SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm sorry you saw your W fucking your friend. As awful as you feel, note you can recover, whether you D or R.

*****

I find a number of ideas expressed in this thread to be unconducive to recovery, and I believe recovery has to start (and continue) before one can successfully R or D. Note that it's the ideas that I object to.

*****

A reco: Make healing yourself a goal. You can control that. You can't control whether you D or R - your WS can have an effect on that decision, and you can't control her. All you know is that you can't trust her now.

*****

My reco is to start with yourself. No matter what, D & R are extremely difficult. If you figure out what you want and go for that (or as close as you can get) before choosing D/R, you'll make your path a little easier. A good therapist can help you figure out what you want and perhaps make good guesses about the likelihood of achieving it. Knowing what you want helps recovery, though, even if it's unobtainable.

At this point, all you know about your WS is what she says, and you can't trust that, because your best bet is to assume she's working for herself, and she'll choose what's best for herself when and where that conflicts with what is best for your or your M or your kids.

So start with yourself and what you want. If you want D, you'll save yourself a lot of time and energy by making that clear now and going for D directly.

Whatever you do, make your decision from your strengths. Don't let fear drive you. The fear is usually of the unknown, and the only way you can deal with that is to out it aside, because none of us knows the future. A good therapist can help conquer fear. Remember: courage is saddling up even when you're afraid.

*****

A good MC can help. Most MCs use a system-based approach, and that won't help you, but some MCs will help you deal with the A first. Some MCs will hold the WS to account from the start, and they'll keep you talking about the A until you're done talking. That type of MC can help you a lot even now.

*****

There's no magic timeline for deciding between D & R. For me, committing 90 days from d-day worked fine. Others needed or took longer. Remember: If R isn't working out for you, you can call an end to at any time.

You're making a decision that will impact decades of your life and those of your kids. It's worth taking time to figure out what you want before acting.

'Ready! aim! fire!' is more likely to end up well for you than 'Fire!'

If you want R, my reco is:

Start R only if your WS is as committed to R as you are.
Start R only if your WS is committed to doing the work necessary for changing from cheater to good partner.
Start R only if your WS commits to becoming honest - no more lies, answers all your questions.
Start R only if your WS commits to keeping you informed of activities, companions, and locations at virtually all times.
Start R only if your WS allows complete access to personal electronics and digital activities.

If you want R, develop your own requirements, and end R if your WS doesn't follow through on commitments.

And Remember: If R isn't working out for you, you can call an end to at any time.

*****

So many betrayed men take the unfortunate path of trying to put the M back together at all costs….

Note that returning to the old M is returning to an M that has known vulnerabilities to infidelity. My reco: Go for a new M that’s better than the old one. Some people believe that's unattainable; others say it is, but it takes work and some luck, too.

*****

the "successful" betrayed (that is, those who come out the best after having been subjected to this living hell), are unanimously those who take a strong, decisive path....

The decisiveness that works best is being true to yourself, being honest with yourself and others, finding your own way through this.

It's best not to react; rather, it's best to make conscious choices. Wanting to beat the shit out of your (ex-?)friend and/or your W makes perfect sense. Deciding not to also makes perfect sense.

Wanting to control the sitch is normal - but it's best to realize you can control only yourself.

*****

Demand she WRITE a FULLY DETAILED timeline. Tell her she has 24 hours to write EVERY interaction, every text, every feeling, who said what, who initiated what, every sexual innuendo, every sexual act they did, along with the when, where, how, etc. ... if you discover she’s not disclosed 100% the first time, it’s game over and straight to D.

I couldn't do that for today's interactions with my W.

This is not how people think, remember, or write. That's recognized by the later direction to give your WS at least 2 more chances to add to the timeline.

IOW, don't set requirements that can't be satisfied. Be honest about what you ask for.

*****

Then tell her she will pay for and sit for a polygraph where she will be asked to confirm the timeline as 100% accurate and 100% comprehensive for everything that happened.

No one can be sure a TL for an A is 100% accurate and complete. The only honest answer is, 'No.'

