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Thank you all for the insight. It has helped confirmed my feelings and validates me being pissed off at the moment. We had a charged conversation last night about all of this. Told her I still don't know the story and it frustrating as fuck. And that every time I try to find out HER side of things we hit a stone wall and it turns to her previous un-fulfillments and marriage issues. She has not owned her own shit. And protecting herself by expressing "You can't handle it!" Dammit, I have had to learn to feed myself, calm myself, and get my ass motivated all over again. And I can't handle the how's, the when's, and the where's? What her "end-game" was. She's self protecting herself, and it's BS.

We have MC today and this is going to be front and center. And if she gets protection from the counselor, she's getting fired asap!

Hell yeah.

And protecting herself by expressing "You can't handle it!"

I find that condescending AF. Don't tell ME what I can handle. I'll tell YOU.

Your MC should tell her that she needs to answer every single question that you ask, and should tell you that you'd better be sure you want the answer before you ask. THAT'S the correct stance. If MC doesn't agree, also grounds for firing.

Your WW still does not get it. And you should not have to have these conversations where you have to pry details of the A from her. To answer her own question: Yes, this time she is the bad guy. Get out of you self pity, geez!

This is not rocket science. The reason you exchange wedding vows is the assurance that no matter the status of your M, (happy, sad, ignored, detached, unloved, disconnected) you can trust that your partner will be faithful. Period. There is no excuse or justification for cheating. On your wedding day your WW did not look you in the eye and vow to be faithful, unless of course she felt detached.

This is her character flaw to work on and convince you she can be trusted. There is no perfect M or perfect spouse. Every M develops its resentments, but cheating is never justified. If she willingly works hard on her character flaw that allowed her to excuse her lying and cheating, then you can discuss working on building a better M. But not while she remains defensive and excuses her betrayal. Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:04 PM, Wednesday, May 8th]

Love the anger, that is a good sign. Keep it under control, lashing out at her isn’t beneficial to you. But use it as a motivator and a tool for your own ends. One thing we say around here a lot is you have to be willing to walk away. Either way, whether it is for your own freedom and sanity or whether it’s to shake her out of her own fuckery. Cheating is a deal breaker, in the most literal sense of the phrase. She needs to know you are a flight risk.

My WW told me almost the exact same thing of "you can’t handle it" before DDAY 2. That was one of the key moments, because obviously it was everything i suspected. Just as she is telling you so much by not telling you anything. It is everything that you fear, probably more. Her motivation is selfish and all about protecting herself. When WW told me that, I knew I was done. It confirmed everything I was suspecting and I checked out. I’m in R now, but it wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t been ready to end our marriage. Truth is, just like yours, my marriage as I knew it was dead. Yours is too. I just had to see it.

Now, what are you going to do? You know. You don’t need anything else from her to make a decision on leaving. Now you should shift your focus on what will it take for you to stay. My advice: Keep doing what you’re doing and you will keep getting same results and be miserable.

Like I said before, you can’t control her, you can’t make her do anything. Keep the status quo and expect the same. I think you should make your exit plan. Withdrawal and stop engaging her as your wife. She has to earn that back. Right now, she is another man’s ex lover not your wife. If she doesn’t want to do what it takes to be your wife again, then nothing will change.

"This is not rocket science. The reason you exchange wedding vows is the assurance that no matter the status of your M, (happy, sad, ignored, detached, unloved, disconnected) you can trust that your partner will be faithful. Period. There is no excuse or justification for cheating. On your wedding day your WW did not look you in the eye and vow to be faithful, unless of course she felt detached"

^^ this!

I can't like HellIsNotHalfFull's post enough. Print that out and staple it to your forehead. It is spot on.

Sometimes a WS needs to feel the full consequences of their actions in order to wake the heck up and start doing what it takes to save their marriage. Sometimes they'll remain guarded anyway and choose to D. Either way, whether she comes around or not, the sooner you start taking the steps to get out of this dysfunction - to get out of infidelity, the sooner you'll start feeling better.

So my WW and I are about 3 weeks out from DDay. I gave her an opportunity to explain her feelings at the moment. And it went into past conflicts and perceived injustices by me to her.

