SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I like 5decades breakdown.

In answering the original post: a lie? Hard to tell with you to be honest.

It read as passive aggressive to me. You admit you were upset and frustrated that she left. Rather than communicate your feelings you took a shot at her essentially blaming her for the kids being upstairs.

Perhaps what you meant was "why do you care? You up and left us anyway," but either way, it was a passive aggressive way to show your displeasure.

Just not cool. Even in a marriage without infidelity, this communication style is poison.

A couple of times you've posed the question: Is blame important?

Yes, especially when YOU need to own it yourself.

You seem to minimize your own actions and maximize hers. Can you own this?

Can you own that you wanted her to feel like the kids going upstairs was due, at least partly, to her storming off upstairs? You omitted your part to her--really the main part--since you urged them upstairs after the kids asked what they were doing next.

It seems like you aren't owning it to yourself.

Earlier issue where she accused me of being unempathatic and pissed off....I wasn't pissed off just shocked at something which happened earlier in the day with a thought she bought up

Is it possible that she reads you pretty well by now? Were you shocked...but also pissed off?

Blame isn't very effective when others are pointing the finger. It tends to make people defensive and then the person who is "to blame" fails to grow.

But when we really own our own stuff and apply blame to ourselves, we can grow.

What work are you doing around this?

Better to hold yourself genuinely too accountable for a while and experience some growth.

I hope you haven't left because you aren't getting a supportive answer that you did nothing wrong....
I only have a couple of thoughts to share.

I fully believe that your intent was not to lie or manipulate but unfortunately "intent" has nothing to do with what you actually did. With infidelity, intent is one of those horrible things that unfaithful seem to believe they should be judged by. I didn't intend to hurt you... but you did anyway. I didn't intend to break our wedding vows... but I did anyway. I didn't intend to traumatize you to the point you have nightmares...but I did anyway. Intent simply doesn't matter anymore. It only matters what you did.

When she then came downstairs about 30 minutes later, she asked me why have the kids gone upstairs. I said "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs". I wasnt pissy but I was upset and frustrated. She asked me again, why have the kids gone upstairs. Again I repeated "their programme has finished and you stormed off upstairs".

Help me understand what exactly the difference between "pissy" and "upset and frustrated" is because to me this is a distinction without a difference. But you clearly believe it matters somehow and makes what you were saying ok if the latter but not ok if the former. I believe you were upset and wanted to hurt her feelings. You very easily could have said, "it was their bed time and I told them to go upstairs because you had left so I believed we were done watching the show for tonight." That would have accomplished what you say the intent behind your sending them upstairs without the blame part. If I am being generous, perhaps you think a lot of thoughts in your head that you don't verbalize but you DO expect others to mind read them and give you credit. Why didn't you change the second answer even slightly?

You seem very set on "explaining yourself" and "being right". Multiple times you say how she expresses something but then give your side of it. You might want to consider taking everything she says a FACT of her reality. If she says the sky is orange, you should practice understanding that even if it looks blue to you, it is 100% factual that it is orange for her. That is how devastating what you did really is. It has literally altered her reality. Or as others have said, by all means, fight to win this battle at the cost of losing the war....

Tiny, your job is to just stand there in the storm you created, and take it. Bury your frustration and just take it. Be grateful she hasn’t left you.

You lied when you told the kids to go to bed, but didn’t tell your wife you told them to go to bed. You were manipulative when you used words like "stormed off", even if she did storm off. You could have been defusing, but instead you played a little power game.

Why did she storm off? Because her husband cheated on her and she is dying inside. She is entitled to storm 24/7, and you are expected to stand in that storm, and show gratitude throughout. Not complicated, shipmate.

Whatever your attitude was before and during the affair, it’s not the attitude that will get you out of this. Change must occur. If you are unable…

Tiny can you use this issue to really sit and think about how your reactions and words may be making your situation worse and maybe how your thoughts processes contributed to the fact you thought cheating was acceptable?

The first person we lie to is ourself.

Were you angry and did you want to blame her? You say you didn’t but as an outsider it appears you were angry with her and you wanted to inflame the situation. ‘Storm off’ is never going to help. If your boss was angry you had handed a report in late and s/he walked away from you into his/her office would you say ‘hey boss when you stormed off earlier today ….’. You just wouldn’t use ‘storm off’ as it would make the boss angrier surely.

If your wife is posting here under your account it would be good to make her own account. People would be happy to help her.

As others have said at the moment you are lucky - she is engaging with you. My husband used to think my silence meant I was okay. I can assure him it’s not. I am far from okay if I’m silent. If I’m silent it’s because I feel talking to him is wasting my breath. It’s because I don’t want to share my thoughts and feelings as he is unsafe and doesn’t deserve to know anything about me. It’s me distancing myself from him to protect myself FROM HIM! That’s not good for him. He’s lying to himself if he thinks me not sharing my thoughts means I am okay/happy. And I know he lies to himself.

