SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello again. It's been a bit since I posted last, and it's been a little over 6 months since D-day for me. I find myself in a strange kind of limbo that I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you guys can shed some light on things for me.

On D-day I immediately decided that I wanted to reconcile. I told her but had some conditions. The first being the affair must end fully and completely, and the second is she needs to start being 100% honest with me. In retrospect I think that was a mistake. I was in shock and the seriousness of the situation hadn't really sunk in yet. I should have probably waited to see if she was up for the task. But thats where we are at.

I immediately went into marriage repair mode (probably hysterical bonding actually). I spent a lot of energy trying to give her the things she said she was missing from our relationship. Things like opening doors, going on dates, spending time together, etc. I am a pretty nice person, and was generally VERY nice to her. I also spent a lot of energy trying to prevent contact with her affair partner, and get her to break it off fully. It took two and a half months for her to really break it off, and that only after I left (only overnight) and threatened divorce.

I have since come to the realization that I was trying to "fix" a marriage that she had already destroyed. I was trying to fix a memory. That and the realization that problems in the marriage DID NOT cause her to choose to have an affair. But thats a topic for another day.

In that two month period everything I asked her to do to help me trust her again she heavily resisted, and anything she did was only after me asking many times, and still with a lot of feet dragging.

After she officially broke it off with him, she started doing more of the things I wanted, still with resistance but not as much as before. Eventually she would do them though.

She is doing and saying a lot in support of our relationship. But the things she is not doing, or things she resists me on, are causing me to pause and reconsider if she is really as committed as she says she is.

First the good:

- She took, and passed, a lie detector test that I requested
- She has read a couple of books I suggested
- She is kind to me and leaves me little love notes or apology notes
- She wants to be close to me physically, and also makes it a point to include me in her plans, and also plans dates
- She says she loves me often
- She is still doing normal things around the house like she used to. Making dinner, cleaning things up, running the kids around etc. I do this stuff when I'm off work, but it often falls on her because I work all day
- She is planning long term things with me - showing that she views us as being together long term
- We spend a lot of time together. I really enjoy her company, and it's been nice getting back to that
- She installed a gps tracker app
- She gave me permission to look at her phone and read her messages or emails, to get on her computers, etc.
- She got rid of some physical reminders of the affair.
- She willingly suggested and is going to IC, and we were going to MC for a while (until I nixed that because I didn't like the way the therapist was handling it)

Now the not so good:

- Everything I can think of that I have asked her to do for me she has put up significant resistance on before doing it.

* It was two months before she took the lie detector test and that was with much stress and many objections.
* It also took me two months to convince her to read "The Courage to Stay", which I feel is a really appropriate book for us at that time.
* The next book was "How to Help your Spouse Heal from Your Affair", which she listened to on Audible right away and REALLY didn't like. I suggested that maybe it rubbed her the wrong way listening to it. I said I agree with like 98% of the book, and I bought her a physical copy, and asked her to read it and underline which parts specifically she didn't agree with. She absolutely refused to do that, handing the book back to me.
* The tracking app only took 3 or 4 weeks to convince her to install.
* It took her 6 months to get rid of the physical reminders of the affair. And that only after I asked nearly a dozen times in that period with her finally promising to do it in October. She didn't do it in October, so I brought it up again complaining that she promised and didn't uphold her promise. Then she reluctantly gave them to me for disposal. I asked her to get rid of anything at all that reminded her of the affair, but she only gave me the things I explicitly knew about already. Nothing else. She semi-defiantly says "most of the things are in my head anyway, not physical"

- She is constantly complaining of feeling like she is barely able to keep her head above water, and is on the edge of breaking down anytime we have a discussion.

- She continues to bring up past grievances when ever we have difficult discussions. Even after we have discussed them at length, I have explained my side, apologized for anything I feel I can, and promised to do better. Yet they continue to come up with the same or greater emotional intensity.

- She maintains the view that our marriage had a "rift" that I was partially responsible for and that contributed to her affair. I resist her a lot here because I feel like it's blame shifting, marriages don't cause affairs, and also most of her complaints she never discussed until after the affair was revealed. I am willing to do things she need me to do, I was before the affair as well, but she never talked to me about this stuff before.

- She says she is "sorry she hurt me", but has never said "the affair was wrong, and I will never do it again". The closest I have gotten from her is "I will never have another affair because it has been so painful leaving my affair partner and seeing you in pain"

- Most of the things to address the affair I have come up with. She doesn't usually come up with things on her own.