Relationship history rewriting aside (which this most likely is), this is at best blame shifting. I'm not sure what she expected to get out of this conversation. Separating the affair and her actions in it from your relationship issues is key if you are going to R. It's not easy. This early on, she is almost certainly still buying her own bullshit. This is perhaps the hardest thing to unravel when dealing with cheaters. They are totally full of shit. It's to the point that even alleged professionals aren't very careful when listening to the words of a proven liar and deceiver soon after the affair is uncovered. They almost always deceive themselves first. This early on, it is not useful to know her alleged motivations, though figuring out the deeper why is something that she will need to do. First you need to treat the affair.

For background information, I have had a hard time sticking up for myself - especially my business partners who are also my Father and Brother. We recently moved our business to a new enterprise. Our dream gig and a very lucrative location and established clientele. Well the first year (first year at the new business). I fell into the same routine where I would work 60 to 70 hour weeks and was getting compensated the same as my brother. My brother shows up about 20 to 30 hours a week. I am "the" guy with the staff and the customers. It is stressful, I did take on that responsibility by myself. I waited until we had a full year under us so I could evaluate the business's financial situation. Then I asserted my position for a much larger compensation package.

My wife told me tonight she detached from me emotionally in January, the same time I received my new package. Saying I didn't keep my promise to stick up for myself, and I took too long to do so.

Look at this bit of pretzel logic by itself. She was so mad at you for finally standing up for yourself she detached. What? How does that make sense. It doesn't. It's bullshit.

Another underlying conflict is house chores. I have always felt I did the brunt of the labor. A typical day for me would be to drop of one of our 3 sons and head to work. I would frantically get 8 hours of work done in 5 hours so I could pick up our 2 younger sons, and sometimes all 3. It would then be followed with going to the grocery store or an errand, and then some laundry or cleaning before I prepped and cooked dinner. Some nights I would hit the "cycle", purchase, prep, cook, and clean-up dinner. There are times I would rush in sweaty after cutting the grass or doing yard work to prep dinner and get it cooking while finishing up the task and hitting the shower before our meal. Sometimes I didn't even get help setting the damn table or pouring the dinner beverages! There'd also be nights were I would hastily eat, and then return to work for a few more hours. I felt like everyday I was giving everything I had to my family and my business. Now my wife does do tasks as well, and she would take the morning ritual of getting them ready for school. Maybe the resentment on this topic is we didn't thank each other enough, or express the hard work in many ways. And to be honest, I would be sexually or physically frustrated that I would go above and beyond to hopefully "get lucky." There were many nights I would have to beg for intimacy.

These are mostly relationship problem and have little to do with re-establishing safety and trust. Backburner issues if you ask me. That said, it's great if she is picking up some slack.

Sex should not be transactional. You don't earn good boy points and cash them in for sex with your wife. I'm not sure if anyone has recommended No More Mr. Nice Guy to you, but it might apply. This attitude is not a backburner issue and will have to do with how you deal with the A and think about R.

Her bringing up these conflicts felt like she was using it to validate her detachment from me and beginning a courting phase with her future AP. I listened and stuck up for myself. Some of it was small stuff, and things I never knew bothered her. And I asked her if it was that bad why didn't she ask for counselling or give me an ultimatum.

It wasn't that bad. Your wife is more likely than not a run of the mill cake eating cheater. It's not that what you had was bad. She just wanted more. Coming to grips with her blatant selfishness in this regard will be a challenge for her. This line of thinking lies almost entirely in the "unmet needs" or other "cheating only happens in bad relationships" framework. That's just not true. Your marriage sounds like it is at worst average, and likely you are a better husband than average if we take your word for it.

We are trying to work on a new relationship heading toward R. But, am I right to think she is still lying to herself what the more underlying issues were. My thoughts were being on the foothills of menopause and bored by our crazy but comfortable schedule. But she brings this shit up every time we try to talk about past issues.

Wrong order. Re-establish trust and safety first. Work on the relationship issues second.

Am I crazy, is she crazy, or both? I know I have a fair amount of the blame for our relationship before the A. But I ended the night saying - "This is still not an excuse for what you did." Her retort was "I know, I am the bad guy like always." Is she still in the fog? Just mad and confused right now. I told her from the beginning that I will not take a single percentage of fault for her A.

