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Many WSs cheat because their need for sex isn't being met, but they're often c*ckblocking themselves by behaving poorly outside of the bedroom and harming the emotionally intimacy that their partner needs in order to be receptive to them. If the need for sex isn't met, and if the tools to communicate and work it out aren't yet in the tool belt, bad things are likely to happen. Multiply by 10 if you married young. That's essentially the story of my marriage.

Yes!

Essentially I can say that I was blocking my ability to have emotional connection at the time of my affair. And I was a big part of why the emotional connection wasn’t there.

And I definitely know there have been periods of time that my husband was 100 percent cockblocking himself with how things were outside the bedroom and he had no awareness of it, even if I tried to explain it to him which at the time was still may own only basic understanding of why the prospect of sex might not have been appealing.

Ink- I can almost hear what you are trying to get at but I can’t grasp it.

You can turn any need into a toxicity. The perceived scarcity of maybe one of the top needs can create obsessive thoughts. I think it might be your coffee example that I am not fully connecting to.

I am going to try to get closer to understanding.

Right now, I have shared we are having some struggles in physical intimacy. Logically I understand the health issue that is causing it. But what has been happening (I was taking to my husband about this yesterday) is that I keep seeing that as he is no longer attracted to me. It’s ridiculous, but emotions and logic are often not in alignment.

Truthfully, when sex was in over-abundance (for most of our marriage) I probably would have wished for the quality/quantity we are at. It’s still a normal amount. But because he always wanted more there was always a lot of pursuit - and regardless of whether that resulted in anything, that pursuit showed me his desire for me.

Now I find I am the one making the innuendos, making the pursuit and there just isn’t much receptiveness. So in essence now I am getting to see his side of how things probably was during periods of time.

I can logically see his other efforts, he has definitely increased his acts of service, a slight uptick in words of affirmation (from rarely to sometimes). But the lack of that need for pursuit/physical intimacy all the sudden means more to me than all the other things.

The other ways he shows his love does not mean as much as they would without the imbalance.

I think this is more what you mean? I am not saying you are talking about sex specifically- it’s more it’s the example I can come up with in how this plays out in a relationship and that is the one I am in right now. I had similar reactions when he stopped getting me cards at holidays. I stopped giving him cards and that balances it a bit better because I don’t feel my efforts are unreturned.

This sounds like scorekeeping because I am writing this as analysis. I don’t think it’s tit for tat, I am not trying to have a transactional relationship. More it’s just the logic and emotions don’t always match and when a major need for one person in the relationship is really being glossed over or maybe can’t be met for a period of time, it can create a space between you.

I think this is where communication comes in. And there was a time when I just wanted him to do the things I need because he wanted to do them.. I subscribed to the "if he wanted to he would" philosophy. In the older days I would have just held it in until there would be a blow up, then the next time he complied I would assume this was as because I finally complained about it. So it didn’t fix anything: it would instead make it worse because what generally happens is when the complaints are over the behavior you were trying to get goes away again.

So I am trying to find what works. But I have expanded my view at this is not just about what I am not getting but how I react to it. So I am trying to deal with this from many directions:

-showing more appreciation for the things he does for me that still demonstrate love. Lots of positive affirmations. “I love when you do that” I find this is the best way to keep getting more of what you like.

- being mindful of what his needs are right now and putting effort in them. This is reassuring that I love him unconditionally regardless of where we are.

-talking about how I am feeling so misunderstandings do not add up. (For example, I flashed him the other day and he didn’t look up from his phone so I said you know we can still show appreciation and enjoy each other if you can understand it’s not me intentionally putting pressure on you. I always enjoyed our playfulness and I don’t want to lose that, but I am okay with you reacting but that not meaning we have to take things further. We often didn’t take it further before" and he opened up to me about how he was feeling. Keeping that dialogue open makes it more of a team effort to mitigate the issues that are coming up from the imbalance)

So overall, I think there are always going to be imbalances that come up and in a long marriage those tend to repeat themselves and after a long time we just get frustrated and it starts coming between you.

But it doesn’t change this need. I am not sure we can control what we need or desire because it emotional, it doesn’t come from our logic. The best we can do it mitigate the imbalances and try and do our part in helping the balance come back.