*****

I would tell her that you are initiating D.

This is controversial, but I disagree with this for a few reasons.

Above all, I believe the BS's healing is the paramount need after being betrayed, and even just filing for D is an unnecessary complication unless D is your intention. If Unthought does this, he's going to have to divert some energy away from healing and gathering the documentation for filing. No one needs that when buried in the pain of being betrayed.

There's no way of knowing how Mrs. Unthought will respond, but the odds are that response will distract from Unthought's main task - healing.

Third, why pay the price for filing, especially if you have to find an attorney, unless you mean to D? Filing jsut in case sounds like filing out of fear. Filing as a tactic is - sorry - weak in the extreme.

If I need to file to get my W to get straight, I can't possibly think her decision is reliable. Besides, I wanted my W to choose me freely. Putting something she can see as a gun to her head is the opposite of giving her a free choice.

*****

Insist she informs both of your families of exactly what she’s done.

If you decide on R, this is likely to make R more difficult than if you've kept it private. By all means, share with people you want to share with. By all means, protect yourself.

Sharing the infidelity, however, is no protection IRL against being accused of DV. Some people make false claims of DV, but I suspect it's mainly from people under extreme stress ... perhaps from a woman under threat of a D that she doesn't want.

*****

Tell her it’s ON HER to "fix this". You will NOT be feeding her books to read, therapists to work with, etc.

The problem is that it's not the WS's to fix.

The WS is definitely is in charge for their own healing. To R - just to live a good life - the WS needs to change from betrayer to good partner.

But the BS has a lot of work to do - on themself. Without doing that healing, the BS can't really heal or R. If, as asserted in the quote, it's on the WS to fix, the BS has to follow the WS - but I keep asserting that the BS is better off following their own path, irrespective of what the WS does.

Sure, I'd advise a BS with an unremorseful WS to D, but I'm also for the BS D'ing if the BS wants to D/if the BS simply doesn't want to spend the rest of their life with the WS no matter how remorseful the WS may be. (That's buried in words somewhere, but there general principle of stating the onus is on the WS should never have been stated that way.

And R is a cooperative venture. The new M has to serve both partners. That means both partners need to make their wants known and make conscious choices about how they'll get what they want form the new M.

*****

I would ask her to go live elsewhere....

Yes, the WS is a trigger for a BS in R, but separating has some disadvantages.

First, IMO the BS needs to communicate a LOT with the WS to gather the info necessary for the D/R decision. The non-verbals say more than just the words, and one doesn't get the non-verbals except face-to-face.

Second, since R is likely to involve living together, it's best for the BS to test their ability to live with the triggers.

Third, if R involves living together, separating while deciding means making the decision while living in an artificial environment. IMO, it's much better to start as one hopes to end. If one hops to end living together, live together to see how it works out. Otherwise, separate.

Fourth, a remorseful WS will provide triggers but will also provide support. If you're separated, that support may not be available when one wants it. It's easier to wake a partner up in the middle of the night than to clear one's head to make a phone call. It's also easier to take in support when you're next to each other than on the phone. It's easier to get back to sleep, too.

Damn, that’s horrific. It’s a traumatic thing to see your spouse having sex with another person.

Wishing you strength. So much work in front of your wife. So much for you to unravel.

Suffice to add - apart from confirming details with the OBS - you should cut these people out of your life. Forever.

I’m so sorry.

Listen to the people here they can really help you.

I think you need to read gr8tful post again.

Your wife needs consequences.

If you try to move past this she will start jerking you around.

You can try marriage counseling but you need to shop around. If a counselor starts blaming you don’t be afraid to walk out and find a new one.

I just really want to add this.

You need to move.

You cannot live in that house anymore.

If you try to reconcile or if you divorce you don’t want to be there any more.

The house is haunted now.

Every time you walk to your basement you will think of them.

There are professionals who strongly suggest moving.

Also any pictures of him need to be disposed of immediately.

Burn them.

Find any thing that reminds you of them. Gifts, pictures (even wedding photos) the clothes your wife wore with them.

Anything. Get rid of it all.

