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This is probably going to be a ramble and maybe not very coherant, but I just don't know what to think about it all.

WH is not a drinker (a couple reasons for that), but he had some drinks last Monday. He gets a bit silly when he drinks. We were having family night (playing Talisman, great fun if anyone wants to try it, love it and hate it at the same time) and he started giving me small compliments, like "You're beautiful", "Your so pretty", and I thought he should drink more often, haha

He got really touchy feely too and at one point, when the kids and I were disagreeing about something (nothing major, just in good fun), WH said he agreed with me because "she lets me touch her boobies". That was pretty inappropriate in front of our kids, but they just laughed it off and rolled their eyes.

When I was ready to go to bed I first went to the bathroom. While I was in there, WH tried to get in, jiggling the door. I said I was going pee and he kept trying to get in, pretty aggressively. When I finally came out, he hugged me and started talking. He was very drunk and said that he knew his inhibitians were down and he wanted to tell me things.

We stood there for maybe 2 hours (not kidding!) and he repeatedly told me he was sorry about what he had done. That his only thought was of me and how to make me happy. that he didn't care about anyone else, including the kids And that he felt that no matter what he did I wasn't happy. That he had stopped trying to have intimacy with me because he knew that I didn't want that and that I kept seeing AP in my mind, that he didn't know what to do to make that stop. Told me that he loved me but that he didn't believe I loved him anymore. Asked if I believed him when he said it.

I didn't say much because I knew he wouldn't remember this conversation the next day anyway. Like I said, he's not much of a drinker and the handful of times he has gotten this drunk, this has always been the case. He doesn't remember what he did or said. I did however tell him that what I needed was more empathy from him, that he was failing there. He said that he just wasn't built that way and maybe I could accept that. I said NO because it's what I need and I have been "accepting" his lack of EQ for our entire M and I wasn't going to back down on this. He just frowned like a sad boy.

He also said that it was difficult for him to keep trying when nothing seemed to matter. That it was hard when there was no hope. When I asked for clarification, he said that there was no hope for forgiveness for his A from me. We have talked about this several times and I have been extremely addament that I believe that what he did is unforgiveable and if he can't live with never being forgiven by me then we can part ways. He has said he understands. I said that I worked to accept what had happened and try to create a new better M. He kept pushing about "hope", I again reiterated that maybe we should part ways then because I couldn't give him that. He said why not, because I don't know how I will feel in 5, 10, 20 years. I agreed that he was correct, but if he was holding out for forgiveness, he did it at his own peril.

He talked about how sad he was knowing that he caused all of this and that he was trying to be a better man. That he was sorry he couldn't talk to me about these things like this when he was sober, but that he meant them. That I have said I want apologies but that when he says he's sorry, it's never enough. Again, we have talked about this, I have told him if he is not willing to apologize for the rest of his life, then we can part ways. I have also told him that an "I'm sorry" is great (better than nothing), but that it doesn't erase the pain. He has argued with me about this in the past. I gave him the analogy of me running over his leg and breaking it. Obviously I feel bad and apologize, but that doesn't magically knit the bone back together. The break is still there and it still needs to heal. But his response was that the "I'm sorry" heals his heart

I've told my WH about my father and how he would come into my and my brother's rooms in the middle of the night to wake us up and tell us how much he loved us and was proud of us, when he was falling down drunk, barely able to stand, and slurring his words. While I knew he meant the words, they didn't really mean very much while he was drunk! WH's words and the whole conversation felt this way to me too. Like, OK, I get that you probably mean the things you're saying, but they don't MEAN anything if you have to be drunk to say them.

He also said that maybe it would be better to seperate if I'm miserable. That he would "take care of me". But I don't believe that one bit. I'm sure he would at first, but as soon as he found a replacement, that would go out the window. Honestly, he just doesn't like to feel like the bad guy.

I'm sure I forgot some things that were said, but the whole ordeal left me feeling blech. Oh, also, while he's talking about not having sex anymore and not wanting to push that on me, he's unbuttoning my dress and ogling my breasts

Anyway, not sure what I want here, maybe some perspectives other than my own? Some advice from other waywards about this kind of thinking? It makes be think he DOES think about the A and the consequences it has had on me, but never brings them up. Like, knowing that I visualize the things he's done with AP when he tries to get close. If only he would say something in those moments, if only to let me know that I'm not alone in this, but of course, god forbide he actually do something selfless

No advice, fournlau. You've been heard. My comment should bump this up and maybe somebody else will see it and comment.

I'm with you on it. He may mean it when he says it, but there's no value or weight behind it when he has to be drunk to say it. He could say it when he's sober but he's choosing not to. The first few times might be uncomfortable, but he could work on saying those things until he is comfortable saying them out loud when he's sober.

leafields
Thank you for understanding and making me feel like I'm not alone in thinking this way. I know people always say "drunk words, sober thoughts" and I feel that is true, but if you have to get drunk to say things you really feel in your heart, then what is the point?