It seems like she just wants the affair to go away, and to be swept under the rug. This is something cannot do under any circumstances.

Anyway theres probably more I could write, but this is getting rather long.

The thing I'm trying to figure out is if these are bad signs that I should be more concerned about, or if she is on the path and I should be patient and let her make progress? Is this just me being nice again and ignoring bad signs? Or am I just being impatient and I should let things continue unfolding? My therapist says people need time to change, but I'm concerned that I just don't see a lot of change happening, and she is still resisting me on things.

I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse. But again that could simply be because this sucks and she regrets having to end the affair. Who knows.

A few thoughts ...

I think it's best to ask your WS to do things you want them to do, but it's also best to have a plan in case the WS says, 'No.'

IMO, each request is a test. To continue in R, the BS needs a vast majority of 'yes' responses with appropriate follow-through. Too many 'noes' should probably kill R.

*****

I also think IC for the WS is a good requirement for R. WSes need to turn their internal lives around. They need to change from cheater to good partner, and that's very difficult even with the help of a good IC. If a WS won't look deep inside, they won't be able to make the necessary changes. You don't mention IC. Has your W started? Do you think she's come clean with her IC? Are you in IC?

*****

She's still blameshifting, and R is impossible with a blameshifter.

*****

What do you hope to get from her reading books? My guess is some changes, and my guess is you care about the changes, not about the book.

My reco is to ask directly for the changes. But again, you need to figure out what you'll do if she says, 'No.'

*****

I don't think you're in a 'weird limbo.' You describe a sitch in which you have substantial evidence that your WS is not fully committed to the R that you want.

My reco is to define the R that you want in measurable, observable terms, to prepare yourself to call an end to R, and to confront your W with your concerns. Find out if you and she can come to an agreement on what R will be. If you don't come to that agreement, my reco would be to end your M. You don't need to be tied down to someone who betrays you and thinks you're the problem.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:23 PM, Thursday, November 14th]

You don't mention IC. Has your W started? Do you think she's come clean with her IC? Are you in IC?

Yes we are both in IC, and have been since about two weeks after D-day. This is part of the reason I'm feeling conflicted. Maybe she is handling it with her IC as she says she is, and I should just leave it be. I don't know.

Maybe you should reread HTHYSHFYA.

Your wife is doing the "haphazard but well intended" method of reconciliation also referred to as "detain and torture".

I got the quote a bit wrong, but the spirit right.

here it is:

4. Make a bungled, haphazard effort to save the marriage.

This option is usually chosen by a well-intentioned partner who is clueless about the depth of the damage caused by his/her unfaithful behavior. In his or her efforts to calm the hurting partner, the betrayer often says things like, "You should be over this by now" or, "I said I was sorry!" or, "What else do you want me to do? I can’t take it back."

The rely-on-my-own-judgment approach usually magnifies the pain and leads to a more drawn out blood-letting of the marriage until it dies.

I call this the "Detain and Torture Option."

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:27 PM, Thursday, November 14th]

I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse.

Actually, you aren’t seeing remorse. She’s not that far along. You are seeing regret. Regret is when you wish for a different result, like when you send regrets for not being able to attend a friend’s wedding. Remorse is a moral feeling you get when you realize you have failed to act morally. As you said, she has not stated that the affair was wrong. She sends you her regrets for hurting you but is not remorseful for having the affair. Contrition is not even on her horizon. There is a primer on this site someplace where the concepts of regret, remorse, and contrition are thoroughly discussed. I couldn’t find it just now but I know it is somewhere on SI. There is also a good discussion by Dr. George Simon on shame, guilt, regret, remorse, and contrition on the internet.

I made some of the same mistakes that I think you are making. You jumped to R before you had gathered enough facts, but you know that. Second, you are trying to make your WW change. Brother, you can only change you. She will change if she wants to. You don’t know yet whether R is attainable or even worth trying for. There are several articles in the Healing Library for newly betrayed. There is one about what the wayward spouse goes through when withdrawing from an affair. You can benefit by reading a lot of these articles, as well as the pinned posts on JFO and Reconciliation. No one knows if your wife will become truly remorseful and want to recommit to you. That takes time and it is entirely up to her.