You will be triggered every time they appear. Even 20 years down the road.

Purge everything from the house then get rid of the house.

I’m so sorry. This is gonna be the hardest thing you have ever done.

Don’t let her jerk you around.

By the way. Talking to a lawyer is not optional.

You need to protect yourself.

I agree to the timeline and poly.

She may not be a serial cheater but it is very likely she has strong feelings for him.

You are still early in the process and she is in an unstable state.

You cannot trust her right now. She could change next week.

She needs to read "not just friends" immediately. It is still the most thorough researched book on infidelity.

That will get her started on the right path.

Again I’m so sorry.

If you read here enough you will find that trickle truth can kill a reconciliation and cause a divorce. Do not beguiled into thinking one or two times. That might be the truth. It might not be. There were hundreds of behaviors before that considered cheating. Those two did not spot someone across the room and suddenly pulled their clothes off. They danced around flirting, texting and possibly sexting. They slowly made their way to having sex. So one or two times is still sex in the middle of lying by omission. In the middle of secrets and sneaking around.

There is an unfunny joke about a mysterious book called The Cheater’s Handbook. Not real but if it was your story would be in it. This is a garden variety affair. Nothing prettily romantic about it.

Things on the first page are often the lies that make you want to roll your eyes:

We just had coffee/lunch/a drink a couple of times. Why are you so suspicious? Nothing is going on!
We only hugged goodby/hello.
We kissed one time and decided not to do that again.
Ok, we kissed a couple more times but that is all.
We fooled around but I promise we did not have sex.
It was twice and I felt so guilty.
He/she threatened to tell you/the boss/the church leader if I broke up.
I never said I love you.
I never told we have a dead bedroom.

You need to be realistic. Going to MC is to save the marriage. First she needs to figure out why and you need to grieve. MC comes when both of you are healthy enough to be completely honest. I don’t think she has gotten there yet.

Post #21:

Note that returning to the old M is returning to an M that has known vulnerabilities to infidelity. My reco: Go for a new M that’s better than the old one. Some people believe that's unattainable; others say it is, but it takes work and some luck, too.

Well, but it needs to be emphasized that was not the *marriage* that was vulnerable to cheating--marriages don't cheat, it is the people in them who decide to cheat. Instead, it was the WW in your marriage who DECIDED to break her integrity and who cheated, OP.

I do believe (but I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth) that the poster who wrote the quoted agrees with this, and may have even said so himself on this thread. But it is a point that IMO needs to be emphasized at every turn. There are A LOT of people out there--including quite possibly your WW's IC--who will peddle the 'unmet needs' nonsense. (People peddling 'unmet needs' are (incorrectly) saying that your WW cheated because of something lacking in the M itself.) You the OP, need to shut that talk down!

And on that note, I'd say that "going for a new marriage that you (OP) are happier in, is probably mission impossible. ETA: Right now R is the LAST Thing you should be thinking of right now in fact! You likely will NEVER trust your WW again as you did before, nor should you. The days of trusting her alone even with one of your close friends are history. So I say that while you may be able to repair your marriage up to 'well its good enough for rock-n-roll', you are **very** unlikely to be happier with your WW than you were before.

So as making this marriage better than before just aint gonna happen (unless pigs fly or something like that), you should strongly consider cutting yourself free. Healing and Ding, where your chances of being happy are likely much higher.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:46 PM, Wednesday, September 18th]

I am so sorry this happened to you! I’m very proud of you for being able to think of your children in the moment and not do anything that would risk them knowing or you being in jail. That being said I stayed when I found out about WH and I thought less of myself and I also think he began to see me as less than later down the road as well. 9 years later he is now leaving me for a basically same situation as 9 years ago. He said it is kinda my fault because I never was the same person after he cheated. He also was never the same and never followed the boundaries I set for him. I should have left back then. I believed his lies but not even once is a mistake. It is a choice. Leave because no matter how in love you are unfortunately she isn’t.

