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I read this from time to time. For me, it's very difficult from a BS what it means to "make amends". If my ww were to ask me what that actually would entail, I would feel guilty by submitting a list. This is probably because she gets defensive when I go down a path like that. In all honesty, for me "making amends" would be my ww taking the initiative to do positive thing to solidify the relationship and strengthen the bond. Not really something you could write on a list.

I guess this question is mostly aimed at former wayward who have successfully recovered. What does making amends look like on your side of the fence.

[This message edited by Copingmybest at 10:47 AM, Saturday, July 13th]

I asked my WH this question last night.

Some background: very early in our marriage, in 1976, my husband arranged a swinging situation without informing me. It didn’t go well, I cried when it began, and nothing went further than the start of kissing.

As a result, my reaction was a ONS, stupid, yes. I was 19, upset, angry, and made extremely bad choices. Choices. I never made that kind of choice again.

My WH had a revenge ONS about a week later.

Since that time, I know of six other affairs he has had. Six. Choices he made.

So we are talking about making amends here.

I asked him what I could do to make amends for the ONS, or if his affairs were ongoing revenge? He says no, his affairs belong to him, and weren’t revenge.

What does "making amends" look like to someone, to him? To me?

He says he hasn’t ever thought about it. I don’t know that I have either, truly.

There’s not really an act I could do, is there? Could I punish myself in some way? Harm myself? Would that help make amends?

Would it help if I let him harm me physically?

Would it help if I let him destroy something of mine, like tear up my studio, take a hammer to my car? Burn all my clothes?

Would it help if I took out an ad in the New York Times confessing all of my faults and shortcomings, confessing the affair, and taking full and complete responsibility?

Should I divorce him, giving him 100% of all marital assets, allowing me nothing? Would that be penance enough? Then, if he so chose, he could then decide to pursue me again, or anyone else. His choice.

I don’t have any idea. But at this point, I’m leaning toward walking away completely naked as the only thing that seems like "enough".

To me, making amends means to basically make it up to someone. Make what they did better,by doing a,b c, and d.

There are no amends that can be made, to make what they did palatable.

They don't have a time machine.

They can do the work, be faithful, become safe,etc. But they can't change what they did.

Amends is a farce.

It's part of the shit sandwich a BS has to choke down,in order to reconcile. (Yes. I know some don't believe there is a shit sandwich, but I absolutely believe it. If you don't, that's ok)

IDK ... I ruined a friend's beach chair. I bought him a new one. He got a new chair to replace an old one. Not a bad exchange. Amends made.

What can my W do to make amends for her A, though? There's no way I can think of to replace what she took away. I can't imagine how any WS can replace what they took from their BS.

IMO, the best she can do is stay honest, learn to validate herself, thereby preventing another A in the future, and work to keep our M going. I've had to stay honest, validate myself so as to keep from building resentment over day to day issues, and work to keep our M going.

Should I divorce him, giving him 100% of all marital assets, allowing me nothing? Would that be penance enough?

Well, if that's proper amends, should he do the same?

He's right. His first A - that you know of - was his choice. It came after yours, but that's irrelevant, IMO.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:40 PM, Saturday, July 13th]

5Decades.

There’s not really an act I could do, is there?

You could dedicate yourself to becoming a better human being?

Just work to make being a better person a habit.

I suppose being a faithful wife since 1976 would count as "being a better person", so that should have sufficed. Unfortunately it must not have, if his subsequent six affairs are his "revenge".

Anyway, making amends for this isn’t something I think anyone can do. A person who has been betrayed can’t be made whole again. The memories and the pain will follow them forever, no matter the amount of forgiveness they give, or the amends paid. That scar is going to be there, whether visible to others or only inside their own eyes.

At the end of the day we as a BS choose to stay with the knowledge that our partners haves cheated on us. We choose to try and move forward the best we can and we ask for our partners to not continue shitty behaviours. We may ask for IC, NC and other specified boundaries.

If I then choose to do the same behaviour as my WS or WP then I am no better than them. Just because my WS chose to cheat doesn’t then automatically give me the right to do the same (as tempting as that may be).

Your husband having ‘6 revenge affairs’ is an excuse. He should have just left you at the beginning of this was going to be the case. I think it sounds like you have made ‘amends’. But I also agree as a BS that I will never be free of the pain or memory of the hurt my WH has imposed on me. No matter what he does!

He put you, personally, YOU, into an uninformed, non-consensual, unanticipated, non-negotiated, group sex situation at the ripe old age of fucking 19 years old.

