle around with the old fart until one of us passes and having acceptance over that is the thing that probably made me settle in the most. He is a good man and I love him. And I trust him as much as I would someone else.

But I really try and not make fear based decisions when I can avoid it, so I just wasn’t one to worry about who was next. I was too tired for that. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t or shouldn’t factor into the decisions of others.

The betrayal re-exposes that and forces me to either resolve inside myself or look for a new person to do it for me.

The problem is that external validation is a temporary fix at best. BTDT.

*****

We met a guy at a g2g some years ago, movie star handsome, very smart, broadly and deeply educated, grew up in comfort, apparently very confident, and very nice. I usually wish I looked like Paul Newman, but I think I'd be even happier if I looked like this guy. He was accompanied by a very attractive woman - he was divorced from his very nasty WS.

Sitting around a table chatting, he said he never felt confident with women.

The world is as it is. We differ from one another in how we respond to the world - and people from different places and times vary in their responses. We behave in patterns, but there are wide variations between and within those patterns.

*****

We have a lot of discussion about gender differences. My problems with those discussions include:

1) we have no accurate, reliable, extrapolatable(?)numbers;

2) if we did have good numbers, even small percentages translate to large populations;

3) if we had good numbers, we don't know the source(s) of the differences, and sometimes the difference between innate and programmed/conditioned behavior is significant.

4) the world changes pretty rapidly, and what is so now will not be so forever - but we can't predict what will change, how it will change, or when it will change.

That's why I prefer sharing experiences to giving advice and why I prefer talking about individuals to trying to create general rules (well, other than wishing for experiences and focusing on individuals and eschewing rules).

*****

I don't know for a fact that the longer life expectancy for women of my cohort gives me an advantage in the dating pool, but I definitely considered it in my D/R decision. It made D look better to me than it might have if the demographics were reversed.

As I've written, I think BSes should consider all options before choosing between D & R, and I think BSes shouldn't make a choice until they see all their options as leading to a good life.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:17 PM, Wednesday, April 17th]

I think this is pretty common. I know my experience included a lot of this kind of thought process..

Adolfo - I have no doubt. I wasn't disagreeing with WBFA (it's his feelings, how could I), I just wanted to make sure I understood what he was trying to say as that wasn't totally clear (to me) based on the post I was paraphrasing.

That's why I prefer sharing experiences to giving advice and why I prefer talking about individuals to trying to create general rules

I understand what you mean. If I am giving advice to an individual I try hard to remember that everyone is different and everyone’s affair is different, with some possible shared experiences mixed in.

However, I also enjoy more philosophical discussion of the bigger picture. I don’t necessarily think it’s advice I come here for, rather it reinforces my learning to come here and brush up from time to time. Sometimes it’s just nice to pose some different theories and see what you get back from others.

I am close to being back on a break. I got a little invested in a few members here again and have been coming mostly to check in on them. Getting ready to start my new job so my free time is about to take a major hit.

emergent8

Adolfo - I have no doubt. I wasn't disagreeing with WBFA (it's his feelings, how could I), I just wanted to make sure I understood what he was trying to say as that wasn't totally clear (to me) based on the post I was paraphrasing.

I understand.. I was just trying to reassure others with similar experience that they're not alone.

What I found interesting was the real life ramifications versus what is typically broadcast in movies, books and tv. There, the women are almost universally justified in cheating (I have talked about this from various lifetime movies) and when the men realize how much they helped in creating the situation, the couple reconcile and live happily ever after. In this situation again as portrayed in media, the women rally around the WW and help them.

Our reality was quite different. My EX became chum for every guy who had any inclination to cheat on their wives, most who were my WW friends. The wives sniffed this out, and she while I wouldn’t say was shunned, certainly wasn’t top of any wives lists with a few exceptions of someone they wanted at a barbecue where there was drinking going on. To my Ex’s credit she didn’t invite this attention, but it happened anyway.

I was extremely concerned about my perception of being the weak guy who wasn’t taking care of business, but my reality was different. Most(not all) guys rallied around me and the women were sympathetic. So much so that some of my Ex’s very best divorced friends were all over me not caring about her feelings whatsoever.

I think society has a vision of what will or should happen, but the variables in real life leads to lots of different outcomes.

But in almost every case, the infidelity still is like a bomb blowing everything up. But each situation dictates where the body parts fall out

In an affair, little is weighed or examined.

Again, women were very dependent in the past. That’s a big deterrent.

How is anything a big deterrent if it is little weighted or examined?

I say this believing these decisions to have an A are in fact weighted as the second comment suggests. Perhaps not outwardly as a calculus function or a plus or minus list but the concept of loss given default is something we all do. Is what I have worth risking its loss? IMO, on some level a value is assigned by a WS to the BS (or if one prefers, the relationship with the BS).

@Never2late:

How is anything a big deterrent if it is little weighted or examined?

In my opinion the two ideas you quote do not necessarily contradict each other. The deterrent may still be there but it isn't subject to purely intellectual "pros vs. cons" calculation.

To me, the key factor is fear - until fairly recently women stood to lose more than men, should their affair have been exposed. It was not only the risk of losing their material stability after divorce, but also the risk of unplanned/unwanted pregnancy and everything else that ensued. They may have been simply more afraid to cheat.