Infidelity is a major event, not too dissimilar to death. People grieve and mourn. It's a date on the calendar that betrayed people remember. In my opinion, serial cheaters don't really care. We still don't know what kind of a cheater your wife is. She could possibly remember the day she was caught but again, not for the same reasons. Her world didn't end when she slept with her AP the first time but only when she got caught. This is your life so I hope whichever route you take will be the best for you and your children. Sorry, I'm not too fond of cheaters so don't really care about your wife.

Before you can forgive you need to know what you are forgiving.
Was it a habit for your wife and friend to stay up after you and the friend's wife turn in?
There is little chance that this is the first or second time they hooked up. It is too brazen and arrogant for a first time encounter. They got comfy with the routine of family time then late night alone time.

She needs to admit to how many yeaars this was goin o or prove that it was only 2x

You have so much to deal with regarding this nightmare now your life.

Your wife is a liar and cheater

Your BFF guy friend is now dead to you

The OBS is no longer your friend due to the circumstances — you will never be friends with that couple even if you both reconcile

Your house is now tainted

I hope you are getting help and support for you alone. Professional advice helped saved my sanity during my H’s affair and false reconciliation and dday2, (because one Dday is not traumatic enough).

You need your own support team right now, including a professional.

First steps are always protect yourself. See an attorney learn you rights and the dos and don’t, I favor exposure to level the playing field, glad you are going to IC,

I'm so sorry for your situation but I'm glad that you have found this site. I believe our collective knowledge can be of great assistance helping you through this.

I wish I could tell you that there is a shortcut to healing and that in 6 months you should be healed. Whether you R or D, the time frame for healing from infidelity generally takes between two to five years.

The decision to R or D is your choice and we are here to support you whichever choice you make. I do recommend that you get a consultation in the near future with one or more attorneys to find out what result might be should you decide on D. Some attorneys may give you a free short consultation. Unless you have already decided that you are certain that you are going to file for D, this consultation would be just for information. Information is power and helps remove the fear of the unknown and I think right now you can use all the power you can get.

It's been over three weeks now, could you give us some idea as to what she is doing and how she is acting. Has she found an individual therapist? I agree with many of the others that this is the time for an IC for each of you and that MC should be delayed until WW has accepted full, 100% responsibility for the A and made positive progress toward delving into her whys.
Are you both sharing the same bed? Is your son aware that there are problems between the two of you? Has your wife disclosed the situation to her parents?

I strongly recommend that you frequently update us with your situation, especially the first three months. Let us know your feelings and update us on what she is doing and how she is acting. This is also a great place if you simply want to rant. We will fully understand!

We will give you recommendations but you are under no obligation to implement them. It’s your life and you have to live it, so take what you want and leave the rest. I do however recommend that you read all the comments even if you don't like them. You may find at a later date, as you go through this, they make sense.

One other thing. I don’t recall if anyone has mentioned, but do not inform your WW of this site. You should keep this site as your safe spot. I recommend deleting from your search history any reference to the site. I also recommend using an Incognito browser to keep this site from your search history.

Hello Unthoughknown,

I am so sorry you saw your wife betray you. Seeing it on paper after the fact is so traumatic, I simply cannot imagine the trauma of catching them in the act. I am genuinely amazed at how you were able to control your anger so that your son would not also be traumatized. This tells me that you are an extremely reasonable person who prioritizes the needs of your children over your own. Then we have your wife who prioritized external validation over her family's safety and security. She also willing participated in the destruction of another marriage of her supposed friends.

I spent 6 long years after my initial dday with a WH husband that would say all the right things and do all the wrong things. You know yourself better than anyone here. I am heartened to hear you are in therapy; it will be critical in the next few months.

I would focus squarely on her actions. You know have the knowledge that she has capacity for deception and massive (and brazen af) betrayal. Watch to see if she continues to prioritize herself over you. She should be laser focused on what she needs to do to make you feel safe in the marriage. She needs to lead the charge. She needs to find the books. Schedule the appointments. Do the hard introspective work of building boundaries, changing thought patterns, and maybe adding "consider the people she supposedly loves" into her decision making process. You will be able to see it. If she is committed to saving this marriage, she will do whatever it takes while understanding it may not be enough in the end.