Like, I've and likely we've, as in many/most of us, have known of or at least heard about 29 year olds, 39 year olds, 49 year olds, 59 year olds, even 69 year olds (I was going to exclude 79 year olds, but adult homes and assisted living communities continue to have some of the highest new transmission rates of STDs) who have had spectacular melt downs and not coped particularly well with group sex, even if it was fully informed and fully consensual and not SURPRISE! GROUP SEX!!!

You had group sex sprung on you like the OG version of a BAD IDEA SURPRISE PARTY! at AGE 19.

Your 'special relationship' with your early on, possibly even FIRST 'Special Person' got devalued and 'un-specialed' in a heartbeat. And so did YOU.

You did what any (understandably) short sighted 19 year old would do: you dished it right back.

IMHO, OK, honestly not unreasonable, at age 19, unmarried, no kids. (That's going to be an unpopular opinion on SI for a number of reasons, all valid.)

Your problem is between you and yourself.

You allowed his boneheaded, selfish, manupulative move to push you into a place and into an action that you would not have chosen on your own, for yourself.

You had the unpleasant but instructive lesson of experiencing that first hand.

It was not who you were, it is not who you are.

This is the nuanced, unanticipated, poorly understood experience of 'the regrets of revenge.'

You were not, and apparently are not, a naturally promiscuous person.

(No offense to those who are naturally, of their own informed choice, responsibly, honestly, maturely promiscuos.)

Sex with an outside party, and especially for a third degree, adjunct reason (revenge) doesn't work for you.

It violated your personal space. It cheapened you. That wasn't, and it's not, OK with you.

You learned about that, and about yourself.

And *that part* is not a problem at all.

That, is A Good Thing.

And, you learned it at the ripe old age of 19.

THAT. IS. HUGE.

Congratulate yourself!

It takes many if not most people *DECADES* to figure that out.

Your partner/husband went on to have six (6) affairs.

Obvs, at that time at least, sexual monogamy was not his thing.

Gonna bet, sitting here from this perspective, that had *exactly zero* to do with you.

He would have done the same regardless, to anyone else, with anyone else in his life.

Is he still the same guy?

Does he still want the same stimuli, the same experiences, the same exposure?

Or, has he evolved?

Do you feel safe right now?

Can you forgive and most importantly live with the flotsam and jetsam from your early relationship?

IMHO, if not, that's OK too. (I continue to struggle with those exact issues myself, so I do understand.)

He's told you that your ONS did not cause his six affairs.

That seems remarkably honest to me.

Work with that, try to understand what that means in the context of a long term relationship, which obvs has many other inputs over time.

In SI parlance, revenge affairs/involvements and especially one night stands are known as 'Mad Hatters' or 'mad hattering,' i.e. Your significant other did it, so you 'evened the score,' you did it too, SO HOW DOES THAT FEEL??? In very superficial ways this is somewhat similar to your situation, but IMHO, 'mad hattering' typically involves much more 'sunk cost' at that very moment of the revenge infidelity: marriage, legal agreements, perhaps children, comingled finances, property.

NOT dating, discovery/self-discovery, burgeoning sexuality, and bungling along through the end stages of adolescence with tenuous commitments.

Shit happens. =(

(Hubs 'adolescent OOPSIE! happened five years into marraige with comingled finances, two babies in tow, and under contract/in escrow for our first house. IT WAS A GIANT HEAD FUCK WHEN IT HAPPENED. AND IT WAS DISTINCTLY DISHONEST AND *NOT CONSENSUAL.* BONUS ROUND I ONLY FOUND OUT ABOUT THE TRUE EXTENT OF IT A FEW YEARS AGO. CUE GIGANTONORMOUS HEAD FUCK.)

Fortunately (I guess it's 'fortunate,' LOOK AT ME, I'M HERE ON SI) Hubs seemed/seems to have felt as badly about that incident both then and going forward as I now do.

He knew the whole of it as soon as it happened, as soon as it was over, so he's felt like shit about it for many years.

I've only had that particular privilege of feeling like shit about it for the past few years.

Still, head fuck.

I see no indication that infidelity in particular was repeated, although General Immaturities and Low Emotional Intelligence (THANKS, FOO!) plagued us for decades.

Much better now, ironically, BECAUSE I BLEW THE FUCK UP AND BLEW UP OUR WORLD after discovering the true nature of that long ago infidelity.

NO. MORE. RUG. SWEEPING.