So many things he said have me reeling and my next IC appointment isn't until July since my IC is taking June off! I guess I'll just have to write it all down and try to detangle it all. I know I have to spark a conversation about it, but ugh! It feels like wading in mud sometimes.

Hey there. I am not sure what to make of your situation but I wanted to tell you about a great book I am reading.

It’s Living and Loving after Betrayal by Steven Stosny,

It’s really helping me through a lot. Doesn’t really matter if you are R or D, it’s got some great perspective.

What’s been happening since the incident? Anything different? Are you/ he in counseling?

This is such a difficult journey and I want to give you support! No matter what his words were, I hope his actions show you where he is at.

Booze removed his inhibitions enough to tell you things he may not otherwise share, but you really can't have a serious conversation with someone who is so inebriated that he won't remember what he said the next day.

Have you mentioned the conversation to him after he sobered up? I think that's what I would do.

Totally get why this left you feeling icky. My WH is a weekend drinker, but he doesn't get drunk too often. When he does, he often tends to be giddy, make stupid jokes, and goes into the "I love you guys so much" mode. Better than an angry drunk, I suppose. It is hard to take them seriously in those moments, though, and absolutely builds resentment if that's they only way they can express their feelings. What is inhibiting them from being honest about their emotions when they are sober?

My WH has a pretty decent EQ and empathy skills, but he is avoidant of conflict and negative emotions. I'm usually the one who has to push to have A Talk about anything unpleasant. If I was in your situation, and if you are trying to work on your marriage, I would sit him down and be very open about what he told while drunk and ask him point blank if he agrees with those sentiments while sober, and if not, how he feels about it with a clear head. You might need to encourage him to speak his mind. Gottman has some good advice on how to have difficult conversations as a couple without stonewalling or fighting.

I don't buy into the trope that drunk people are more honest. For example, my step-MIL is a mean drunk, and she says hurtful crap that she would never say while sober because she doesn't want to be a hurtful person. The inhibitions we have in place with sobriety can be a good thing (e.g. your WH's sexual joke in front of your kids). Just because we repress certain thoughts or behaviors doesn't make them "the truth" IMHO.

I suspect that his behavior rubbed you the wrong way also because he was expressing a lot of self-pity, and that is never attractive, but it's especially enraging when it's a WH to a BH. After all, he brought this upon himself, but now he's putting the onus of his bad feelings on you (that you can't forgive him, that you need to be hopeful, etc.) When mine says stuff like this, I feel irritated too, and I hate having to remind him to be patient. It puts me in the "adult" role, which makes me feel like he hasn't learned enough from his affair behavior.

PinkJeepLady

Thank you for the book input, I'll be sure to check it out. Nothing has really changed in behavior since the incident. Just trying to figure out how to bring it up.

SacredSoul33

Have you mentioned the conversation to him after he sobered up? I think that's what I would do.

Not yet, but I plan to. The morning after he asked about the night before and had he done or said anything that he was in trouble for. I just said no because our daughter was there and it didn't seem appropriate to say anything.

NoThanksForTheMemories

I suspect that his behavior rubbed you the wrong way also because he was expressing a lot of self-pity,

I had not thought of that, but yes! It's like when he said that it was my choice if we divorced. It kind of felt as if he was saying it would be my fault if we divorced and not a consequence of his A. I know that's not what he meant, but it's how it felt. The whole "why won't you ever forgive me" really irritates me. I've already said why.

It puts me in the "adult" role, which makes me feel like he hasn't learned enough from his affair behavior.

^^This^^ I know I've said it before, but he sometimes acts like a "naughty boy" and makes me feel like the parent (and who want to be intimate with their child?).

Anyway, I will of course have to be the one to bring it up for sure. Will probably be done tonight. Will let you all know how that goes.

Sorry, not trying to be cruel, but it seems pretty obvious what was going on--he wanted to have sex. So he threw everything at you that you would want to hear...to have sex.

Sorry.

OwningItNow

Sorry, not trying to be cruel, but it seems pretty obvious what was going on--he wanted to have sex. So he threw everything at you that you would want to hear...to have sex.

I wouldn't argue with this assesment, as he does also get horny when he drinks like this.

I doubt he would admit to this though. It really felt like he was trying to make me feel guilty for not giving him "hope" for total forgiveness, and for still not being "over it". Though he doesn't say it in those words. I can feel it though. I also feel that he tries to go against that selfish instinct, but it sure does eem hard for him to stop being selfish.

[This message edited by fournlau at 12:33 AM, Tuesday, May 21st]

He also said that maybe it would be better to seperate if I'm miserable.

