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I’m fairly new here. My dday was March 30th. I’ve posted my JFO story and some questions on the progress of where we may be at in this short amount of time after discovery if you want some context of where we are at so far.

My WW has been clear that she doesn’t want D, and I have made that clear as well. I have put it out there, especially the two weeks after discovery when everything was an absolutely shit show with NC not being immediate. We have good days and we have bad days. Most if not all of our bad days are led by my outbursts towards her about everything. She will say something or respond to a question or comment that is triggering for me, and I’ll start call and escalate until she shuts down. She is the classic avoidant attachment. I am without a doubt securely attached but this trauma has put me into anxious, avoidant and securely attached phases almost daily.

A couple of weeks ago we had a moment that led to intimacy. I told her I just wanted to see her put effort in that she cared about me and one thing led to another. I had been partly fearful of that moment thinking I’d have visions of AP or any other traumatic thought that wouldn’t allow me to be present. That wasn’t the case and I did truly feel connected to my wife and the sex was great. It continued throughout that day and through the next morning and then it just flat out stopped. I would make moves to instigate and she could start to feel it, and then shut it down and say she is just listening to her body and doesn’t feel comfortable being intimate right now.

I am having a hard time with this as I know being intimate in the form of traumatic bonding isn’t a long term healthy thing, but I find our situation strange that the WW is the one refusing intimacy and here I am being vulnerable to it and getting shut down. This leads to a feeling of being used, strung along and confused.

I know it’s not a one sizes fits all solution, but isn’t this just flat out statistically backwards? Or is her holding out actually a healthy thing? She says she needs to have those feelings towards me again. As in those feelings she knowingly stripped from our marriage and applied to the AP for a two month affair. Hearing things like that is absolutely gut wrenching. It makes me feel desperate for someone who abused me, and I don’t understand what she is thinking because I will respect her boundaries for not asking or initiating sex, but she sure as hell isn’t gonna come in and initiate it. Should I just take this at face value for what it really feels like it is? Part of me thinks it’s her still in the affair mindset, and another part of me thinks it’s her feeling guilty for what’s happened and not wanting to add intimacy to those feelings.

As far as traumatic bonding stories go, I haven’t read anything about the WW refusing the the BS being ready. Makes me feel weak, used and ashamed that I’d even want to have sex with her.

My WW and I also had a couple days where that was the case. It was fun and disturbing at the same time. I sure as hell needed that release - I didn't really care what she needed at that point. We started to get intimate again this past weekend when the kids were out. I told her she was a "beautiful woman", and she stopped and looked at me with reluctance and revolt. She didn't accept the compliment, and the mood was wrecked. It is definitely the affair fog. I surmised from that action that I am not the special person that has the privileged to give her compliments like that. That's reserved for the OM that is still lurking in her brain.

Hard, Hard boundaries were set after that afternoon. I am no longer allowing myself to be vulnerable until she gets her act together.

Very hard to say what is happening here. It doesn’t sound good, but at the same time it doesn’t have to spell doom either. Depends on how temporary this step is and how much effort she puts into building the connection she claims to want.

I think because she is avoidant, I am usually pro on someone like that trying to honor their feelings. I know that is likely her focus right now in IC. It’s hurtful but honesty is better than not honest.

It could be that the connection needs rebuilt more, and it could also be she is having humiliating mind movies and doesn’t want to say that for fear it will make you think she is thinking of it in a positive way.I had a hard time talking about that with my h because it sounds bad to say "I am thinking about ap and feeling shock of how humiliating that it feels to me." For me the thoughts were intrusive, it was truly upsetting me that I had found a way to be that intimate with someone outside of our marriage and knowing he was using me for it to boot. It made my skin crawl.

Unfortunately, I did it anyway, I did anything and everything to try and help h, and I put that as a priority over my feelings. It helped our marriage but it definitely made certain things linger. We had hyper bonding in two rounds. Early on and then about a year out after he had decided not to file divorce papers. The second round was more authentic from my side than the first round.

But I want you to note that anything you don’t want to put up with, don’t. There is no way for me to know your wife or how she feels. I don’t want to give you false hope if she isn’t going to be taking this chance you are giving her seriously. My response is just to say, I don’t think it’s odd for her to feel in flux about intimacy. Truth is, it’s took me a long time to really receive pleasure when my mind was so tied up in knots. I couldn’t quiet it enough to climax, and there wasn’t a lot of the normal anticipation thoughts through the day that I would typically have to stoke my desire.