At other times when the imbalance is as in the opposite direction, I worked to try and figure out what was happening. Sometimes when the kids were growing up I was tired and had demands thrown at me all day long. Sometimes the initiation was lousy. My husband would be like "if you needed this you would make time" which wasn’t really fair either. It’s that empathy component that has to kick in for you to problem solve it together without all the junk we alcarry around that just wants to go straight to "they don’t love me" "they don’t desire me" etc.

I think a book that helped me with this was "The power of now" by Eckhardt Tolle. It’s okay to feel things, it’s essential. But believing what we think is dangerous - just because we think it doesn’t make it true. It’s helped me try to keep an open mind, even if sometimes my emotions want to go back to the one need that is out of balance.

It all comes down to being responsible for your own thoughts, feelings, needs, reactions, etc. Relationships take a lot of experimentation to find what works. The hard thing is you can’t always get engagement from your spouse, but O do think we have to put effort into those experiments to see if we can find the keys that allow both of you to get your needs met as often as possible. I think of you successfully create that environment that you will hit where you want to go more often than you don’t.

I don’t do any of this perfectly, I am not sure our marriage has really made it to this point, but knowing where I am want to go I keep experimenting. You just have to be self aware enough to stay calm while you do it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:55 PM, Thursday, October 31st]

"emotional needs" and "relationship needs" overlap

Do they? In more mathematical/engineering terms, are we talking about a Venn Diagram here, or are we talking about a requirements hierarchy? I'd kill to be talking over a whiteboard right now. Your minimum requirements language (which I still really like) would point towards the latter. Now undoubtedly we would still say that no one relationship can be expected to fully satisfy all my hungers. But then for a primary relationship it would then follow that (House of Plane may disagree) we've identified some subset of those hungers that we expect to get satisfied in a primary relationship, and that would be our "needs" for that relationship.

I am fully aware that most probably find this exercise the worst kind of semantics. But there is something here that I really want to tease out, a disorder in my own thinking that I think is hiding in plain sight. This is already helping, me at least smile

You're going to hate me as much as our requirements management team...

We have a requirements hierarchy, and we can satisfy those requirements (lets call those Maslow's needs as the source of top level requirements).

Now, I'm selecting a design framework to try to meet those requirements. At least you and I have selected monogamy, which comes with a bunch of design constraints. Other frameworks have other constraints. One of the big mistakes people make when selecting monogamy, is not looking at those design constraints critically and whether or not they are actually following them.

When we establish a primary relationship as a partial solution to the top level needs under a monogamy framework, it creates it's own set of non-requirement artifacts (wants/desirements) as well introducing other requirements or design constraints (as agreed upon by your partner).

I can also establish friendships, which have their own constraints (also by way of the monogamy framework). To meet the Maslow's needs.

If I'm not getting my *Maslow's needs* from my monogamous relationship that I have chose to meet my needs, I still have to respect the established design constraints of sexual exclusivity. Thus, if my relationship is not meeting the requirements and constraints set around it, I ought to leave my monogamous relationship (after working with my partner to see if we can solve the problem of the unmet need).

All of that is fancy words for, cheaters don't respect design constraints of monogamy regardless of whether or not their primary relationship is meeting their minimum Maslow needs or not.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:10 PM, Thursday, October 31st]

I realized after all the word vomit I just did- it boils down to the needs are not the problem, the requirements are not the problem. It’s how you manage them that often becomes the problem.

Personally, I see some of the things you define as needs as desires; no matter how strong. If my spouse was incapacitated to the point that sex was no longer an option, I wouldn't say that she needs to be able to fulfill my need for said sex. Not optimal for my desires by any means, but something I would find a way to accommodate. No one is perfect. No one is capable of meeting each and every need of their partner.

I agree with you grubs. While we are having a highly analytical conversation, it does boil down to this. It’s like I just wrote- the needs are not the problem it’s the managing of those needs and having reasonable expectations.

I realized after all the word vomit I just did- it boils down to the needs are not the problem, the requirements are not the problem. It’s how you manage them that often becomes the problem.

Very well put.

Whether or not the needs are being met is an environmental factor around the cheating (and sometimes self-imposed by the cheater), but it's the willingness to deceive for selfish gain that poisons the whole thing.

I missed this bit from grubbs until hikingout responded to it.

If my spouse was incapacitated to the point that sex was no longer an option, I wouldn't say that she needs to be able to fulfill my need for said sex. Not optimal for my desires by any means, but something I would find a way to accommodate.