If it ultimately does not matter in the end and you end up divorcing, please remember that you are not responsible for "breaking up the family". Your wife broke up the family with her actions, the divorce is just the legalities.

Be prepared for all the stages of grief, i seemed to linger in the denial and anger phases. I will say I am completely healed now. I only ever think about the cheating when I am supporting the newly betrayed and I do not feel sad when I think about that time.

I wanted to marry to divergent schools of thought that get posed here that Sisoon brought up:

Some believe that you should start the divorce process, and while the long process of divorce is in motion, tell the WS that if they want to stop the divorce process, they’re going to need to take impressive action to save the marriage that convinces you to pause, slow or stop the divorce proceedings.

And some believe that this is a form of coercion, an ultimatum, as Sisoon well described, that might provide negative motivation. Motivating via fear.

I respect both of these views.

Whatever approach you decide, just make sure you don’t get stuck in limbo. WS’s, whether it’s from a lack of devotion-motivation, or a lack of direction-guidance, or from toxic and debilitating shame-guilt, or because they’re cake eating-whatever the reason, don’t let your WS mire you in limbo. Don’t let YOU mire you in limbo.

Keep forward deliberate motion on your road out of infidelity. If reconciliation is something you might consider, allow your WS realistic opportunities to save the marriage, to educate herself, to get the IC she needs, but don’t tolerate foot dragging, rug sweeping, cake eating, wallowing in self pity, or basically, INACTION.

However you convince her that you will not tolerate inaction, it’s important that she understands that she WILL lose you if expectations are not met.

You’re going to hear the words "True Remorse" around here a lot. I believe one of the most objective signs of true remorse is, action. A WS taking action to save their BS and marriage.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:52 AM, Wednesday, September 18th]

Update-

It has been just a little over 3 weeks now since this happened. My emotions are all over the place, and I expect them to stay that way for a while. Working with my therapist, and reading every one of your replies has let me accept that. I do not know what path I will take yet. As many have said, and my therapist said on day one, my emotions are way too raw right now to make a decision. I committed to taking the time to make the right decision at the right time. As much as I hate her right now, this was the love of my life and best friend for 20 years. Although right now feel that has been completely thrown out the window by her actions. I don’t see a life with her that I can ever trust her again, or that I can be happy in.

I’ve never felt such a deep state of depression. If I’m not working, or with my son, I spend most of my time laying down and crying. It is debilitating. My entire world is shattered. It is so draining putting on a happy face for outsiders to see. Last week my wife had a pre-scheduled get together for my best friends fiancé to celebrate their coming wedding. She wanted to cancel, but I forced her to keep it. I dropped my son off at work. I couldn’t bring myself to reach out to anyone- I just wanted to be alone. I booked a hotel and stayed there crying for 6 hours until it was time to pick up my son. I know how unhealthy that is. The next day I forced myself to go out with friends, and it did feel good. This Monday I was at work. It was a slow day with too much time to think. I lost his. Full blown panic attack (which I’ve never had before) and had to leave. These waves are so bad and so hard to control. The worst part was I needed my wife to hold me that night. I needed some comfort. I felt so dumb the next morning. The woman who hurt me more than I ever thought imaginable is the one I ask to comfort me?!?!?!

I can tell my wife is truly remorseful. She is a mess. She can’t eat, and looks like she lost an unhealthy amount of weight. She doesn’t talk to friends or go out at all. She continues to say she’ll do anything. I gave her a list of demands the other day of what I need from her to even consider reconciliation. I was truthful that even with that, there was a good chance it is over. We have our first CT on Saturday. My biggest question is she remorseful that it happened, or that she got caught. I believe it’s that she got caught. This was not a one time thing. If she was truly remorseful for the act it would not have happened a second time (that’s if it was only twice- I don’t believe that either). I also can’t believe that if I didn’t catch her that it would not have continued.

We have not talked to my son yet. I am scared to. I know it has to be done- he can obviously see my disgust for her right now. We are going to this Saturday. Going to keep it as vague as possible.

