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Hi there again!

My H and and I had such a good day yesterday. Our youngest turned 4 years old and we took her out for her bday and then of course today I spiraled. I needed to not forget what he did.

I asked him once again what he triggers were.

He told me the same shit then added the "color purple"

When I asked him what he meant he said she always had her nails a dark purple. THIS IS NEW. I LOVE HALLOWEEN and so of course so does her stalker ass.

He said he didn't really think it was important but he told me that she liked that color.

He went golfing with my oldest daughter but I am so upset right now with our youngest kids at home.

I told him i would never avoid that color because, well fuck her.

He said he was just answering my question honestly and now i want to either avoid that color or get my nails done in that color this weekend, bc once again F her.

How am I supposed to cope with his answers?

I want them but then cant handle them? The more i ask the more i get hurt.

ETA: why did he pay attention to her favorite colors and nails and never did mine?! The F. WHY DID THIS STICK!?

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 11:51 PM, Wednesday, July 10th]

Hey, friend. Sorry you are struggling.

Are you asking questions in a stream of consciousness way, or are you being deliberate about the questions you ask? I wrote them down, considered what I really wanted and some of what I wrote down I just deleted. I had a situation where my wife put strong restrictions on question asking (which I never should have tolerated, but that is in the past). So that external restriction helped me to be more selective. But you can also choose to do that, and I would recommend it.

Also: you will never know everything. You will never know everything. You will never know everything. You need to accept that. If you keep asking your husband open ended questions, he is going to keep digging into the endless vault of nail polish color type details. Did you need to know THAT? Probably not, and you will never know everything. And that’s ok.

All right Ink

I can be honest with you. I need to know everything. Why do I not need to know everything what if there’s something that I don’t ask that is important how do I know??

What if there’s one stupid question that triggers a very important memory like when do I know when to stop asking questions?? Help me seal this part of my brain because I can’t.

Why do I keep pain shopping?

edited to add. I asked him what triggered him and that’s what he answered. Should I just stop asking opening questions because I know there is a lot of answers he could give me over six months but like why does he remember stupid shit about her that doesn’t matter

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 2:16 AM, Thursday, July 11th]

Why did he pay attention to the OW’s nails? Because he had to.

He had to impress her. He already impressed you. He felt too comfortable in the marriage and didn’t have to try anymore. He already got you.

But the new shiny ( ) AP forces the cheater to puff out his chest and show his best side. Just like when he had to do the same with you.

I hope this helps you understand the cheater mentality. He didn’t notice her nail color for any other reason she forced him to be on his game and show he was interested in all she said and did.

It is so hard to not throw in the towel.

I loved lord of the rings until I saw her now I hate gollum bc she is such a resemblance. ( he just has more hair).

I hate feeling like I wasn’t good enough. I hate feeling like I have to compete with trash. M

1st wife it makes sense but in my effed up brain I feel like my nails weren’t good enough. My love wasnt enough, our kids weren’t enough.

I feel like trash. I can’t stop feeling like trash.

I can be honest with you. I need to know everything. Why do I not need to know everything what if there’s something that I don’t ask that is important how do I know??

What if there’s one stupid question that triggers a very important memory like when do I know when to stop asking questions?? Help me seal this part of my brain because I can’t.

I’m going to go back to two useful (to me) models I’ve used before here to try to move the needle here.

First: disclosure is like the world’s shittiest game of battleship if it is approached like the BS has to ask just the right question to spark an answer from the WS. It’s truly crazy making because there is a perverse but painful satisfaction in getting a "hit" and then endless suspicion when you are told you have a "miss", but you don’t actually trust them.

The solution to this is the WS MUST fully disclose a good enough narrative of the affair. All the big pieces must be there, and absolutely no lies can be tolerated, either omission or commission. The BS should then be able to use that structure provided by the WS and begin to fill in next level details, the colors and character of the story. And we should be able to ask to our satisfaction. But I believe our questioning should remain in that frame that has been provided (stick with me, I’m not leaving it on that). A poly may be useful in deciding that the framework provided by the WS is trustworthy, individual choice.