You are not crazy. You are right that you are responsible for your half the relationship problems. "I am the bad guy like always" is catastrophizing. Usually an excuse to not improve. You have to separate, as much as possible, the affair from whether or not she ends up the "bad guy" in your other fights. "You aren't always the bad guy, but you are the person that cheated and I'm the person that got cheated on."

So like you said, none of your pre-A problem are appropriate excuses for her actions. So having these surface level motivations, and if you ask me are backdated bullshit rationalizations for the A isn't going to help you much.

I don't know if I've added much to this thread, but your wife is just still very full of shit.

My wife told me tonight she detached from me emotionally in January, the same time I received my new package. Saying I didn't keep my promise to stick up for myself, and I took too long to do so.

Break it down in the most simple terms. For arguments sake, let's state as fact that you did not stick up for yourself, and lost your wife's respect. Let's also state that she did detach for this reason.

Okay.....she is now a married woman who has emotionally detached from her husband. Her moral code was to then cheat, in secrecy, on her husband. THAT IS HER CHARACTER. This is why the infidelity and the marital issues can not be intertwined. They really are unrelated(as much as they can be in a married relationship) to one another.

If I could use another example---let's say that infidelity did not occur in your household. But you have HUGE anger issues, and now, when your wife does something wrong in the marriage(in your mind), you go an an abusive destruction spree---thrown objects, broken doors, shattered glass. Your wife is now traumatized by your actions, and you try to explain to her that you wouldn't have gone into these rages if she didn't drive you to do so.

NOW, she wants you to get professional help to address your anger issues. But your stance is that the anger issues are not a you issue, but a marriage issue. Your character is not the issue at hand here. It's the state of the marriage, which she has brought to a level where you are justified to act like you have.

Pretty fair comparison, don't you think? NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO IMPROVE THE MARRIAGE UNTIL THE CHARACTER ISSUES ARE RESOLVED....OR AT LEAST, BEING ADDRESSED. Your wife is still too wayward to see this. And you are going to have to learn that you won't be able to make her see it, either. You can't control her; you can only control yourself. And believe it or not, the more that you try to make her see her wrong ways, the more damage you are causing yourself....and the marriage. There is a saying that I like to recommend when in your situation--DEAL WITH THE PERSON WHO IS STANDING IN FRONT OF YOU TODAY. Not the 'old' wife that you *know* is in there--but the one who not only cheated on you, also won't hold herself accountable.

Once you start extracting yourself from this mess, things will start to look much clearer for you.

Thank you all for the advice and wisdom. Last night my WW and I finally had a productive conversation about the A. She is keeping NC, and she has confessed that she feels conflicted by having to abruptly end the relationship. I understand that she is going through the fog and will give her time to make her choice. The other bomb that was dropped was her explaining that when she is doing her dig dive on what caused her do what she did - it may not result in R. I was not a Saint by any means during the 1st half of our marriage and she has a lot of resentments. I feel the last 10 years I have matured and not that stupid, ignorant kid when we were first married. This is causing a lot more fear and doubt with everything else I am feeling and pushing through. Any thoughts?

The other bomb that was dropped was her explaining that when she is doing her dig dive on what caused her do what she did - it may not result in R. I was not a Saint by any means during the 1st half of our marriage and she has a lot of resentments.

More blame shifting here. Her why’s of her own infidelity are solely and completely about her. Full stop.

Now regarding R, the marriage very well may not survive. The ONLY way a marriage can survive, with or without betrayal, is if BOTH partners want it. She may not want it. You might not want it. The marriage might end, and that is ok.

You as a human being are more than your marriage. You are above it and more important than it. It would be far better to end a marriage with an unrepentant betrayer than continue on in the misery of it out of fear. There are many stories here of the misery that comes from that situation. I recommend you read them and learn a proper fear of that.

The other bomb that was dropped was her explaining that when she is doing her dig dive on what caused her do what she did - it may not result in R. I was not a Saint by any means during the 1st half of our marriage and she has a lot of resentments.

So be it. See that for what it is. That is an attempt to influence you to let go of requesting she do the bare minimum to save the marriage. Its a plea to rug sweep and deflecting the blame of the destruction of her actions on you all wrapped up in one. She is so wrapped up in her brokenness that she just wants to blame others for what she did. You can't R with her unless she moves past that.