If you can meet your need for physical intimacy through self pleasure, then it was perhaps never a need for you in the first place just like you stated.

If my wife became incapacitated to the point of being unable to be sexually intimate, it would force a revisit on the design constraint of sexual exclusivity or the end of the marriage.

What I wouldn't do is lie to her and get my needs met elsewhere secretly.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 5:22 PM, Thursday, October 31st]

Aren't 'needs' related to objectives? My needs for my next car are different from my needs for my next vacation. A bridge has different requirements - 'needs' - than a ship does.

I think needs for relationships differ from person to person. For example, my M requires mutual sexual desire. My friendships with other people do not. Each of us have been needed in many roles: worker, spouse, parent, child, friend, etc., etc., etc. In human relations maybe 'needs' depend on the roles one plays is specific sitches.

I think it's my ethical values that tell me: 1) it's up to me to voice my desires; 2) it's up to me to deal with the results when I voice those desire; 3) it's not OK to cheat or lie, so if my needs aren't met, it's up to me to accept live with my unsatisfied desire or leave.

*****

The therapeutic school I follow uses 'entitlement' in a unique way that makes immense sense to me. For example, they say one is entitled to be loved, but entitlement doesn't guarantee will get it. The thing is - again using being loved as an an example - many of us grow up not feeling entitled to be loved, and those folks don't accept love when it's given.

*****

I took a couple of philosophy courses in college; I never got much out of them. OTOH, I still remember a goodly amount from poli. sci. and historical studies, but SI isn't a place for discussing those topics.

I realized after all the word vomit I just did- it boils down to the needs are not the problem, the requirements are not the problem. It’s how you manage them that often becomes the problem.

I agree, and I also agree with Grubs.

If I'm not getting my *Maslow's needs* from my monogamous relationship that I have chose to meet my needs, I still have to respect the established design constraints of sexual exclusivity. Thus, if my relationship is not meeting the requirements and constraints set around it, I ought to leave my monogamous relationship (after working with my partner to see if we can solve the problem of the unmet need).

All of that is fancy words for, cheaters don't respect design constraints of monogamy regardless of whether or not their primary relationship is meeting their minimum Maslow needs or not.

Engineers, man. I don't think this is universally true, but there certainly is a subset that will cheat regardless of whether or not their needs are met within the marriage. There are plenty of BSs who thought they had terrific relationships and were meeting their spouse's needs only to discover that their WS is carrying on a secret life. Anyone remember Sigyn? Whew.

Engineers, man.

Just gonna say for the moment that I LOVED that response! We are a different breed

Whose head hurts now?

Engineers, man. laugh I don't think this is universally true, but there certainly is a subset that will cheat regardless of whether or not their needs are met within the marriage. There are plenty of BSs who thought they had terrific relationships and were meeting their spouse's needs only to discover that their WS is carrying on a secret life.

I totally agree with this. No amount of healthy relationship positivity will prevent someone that wants to cheat from cheating. "Unmet needs" are at most an environmental factor. They may not actually be a problem at all. They may be a manufactured problem by the WS to feel justified. The base reality is you'll never work out a model around "meeting needs" that would stop cheating. A cheater could have a "need" for an illicit relationship. They would be an unstoppable serial cheater. The healthy relationship is incapable of filling the illicit relationship need.

From HikingOut:

Now I find I am the one making the innuendos, making the pursuit and there just isn’t much receptiveness. So in essence now I am getting to see his side of how things probably was during periods of time

I love(d) getting sexual innuendo messsages/pics from my wife but it rarely happened. She would usually send something after I sent something or after we had yet another "conversation" about it :/

She knew how much I LOVED it when she would take the initiative. An unsolicited text/ picture would instantly turn around a bad work day for me. I would classify this as a need because it demonstrated to me that she listened and HEARD me. After a conversation her initiating sexting me would spike for a few weeks and then drift right back to where she wanted it to be which was basically zero. This made me feel like my need was not worth her time.

When she started this new job she told me I will not have time to do that and I said okay, I understand. So imagine my surprise and anger and disappointment when I found out that not only did she have the time, she also had the DESIRE to do it with a married coworker.

Even though I had clearly verbalized what I wanted and she understood that it demonstrated to me that I was heard she still had no desire to do it with me but had plenty of desire to do it with someone who is basically a stranger.