Next, for the second model, the BS has to use what they get in this process to build up a house of cards in their brain. We need to take what we’ve learned from untrustworthy second hand sources and build up a good enough narrative of what our life was when we were being betrayed. It’s a rickety structure because it’s not directly from our experiences and the distrust, but we need it anyway to quiet our minds. And we need to lean in and believe it, for our own sake. To find peace. But here is the kicker: you only do this once. It’s hard and painful work. If your WS lies or omits and that comes out after you’ve done this hard internal construction, you give them the🖕🖕and you don’t accept it anymore. No more amnesty, it’s go time.

That, my friend, is what I have come to believe about this from my time here. I hope it helps.

Hi Groot,

I know what you mean! I sent a letter to my WH just the other day after we had a huge discussion with regards to our future and what options were as we are just short of a year out now and I promised to tell him what I decided. I have decided to stay married but only in a legal sense. To me the ‘traditional’ marriage is now dead but we will continue on as any other married couple.

But one thing I said to him is that if this is the path we can choose I will still ask questions for as long as I like and there may be triggers that he will have to deal with until the end of our days. He agreed.

Lucky for him cause today I spiralled and I was hyper focused on AP. BUT for some reason mid-spiral I said ‘fuck no’ she does not get any more power. She is nothing and no one and she will not take anymore of my good energy. We shall see how long that last. I told him I need time to process these feelings and to give me the space to do so.

I still ask questions but they have to be ‘good’ questions. I now don’t need to know what colour undies she was wearing when he first fucked her. But I may still need to know if he still has thoughts of the affair etc.

Now as for you feeling like trash - no way!!!! I don’t know when I stopped feeling that way but I do know when I think of her and him I scoff at how pathetic they both are. I’m not fucking worthless.

If we are so worthless they wouldn’t be fighting so hard to keep us. It’s just all them - how they love themselves more than anyone else and will put their need in front of ours. Shit as that is - that’s the truth. Now they just got to prove they can change and are worthy of a second chance.

disclosure is like the world’s shittiest game of battleship if it is approached like the BS has to ask just the right question to spark an answer from the WS. It’s truly crazy making because there is a perverse but painful satisfaction in getting a "hit" and then endless suspicion when you are told you have a "miss", but you don’t actually trust them.

O my god Ink, this Is SO spot on! THIS is what life with a WH feels like. Every time you check their phone you have this exact feeling. It's a miss but you don't trut it completely. Every time you ask any question relating to AP or the A it's this exakt same feeling and this describes it so perfectly. It's a horrble feeling and I do think that the only way to eventually get away from it is to stop playing battleship, it never gives me any sense of real relief or trust anyways.

ty Ink that makes sense, I had to let it sink in a bit but you make perfect sense.

I also know I am not trash, I know my worth but in his eyes at that moment in time I felt like trash to HIM and that is a very very very hard thing to let go.

Last night he went golfing with our oldest D, I cleaned up our front yard with the littles and really deep cleaned the house trying to avoid spiraling bc I wanted my D to have fun and if i spiraled i would have blown up his phone, taking his focus off of her and that isn't fair for her.

When he came home I was crying in the shower and went to bed without a word to him, he brought me some food and I didnt eat it but he put it in the fridge for me. It was a rough night for sure but today I don't feel as bad as I did yesterday.

I dont want to ask stupid questions that will only hurt me and that don't serve a purpose and I am getting better at that over time but some days maybe I feel like I see my H changing for the better and I get hope and then I feel like I can't have hope and I have to dig.

At least I am seeing it and I am doing it less. I guess it will just take time.

Thank you for all the responses

It will take time, but remember he is the one who cheated, his opinions of you are null and void. Being worried about how he sees you and everything is a dangerous path to go down. If he starts calling you names or pushing your boundaries, if you are so concerned about how he feels about you it’s
easy to cave in and be walked all over again. I am not being critical, I am guilty of this myself and tolerated way more intolerant behavior than I ever should have.