So, it wasn’t really there. I pretended it was there to avoid him feeling the way you are, but in the end I am not sure that was healthy either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:52 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Well, but this is one of the things that happen when you are RUSHING into Reconciliation, as you are. (Rushing into R is actually a form of RUGSWEEPING, by the way.)

Let us recap. Your WW betrayed you with the D-day for you not even 7 weeks ago. She says she wants to reconcile. Meanwhile though, what have your WW's efforts been so far? WHY does your WW want to reconcile? I hate to say this, but she hasn't shown that she wants YOU as her husband, just instead that she wants the security of a marriage. And yet here you are doing more of the work to repair your marriage even though SHE was the one who cheated!

My honest guess is that your WW feels guilty but on a similar note, she probably feels really strange and unsettled about how and why you are seemingly putting in more of the work than she is. If you took a harder line on how you won't settle for staying with someone who is not loving you as you deserve to be loved, it would make you feel better and it may even get your WW to wake up. And on that note, why AREN'T you considering Divorce more strongly than you are? You deserve so much better than a WW who isn't responding to you physically.

I realize that this sounds harsh Friend, but I am just trying to wake you up!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:14 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

You deserve so much better than a WW who isn't responding to you physically.

I will tread carefully because I don’t know what is happening with your wife. But responding to someone physically is not a sign all is good either.

I can see how some will interpret this as she doesn’t want sex specifically with you. And honestly that’s not out of the realm of possibility.

I tend to think though, depression is high during the time after dday, I wouldn’t have really wanted sex with anyone. I just felt so sad and in my head. I was drowning I don’t think that behavior is something to punish or latch on to, but it’s not something to ignore either.

I think you are probably better off being a little more like Brennan is saying, try and detach more while you guys are in this spot. You have to protect yourself in all of it. But I wouldn’t assume things, female sexuality does not mirror a man’s. Headspace is more often a factor for us.

@hikingout,

I'm not going to disagree with you on the literal point that female sexuality is different from male sexuality. Contextually though I have to stand by what I said. It is very difficult to feel desire, I think, when one feels so much guilt and a sense of being undeserving AND when one is pining for their AP, and I don't think that is gender-specific. And when the BS is rushing into R, which seems to be what is happening here, then that guilt and sense of undeserving--and pining for the AP--on the part of the WS, seems to be an almost-universal reaction.

When the BS takes a harder line focusing more on what THEY the BS deserves from a relationship, then from reading thread after thread here on SI, the WS sure seems to find their desire for BS again that much faster. The WS seems to "wake up" and realize how much they want the BS to stay (and how much they desire the BS sexually too). It doesn't mean that the WS doesn't have a lot more digging and fixing themselves, but the BS's self-respect over the preservation of the marriage, sure seems to jump-start the WS's desire to start the process.

We have seen many instances here over the past couple of years as well however, where the BS has decided right away that they want R with a WS who is still foggy. Just as the OP has seemingly already decided that he wants R. Does it ever end in R? I haven't seen it turn out that way....

And in any sort of long run, staying committed to a partner who does not desire you sexually, has GOT TO BE HELL. So I don't think detaching like what was suggested in your post above, is a good strategy at all.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:32 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Makes me feel weak, used and ashamed that I’d even want to have sex with her.

First, all these feelings make a ton of sense for what you described. Second, I commend you for recognizing and naming these emotions instead of just saying "I feel bad". Brené Brown would say naming our feelings influences how we experience them, so having a rich emotional vocabulary like this should help you in your healing process.

I know exactly, EXACTLY, where you are coming from on this, friend. To feel sexual rejection from the woman who betrayed you sexually, man, that felt like the ultimate humiliation.

From the other side of it, I have to recommend that you disengage from her sexually. I know, you really REALLY don’t want to hear that. You probably feel owed, and sex is a powerful bonding experience in a relationship that is shaking apart. But I think hikingout is spot on: at best you don’t know what you are working with here, at worst she doesn’t actually want you. Sex coming from the wrong motivations in either partner can complicate the fuck out of things. And on top of that, hysterical bonding doesn’t fix anything if the underlying dynamics aren’t solid. It’s like breaking a vase, taking the pieces in a bowl and dumping in cement. Sure, you are together and bonded, but not in any way that you want to continue in.