I told her you have ruined that for me. You knew how much I loved it, what it meant to me, what it demonstrated to me when you would take the initiative, and now it's ruined and I have no interest in doing that with you.

So now I guess it's yet another need that she will not be able to fulfill :/

WB- the pain of every affair is in the details. And the slights, and things like this could just knock you over.

Focus on you, what you need, it sounds like from a recent post I read by you that you are moving forward with a poly so it’s likely you are engaging in this in a methodical way.

That first year is so disorienting. I am so sorry you are here going through all this.

Later on, regardless of how your marriage progresses, you will come to accept this had nothing to do with you, your worth, your desirability. It’s her and her disfunction that is the root cause of all of it. Maybe you already see that, some do early. It doesn’t take away the true pain that comes with these things, but I like to see betrayed spouses come to terms enough that they understand that there is nothing they did or were that caused this. I truly believe that.

That’s all I will say for now, but I will be rooting for you like everyone else here will.

I need to spend some time reading all these responses and thinking about them.

I appreciate the elements here around avoiding toxicity and entitlement. Truly, with the idea of "I could leave the marriage" strictly verboten until infidelity crashed the party, I truly felt completely stuck in a shitty marriage. Thanks, I'll respond more in the coming days.

It did take a while to realize and accept that I did nothing wrong. My wife made the decision to do what she did. She chose to gamble our 27 year relationship. I know I am a good guy and I was a good husband and I know that if we end up going our separate ways I stand a pretty good chance of finding a woman who will appreciate what I bring to the table

WB- most excellent and correct thing I have read all day.

IMHO the big issue with connecting infidelity with unmet needs is the assumption that it’s the partners role to fulfil all needs, plus the assumption that all needs are necessary, valid or require meeting.

I don’t think affairs are about sex. Of course – as always when talking about human interaction and behaviors there are few (if any) absolutes – but I think the vast majority of infidelity is about validation and empowerment.

Relationships are all about give-and-take. In ways, all society is about give-and-take. We "give" our right to drive through school-zones at 100 mph, and "take" the added safety this forfeit gives our kids. We "give" our right to take our neighbors new TV and "take" the security law and protection gives us and our possessions. We make sacrifices in the belief and hope that they in turn give us some advantages.

In relationships the give-and-take is of course on a lot more personal level. I "give" my right to hit on and have sex with any willing woman, and "take" the assumption my wife "gives" up her right to do the same. I "give" the single-ownership of my wages, to combine with her income to pay "our" bills and build up "our" wealth. No longer "MY" house, but "OUR" house. WE forfeit her ability to earn an income for the benefit of her being home with the kids allowing me to work more and earn more... It’s all a combination of both of us taking decisions and making sacrifices for our MUTUAL benefit.

A basic "need" in a relationship is mutual respect. Without (at least the possibility) of mutual respect, there is IMHO no grounds for a marriage.

OK – So how does that fit in with the "needs" and infidelity?

Well... I think we all need to feel valued. We need validation.
Most of us get that in "normal" and healthy ways: a promotion at work, praise from others, lower our handicap, pay off our debts and save money, being sought after by friends... We might even get a slight fuzzy feeling if someone hits on us... Heck... we might even feel validated by the simple fact our spouse is still there, still wants to hold hands or whatever...

I think most of us actually do make our spouse feel like they are valued. Only with time our signals might not impact as high or be understood in the correct way. We can either move into a place in the relationship where the mutual respect is lacking, the spouse doesn’t recognize the validation, we might think that the holding-hands is obligatory or a habit, the sex is mundane and compulsory or whatever.

Of course, there are instances of abuse, where you (or your spouse) might emotionally abuse each other with negative comments about ability, looks or whatever, or extended periods where you either don’t show respect or don’t feel respect for your spouse. But IMHO what is a lot more common is that the POTENTIAL wayward spouse looks for UNHEALTHY validation for reasons that have not been made clear to you.

Like... If you feel life is boring and lacks excitement you might find that excitement in shoplifting. Walking out of a store with a couple of soup-cans in your pants might tickle the excite-o-meter and make you feel powerful and accomplished (validated), but it would definitely be an UNHEALTHY form of validation. As with infidelity then despite the excitement of possibly getting caught the typical kleptomaniac never expects that to happen, nor thinks of the consequences.