And that he felt that no matter what he did I wasn't happy. That he had stopped trying to have intimacy with me because he knew that I didn't want that and that I kept seeing AP in my mind, that he didn't know what to do to make that stop. Told me that he loved me but that he didn't believe I loved him anymore. Asked if I believed him when he said it.

He said that he just wasn't built that way and maybe I could accept that.

He also said that it was difficult for him to keep trying when nothing seemed to matter. That it was hard when there was no hope. When I asked for clarification, he said that there was no hope for forgiveness for his A from me.

That I have said I want apologies but that when he says he's sorry, it's never enough.

You've been heard. Crumby as it is, I agree with OwningItNow - he was trying to get some. He was heavily tuned to the self-pity channel to manipulate you into bed. Sure, maybe his wayward/blame shifting/selfish mode of thinking operates 24-7 and the booze diminished his ability to disguise his true mindset - that he can't (won't?) give you what you need to reconcile - unless you rug-sweep (Hmmmmm). Or maybe he was simply laser focused on sex because of the booze and was throwing the usual manipulation methods at you to see what would work to guilt you into sex. Either way, his willingness to manipulate you for his own ends does say something about his "selfish instincts". Is he manipulative in other situations as well? Be alert to this and watch his actions. Only repeated trustworthy and healing ACTIONS demonstrated consistently over time will show the truth - if he Is truly capable of sustaining real reconciliation.

At the same time also agree with you - the goal was to make you feel guilty. Not only was he serving up self-pity, he was also dishing out a heaping helping of DARVO on the side just in case shifting the blame might get you to feel guilt = maybe the guilt would help you to feel sorry for him = work your sympathy for sex. The manipulation goals behind self-pity and DARVO aren't mutually exclusive! The excerpts above are deep dish DARVO --- heavily flavored with self pity (sigh). It's demoralizing when they re-heat that old DARVO classic "It's not what I did that's the problem, the problem in your reaction to it" and expect us to eat it up.

Journal all of this now so you can discuss it with your therapist later! Hang in there and take care of yourself.

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 7:41 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

That his only thought was of me and how to make me happy. that he didn't care about anyone else, including the kids sad.

In vino veritas. Hopefully your kids weren't in earshot... not that they would be learning anything they didn't already know.

My husband was alcohol dependant for 18 months or so. During his affair and our separation following discovery. I was walking on eggshells around him.

His AP was also alcohol dependant, if I am to believe his version of things. And I do. Two idiots.

I joined AA for spouses and I understand how messy and devastating alcohol drinking can be.

In a nutshell, alcohol lowers inhibitions and loosens the tongue.

I wil never believe a drunk person. Any words that come out are alcohol driven. It is the alcohol talking, not the person. There may be some semblance to real thoughts and feelings and actions but for the most part it is exaggerated and falsified under the influence. This I what I understood from my meetings.

One of my conditions and it’s not a boundary it’s a condition, for our marriage to survive the infidelity is for my husband to severely limit his intake. No more drunkenness. When he drinks lightly, no sex. It’s his choice to drink or to have sex. He decides.

In the past five years he has maintained this limitation.

I think you can all feel my disgust for drunk people. Period.

I feel for you. I hear you fournlau.

I can’t really comment on the drinking as many of my XWH’s ONSs occurred after drinking, so while we were in R drinking was a big no-no for me anyway. But on the ‘hope’ angle I definitely hear you. My XWH was desperate for forgiveness, and for being able to make me happy again. He really really struggled with the idea that I was unlikely to ever forgive and that he couldn’t make me happy after D Day. It wore on him. Ultimately I think he has a rather simplistic view of emotions, but anyway.

And I also found it irritating, because it made me feel like if I did ever forgive him (unlikely, knowing me) it would be a signal to him that he was ‘off the hook’. It made me think that he wanted to push the shame away (understandable, but oh so unhelpful to a BS) and rugsweep.

So yes, OP, you have been heard.

I know people always say "drunk words, sober thoughts" and I feel that is true, but if you have to get drunk to say things you really feel in your heart, then what is the point?

It seems like conflict avoidance and controlling the outcome an rugsweeping issues all rolled into one. The fear of rejection - that you will say "yeah I can't deal with you anymore" or some form of that - it's likely an underlying burning issue he has but he is afraid to talk to you about it when sober. By not talking about it he can avoid hearing what he does not want to hear.

the question for me is: if your WS said when intoxicated that he cannot give you want you need, what does the rest matter? Where do YOU go from there with that knowledge?

Finally had the conversation last night. I tried not to get angry, but some of it came through. TBH, the only part of the whole thing that made me angry was the whole trying to make me say that there was "hope" that I might one day forgive him.