I also want to give you a warning, most cheaters are always on their best behavior in the early stages, but it’s very common for them to start regression back. Not that they will cheat again, but the lack of empathy,
Selfishness, not respecting boundaries.

Maybe this is pedantic, but I take issue with the use of trigger here. A memory or mental connection/association isn't a 'trigger'. For something to be a trigger in this context, there needs to be trauma. In this context, it compares the WS's association of a... nailpolish colour with a specific person... with the BS's emotional trauma which often activates intesene emotional reactions and physical symptoms (fight/flight etc). Just because something reminds your husband of his AP, does not elevate it to some special status. You don't need to avoid it or handle it with kid gloves or avoid it. To call his memories/associations a 'trigger' lessens the meaning in your relationship with what you are actually experiencing when YOU experience a true trigger. I know you know that and that is not what this is about really, but food for though.

(Sorry back to the issue at hand). At this point, asking him what reminds her of you is probably painshopping (particularly if you've already asked him this question several times before - and it sounds like you have). It's essentially punishing ourselves on purpose to feel some sort of validation or justification for our pain/negative emotions. You specifically Groot - are addicted to the psychological drama and the righteousness of having been wronged (this has been a theme for you) and so you you go looking for a fight. Depression and sadness feels bad and so you self-soothe with the dopamine hit that comes from the fight. I imagine it doesn't hurt that that is quickly followed by the comfort/assurance your husband likely attempts to provide when you're activated (or triggered - ha!). If nothing else, it distracts you from the colossal pain of sadness. It's kind of like how people cut or self-harm to distract themselves from their real problems.

Don't get me wrong. I did it too. I painshopped and then picked fights with the best of them. I was more comfortable with anger than sadness and so I stayed there too long sometimes. To me, anger felt more productive and powerful than sad. Sometimes I think I was trying to test my husband to see just how much he'd put up with as some sort of loyalty test to prove he wasn't really all in. It was bad and ugly and destructive. If you keep picking a scab, you can never heal. Eventually I realized that I was only hurting myself and if I actually wanted to R my marriage, I needed to be an equal participant in it and that meant that I needed to show up with vulnerability. That was, after all, what I was asking my husband to do, and it is pretty difficult to be vulnerable, and productive and collaborative if I kept showing up to the table with (proverbial) bazookas. I stopped giving myself carte blanche to spiral. That doesn't mean rugsweeping, and I wasn't perfect about it, but I made the effort.

How am I supposed to cope with his answers?

Not every question needs to be asked, and not every answer needs a reaction. Ask yourself before you ask - why am I asking this question. Do I need the answer? Does it actually matter? Am I painshopping? Am I just looking for a fight?

Whoooooaaaa emergent. Holy hell.

That’s some truth I needed to hear!

That is EXACTLY what I am doing but I just couldn’t put words to it. I don’t know how to stop it. I don’t know how to go back to a normal life because there is such a fine line between rug sweeping and working on healing.

I would much rather feel anger than hurt and sadnesss and yes I love the validation. Ugh I hate what I’m doing.

It’s become such an addiction that keeps me away from the issues I have to face.

ETA.

I get severe depression if I allow myself to feel sad. As a teenager I slept 12 hours because I didn’t want to be awake FOO issues so I know if I allow myself to really feel sad to really feel what he’s done then it could be very very bad for me. I’ve learned that I have deflected a lot of my life to avoid issues too hard for me to face. I am working on this in counseling but it’s been hard

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 12:54 AM, Friday, July 12th]

Emergent and Groot…..

I honestly have the hardest time differentiating between rug sweeping and living now. So I do lose my shit and perhaps for the same reasons you have mentioned.

What are some examples of rug sweeping vs living whilst healing?

I'm so glad to hear that you are doing the hard work to build some tools for your depression. It really is hard work.

I hate feeling like I wasn’t good enough. I hate feeling like I have to compete with trash.

While I totally, totally understand this feeling, I really do, please remind yourself that his affair was never about you. It wasn't about anything you were lacking; it was about what he was lacking. It wasn't about a competition. He just went with first new person who fed his lack. It was about brain feel-good chemicals for him.