Is the need for validation a valid need? Yes. I do believe it is.
Is it our role to validate our partner? Well... Yes... and no.

It’s our role to show respect, to communicate, to care for, to value, to do all the things a marriage is. Basically to hold and value and cherish.
As a partner, I guess we can also assume the responsibility of adding "spice" to the validation. Like flowers on Valentine is a given expectation, but maybe an unexpected bouquet on a mundane weekday isn’t. A goodbye peck every morning an expectation, but a full-fling grab and bend over good-bye French-kiss out of the blue isn’t.
What is NOT our role is to understand if the partner feels insecure and unvalidated if they aren’t sharing that info with us...

Like in your instance WB1340 – It’s my understanding that it began with a relatively "innocent" and benign comment from OM about your WW looks... Validation...
I have personally told a coworker that they look good; complimented a new hairstyle, commented positively about weight, new clothes... the big factor here is that it’s NEVER creepy or sexual. Like I might tell my coworker that I like the new hairstyle – but would never add that it makes me want to spend more time with them or that it made them look sexy. There is never an expectation of a reply-compliment. There is a very clear and broad ocean between compliments and sexually or emotionally charged compliments...

It's when the need for validation proves so strong that they seek more unhealthy or ongoing unhealthy validation that the infidelity really starts IMHO.
To use WB instance again: WB wife can’t be blamed for the OM first move, but she is responsible for not diverting and stopping any ongoing moves. I doubt the initial thought was to start an affair, but more a way to get more validation. It then becomes an issue for the WS on how to justify the ongoing validation-feed.

It’s extremely common that we then use all sorts of excuses to justify our actions. Often retrospective excuses. In nearly all instances these "excuses" don’t really hold water.
Like a cheating husband finds it easier to lay the blame on the frigid wife rather than admit that the OW showing him attention validated him, or that getting a BJ in the parking-lot by a bar validated that he still "had it" despite middle-age, a bald-spot and beer gout. The cheating spouse might state the affair-sex was so good, and that is why they cheated, when logically the cheating actually started BEFORE they had the comparison...
It’s IMHO all excuses that are easier to deal with rather than the truth: I have issues that make me feel insecure and I need validation...

MAYBE WB wife justified her actions behind that since it was "only" online and not physical and nobody knew then it didn’t really hurt anyone, therefore neither really being infidelity nor harmful to Mr. WB... Once again: It’s extremely common that we then use all sorts of excuses to justify our actions, excuses that don’t hold water.

There are definitely many relationship "needs", and we should as a couple be aware of them. There can be a dry spell in the sex-department for various reasons, and as a COUPLE you deal with it. That "deal" might be a compromise, it might be temporary, or it might be permanent. But as a couple you find that solution that you can live with. Same applies to more-or-less all aspects of married, working-together aspects of life: money, time, chores, childcare... Plenty of relationships "needs", and many of them are necessary. But many aren’t or can be met with other alternatives.

It IS a delicate balance. Asking my wife for a compliment to assure me she still loves me won’t really cut it. It’s MY role as a husband to find ways to make her experience that I still love her and appreciate her in all the ways a woman/wife/mother/partner/best friend should be appreciated. All I can do is do my best. It’s then more of an issue if she recognizes the validation and accepts it.

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Slight thread-jack since it’s the same crowd on this thread and not wanting to add traffic to the original thread. I will not be making any other statements on this issue.

We on Staff have a semi-official policy of minimizing mentions of other sites and especially in negative terms. This site (SI) has repeatedly been slagged on other forums, as well as praised. It’s our stance that it’s better we just sort-of let it all slide, because if you wrestle with pigs everybody ends up dirty. It might be the same mentality as with favorite sports-teams: you praise YOUR team/forum and talk dirt about other teams/forums for totally illogical reasons.
As an attaché my role is a bit like an enforcer on a hockey team. I have a bit more leeway than Mods and Admins, and maybe a slightly louder voce and bigger stick than Guides. Since this is an "unofficial" policy then I evaluated that I respond on the other thread as the Attache without the "As Staff" warning.
Nobody did anything wrong; no direct guideline was broken...
To quote one of my favorite comedians: It’s like passing wind in an elevator – it’s not illegal, but I personally wait until the lobby...

Thanks for explaining Bigger. All good.