I hope you get out of infidelity, with or without your wife. I am far from an expert, but I don’t think pushing books on her will help your cause.

The bad things in your list to me, are really bad. Its like, if you take them individually they are not ideal, but not complete deal breakers, but combined together, to me paints a picture that all the items on your good list are fake, going through the motions to placate you. To me, a remorseful WS that really wants you and the marriage would metaphorically be on their hands and knees begging you to stay daily. Any request you make should be an enthusiastic yes from her.

I think your big mistake is jumping right in to wanting R, and then having to lead her around. Is there anything that she spearheaded towards recovery? Or have you had to tell her everything you needed?
The good news is it sounds like you are almost in a "I don’t give a shit anymore" stage, which contrary to conventional wisdom, gets you closer to what you want. You really have to get to a place where divorce is fine with you in order to get your power back. I don’t see anywhere in your story where she believes divorce is a real possibility?

Consequences are important.
Most of the time with a WS like this, it’s not until separation and divorce proceedings are in motion where they finally pull their head out of their ass. Sometimes for the BS it’s already too late at that point.

Hmmm. looks like you are putting the cart before the horse, in that you are deciding to R from the get-go, rather than taking a step back to assess the situation holistically, where you can then make sound choices/decisions on which pathway to take, R or D. You are only taking all the actions that you think you need to head towards R.

- She took, and passed, a lie detector test that I requested

* It was two months before she took the lie detector test and that was with much stress and many objections.

- She has read a couple of books I suggested

* It also took me two months to convince her to read "The Courage to Stay", which I feel is a really appropriate book for us at that time.

- She installed a gps tracker app

* The tracking app only took 3 or 4 weeks to convince her to install.

- She got rid of some physical reminders of the affair.

* It took her 6 months to get rid of the physical reminders of the affair. And that only after I asked nearly a dozen times in that period with her finally promising to do it in October. She didn't do it in October, so I brought it up again complaining that she promised and didn't uphold her promise. Then she reluctantly gave them to me for disposal. I asked her to get rid of anything at all that reminded her of the affair, but she only gave me the things I explicitly knew about already. Nothing else. She semi-defiantly says "most of the things are in my head anyway, not physical"

You are also romanticizing the 'effort' your WW has put into the R process, where you seem to be spoon-feeding her what she should be doing. She does not give up all the physical reminders of her AP possibly because she is still planning to be with him once she has you lulled into a false sense of security.

When you have to spoon-feed a reluctant party, they will probably just go along with what you want, just to make you happy and save themselves grief. This course of actions seems to stem from your desperate need to R and not consider any other pathways.

You are trying to push your WW towards R, and she may or may not want R, so both your end-goals are not matching, which keeps you in limbo.

If the wayward wanted the R pathway, they would be doing all that you listed on their own without you prompting/leading them. They would be bending over backwards to try and earn your trust back.

In your case, your WW is dragging her feet, like the reluctant child who is told to go back into the house when she really wants to play outside with her 'friend'.

I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse.

Perhaps you meant to say 'I definitely don't see remorse, only guilt.'? If your WW felt remorse, she would be doing things to try and earn a chance at R, to make sure that you feel safe with her.

But again that could simply be because this sucks and she regrets having to end the affair.

Going to be blunt here: I have a sneaky feeling this is the current situation, as she has not had any serious consequences (apart from not being able to cavort with her AP). She is still blaming you for the A, and you seem to be accepting it, confusing blame for the A to blame for the breakdown of the M. The state of the M is never to be taken as an excuse for an A. There are choices that can be made where an A never happens. Your WW probably knows that you will never leave her, so she feels that she does not have to do anything, and that you will do all the work.

RR

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 7:13 AM, Friday, November 15th]

I agree with many of the previous posters in that she is not remorseful and is more sad over having to end the affair. 🚩🚩

I agree with many of the posters that she is not doing what is needed without hesitation and dragging her feet. 🚩🚩. That is a sign she’s not "all in" for the marriage but is reluctantly going along to "shut you up" as the betrayed spouse.

From experience I can tell you after my H’s first affair he never admitted to, he had no remorse. And that just made it easier to have a 2nd affair. I rugswept the first affair and made a huge mistake!

After his second affair I was dragging him into R and doing all the heavy lifting. What was he doing? Continuing to cheat. He did next to nothing on his own — just like your wife.

