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My BS and I are in the thick of recovery. We also don't agree about whether or not what has happened is in fact cheating or an affair. I have had two friendships with COW's that he believes were affairs. The first relationship was text messages (nothing sexual or romantic) and we worked together at the same location. My BS didn't know how much we were communicating through text. We had an enormous fallout when this initially happened The second discovery for my BS was text messages with another colleague that were primarily about work but also were very friendly and familiar. My BS didn't know I was communicating with him in this way. My BS is experiencing extreme betrayal trauma. I haven't been good at comforting him or showing compassion since he discovered this which has made things worse. We are trying to work through it but it is difficult because he doesn't believe anything I say, thinks I had sex with at least one of these men or more, thinks I have been leading a double life, thinks I manipulate and doesn't trust couples counselling. We have had some enormous, aggressive fights and lately I just want to walk away. I don't want to be around my BS.I fantasize about a separation. Is this normal?

Hi,

Fellow ws here.

A couple of things stand out from your post. First, you don’t agree about whether this is cheating. I understand everyone has different values, but what is cheating is whatever either of you define it as. Perhaps your values do not line up.

However, I agree with him. Hiding things about relationships with the opposite sex is cheating. You didn’t even ant him to know how much you were texting and that is most usually indicative of having something to hide. Even if that something is the need to flirt to get validation.

Second, I am not saying o do not believe that’s all it was. However, it’s so very important that you come clean about anything that you are hiding about your interactions with these men. You can’t rebuild trust on a foundation of lies. A traumatized bs will dig until either they find they have the truth or realize they may never have the truth and either way it’s as damaging to the marriage if not sometimes moreso.

what is normal varies greatly, and we don’t know you. I can tell you as a ws I had to overcome my avoidance and escapism tendencies. I learned to lean on and be vulnerable and it improved my life and all my relationships.

A book I found helpful in learning to build meaningful connections, recognizing how my shame and lack of self worth were huge inhibitors towards that - "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown. I highly recommend that.

But first, read "not just friends" by Shelly Glass. I think you are hiding some truths to yourself about the slippery slope you were on.

I encourage you to dig in and really try and see this through his eyes. How would you feel in his shoes?

I also am not sure it sounds like you are invested in staying in this marriage. Do you want to be married to him? Are there deep problems? Or would you say that you are experiencing the normal and inevitable periods of stagnancy that maybe lingered too long?

I feel like what you told us skims the surface a bit and I hope you will eleaborate.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:41 PM, Friday, October 18th]

No STOP sign and I am a BS. If you don't wish for BS responses at this time, ask for a MOD and they can add one for you.

We also don't agree about whether or not what has happened is in fact cheating or an affair.

This is a HUGE roadblock for you. Forget debating the semantics of it all [cheating and affair are synonymous]. But whatever you choose to call it - it was done in secret of your spouse and was inappropriate at best. Around these parts that is called an Emotional Affair but again, no matter what you call it, it was wrong.

So before you can even think of moving forward you need to own that.

My BS is experiencing extreme betrayal trauma

Yes. And, gently, that is because your BS was betrayed by you. Perhaps not as brutally as you see it, but a betrayal nonetheless. The fact that it had to be "discovered" nails that point. And because these were co-workers and y'all were "friendly" outside of work AND in secret of your spouse lies the problem. Your boundaries are way too loose. And this is an issue - personally, professionally and martially.

I don't want to be around my BS.I fantasize about a separation.

To me, this sounds like classic escapism. You want to run away from a problem you caused because it seems easier. I assure you, in the long run, it is not. I get the fantasy of that [let's face it - the txts/messages that caused all this were in a way fantasy and escapism]. But that solves nothing and only prologues the problem and derails any resolution. I think deep down you know this.

Ask yourself - what if roles were reversed. What if it was YOU who caught your BS sending "flirty" type texts with "just a friend" or "just a co-worker" of the opposite sex. I guarantee if you were being 100% truthful with yourself it wouldn't sit well.

What you can do - OWN your s***. Stop any and all personal work contact with people of the opposite sex - especially if you have to keep it secret from your spouse. Talk to HR if you are working too closely with these collogues to get reassigned - that close proximity is now a major problem. Get IC to help you figure out why your boundaries are so loose and help you to own this issue. Be open/honest/transparent at all time. And - remember - if you wouldn't want your BS doing it to/with someone - you shouldn't either.

Keep posting. There is much collective wisdom here on SI.