I also can’t get over the fear of being 50 and alone. I don’t want to be alone the rest of my life. Rationally, I know that doesn’t have to be the case. But I am not thinking rationally right now.

Thank you all for your replies, suggestions and support. I am very glad that I found this site.

Hello Friend:

I don't post here often, but I am moved by the depth of your despair here. Perhaps I can offer a bit of perspective.

The overwhelming desire of most BH’s upon discovery of the WW’s A is to return back in time, back to the stable marriage he thought he was in, as if the A never happened. The first lesson every BH must learn is that not only is that not possible, the stable marriage you though you had didn’t even exist, at all. You and your WW were living two different marriages, in parallel. What you didn't know was that she had decided, on her own without your consent, that her half would be a secret, one-sided open marriage. Bottom line is that she chose that path because she wanted to. She prefers an open marriage over a monogamous one. Actions speak. Words are BS. When a person shows you who they really are, believe them.

If you spend time reading around here, which I recommend, you’ll find that your WW’s affair is fairly extraordinary. Sex in your home, with a friend, while both spouses are sleeping nearby. It's profoundly wicked. Every time you were socializing with this man, you (and the OBW) were the brunt of their private dirty joke. They didn't just serve you the proverbial shit sandwich. They completely rubbed your face(s) in it.

There is also the fact that you saw them with your own eyes in pari delicto. That doesn't happen very often. You will never be able to erase that image from your mind. It will diminish over time. It would diminish much faster if you moved on to a relationship with a woman who love and honored you.

By the way, that contrived story the two of them are telling you that it was only twice, that's almost certainly a lie. To this point, by now the two of them have not only conspired to be aligned on this lie (they almost certainly did it in the basement that night while you were talking to the AP's wife), they have gone on a wild deleting spree to eliminate their sexual text or other messenger app discussions. Also, as you note, if you hadn't caught them, the affair would without question still be going on.

As another aside, do NOT let her get away with calling it a "mistake". A mistake is using baking soda rather than baking powder. Or leaving a purse in a car in plain sight. This was a choice. Actually, it was probably hundreds of individual choices and decisions. Think of all of the scheming and planning that went into arranging opportunities for sex. Think of the gradual build-up to this, the knowing glances they exchanged at first, then the first fleeting touch that she didn't deflect. The first time he kissed her and she kissed him back deliberately in a manner that told him she wanted something more than a kiss. Those were among the many choices she made. The first time she chose to fondle and admire his dick. The first time she praised his skill as a lover.

You should know going in that if you choose to remain married, you’re in for a very long ride. In most cases, the first year or so, often referred to as "the roller coaster", is a period of wildly vacillating emotions, ranging from "I love her so much" to fantasizing about methods of torture for both her and the AP.

Around the end of that period, the emotional turmoil starts to calm down leaving behind the self-righteous anger that every BH can and should feel toward his WW’s choice. The two of you were both in the same marriage, but you didn't choose to describe yourself as a "I stay up late" person so you could fuck your friend's wife in the basement. Only a shyte human makes the choices she made. Consider what this says about her quality as a human. As a mate. If this happened to a friend of yours and you didn't know the wife personally, what would you advise your friend to do?

As the anger begins to ebb, the BH enters into a phase often called "The Plain of Lethal Flatness", where he realizes that "this is as good as it’s ever going to get." What I mean by that is that when your wife cheats like she has, with an ongoing sexual affair where she returned repeatedly for sex with the AP, the AP or his ghost becomes a permanent plus one in your marriage. Since it occurred in your home, it will forever infuse the place. You and your WW need to be ready for this involuntary throuple structure that your WW chose for you behind your back and without your consent. Literally, every day for the rest of your life there will be at least some level of intrusive thought about the other man silently lurking in the corner, watching your interaction with your wife, reminding you that he was there too.

I’m telling you all of this to prepare you for the reality that if you remain married, you’re in for a very, very, very long trek and there is no assurance you’ll be happy at the end. It can take years for you to know whether or not you wish to stay in the marriage. You therefore need to ask yourself whether you really want to invest that much of your life into what is in reality a low-odds play.