At dday2 if affair 2 I had enough and told him I was D him — no other choice. He’s now begging me to R. And I’m not interested. But I noticed he started doing a tremendous amount of work on rectifying the situation. He made changes to make me feel more secure in his own. He read books on his own.

Honestly I didn’t lift a finger to help him during R part 2. He had to prove to me HE was worth it.

I suggest the same for you. Let your cheating spouse prove to YOU that you are worth it. Do nothing. Sit back and watch. After 3 months you will be surprised - good or bad. Either the cheater steps up or doesn’t — either way you will have a clear answer as to what her intentions and commitment are.

I hope this helps you. IMO it’s a mistake to tell the cheater what to do to R. If the cheater had the brain power to lie and cheat on their own, they have the brain power to figure out how to make amends and R and repair the trauma from the nuclear bomb they leveled on the marriage/relationship.

Hi-

Former ws here.

I want to be careful because only you know your wife and I would not want to interfere with your gut instincts about what you are looking at. I can make no assurances on what work she will or won’t do.

The early stages after d-day are disorienting for both people. For you, grief always starts out with denial and bargaining. Telling yourself that you can get back to where you were before. The reality is that is gone and something has to be rebuilt in its place. But first, the thing that has to be healed are the two individuals involved.

As a ws who honestly probably did worse than your wife in the first six months after dday, I can share a few insights that I think are true for people who have had limerant affairs. Given what you said, that’s what your wife had.

It’s a kind of addiction. When it starts it’s always a lot of justifications, telling yourself you are entitled after all you have done for others. And then you come to depend on it because of the rush of dopamine it brings. It’s something that makes you feel worse in some ways so the only way to relieve the bad feelings is to ignore them and grab on harder to the addiction.

It’s kind of like a brainwashing. And in the aftermath as we are saying and doing stupid things we are unrecognizable to our spouse.

I agree with the others who said your wife is not yet remorseful. For a while, regret, guilt, shame all are so big it’s hard to let in the rest. Remorse is when they have full empathy over what they did to you. It took me probably 8-10 months for that to start sinking in.

A ws isn’t going to go from a selfish cheating lying state back to how they were before over night. It takes some unwinding. Lots of epiphanies.

My advice to you is to focus on yourself, what you need, what you want, and pursue your own healing. We have a saying here about letting go of the outcome of the marriage. Unless you know you are ready to divorce, it’s best to try and detach a lot. Stop trying to pull the mule, so to speak. You will exhaust yourself and the mule will still move at it’s own pace.

Your wife should be in IC. The complexities of what she must tackle to heal herself are too great to wing it. It does sound like she is trying to figure more out by your list, but it’s not just about repairing the relationship. The state of the relationship is a symptom of her problems that she must get deeper to address. She didn’t cheat because of you or the marriage, she cheated because she has a lot of issues that need to be worked on.

I would like to thank everyone for responding to my post. I appreciate it.

I will respond individually below:

sisoon

I think your comment is good advice!

My reco is to define the R that you want in measurable, observable terms, to prepare yourself to call an end to R, and to confront your W with your concerns.

This is the difficult part I guess. Or at least I'm having a hard time coming up with what R should look like.

This0Is0Fine

Your wife is doing the "haphazard but well intended" method of reconciliation also referred to as "detain and torture".

You could be right. However she never says anything like "You should be over this by now", or "I said I was sorry!", she just resists me whenever I ask for things.

The rely-on-my-own-judgment approach usually magnifies the pain and leads to a more drawn out blood-letting of the marriage until it dies.

She isn't really doing the rely-on-my-own-judgement thing since she is in IC. It might actually be worse though since I don't think her IC is someone who knows much about how to address infidelity. She has had her read two Ester Perel books, and said my wife "did the right thing" early on when she protected the feelings of her affair partner at my expense.

Unfortunately her IC is an area I have zero control over; so I will just have to accept it whether I like her or not.

Notsogreatexpectations

It's difficult to convey enough information in a single post to paint a clear enough picture without writing a book. I know her pretty well (or at least I thought it I did before the affair), and to me it seems like she is having remorse based on her attitude and her actions.

I made some of the same mistakes that I think you are making. You jumped to R before you had gathered enough facts, but you know that. Second, you are trying to make your WW change. Brother, you can only change you. She will change if she wants to.

This is good advice. I need to focus on myself, and be clear with what I want to see from her.

OhItsYou

The bad things in your list to me, are really bad.