Thanks for both your input. It is very helpful. Especially the book recommendations. I suspect it is shame that is making it hard for me to connect and show empathy. I do not communicate personally with any of the COW's involved any longer. One of them no longer works with me. The other is still working at the same location but I can avoid him. I am off social media. I am not going to any social work events. I am not eating lunch in the common lunch room. My BS is asking me to stay off any organizing committees (which I was active on) including ones that are an extension of my job and only include women. How do you deal with the requests from the BS that seem extreme? How do I ensure I don't feel angry or resentful?

How do you deal with the requests from the BS that seem extreme? How do I ensure I don't feel angry or resentful?

I don’t think it’s extreme.

It doesn’t mean you can never do those things again but right now he knows that you have been seeking validation through others and that work is where you have a chance to meet these people. People have divorced for less. So you have to put it in context of is my marriage more important? Aren’t these things very small in that context?

Does your husband have a past of controlling behaviors? It’s not that I think his reaction is controlling or extreme- it’s more I am trying to understand the context of how this is not connecting with you.

How do you not feel resentful? You take accountability that he isn’t randomly saying don’t do these things. You have now had multiple emotional affairs. If you keep going that will escalate until one actually sticks and it be become physical.

What you did was wrong, and it was a betrayal, and he is willing to work through this with you. Why would you have resentment for a situation that you caused?

I am not trying to be harsh, I am trying to get you to look at this realistically. Can you admit that you were more involved with these coworkers than you should have been? And what do you think you wanted from them? Because honestly there is a line that has been crossed here and you are not connecting to that aspect.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:15 PM, Friday, October 18th]

Hi there. Again - I give my answers to your questions as a BS.

It easier to be angry and resentful than look at yourself in the mirror and say I WAS WRONG.

How do you deal with the requests from the BS that seem extreme?

But are they? Are they really? What you have listed in your response are normal boundaries from one who has been betrayed and one where the betrayal is with a co-worker. While it may sound "extreme" to you as you are the one who just had your perceived wings clipped - again if the role was reversed I wonder if you'd have even more "extreme" requests.

How do I ensure I don't feel angry or resentful?

This pains me as a BS to say - but you probably will for a while. I mean no disrespect with this analogy but much like a teenager who hates his/her parents for busting them for breaking curfew or sneaking out to a party. How dare they be killers of the fun? That's how this reads.

I will step away from this thread now. I hope more come along and offer some words of wisdom.

Welcome to SI It’s an incredible resource for poor souls like us that unfortunately need it. And I myself am a BH, just fyi.

We had an enormous fallout when this initially happened

If this was the first time, the conversation might be a little different. But this is the second time you’ve done this, and your husband clearly had a huge reaction to the first time. You knew. And you did it anyway. That is betrayal. Combine that with his trauma consistent reaction, and you need to take this very seriously. You crushed that man. If you love him at all, you need to face that.

Thank you everyone for your very candid responses. I appreciate them more than you know. This has been very helpful for me. Please keep the responses coming from both BS and WS!

Maybe you can tell us what you are going to do with this candid feedback. You will find that this community is more than willing to lean into someone being humble and transparent and putting advice into practice.

Wishing you and your man healing and happiness.

It sounds like you had one EA, got caught, he got upset, and you experienced "enormous fallout" from it. And now you've gone and done it again. Your BS is experiencing "extreme betrayal trauma" because you saw how much it hurt him the first time and you did it again. He can't trust you.

Why did you do it again?

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:15 PM, Friday, October 18th]

We don't know the truth of your situation. But I'm going to offer a different perspective for you to include in the mix.

Have you seen Othello? Tosca? They are fictional characters, but it is a real thing that some people are so wired to see betrayal that they see it where it doesn't exist.

If he is like that, he might have a definition of betrayal that is so far from standard that you couldn't have known that some of the things you were doing were crossing it or triggering it. If you had been aware of that when you were first dating or first married, you would have known to behave in a way that would leave absolutely no room for doubt, out of respect for his . . . I'm not sure what to call it . . disposition?

If what you wrote is true, I think it was not right to hide, but I can understand. If you know you didn't do anything wrong, but he's acting really weird about it, I can see how you might avoid talking about it or deflect. If he said (for example) "you didn't text on the weekend, right? Not the WEEKEND?" you might mutter something, get out of there, and avoid talking about texting because you did text on the weekend, you know it wasn't a big deal, why argue, and clearly he's just too tired or getting sick or something. It's not right, but it's understandable and, I think, different from hiding something that you know is wrong because you don't want to be found out.