Referring again to infidelity chat sites, you’ll never, not once, come across a thread by a BH who divorced his cheating wife and later regretted it. You’ll come across many who spent multiple hand-wringing, tooth-gnashing years carrying the heavy load only to realize that it has been a futile effort, regretting the wasted years and the spent effort. In choosing to cheat, your WW has told you something about her character. She’s a person who will lie to the man who has pledged his life to her, and also lie to her purported good friend, specifically for the purpose of extramarital sex with her friend's husband. In her marital home (or her friend's marital home). While both of their spouses sleep nearby. The old adage "don't shit where you eat," it's difficult to imagine a more flagrant breach of that rule. Who does that except somebody so wrapped up in the thrill of illicit sex that they throw out all reason? Not the best mate material. She’s a person of weak convictions. Not the kind you can rely upon to carry her weight nor have your back.

One of the first things said about affair recovery is that a cheating wife has something broken in her moral compass. The first task she must undertake if she wants a chance at R is to engage in individual counseling (IC) to figure out what is wrong with her and fix it. Make herself into somebody new. Somebody whom you can trust. Because right now she’s not somebody you can trust.

By the way, until she does that, marital counseling is a waste of time. Most marital counselors lack the skill to deal with the trauma felt by a BH. They view the marriage as their client and they measure success by keeping the couple nominally married no matter how much duck tape and chicken wire is used to patch it together, and no matter whether the wife remains a broken person. In most cases they will try to bully the BH into accepting "blame" for his wife’s affair, as if you forced her onto a bed, removed her panties, and grabbed the AP’s dick to slide it into her. In the strongest possible terms, my advice is to NOT go to couples/marriage counseling, at least not at this time.

On another point, I think you should study up on the distinction between remorse and regret. "Remorse" is a term of art in the world of infidelity sites. Your WW isn't experiencing remorse. Remorse is grounded in empathy. It manifests in a overwhelming drive to help you heal. What your WW is manifesting is regret. As you note, mainly it's regret about being caught. Her little fantasy world is blown up. She had a marriage to Mr. Safe, and she had a long-term occasional lover whom she could enjoy from time to time in the comfort of her own home, or his, whilst the two of them chortled privately behind your backs about how they were making you (and the OBW) into unwitting fools. Now, she has been caught out betraying her friend, and her marriage is blown up. She is sad for selfish reasons. She isn't concerned about your healing; she's ruing the loss of her cake-eating lifestyle.

By the way, age 50 is a great time for a man to divorce. I've had several friends divorce at that age. As long as you are solvent and your junk still points north when the occasion arises, it is a buyer's market from a single man's perspective. You'll find yourself with way more action than you can handle. Go out and get yourself some while you're still closer to 45 than to 65.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 1:33 PM, Thursday, September 19th]

Thank you for checking back in and giving us your update.

The worst part was I needed my wife to hold me that night. I needed some comfort. I felt so dumb the next morning. The woman who hurt me more than I ever thought imaginable is the one I ask to comfort me?!?!?!

That is what will haunt you for a very long time. In your heart and mind you have two wives.

One whom you loved, had children with, and always saw spending the rest of your life with. This wife was your best friend, confidante... one whom you could always go to with your pain and problems. This wife always had your back and defended you.

This other wife is now your worst enemy... betrayed you in your own home... your castle... with your friend. The other wife stabbed you in the heart and then reached inside you with the dirtiest, grubbiest hands imaginable and ripped your heart out of your chest. Then while laughing at you and your friend's wife, she and your friend threw your heart on the ground, cut it into small pieces, and laughed while they walked away from you. She and your friend left your damaged heart on the ground in the hot sun only to rot and become nothing more than food for worms and maggots.

That is the puzzle... the anomaly... now going on inside you. Who are these two women? You are probably now wondering if your entire marriage is a lie. That is a really sad, sad thought to have.

As you said, you do not think you will ever be able to trust her again. My question to you is why should you ever trust her? As is often said, when someone shows you who they are... believe them!!!