I also relate to the ‘burning out’ in pretty sure he has done that many times. I would cry or rage for hours. And i have cried and raged to the point that I’ve remembered I certainly don’t need him. He is responsible for the darkest time in my life and when I needed him he was there stabbing me in the back.

So I now have to answer the question ‘do I want him?’.

Your wife will get through this storm but as others have said the question is will she still want you in her ship? At the moment it’s too early for her to know. What you do now is crucial. But if my husband had said what you said I would have closed down a little more. I would see that as lying and I no longer tolerate anyone lying to me.

If my children lie they are called out immediately. They know lying to me is worse than whatever they have/haven’t done. Everyone makes errors or mistakes, we need to make mistakes in life - but lying is a choice and it can become a habit.

If a friend was a liar they would be gone. I see lying (and omitting truth) as the bad habit of weak or manipulative or self centred people or at best someone who prefers an easy life over truth and in my opinion life’s too short for liars. It’s a bad trait and I don’t respect them, I sometimes feel sorry for them but that’s not a good basis for friendship.

After their show they asked what they were doing next and I told them it was there lamp time/they could go upstairs.

This right here. You told your wife the kids went upstairs because the show was over, and because she stormed off. You told her that..twice. But right here proves you lied. The kids didn't leave because the show was over,or because mom went upstairs. The kids ASKED YOU what they were doing next, and YOU TOLD THEM to go upstairs. That's why they went upstairs. They weren't on their way up, they were sitting there,asking you what they could do. You made the decision to send them to their rooms. That's why they left. Because dad said so.

If you truly don't feel you lied, then that's a huge insight into why your wife is always so frustrated.

Hey TinyTim,

I think you are not super self aware. I think you did want her to believe she had ruined family night. And I don’t think you are fully aware of that or why.

Here is why I am saying this- because Everytime you post you are almost sounding like you want our validation that you were right, or that your bs has over- reacted. This tells me that your ego needs you to be right and this is causing you to have blinders in when it comes to understanding your motivations and what you are communicating. You have a hard time seeing yourself as having these darker traits.

We are all light and dark, I believe we come to earth to let as much light in as we can and to resolve the things that bring the darkness. Facing one’s darkness is painful and sometimes our egos are too fragile to do it.

You carry resentment for how your wife responds to you, but there is no empathy or self awareness as to why.

The key lies in your relationship with yourself. You are critical of yourself so that critical nature also comes out towards others. That self critical part of yourself makes thinking you are wrong or being punishing towards your wife when she is upset is admitting to something you do not want to look at. But it’s making what you claim to want elusive. I think part of you knows she isn’t going to leave so you just want things to straighten out and get back to normal.

I am not condemning you. You need to work on your relationship with yourself so that you can work through these difficult feelings you are having. The more we learn to love ourselves, give ourselves compassion, the more love and empathy you can have for your loved ones. You are in a war with yourself and taking it out on those around you. And you are so convinced or need so much to be right you come here seemingly to gather leverage for your position. I don’t think you are aware of that either.

Look, in the end you are going to need to decide - is it more important to be right or are there other things that should be prioritized above that? You do a lot of fighting to be right. And that leaves your wife very alone in her feelings, and you very alone in yours.

What if you had said "ah, the kids finished the show, so I thought we would save the next one for when you could join us. Since they have gone to bed, do you want to tell me about how you are feeling?" Then you listen and apologize. It doesn’t matter what your intentions are or were, because when it comes at the cost of her and your relationship it’s coming to great cost to you as well. So you say I am sorry for making you feel this way. I want us to work together as us against our problems. What can I do to make you feel safer when this happens next time?" And then do what she asks, what she needs, the next time. It doesn’t matter who is right or wrong in the fight, it matters that your hearts connect and you move forward from that place slightly closer each time. All these small things will add up to that in time of you are consistent.

And if you mess that up, start again. Don’t get in a shame spiral and take it out on her.

Where are you on reading what Dr Gottman says about de-escalating conflict??? Are you in therapy? What are you doing to heal so you can help your wife heal?

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:50 PM, Tuesday, July 9th]

TinyTim, I hope you're still reading here.

Look, in the end you are going to need to decide - is it more important to be right or are there other things that should be prioritized above that? You do a lot of fighting to be right. And that leaves your wife very alone in her feelings, and you very alone in yours.

HikingOut is spot on here.

Based on your other posts, I think that this dynamic existed long before your affair. You seem like you're used to being the one in control, you tend to dominate conversations and arguments with your wife, and you were always able to "rules lawyer" and rationalize your way into being right about everything.

That's why your post-affair wife is now completely unrelenting in every conflict, big or small. It's also why she interrupts you and won't even let you get a word out sometimes... she's done letting you talk circles around her.

One thing that you can do to win back your wife's trust and show that you're a safe partner is to exercise patience, humility, and let go of the need to be right (and therefore in control). This behavior will not come naturally or feel comfortable at first, but hopefully with enough time, practice, and perseverance, it will come more easily in the future.