When I was in your shoes, I completely and utterly ignored when people gave me this advice. I wish now that I hadn’t.

Appreciate everyone’s replies. To give more context on it all, she did say she enjoyed the two days we were intimate, and she said she’s not sure what happened in the past two weeks, but that she wanted to be open about those thoughts. We have had three pretty big blow ups that have been led by me on exploding questions or me pressuring her to expose her thoughts or feelings on certain things that I’m not getting exactly what I want from her. I do know she’s trying, and I do have hard boundaries in place to protect myself and go the D route if push came to shove.

She comes off as not sexual period, it doesn’t feel like not sexual to just me. She showed those fog affair gazes around dday when I found out they were physical, and those looks aren’t there anymore. Take that for what it’s worth, but I do see progress on her side. She’s also said consistently the past couple of weeks that she wants to uncover her own baggage and make sure we have gotten to a better place emotionally before started to have a bunch of sex.

She told me today that while she isn’t ready physically, she wants me to know that she’s trying her hardest and that she knows she needs to do even more than that. In the last two days she has FINALLY started saying very heartfelt comments about how she is so sorry for doing this to our marriage and to me and has repeatedly told me how she knows I would never do anything like this to her and how big of a heart I have and how bad she feels for everything. It’s not the end of that, but at least we freaking started somewhere.

She also got close to me today but is on the first day of her cycle and said how bad it was. I told her I wanted to make love to her and she said she wasn’t ready (and made a comment about her cycle) but that I needed to keep telling her that I wanted that. We will see if the tune stays on the next couple of days.

She has turned the very first corner in not painting this affair as all peachy. Part of that was influenced by her realizing that the AP lied to her about being separated from his wife. She’s a proud women so the guilt of being caught, plus the realization (while obvious to everyone but her) that this guy just wanted sex and got it. Her entire foundation of what she repeated for weeks about the affair all came crumbling down, and I can see it playing out.

The progress and experience of these things is fucking awful. I’ll tell you one thing though, I feel bulletproof. Problems that used to be problems don’t even feel like a single bit of energy to conquer.

[This message edited by newbeginnings1985 at 8:01 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

Won’t be fooled,

We will have to agree to disagree because you can’t see the nuance I am making here. She very well could be unable to have sex with anyone right now due to all the points you made. I do not think he should make any decisions now, to R or D. This is recovery, and that does require detachment so everyone can recover.

I think it’s important to understand just because she doesn’t want sex, doesn’t mean she doesn’t want the OP. It’s just not that unusual for libido to be effected and the cause is not always the spouse.

Let me put it a different way, at 7 weeks out I was barely functioning. Sexuality ebbs and flows as we have depression or happiness. Telling him your wife doesn’t want you is jumping to conclusions. Likely his wife feels guilt and all sorts of things that has her libido low.

If that is the case, if he disengages and detached from her and fo uses on himself while this is being worked through that is helpful. I don’t disagree he could divorce but 7 weeks out most bs are not ready to go to that conclusion. Instead, telling him he deserves someone who wants him is making it sound like her issue is with him and we do not know that.

This is painful, I don’t discount that but my libido relies on more than just my husband, as his does as well. If one of us isn’t in our best well being sex will slide to longer between. We just do not know what is happening here.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:38 PM, Tuesday, May 21st]

nb1985,

I might be reading your posts wrong, as I seem to be getting a sense that you are trying to pursue your WW, and not the other way around.

You seem to be doing most of the 'work' to R, whilst your WW is wallowing in her own pity for herself and the lost future with her AP.

If this is the case, then you are still doing the Pick-Me dance. You are trying to 'win' your WW back.

Have a look at 1345Marine's thread titled 'An observation for faithful spouses'. I do hope that you will be able to get a mindset reset.

RR

@Newbeginnings1985

She says she needs to have those feelings towards me again

That statement really rubs me the wrong way. I will not continue the thought, but really rubs me the wrong way.

That statement really rubs me the wrong way. I will not continue the thought, but really rubs me the wrong way.

It should rub anyone the wrong way.

Women more often have exit affairs, and I think often those are based on distorted thinking. Telling a bs that distorted thinking is cruel but also needed if they are to be honest with where they are.