Yeah I agree. It's causing me a lot of concern. However like I said above it might look worse than it is because it's difficult to convey enough information in a couple of posts to get a clear picture of whats going on. Also I forget important facts (sorry).

For example I forgot to mention that she was the one who told me about the affair in the first place. That told me that she did want to reconcile in the beginning which was part of the reason I worked so hard to fix things. She could have kept it a secret and let me find out in other (worse) ways if she didn't care about reconciliation.

She was also the one to suggest IC and MC, and found a couple of our MC's and signed us up for them.

Consequences are important

I think this is very true, and the big mistake I made early on. But what to do about it right now is less clear. Especially when she seems to be willing to R except for the resistance to all my suggestions that is...

RocketRaccoon

Hmmm. looks like you are putting the cart before the horse, in that you are deciding to R from the get-go, rather than taking a step back to assess the situation holistically, where you can then make sound choices/decisions on which pathway to take, R or D. You are only taking all the actions that you think you need to head towards R.

I 100% agree. In my shocked and confused state I made many mistakes. And I'm sure I will continue making them, hopefully less though.

When you have to spoon-feed a reluctant party, they will probably just go along with what you want, just to make you happy and save themselves grief. This course of actions seems to stem from your desperate need to R and not consider any other pathways.

This is part of the reason I made this post in the first place. I'm concerned that in a year or two our marriage will actually fail because of whatever is driving her to resist my efforts.

You are trying to push your WW towards R, and she may or may not want R, so both your end-goals are not matching, which keeps you in limbo.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I think she is into R as long as I can "take responsibility for my part in the rift in our marriage".

She told her best friend early on, that she is willing to try for R as long as I am willing to change. What!? OMG.

The1stWife

From experience I can tell you after my H’s first affair he never admitted to, he had no remorse. And that just made it easier to have a 2nd affair. I rugswept the first affair and made a huge mistake!

After his second affair I was dragging him into R and doing all the heavy lifting. What was he doing? Continuing to cheat. He did next to nothing on his own — just like your wife.

I wouldn't say she is doing nothing. She is doing some stuff, thats why I feel like it's a kind of limbo. She is doing stuff, but also resisting. However this is exactly what I'm afraid of. I can't allow rug sweeping to happen, because we will end up in this same place years later. Especially since she seems to be wanting me to change, implying that if I don't she is out.

hikingout

I think your advice is very balanced, and I appreciate that it's coming from a former WS.

As a ws who honestly probably did worse than your wife in the first six months after dday, I can share a few insights that I think are true for people who have had limerant affairs. Given what you said, that’s what your wife had.

This is again why I feel like I'm in limbo. I don't think she is doing terribly. I have definitely heard much worse stories, that I personally wouldn't be able to work through. So I am grateful she is at least doing this much relative to those stories I've heard.

I agree with the others who said your wife is not yet remorseful. For a while, regret, guilt, shame all are so big it’s hard to let in the rest. Remorse is when they have full empathy over what they did to you. It took me probably 8-10 months for that to start sinking in.

This appears to be the consensus... I guess I'll have to put some more thought to it to see what is really going on.

My advice to you is to focus on yourself, what you need, what you want, and pursue your own healing. We have a saying here about letting go of the outcome of the marriage. Unless you know you are ready to divorce, it’s best to try and detach a lot. Stop trying to pull the mule, so to speak. You will exhaust yourself and the mule will still move at it’s own pace.

This is also good advice, and lines up with the other comments above.

My only issue with the wait and see approach that several people have suggested, is that it seems like my wife wants to sweep things under the rug, and there is no way I'm on board for that. So I'm trying to find a way that I can ensure this is not happening. A way of seeing her making progress to become a safer partner. A way to get out of this strange limbo I feel like I'm in.

Like if she was an alcoholic I would expect her to avoid alcohol, and also attend 12 step meetings. How do I do that with an affair? She says she is working on things with her IC (who I am not a huge fan of), but that is all private and she doesn't talk about what they talk about or do. So I have her continuing to resist me, and saying that she is working on herself. But on the outside all I can see is the resistance, and I just have to "trust" that she is really doing the necessary work inside of herself.

I keep flip flopping between "it's going to work, we are going to be able to fix our relationship!", and "we are just delaying the inevitable, and she isn't really wanting to reconcile". It's exhausting.