I can also see how confusing this might be to you, if what you are saying is true. You know that you didn't do anything wrong. You know that the interactions you had were friendly and nothing more. But here he is having a huge reaction in front of you and it's not getting better. It's not exactly gaslighting, because he believes it, but it would for sure be confusing to the point that you start to doubt yourself and you're not sure which way is up.

So, I can understand how you got to where you are without major character flaws that need fixing, unlike most other people on the wayward board, though it is probably good to work on not hiding or avoiding because you see that it doesn't lead to a good place.

The issue is more, what to do now? Othello was so out of his mind that he was incapable of taking in convincing evidence until after he murdered Desdemona. Going forward, you can behave in a way that leaves your husband no doubt and you can stop hiding and avoiding. But . . . will he ever believe you? Is he willing to entertain the idea that he might have an issue with an over active jealousy trigger or is he only ever going to believe the problem is you?

This is all assuming that what you wrote is true. The problem with this board is that the vast majority of the people who show up here have an ease with lying and are sometimes rather convinced of their own lies. It's possible you were engaged in interactions that most people would say were inappropriate and maybe you have lots of work to do on yourself. But it's possible you are a truthful non-wayward being accused of betrayal in a very confusing situation, so I have leaned into that possibility.

[This message edited by Pippin at 1:16 AM, Saturday, October 19th]

I want to be clear that I know I've betrayed my husband but I'm so unclear as to if I've been lying to myself about what's appropriate or if my husband's understanding of cheating is a little skewed. I know I have work to do and I have an IC and I'm also reading lots of books. I want to be a better partner and I'm committed to helping my husband recover from the trauma I have caused. I just desperately want to be in the right head space so I can do that.

OP, I’ve noticed you haven’t really said anything nice about your H. You’ve painted him as extreme, that you’ve thought about leaving, etc. Not hearing much love from you over him, at least from what you’ve posted.

If that’s the case, why do you even want to stay M to him?

Oh Texas24 . . . based on what you just wrote, it seems like you know you did something wrong but you are having trouble taking in how he feels about it or where it is coming from in you. Would you say that when you are faced with his big emotional reactions (you must have had sex!) you get defensive (it was just texts!) and want to avoid these interactions? If that is the case, you are going to be stuck in a destructive loop unless you make some changes. Things will go better when

1. you can take his point of view and understand that his reaction is reasonable - if you are hiding one thing why wouldn't you be hiding another? If you seek validation from men in one way you might do it in another. If you don't understand the humiliation he suffers when another man weasels into his marriage you don't get him at a fundamental level. He counted on you to be always on his team. He is responding (reasonably IMO) to what happened now but he also sees his entire future as terrifying if you don't get it.

2. you learn to tolerate difficult emotions and stay present. It's not easy but it feels wonderful when you can learn to do this. The young son of a close friend of mine suffered a stroke in the spring, was in a deep coma for a couple of weeks, and she and her husband made the decision to remove life support. You wouldn't believe the number of friends who are not able to be present for her when a wave of grief hits her. I've learned through this process to just be present and that the wave of grief will abate. Thank God the learning I've done from infidelity is finding other places to be helpful. You can learn this too, and it will have benefits all over your life, not just in your marriage.

3. you become deeply curious about why the interactions with these men were appealing to you and you address those needs in healthy ways rather than destructive ways. It can be scary because you have to let go of your image of yourself as a good and decent person and be committed to learning about how you are not. The good news is that the underlying truth is not scary. You are a human, you need connection and validation, you have some reasons that you have addressed those needs in a way that is destructive and hurtful, and when you understand the reasons you can catch yourself and choose differently.

So - can you begin to believe that his reaction is reasonable? What tools or strategies do you use to tolerate uncomfortable emotions and do you have resources for developing new tools? What do you currently understand about why you thought it was OK to betray your husband to seek validation from other men?

Texas24, if you do the work now you are going to save you and your husband trouble in the future and you can build a sturdy marriage (if he wants). You have a lot of ways to defend and deflect - pointing to things you DIDN'T do, his big reaction which you could say is outsized in proportion to the facts (that is not true and thank God he is in touch with his feelings, men who stuff their feelings suffer terribly). Can you welcome this as the opportunity that it is, rather than wait for it to die down and go away?