It was self-centered and thoughtless. It was all about him, sadly, not you.

I don’t know how to stop it. I don’t know how to go back to a normal life because there is such a fine line between rug sweeping and working on healing.

Groot, it's fascinating to read someone else so distinctly put words to what you yourself are feeling as well! This is the same issue I am struggling so much with. I am so afraid of rug sweeping that I sabotage any good times we have with picking a fight. My WH doesn't validate me when that happens, in fact he shuts down and retreats for a while until he approaches me again because he has such a hard time handling it, but I still can not stop it. Letting my guard down, letting in any happiness feels too scary and any slight movement towards moving on, I think stop! you are rugsweeping, in denial, don't forget he's a cheater and a liar, keep your guard up!

I hope someone answers your question on the difference between rugsweeping and healing , because I sure would like to know the answer as well. I want to move on, I want to start letting the pain go bit by bit, I want to start putting some of the weight of this mess down, but then I get scared and the safer choice is to pick a fight.

If you keep picking a scab, you can never heal. Eventually I realized that I was only hurting myself and if I actually wanted to R my marriage, I needed to be an equal participant in it and that meant that I needed to show up with vulnerability. That was, after all, what I was asking my husband to do, and it is pretty difficult to be vulnerable, and productive and collaborative if I kept showing up to the table with (proverbial) bazookas. I stopped giving myself carte blanche to spiral. That doesn't mean rugsweeping, and I wasn't perfect about it, but I made the effort.

This is pure gold. The question is HOW does one get to this? Understanding its where you need to go is one thing, but the how still escapes me.

I think what you are doing and experiencing is normal. Many of us as Betrayed partners did this for well into year 2 of recovery. Its part of getting to acceptance and self healing.
I do agree that at some point it's healthy to just stop asking any question that comes to mind. Instead ask how knowing the answer will change or effect you and your healing. If it is not impactful then set it aside. I kept a notepad for 3 years where I would write these questions down and give myself a few days to a week. If it still felt important then I would ask.
But you have to get yourself to a place where you are not questioning why you weren't enough and truly accept that his choices had zero to do with who you are.
I don't know if you are in therapy but I do believe you are far enough out to try CBT or DBT.
When you heal you more it makes it a lot easier to move forward and heal the M.

I know we are not rugsweeping but it is hard to ALWAYS feel that way, I told my H last night the advice I got here and how it was so true.
I ask him a lot if he feels like he "got away with something" because that is how I feel.

I explained to him that I don't want him to forget or think that I have forgiven him so on the really good days, we have to follow up with bad days and he said he understood that feeling and isn't mad at all.

But I am mad. I am mad that I feel I have to do that. I am mad that he put me in this position and that he is being so patient with me and here I am punishing not him but really myself.

I am mad that if I allow us to have a good day when he smiles or laughs I think he doesn't deserve that. When he goes golfing with our oldest and they bond, I think he also doesn't deserve that. I do NOT tell him these things in that way but I do tell him that I feel like seeing him happy while I am hurting is hard for me. He tells me that he also is hurting but we are allowed to escape that pain for a bit for the sake of our kids and family and I don't think I am there with him yet. I guess I should be thankful he can because our kids have bonded with him a lot this past year.

We talk about the A a lot and he tells me all the time how much he loves us and how thankful he is to be here and how what he did was despicable and that he never wants to be that person again at the same time I know that I am also prolonging his healing and mine.

I know this isn't popular here but he also has issues and he is trying to work on them and I know if I was trying to work on me the last thing I would want was someone throwing what i did in my face in a mean way. talking about it is one thing but being mean isn't something I want to be towards him right now.

I am going to give myself grace there because every day I get BETTER, I go longer stretches without spiraling, I communicate more with him on how I am feeling, and I do not tolerate much of anything.

With that being said, I see the actions, I see the changes, I see the vulnerability from him and for the first time ever, I think he is experiencing love the way it always should have been.

Porn really did warp his thinking and feelings towards love.