Hi all,

I am still here and have read all your comments. I am sorry I wont be able to respond to all your comments and hopefully you will respect the fact that I'll be here all day if I did try and address em all.

Hiking out and BTB

You are both bang on in so many ways, I would say though pre A I was the most laid back and easy going person ever. I allowed lots of people family included to walk all over me and I never dominated my BS and we never really argued if we did I just mostly agreed and went along with it so I guess i was just lying and was never true to myself or my BS about my feelings.

Hiking out you say...

"You carry resentment for how your wife responds to you, but there is no empathy or self awareness as to why"

Your right I do, it's ridiculous as I know what I have done...its literally there in my head and I cant escape it truly. However when I get myself in these situations of frustration I end up hyper focusing on stupid details.

Like yesterday....

My bs pointed out how I should be lucky that she is still invested in this and wants this to work...
I then spent five minutes arguing as to why I dont necessarily believe that point. Literally ridiculous.....

Anyway I dont know where to even start on that front Hiking out. It's like I have gone from one extreme of being totally complaint to now one of being an absolute dick when I dont get my way or I feel a sense of injustice (irony as I know my BS has suffered the biggest of all injustices)

"The more we learn to love ourselves, give ourselves compassion, the more love and empathy you can have for your loved ones. You are in a war with yourself and taking it out on those around you. And you are so convinced or need so much to be right you come here seemingly to gather leverage for your position. I don’t think you are aware of that either."

Where do I even start with this.....its soooo hard to even know where I start with trying to think like this and begin to love myself or have compassion for myself when I have done such a shitty thing and have that as a reminder when things go slightly wrong at home...

Thanks though all for your comments and observations x

Praying for you, TT. I’m sure it feels like an impossible mountain to climb, but it’s not. Find just one good spot to dig in, and you just described a few. Tell your wife you are going to target fixing one big area and then dive into it in IC. Then move to the next. Gain momentum and you’ll be both bettering yourself AND doing your part to rebuild trust and intimacy. You can do it, you can.

I have gone from one extreme of being totally complaint to now one of being an absolute dick

Compliance doesn't equal remorse.

Compliance, according to google,in simple terms, means "abiding by a set of rules."

It means you do what you're told,because you want a certain outcome. The problem with that is, no real change happens.

You argued with her, for several minutes, that you didn't feel blessed that she offered the gift of reconciliation? Why on Earth would you do that?? If that's how you truly feel,let this woman go. She is in so much pain.

It takes a daily commitment.

I get what you are saying that you were a people pleaser and now you don’t want to be. Here is the part to remember- when you were people pleasing that too was a control issue. You were controlling other people’s vision of you by always going along and being the good guy.

So they are not opposite reactions, they are different reactions around the same thing.

When your wife points things out or gets upset it’s triggering you because you feel great shame over what you have done. You want to control the narrative by trying to keep justifying things. By proving you are right.

Have you read Rising strong by Brene Brown? It’s truly illuminating how our shame dictates our behavior. You are consumed with it and it makes you not want to address it with your wife. You just want her to see you as good again.

Try taking a beat before responding. Remind yourself that you don’t need to be right and you don’t need to people please. What you really want is to be the man who is strong enough to hold your wife and understand her. This needs to be addressed in IC.

The way to get to the place of living yourself is starting by trying to like yourself. You can’t like yourself when you are acting like this. You can like yourself when you are doing what you know you need to do. When we do good we feel good and when we feel good we want to do more good and we change our cycle of behavior.

Don’t get overwhelmed- just keep trying to do the next right thing. The more right things you choose to do the easier it will be to get in a path of shedding your shame and making room for your wife’s pain. The more you can do that the more you will create an environment where she can heal. Then, you will begin to win her heart back. She is right she is still there, still trying, but she is very tired and very traumatized. She wants this to work because she loves you and she loves being a family, if there isn’t great love then there isn’t great pain.

"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behaviour."

Stephen M.R. Covey, The Speed of Trust: The One Thing that Changes Everything

Not really an affair recovery book, but more something for you to think about based on the number of times you have said intent.

You are trying to rebuild trust and so you need to be hyperaware of what your *actions* are and how they may be perceived by your wife (whom you hurt deeply). You have lost the benefit of doubt on intent, at least for now, so it's all action.

This is exactly the same advice we give BS's. Don't judge a WS by their words or arguments. Only by their actions.

Part of the problem is most WSs are great at also deceiving themselves to their intents.

Was being doormat and/or letting your wife get her way in the past one of the justifications you used to rationalize your decision to have an affair?

How might your resentment (whether it’s justified or manufactured) be affecting your treatment of your wife right now and sabotaging reconciliation?

When your wife comes to you with these inevitable events, don’t run from them and don’t use your old responses. Instead, see them as opportunities. Opportunities to practice being who you want and need to be, and opportunities to demonstrate that to your wife.

Every time you have one of these run-ins, whatever else is going on, it shows you that she still cares. It is a gift given to you by your wife, and you should take advantage of each and every one of them. Practice makes perfect.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 3:45 PM, Saturday, July 13th]