They just spent a lot of time brainwashing themselves, rewriting history, often forming addictions to the adrenaline and dopamine.

I think it would be equally, if not more distressing to say "I loved you and I never stopped loving you" because how is that any better? It all sucks, all of it. At least if the ws is honest the bs can operate with the knowledge of where things are.

I personally find it suspicious when we are remorseful immediately and love bomb their spouse. It seems so disingenuous. The ws broke the connection, its sudden reemergence would seem hinky to me outside of a one night stand or a purely sexual affair. The majority of female ws don’t show up here with that as the story because more cheat for emotional reasons. Not all, no generalization, but more often.

@hikingout,

I think I do see the nuance in what you are saying though. I do agree that sexuality ebbs and flows and it may be possible that WW's libido in general is completely shot.

The paradox of this is that however, is that it does not serve OP well to commit to R while accepting this from his WW as part of the process. From what I have seen on here though, it is the BSs in particular the BHs who take a harder line towards their WS, who seem to have better outcomes e.g., their WS wakes up much faster.

So I DON'T think the OP should be sold on R already (as he seems to be), and nor do I think he should take his WW's dithering-depression-disengagement as a 'sickness' that he should stick around and help her through (even if it is indeed a sickness on the part of WW as she recovers from ego-kibbles and goes through dopamine withdrawal). He would be better served to prioritize his own healing (away from WW) and to take D as a serious option for him.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:19 PM, Thursday, May 23rd]

But I am not aguing the point of should he reconcile. I said to detach and recover. I agree, he is not in a place to do either r or d.

The only thing I didn’t agree with is to what you said that I highlighted. I don’t think it necessarily is that she doesn’t want him specifically. It’s too soon to really do anything except detach and focus on what he needs. So that was the only argument I had in what you said. We are saying the same thing otherwise. In fact, this is what I said in my response to you:

I do not think he should make any decisions now, to R or D. This is recovery, and that does require detachment so everyone can recover.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:36 PM, Thursday, May 23rd]

Have you asked her for what is behind her actions regarding not wanting sex? Have you shared how this makes you think and feel? R requires dialogue, not a ton of assumptions and speculation.

It seems like she has a long way to go to understand the impact she's had on you and how to help you. And she needs some very specific feedback delivered calmly. I am not saying she should be initiating sex constantly if she is having her own problems but it appears like she is clueless when she says "you need to keep telling me you want intimacy". That's the exact opposite of what should be happening.

Has she read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda McDonald?

Trdd

It seems like she has a long way to go to understand the impact she's had on you and how to help you.

I agree. Saying things like she isn't comfortable being intimate right now is the same as saying "I fucked AP, who I'd only been emotional with for two months, but after 15 years with you, I have to get used to you again!"

This will haunt the relationship forever if you do reconcile. I was treated with this kind of bullshit over 40 years ago and it still bothers me and hurts the relationship today..

@hikingout,

I think we are saying fairly similar things and that I mostly agree with you.If OP said he is convinced he really wants to R however, I'd find myself trying to convince him otherwise, but if OP said he wanted to D, I would say he is smart to do so!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:11 PM, Thursday, May 23rd]

My W's IC became our MC and saw us on d-day. Her prescription for sex was: negotiate. She did urge my W to say 'yes' unless she really didn't want sex, but it was up to us. Sex was a critical part of M for me, so I wanted it from the start. Trauma-bonding, hysterical bonding ... didn't matter. I wanted to find out if we could bond again through sex. Bonding through sex was a true requirement - if we didn't, I'm pretty sure I'd have chosen D.

It's fine to know you want R, but R is hard work. As far as I can see, work needs a positive payoff, something worth putting out a lot of effort. R needs to be something one wants, not the only alternative to D one can think of.

That means thinking about what a new M looks like to both of you. I can understand a WS feeling so bad about what they've done that they don't want sex, but a WS who overcomes their self-disgust seems like a better bet for R.

Those of us who seem happiest in R are the couples who figured out what they wanted in the new M and figured out how they'd know if they were getting it or not. Simply recreating the pre-A M probably won't work - it just puts you back where you were before the A ... which leaves you with an A in your future. You need to define a new M that serves both of you. Then you both need to sign up for the new M. If you don't get and give positive agreement, you make it too easy to hide misgivings that will cause difficulties in the future.