I see the actions and the changes but my brain is stuck. He did TT me for months so I know my brain hasn't let me feel safe yet, and I get that.

The way that I look at it is his actions don't mean much to me yet.... Some days they do and I think very highly of him but those moments pass way too quick and then I see the monster from last summer buried deep down in there somewhere, he was capable of doing this at one point. Do I think he ever would again? No but that doesn't fix what he did and no amount of work he does now will ever change what he did then and maybe I can't live with staying with him. He never gets defensive if I bring up the A unless I do it when our oldest is in hearing range and then I stop till shes gone far enough away, he answers my questions and tells me all the things he hated about himself then but after that I DO NOT feel better, so clearly that isn't working and I need to just stop. Nothing seems to help me and I am sure that reason is because I eventually have to stand up and help myself by making my own changes.

I am trying to take it day by day, and he tells me all the time that his hope is that one day his actions and words will mean something but he knows right now they do not and he is ok with continuing without any recognition but I don't like how I feel, i don't like the hollowness, the emptiness, the anger, the sadness and I feel like a hamster on a hamster wheel , running like hell towards something but running in place. My feelings are wild and I know soon they will even out and they will go one of two ways, this is just brutal.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 3:33 PM, Friday, July 12th]

One of the top PTSD treatments now is called RTM (reconsolidation of traumatic memories). Worth a Google. It works because when you recall a long-term memory, you modify it. RTM takes advantage of this fact by having you recall a traumatic memory, and then modifying that memory in a certain way such that when you recall it again, it’s disconnected from the trauma. That’s the theory, and then has proven highly effective at treating PTSD.

I assume this can work in reverse too. You can probably bring in memories that are nontraumatic and then modify them in a certain way so that you associate trauma with them. That way when you recall them later, they’ll be associated with the trauma. In short, you can create new triggers.

I worry that maybe you are doing this, Groot.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 7:52 PM, Friday, July 12th]

House of Plane, I reallllllllllly do not want to do that.

I hope I am not?

I will say that my "triggers" have not gotten better but it hasn't been a year yet and he TT me to death.
But some have gotten better. He can close doors and I am not bothered, he can go places and I do not worry, it is her name, the area they had their A, shows with infidelity, if he has his phone hidden when he is typing, sitting on his phone in the car talking, things like that.

At the beginning I couldn't even shower without feeling some type of way bc they showered together, that is gone.

I still avoid certain streets, restaurants, and names. Every single photo I have during his A is hidden in my phone, I deleted my SM so I have no memories that pop up.

Yes, I know I need to take back memories, places, and things but I am still not ready.

Iam working with my therapist on EMDR but due to financial issues I had to cut back. I go in a few weeks.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 7:59 PM, Friday, July 12th]

I know this isn't popular here but he also has issues and he is trying to work on them and I know if I was trying to work on me the last thing I would want was someone throwing what i did in my face in a mean way.

Hikingout helped me to have patience with this element (for better or worse in my story ) by helping me to see that the WS needs to get right with themselves before they are much good to their BS. We absolutely DESERVE the selfless empathetic supporter in the throes of our trauma, but usually the WS isn’t in any place to give it, cause you know, they are a selfish Judas. It’s a tricky balance in the aftermath of d-day. There is what we deserve and what is possible, and those are often very different. We can expect the WS to be putting massive effort to make progress, but that might not be very visible to us as the first thing they probably need to do is stop their own internal bleeding.

He never gets defensive if I bring up the A

That is really good. It’s not everything, but it’s a great sign, IMO.

he answers my questions and tells me all the things he hated about himself then but after that I DO NOT feel better, so clearly that isn't working and I need to just stop.

Answering questions isn’t like taking a pain killer, it’s more like physical therapy. You probably feel worse right after a session and it takes fucking forever to see results. But you will. You are giving your mind the building blocks it is asking for to create your house of cards and your ruminations are the construction process. You are making progress, and it takes time.

Also, emergent is a total bad ass, isn’t she? She dropped some fucking awesome truth bombs on me that I’ve never forgotten, just wise as all get out.