Brother, this is going to sound a bit harsh, and I am going to pad it a bit on the delivery, but it is important that, despite how it may make you feel, that you hear this message:

*Your wife is incredibly manipulative.

*She knows you are all talk.

*She knows you want reconciliation.

*She knows she can leverage that want into favorable conditions.

Until she truly believes there will be no reconciliation without 100% acquiescence to your reasonable (please note this adjective) requirements, she will likely continue her fuckery. Or it is entirely possible that even if you move towards divorce, it won't change.

The roots of all of this is clear:

She does NOT respect you.

Until that respect is built, nothing will change.

You cannot build that respect without learning to tell her "no" to the fuckery.

In other words, find your stones, brother. Without them, I can PROMISE you that you will only find more pain than you are already experiencing.

So basically she’s turned it totally around on you...

It’s YOUR fault and YOUR failures that "made" her need to have an affair.
She’s "sacrificing" the OM and her possibility for eternal happiness and settling for you, but she’s not 100% convinced it’s the right choice.
You better make changes or else... Or else what? She have another affair?
If you dare stray from HER path and if you don’t change then she’s not reconciling...

Friend – is there ANYONE on this site suggesting the path you are on is sustainable?

In my first post on your situation I gave you the following advice:

Tell your wife she’s free to go be with OM.
Tell her that if you are so impossible, unimaginative, unatentive, uninteresting or whatever made her decide she had to go find happiness with another man then that’ fine. It’s not what you wanted, now how you envisioned your life, but it beats being there because she feels she has no options. You love her too much to want to hold back on her happiness and to keep her chained. You sett her free. Only... not as your wife.
Tell her that you absolve her of any expectations you could expect as her husband. Ask that she be considerate and maybe not date OM too blatantly and definitely keep him out of the house. But she can go be with him, spend time with him, sleep over... whatever. You no longer have any expectations of her as your wife.
This is not what you want, but it beats sharing her or having to experience that she wants to be elsewhere.
Let her know that there is a fair process to dissolve a marriage. You won’t make it harder than it need be. It will definitely impact your lives, and the lives of the kids, but it beats having them live in what is essentially a gilded prison. The kids or finances are NOT a valid or good reason to remain married. Neither were there when you committed to each other.
Tell her that if this is not what she wants she needs to let you know very clearly that she wants this marriage. She also needs to know there are some requirements she needs to meet: Total accountability, a verifiable truth, a commitment to IC and later on MC (to name a few).

The goal of the above is NOT to push her to OM. In fact – IF this was such a great relationship and you are such a loser in her eyes then why is she still with you? Why hasn’t Prince Charming galloped away with her on his white charger? Why isn’t she basking in the freedom that outing the affair offers?

Despite numerous requests you haven’t shared with us if OM is married. I’m guessing he is, and the reason he hasn’t come for his bride is simply because he has no intention of. This is just a run-of-the-mill, standard affair. A fantasy and some tail.

IMHO you have some options, and I fear you will take the worst one. That’s where the two of you will argue and be glum and all that, but eventually settle back into some quasimarriage. IF there is an improvement then one day your wife will be telling you "it’s SO GREAT I had the affair because the changes you made since then are so great for our marriage. Thank God for OM! You should send him a good bottle of Whiskey and a Thank You note".

I strongly suggest you tell your wife that you believe her. You believe that she has lost all respect for you, all belief in you and all positive emotions for you. This doesn’t mean you accept the blame for the affair. That will always be 100% on her. She COULD have done the honorable thing and filed, yet she didn’t. Then tell her you love her too much to hold her back. She’s free to do whatever she wants, but YOU are getting out of infidelity.

The OM is married - and I have been on the fence of alerting his BS. We are both doing IC and MC. MC we are 2 sessions in, IC for me 3 sessions, and IC for her 2 sessions. I told my therapist I was thinking of a red line of May 31st - and if shit doesn't change I'm going to file and serve her. It'll be hard - we reside in Illinois and it's a "no fault" state, my attorney told me I have to remain in the house for the great majority of the time for a more favorable maintenance and child support package. My kids will get what they need and will be taken care of - but I don't want to have to give her one more cent to piss away if this goes sideways.