Whether your W is up for sex right now is between you and her. You and your W have to determine what your R will be. The better you define it, the better your chances of success, if you reach agreement. If you don't reach agreement, you'll know you're not a good fit for each other, and you can split more or less amicably.

Bottom line: knowing you want R is a good start, but it's just a start.

*****

ETA in light of posts below:

it's not making love, and it's a far cry from what we had in the decades before his affair.

I definitely went through a long phase of using my W for my own pleasure. It took a long while for me to be concerned about her pleasure. There were times I started something and found myself bored, so I stopped. Early on, anger drove a lot of my desire; at some point, I stopped that.

I'm pretty well convinced that I could not have gotten back to love without going through the phase of 'I want mine.' Some of the post-d-day sex was taking back what I had lost. Also, when my W said 'no', I accepted it.

VERY IMPORTANT: I'm sharing my experience to provide a data point, but it's only one data point.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:04 PM, Friday, May 24th]

As far as traumatic bonding stories go, I haven’t read anything about the WW refusing the the BS being ready

nb1985, this is exactly what happened to me, but my WH is male and I'm female. He was soooo deeply enmeshed with AP after his LTA, during which time he stopped having any kind of sex with me. This continued even after dday. He dragged his feet about getting STI testing. Then he complained about viagra giving him headaches (though he took it anyway when he went to see AP). The he blamed sleep apnea or high BP or having put on some weight for low libido. It got to the point where I finally did the 180 and told him I was no longer interested (true). I still had plenty of desire, but I was so fed up with his behavior that I had no desire to be with *him* anymore.

As others have said, a lot of damage is done when a WS behaves like this. Lately (1.5 years past dday1), he has become more affectionate and interested in R. I've got enough of a physical need that I'm willing to be physically intimate with him once or twice a month, but it's not making love, and it's a far cry from what we had in the decades before his affair.

I've said it elsewhere, but watching your WS get over someone else is brutal. When you compound that with deception, gaslight, and sexual rejection, that's a lot of trauma, and it may or may not ever heal.

I suspect this is not as statistically as backward a situation as you might think. When there is emotional attachment to the AP, the WS's brain is wired to want them. Some WSes can be "in love" and sexual with multiple partners, including their spouse. Many cannot. Throw on some guilt, a big helping of shame, and the self-centered thinking that allowed them to cheat, and you have plenty of WSes who are reluctant to open back up to their BS or their marriage.

I'm so sorry you have become part of this shitty club.

Great post, nothanks. I think that is true.

Look, as a new ws, I didn’t want to rock the boat. I pretty much sex bombed him because it’s what seemed to help him most. But it was a bandaid for the larger work that needed to be done.

But inside, I felt like your wife. So depressed I just felt asexual. It wasn’t about being attuned to the ap,

My fantasies were more about what I could do to look clever, what I could do to take better pictures, my fantasies were very self directed. It was pure validation.

But had I not sex bombed him I am pretty sure we would be divorced. It’s a tender, tender thing. I wanted to make a big point that it might not be about you, it probably isn’t about the ap either. I had great chemistry with my husband our whole marriage, even today. But that’s not to say you need to endure any of it.

I am not saying your wife is any of these things or even that it’s the same situation. I am saying it for this reason: my sex bombing was a manipulation. It wasn’t with bad intent, but it was dangerous if I hadn’t followed through with trying hard to R. At least if you are detached from her that will not be put in the equation of your decision making.

I can understand Sissoon feeling like he needed to see if they could get their sex life back. This is a natural position for anyone who has been cheated on to be in. I would not have even thought much about doing it anyway had I not been on this site and heard all these men saying all the same things. It hit home that I needed to give him that.

But from a female perspective, I would have rather given him more honesty over how I was feeling. Everything builds on that. At least you can see the precariousness of the situation, and you are being able to make decisions based on the reality of where you are. If this ends up being a week or two, that’s a blip so it’s best not to react yet, but I would not abide by it indefinitely.

It did work out for us, and so it’s hard to second guess that how this all happened was necessarily wrong. Just be careful with your heart. It isn’t a mixed signal, it’s still a signal to where she is and that is not yet with her head straight.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:47 PM, Friday, May 24th]