YMMV.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 2:59 AM, Sunday, July 14th]

This seems to have turned into an interesting talking point. I’ve read numerous times that the wayward must try to "make amends", but I could not really wrap my head around what that would be. I guess that’s why I was asking other waywards what it may have meant to them. For me, I truly refuse to knowingly wrong someone. If I find I have wronged someone unintentionally, for me, I must perform good deeds, and or positive actions to make right what I have done wrong. There’s no specific thing or list of things I can do, but for me, I must do things right by them above and beyond the wrong that I may have caused to make things right. It’s not a case of one upmanship for me, it’s more the level of apology I try to express by going further than the average person may consider what is needed to even the score, so to speak. It would appear that there really is no such thing as "making amends". It seems that would be more of an idea of just doing the right thing and being a better person. It’s more like an indescribable theory.

I was raised with the Roman Catholic spiritual tradition. There is a sacrament called the Act of Contrition - or it was then. It involved atoning for sin.

It's a process. One that many people outside the religion didn't understand. It was the major part of Catholicism that people wanted to argue over with me. It's probably misunderstood. The main prayer is different now. Back then, it started, "Oh my God, I'm heartly sorry..." It ended with ," ...And I resolve, with the help of Thy Grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen."

I don't practice Roman Catholicism now. Yet, that is still how I think of contrition and amends. In the end, you are changing your life in a way that you won't commit the sin. It's a three-step process: 1.) You confess. 2.) You do penance. 3.) You amend your life.

Recently, I've also been watching the TV show, "Mom". It's about several women in Alcoholics Anonymous. In season 8, they had a few shows on "amends". It was interesting. Before that, I always thought AA just gave surficial treatment and just wanted them to give apologies as amends.

Well first your WW should make amends by not being defensive. Won’t happen will it? She can’t do that she can’t actually make amends.

Isn’t it interesting how almost all cheats have the same personality set? Charm, defensiveness and rage, and self pity.

Look man, hear me out. A normal relationship doesn’t make you walk on glass to get basic decency, especially post affair.

Even if she never cheats again, you deserve better.

Making amends. Righting the wrong. Doing things to show the betrayed you recognize the pain you have caused and are doing everything to alleviate the pain.

Trying to be a better person in communication.

Being honest.

Being accountable.

Being aware of others.

Not always putting yourself first.

Being open and transparent.

Having morals and values that put the family/marriage as a top priority. Not your friends. Not your boat or golf game or fancy vacation or designer handbag or all of the "other stuff".

But above all, doing everything to help the betrayed heal.

Doing things to show the betrayed you recognize the pain you have caused

I was just discussing this in therapy yesterday. I told my IC that I like coming to SI to discuss my feelings and pain because most everyone here responds with acknowledgement and understanding of what I'm dealing with. It's so comforting knowing that others "get it" and announce how they are here for you to lean on in your time of need. This is something I don't get from my ww. I appreciate all of you.

Coping,

Hey man I hear you. My ex was the absolute worst about hearing me. She’d give a big talk about how she would listen and not get defensive, only to do neither of those things. I know you are getting stronger every day, hear me. Your WW doesn’t get it and she never will, and is that really someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with? You want her by your side if you get sick? With that lack of empathy and her complete self absorbed attitude?

Yeah, I got lucky that I found the smoking gun and made my decision easy. But honestly it never should have come to that. My ex has been treating me horribly these last two years and I should have ended it a long time ago. Being on the other side is so much better man. I promise. You don’t need to wait like I did to find proof. It doesn’t matter at all if your WW is still affairing or not.

Being treated like the way you are especially by a cheater is so disrespectful and not what a normal marriage is.

Find strength brother.

I am so glad that I am finally escaping my ex

I don’t think it is ever possible to truly "make amends" to a Betrayed Spouse. That’s why reconciliation is a gift.

All we can do as Waywards is to try to become a spouse that is worthy of that gift. That means figuring out and healing whatever in you is broken and then being better in the new marriage that you are building.

Merriam-Webster defines making amends as "to do something to correct a mistake that one has made or a bad situation that one has caused."

I think there are a lot of things that a WS can and should do if they wish to R with their partner, but there is nothing that can be done to truly "make it up" to a partner – certainly not in the short term. You can’t unfuck another person after all.