I hope your IC is trained in PTSD because that sounds exactly what you are suffering with at this time.

I wish you the very best of luck.

I just saw Butforthegrace posted at the same time I did. It appears he said almost the same thing as I did.

You and your WW were living two different marriages, in parallel. What you didn't know was that she had decided, on her own without your consent, that her half would be a secret, one-sided open marriage. Bottom line is that she chose that path because she wanted to. She prefers an open marriage over a monogamous one. Actions speak. Words are BS. When a person shows you who they really are, believe them.

Listen to him. He is one of the most intelligent posters on this board.

Hi 75

I'm so sorry you are here. I feel your pain and you have been heard.

I have many thoughts and not a lot of time to respond in detail right now. But let me just say this as you are in good company. Many people have shown up here shell shocked as to what has happened to them, unknowing as to what this truly means to them and their relationship.

I guarantee that the things you think are important about this now will not be the same things you realize were important when you reach the 3 or 6 month point or 1, 2 or 5 years down the road.

Unfortunately I'll start by saying the bad part, what your wife did effectively ended your marriage "as you knew it" when she made the decision to give to someone else a major part of what was special between the 2 of you.

You and she can have a relationship again. Even a good one. But not the same one you had. But the path to it is unlikely and requires dedication and hard work by both parties.

So let me talk practically for a moment. Your therapist. Are they a trauma specialist? Because that is what you need. You need first to work thru the trauma of what you experienced. It was awful. And your most precious person inflicted it on you. So make sure you are getting support from the right person as you really need it.

As for Marriage counseling. Make sure the counselor is not trying to spread blame equally. There is absolutely no justification for what she did related to the marriage. Also, it's not time now to work on the marriage. Two broken people trying to fix a relationship is never going to work. You and she need to first fix yourselves thru individual counseling and until that happens you should not be working on repairing anything in your relationship. She needs to fix what was broken in her to make such an awful choice and you need to repair the emotional injury her choice caused

If you want to use MC to communicate things about the kids and finances and perhaps the D process, have at it. You can even discuss the work each other is doing in IC. But if you hear the MC try to talk about what you did to drive your wife to cheat so egregiously, it's time to bail.

I have more to say but I will leave you with this.

Your wife broke her vows. Those are the support beams that keep your marriage viable. If it were me, I would be telling her that regardless if you stay with her and try to build a new relationship, the old one, the agreement you made to marry and Love Honor Cherish and Protect each other, is destroyed. It's gone. There can be no marriage in my mind once one partner has decided to break those promises.

So when you are ready and feel you can do it, I'd let me wife know that I am going to be talking to an attorney to understand the D process and how it will work. No responsibility to tell her, but I would.

Then while the physical aspect of what she did would be mind numbingly painful, what would really matter to me is how she felt about her AP. Did she love him. Did they send each other love texts. Did they yearn to be together. Can you read those messages between them.

If you determine she did not, then perhaps there is a chance to build something new down the road.

But if you have evidence this man was in her heart, then I'd be clear with her and tell her that until she works with a specialist for months, at least a year and perhaps forever, to rid this man from her mind body heart and soul forever and to actually see him as the piece of shit he was (as she was) to callously put your and his his wife's heart in peril, then there WILL BE NO WORKING ON REBUILDING SOMETHING NEW with you.

It's impossible. It's a fools errand. A fruitless effort to try while he's still in her heart.

Be clear about that with her.

She has a long road to walk. It's hard to face that you are the villain in your own story. And that she is. She has been a bad person.

I would tell her she needs to write the plan to earn your trust back. It should be researched and thorough and you make no guarantees that it will work.

Ask her to present a first draft of that plan by a certain date. Not to far out. I recommend this weekend or a week from now. Make her show you she's actually putting in the effort to make this happen.

But tell her she has to actually want it. If she doesn't tell her not to waste your time on false attempts at helping you heal.

Again more to come but I wish you strength in this awful journey.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:35 PM, Wednesday, September 18th]

sorry duplicate post

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:02 PM, Wednesday, September 18th]