You are right. I need to do some serious work and I need to stop my defensiveness. I am working with an IC on these things. I need to stop making it about the facts and focus more on his feelings and his recovery. I appreciate all your honesty. I know I've been a selfish person. I love my husband and he is suffering so badly right now. I am determined to be better. I know it won't be easy and I have a lot of work to do. Thanks for the support and suggestions. I'm sure I will post along the way. Thank you

I'm pretty much with Pippin, even though I'm a BS. Your H seems may be unusually insecure; my guess is that has something to do with fear of being abandoned by you, but I could be projecting my own issues onto him. Whatever healing you have to do, this is a good opportunity for your H to resolve some big issues for him. The thing is, he needs to decide for himself to do the work. I really hope he chooses to get help healing himself. BTDT.

*****

IMO:

WS heals WS. BS can provide emotional support, but WS is the only one who can heal WS.

BS heals BS. WS can provide emotional support, but BS is the only one who can heal BS.

Together you heal your M, if you both choose to.

You need to focus on your own recovery, just as BSes need to focus on theirs.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:29 PM, Sunday, October 20th]

Have you read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair by Linda MacDonald and Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass? They're starting points that we encourage members to read. HTHYSHFYA is a little over 100 pages but is a good blueprint. NJF is longer but more detailed.

PS: I'm a BS.

[This message edited by leafields at 7:12 AM, Monday, October 21st]

FBH here. Your post reminded me a lot of my first wife and her attitude post betrayal.

I affirm you being in IC, doing extensive reading and posting here. I hope you continue on all fronts.

What I am perceiving from your post is an.....intentional distancing? Inequity in attraction/affinity, aka, imabalance in attraction and possibly love? Definitely a lack of empathy on your part. Its almost as if you're frustrated that your BH is angry and hurt by you giving attention that should be reserved for him to other men.

My first wife was much like this. She was frustrated and sometimes angry that I was hurt, angry and questioned her love (we had a huge imbalance in love/affinity and very different definitions for the same word) and committment. In a phrase, she lacked empathy.. It was a reflection of the developmental and integrity gap in her life that she never wanted to acknowledge or come to grips with.

Regardless as to whether your marriage survives, Id encourage you to focus on family of origins issues, specifically empathy as well as significant amounts of bounderies work.

Good luck.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 11:47 AM, Saturday, October 26th]

I’m sorry if I missed it, but why did you hide the fact you were messaging other men? People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

My W had multiple A’s and while peeling back all the layers I found a guy she hid from me but they talked about his place at the farmers market, nothing sexy or romantic, just farming and produce. Why did she hide it? Because she had him on the shelf, in case of emergency break glass.

I think at a minimum you were flirting at the top of a slippery slope, enjoying the attention and messages, hiding it all. That is an EA and a betrayal.

Texas24 Post #8

I need to stop making it about the facts and focus more on his feelings and his recovery.

Well Texas24, but this ACTUALLY IS ALL about the facts though.

I do notice something. You take a defensive tone, and then when called on it, you say that the people on this board are right, but then you follow through with a comment that, while you probably didn't consciously mean any harm, it does show in a subtle way that you don't get it yet. It reads as a bit passive-aggressive to me towards your BH and his reactions...e.g., an apology along the lines of something like 'Youre right I'm so sorry I offended you, I didn't know you were so sensitive.' . It's like you are saying that on some level you still don't think 'the facts' implicate you and that you think your BH's asks are excessive but, swell person you are, you are focusing on your BH's healing anyway.

So lets get back to...the facts of your story. With the facts of your story, I would have quite a hard time believing that you did not engage in any sexual contact with these men either, if I were your husband. Adults who have physical access to each other rarely stop at inappropriate texting. I do have to ask: Why were you texting these men so much and in secret in the first place? What were you getting from this. The relationships you had with these men were clearly 'man-to-woman'--I mean, would you have been texting so much with a FEMALE co-worker? (You don't need to say here but you DO need to find your 'why's.) And AT THE VERY LEAST, you and these men you were texting with, had a **secret** together, a secret you shared with these OM but were keeping from your husband.

Keep in mind too that a big part of being faithful is not disrespecting your spouse for another man, and disrespecting your spouse for another man includes doing anything with said man that even LOOKS inappropriate, such as so much texting.

ETA: This just occurred to me reading the other posts especially InkHulk's. That this is your SECOND DDay makes the disrespect you heaped on your BH that much stronger.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:41 AM, Friday, October 25th]