But maybe I’m just being persnickety with the term "amends". I suppose acting with true remorse – ie. acknowledging wrongdoing and character defects and taking responsibility for changing them and learning to live in a way that your actions and values align – is roughly the same thing. There are no grand gestures or shortcuts to do it though. It’s mostly about dedicating yourself to becoming a better person and a better partner – about dedicating yourself to radical honesty (in ALL things), whether it is uncomfortable or causes a fight or not. Like everything else, it’s consistency over time.

One of the things I really struggled with when deciding to R was that I felt like I was sacrificing my own core values by staying with someone who betrayed me. In MC, one of the things my husband and I discussed was him making it a goal of his to act in such a way that I would not only not regret my decision to R, but that I would actually be proud of it one day. And I am….it took years to get here of course, but here I am. When I think about making amends - that’s what comes to mind for me.

All we can do as Waywards is to try to become a spouse that is worthy of that gift.

Agree.

I sort of agree that "full amends" cannot be made. I think "earned forgiveness" is possible, but I have always said that something like complete redemption, absolution, a return to before the A isn't possible.

The BS, in attempting R is not saying "I expect you to make up for the A, and eventually we will be all square". It's much closer to "I accept that you have broken my trust forever, but I'm willing to build a new relationship with you with that as a part of our history based on the belief that you can reform your thinking to become a safe partner."

To me, there is no making amends for an affair. There is nothing my WH can do to restore what he destroyed, to give back what he took from me. We may be able to restore our relationship, but it will forever include his cheating and lying as part of the fabric. It can never go away . Becoming a better person, doing the right thing, being honest and true to his values is all great, but it is what a person should strive to do always, not just after an affair. It is being who he always should have been, not making amends.

I do however expect from my WH to make amends for the time he stole from me, from our family. That is something he can do and while it will not make the affair go away, his willingness to do so signals to me that he is ready to be less selfish and that after a long period of only thinking about himself and his needs, he is finaly putting me and the kids first. His affair was mostly conducted in work hours, but there were some trips with the AP, stolen afternoons, when I believed he was at work and was happy to take care for everything at home to help him, some evenings/nights, when he was supposedly at parties with coworkers, etc. In 9 years that is a lot of time, when he should have been there for his family, but was not. And he can make amends for that time. I expect from him to make us a priority and make time for us every day, even at the expense of his hobbies or socializing with his friends. I don't expect him to be home all the time, but our family plans should trump anything else (except maybe work emergencies). And he does most of the cooking and cleaning at home now. We used to divide chores in half, now he does more than his share. And I don't feel at least bad about it, because I did more than mine when he was fucking others. I have no problem relaxing after work and letting him cook dinner for the kids and clean the kitchen, even if he is just as tired or more than I am.

[This message edited by ZetaCephei at 7:39 AM, Wednesday, July 17th]

I would not only not regret my decision to R, but that I would actually be proud of it one day

This was discussed toward the end of my Sunday morning session. My IC asked if I currently had any regrets and I said I currently regret spending the last 3-1/3 years in R, but if she can get into therapy and make progress on herself then no, I’ll not regret the 3+ years I’ve spent offering the gift of R. Nothing good in life ever comes easy, so I’m guessing true Reconciliation/recovery must be pretty fucking good. It has to be!

I think of it less as amends and more as:

Taking accountability
Becoming intentional
Being the spouse you should have always been all along
Learning what it means to love and actively doing it.
Becoming reliable and committed to personal growth.
Long term consistency in all these things

I think a ws who does these things can be redeemed and be shown grace.

I am responsible for my side of the healing, h is responsible for his. And ultimately I am responsible for showing him I am worth staying married to. It’s intangible because it’s a composite of earning back trust and love. This is so personal to the couple what that might look like.

I think in the end if the ws can’t be a better spouse then you owe it to yourself to be free of them. Even if they can be a better spouse sometimes there is too much damage to repair in the relationship and you still need to move on.
You have to listen to yourself closely for a long time to keep establishing what you need and want, and this will bring clarity over time.

To me, you are talking about the point that a bs comes to that they feel safe, secure, loved, and valued in an unmistakable way that grace can be found. The joy of what the relationship has become outweighs experiences of the past. This is why it takes years. In the meantime, those bs who spend that time working on their relationship with themselves will not only do better in making the right decisions for oneself, but will have more confidence that they will be able to handle whatever comes in the future. This also helps with grace because how you feel will never be based entirely on them but in that act of continuously advocating for yourself.

A shorter way of saying this is the amends have to be weighty enough that you feel generous enough to give the grace. But in any scenario if you learn to have an amazing relationship with yourself, give yourself the grace first, you will have the clarity you need to make the right decisions for yourself.