Tell OBS. She deserves to know. I could write an essay on why, but bottom line it’s the right thing to do. Your WW and AP have already made a decision about her marriage without her agency. Do the right thing, give OBS her agency and tell her all you know. Not telling her means you are doing the same. You are making a choice for her that you have no right. It’s not your fault that you’re in this, but now you have the responsibility. It’ll piss your WW off, but that’s also a first step into standing up for yourself and to her.

You are still in shock, and that's normal. You are getting your footing back at the moment.

Thank you all for the advice and wisdom. Last night my WW and I finally had a productive conversation about the A. She is keeping NC, and she has confessed that she feels conflicted by having to abruptly end the relationship. I understand that she is going through the fog and will give her time to make her choice. The other bomb that was dropped was her explaining that when she is doing her dig dive on what caused her do what she did - it may not result in R. I was not a Saint by any means during the 1st half of our marriage and she has a lot of resentments. I feel the last 10 years I have matured and not that stupid, ignorant kid when we were first married. This is causing a lot more fear and doubt with everything else I am feeling and pushing through. Any thoughts?

This is the kind of not-so-subtle language of someone not even close to taking responsibility. Nothing caused her to choose to have an affair. She chose to have an affair willingly. The work for a wayward is not figuring out the external motivations used to rationalize the thought process. It's figuring out the thought process they used to rationalize and choose to have the affair, and be able to recognize and interrupt that thought process to not be a repeat offender.

I'm not saying that she wasn't having an exit affair (it's possible) or whether or not she is serious about divorcing you (also possible). You ought to get *very* comfortable with the thought of divorce. It's your ripcord, not hers. I mean, she can divorce too, obviously. However, the only way that you'll be able to R is if you are ready and willing to D.

The OM is married - and I have been on the fence of alerting his BS. We are both doing IC and MC. MC we are 2 sessions in, IC for me 3 sessions, and IC for her 2 sessions. I told my therapist I was thinking of a red line of May 31st - and if shit doesn't change I'm going to file and serve her. It'll be hard - we reside in Illinois and it's a "no fault" state, my attorney told me I have to remain in the house for the great majority of the time for a more favorable maintenance and child support package. My kids will get what they need and will be taken care of - but I don't want to have to give her one more cent to piss away if this goes sideways.

I highly recommend telling OBS. I have revealed several affairs to the BS. Every single one was the right decision and has had a long term positive impact.

It sort of sounds like you are ready to D with the red line, but I will tell you from experience that these deadlines and dates are all much softer than we intend them to be. You might be much stronger than me and stick to your guns on this. But I know what it's like to be in that position, and it's just severely painful and tough. Progress is also slow. 2-5 years we say around here. 3 weeks, especially these early three weeks, I don't know how much real change you can expect.

Things are not going to go sideways. They are already sideways. Extremely sideways. The shit has already hit the fan and you are figuring out what to do about it. Take it at whatever pace you are able to. Give yourself some grace because you have had your still beating heart cut out of your chest.

I think maybe some folks have already said it, but please take care of yourself and your health. It's another hard thing to do shortly after DDay, but try to eat right, avoid alcohol, exercise, and sleep. These are things you can control on your own and will help no matter what.

So I have started the 180 with my WW - and I will show resolve tomorrow during Mother's Day. I am not going to act as the "Disney Dad". I will turn my attention to the kids for the day and stay away so she cannot engage. I'm not faking it anymore and I've come to the acceptance that it happened and that I am not at fault whatsoever. It was her sense of entitlement, self-centerdness, her lack of respect to the family and I, and her inability to look inward to see how she manufactured the justifications and reasoning to seek fulfillment outside of our marriage. If she asks what's up. I will reply that I am angry that you have put my boys in danger, that you have effectively now ruined our lives, and put into jeopardy everything that we held dear in our lives. Family and friendships are strained, life is dysfunctional, and I am not okay with playing pretend.

Time to move on with or without her. Time to kick some ass.

Sounds like you are finding some anger and standing up for yourself. Well done.

Just a reminder that using that anger as a weapon against her is not in your best interest. You don’t want to do anything that could even come close to being misconstrued as domestic violence, such as screaming at her or name calling. 180, detach from her. Use the anger to fuel that, it’s not going to be easy to be indifferent to the woman that a month ago you thought was your loving wife. The opposite of love is not hate, its indifference.

I have yet to raise my voice over a conversational level since I came home after DDay - and it's driving her nuts.