He did say that he didn't remember everything that he said, but that some of the things I brought dup rang a bell and there were bits and pieces. He said that it sounded like he was dramaticing some of his feelings, maybe having been amplified by the drinking. That yes, he felt some of those things, but not always (especially about being sad, I believe he gets depression sometimes, but of course he refuses to go to therapy because according to him, it doesn't help).

He admitted that these are things he thinks about but doesn't bring up while sober because he doesn't want to make things worse (about the sex thing), and of course contradicted himself by saying that he would prefer to bring some things up withh a therapist to mediate (sooo, does therapy work on not? I guess it just doesn't work on him alone). The conversation was fine and he was able to get a lot out that he would normally never talk about.

He hates when the past is brought up and I believe it's because he has much more shitty behavior in our past than I do (and that doesn't even include the cheating). He said that he feels like when I talk about the pasts it's as if there were never any good times, just bad times (to which I reminded him that of course that's what I bring up in therapy, that's what we were there for! Not to mention the fact that hurtful situations have so much more impact than good ones). He agreed, but not sure it made a difference in his mind.

He said that what came out in his drunken word vomit were his insecurities and fears. That he is still scared about our future but not as much as in the beginning. That he doesn't know how we are still together and he believed we would be divorced by now. He said that he does feel lonely and doesn't know how to fix that. I asked what he needed from me to not feel that way, but he couldn't give me an answer. I reiterated that perhaps he needs to go back to IC.

I did bring up the empathy and what he said, but didn't get anything back on that except that we are different people and react differently and said that in those moments it would help if I let him know what I need. Still is kind of aggravating because again the onus is on ME to prompt him, but like my IC says, I might have to keep doing that until he is able to do it for himself if I want him to change in that area. IDK

We are better in the relationship dynamics than preA but honestly, it doesn't take much to be better than before. I think he keeps trying to make it an equal thing, where we BOTH weren't working on the M. And yes, he's right, I had certainly tapped out. But only after decades of trying! Those two things are not equal!

All in all, I guess it was a good conversation, but damn, there is so much left to climb!

BluerThanBlue

No, the kids didn't hear, but you're right, they wouldn't be surprised. I forgot to bring this up durring our conversation, will have to remember for the next time. I really hate how he views the kids.

Notaboringwife

I wil never believe a drunk person. Any words that come out are alcohol driven. It is the alcohol talking, not the person. There may be some semblance to real thoughts and feelings and actions but for the most part it is exaggerated and falsified under the influence.

This is essentially what he said. He also said that he will NOT be drinking like that again. Thank you for your perspective, it does help in kind of reorganizing my thoughts about his words.

Perdita1

And I also found it irritating, because it made me feel like if I did ever forgive him (unlikely, knowing me) it would be a signal to him that he was ‘off the hook’. It made me think that he wanted to push the shame away (understandable, but oh so unhelpful to a BS) and rugsweep.

This is huge as well. I often wonder if I'm holding onto that forgiveness to punish him too. I don't think so, but I do wonder. It's just that I still feel that what he did was unforgiveable! There were so many options other than this, it was the ultimate selfish thing for him to do!

ThisIsSoLonely

the question for me is: if your WS said when intoxicated that he cannot give you want you need, what does the rest matter? Where do YOU go from there with that knowledge?

Like I said in the previous post, we did touch on this and as long as he is actively trying to work on it, then I will keep trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on it. He sucks at it right now, but at least he knows he sucks and needs LOTS of help. We'll see though, if there is any progress on that ground.

This feels familiar to me, and my husband is an alcoholic. They use alcohol to remove the discomfort they feel. When they are sober, they attribute their discomfort to problems with the marriage. If they avoid communication when it’s uncomfortable or when they have convinced themself of the outcome, they are not holding up their end of the bargain. They want credit for their words without responsibility for their actions. I’m sorry, but It should mean nothing to you.

[This message edited by ForTheTeam at 11:19 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

ForTheTeam

I understand what you are saying and yes, he is conflict avoidant, unfortunately, so am I. So we have both been trying to work on that, though I believe I have done a much better job than him in this regard. While he doesn't often instigate difficult conversations, he has stopped DARVO and will actively listen and try to understand what I am saying.

As I said, he is not a drinker. He has gotten this drunk maybe 4 times in our entire M. However, there is obviously an issue if he can't bring things up. We did talk more this morning and he is the one who actually brought it up again. Progress I guess. I did tell him that it felt that the whole "hope" and "forgiveness" aspect of the word vomit was in part because of his own guilt/remorse. He agreed that there was an element of that in there. To me that still kind of screams of selfishness, but if I had hurt someone that badly and knew I would never have forgiveness, I might feel the same way. I know that's a hard pill for him to swallow, but I don't feel guilty about it because it was his own choices that led to that. He knew the kind of person I am, and knew if I ever found out, I would NEVER forgive him or forget! So that's on him.