[This message edited by Theevent at 4:18 PM, Friday, November 15th]

You are probably getting such pushback on the state of the marriage being the cause of the affair because that’s what counselors that recommend books by that turd Perel do.
You were in the same marriage and didn’t cheat.
It’s easy for me to say this and harder to implement, but that IC of hers needs to go. She needs to be seeing someone who has experience in infidelity trauma. Not someone who helps blame others for their broken psyche.

She has had her read two Ester Perel books, and said my wife "did the right thing" early on when she protected the feelings of her affair partner at my expense. mad

I think this is a bigger deal, or maybe a view into the main issue you are having here. Her ethical framework is essentially still "unsafe" and it's making you uncomfortable. She might have a good relationship with you, but she hasn't really established devotion. More like she has established a "good" relationship with you and thinks that ought to be enough.

You may get some help defining R in observable terms by reading this: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/324250/things-that-every-ws-needs-to-know/.

One way I described my requirements was:

I recommend thinking of R as 3 healings:

1) You heal you. Most BSes are inundated with immense amounts of one or more of grief, anger, fear, shame on d-day. The largest part of your work is to process those feelings out of your body. A good IC can help you do this.

2) Your WS heals themself. They need to change from cheater to good partner. I think that requires IC for the WS, but others disagree.

3) Together you build a new M.

This means you can recover from being betrayed without your WS; that is, you can survive this crisis and thrive without your WS, but you need your WS to R. You can heal yourself because you control yourself. You don't control your WS. I recommend making 'survive and thrive' your primary goal and R your stretch goal.

Have you read the Healing Library here? If not, there's a lot of good stuff there. Click the link in the yellow box in the upper left of the SI pages.

I think there are a number of keys ingredients to R.

First, what do you want? Do you really want R? If not, don't lie to yourself - both R & D are morally good responses to being betrayed. R is hard work, and wanting it makes it less difficult, but it's difficult even when you want it.

I recommend figuring out your requirements for R and seeing if your WS will sign on. If they won't, perhaps they can come up with something else that will meet your requirements, but if you can't negotiate something truly acceptable to both of you, great - you can go directly to D. Otherwise, you can monitor them for 3-6 months and commit to R for yourself if they are (is?) consistent in meeting your requirements.

The requirements need to be observable and measurable. That way it's easy to monitor progress and make adjustments as you go along.

Common requirements include:

NC - no contact with ap; if ap initiates contact, report to BS and together decide how to respond

Transparency - BS has passwords to e-mail, voice-mail, phones, etc.; WS keeps BS informed of whereabouts, activities, and companions at virtually all times

Honesty - WS answers BS's questions when they're asked, although sometimes a break is necessary, sometimes an answer is best deferred to MC session, etc., no more lies.

IC for WS - to change the thoughts and feelings that supported the A, with signed release that enables C to talk with BS about WS's goals and progress (so the BS can make sure WS's IC isn't being lied to).

IC for BS - for support - and for resolving any internal issue that comes up

MC - to help communications between the partners. Be careful to avoid MCs who don't deal with the A first. An MC who starts off trying to identify systemic problems probably won't help. You need someone who will help resolve the trauma before going into systemic problems.

Some (Most?) people have individual requirements - my W had to arrange dates for us on a weekly basis and must initiate sex sometimes. What do you want from your W?

And R is a joint endeavor - if one of you hides objections to the other's requirements, you sabotage R. And you have to see your WS as a human being of worth equal to your own to make R work. You don't have to see your WS as a human being whose worth is equal to your own, but you sure can't R, except with an equal.

*****

There was a more important way I described my requirements, but they are only slightly measurable at best - and possibly not really measurable at all:

1) I wanted my W to love me - want the best for me, help me get what I wanted.

2) I wanted her to be in love with me. Now I realize that means' 'desire me sexually.'

3) I wanted her to agree to monogamy (again).

If she couldn't give me those things, I wanted to D.

The first few years of R were very difficult because, IMO, false R and true R look the same. I was constantly focused on questions like, 'Is she doing that because she wants to, or because she doesn't want to be dumped?'

Life got better as we talked about our 'love languages'. Cooking dinner wasn't a big deal for me; I think I can happily eat almond butter sandwiches for the rest of my life. OTOH, it was one of my W's ways of demonstrating love. I have a hard time keeping my hands off her, so I touch her when we pass each other. It's one of my ways of showing love. W is startled by unexpected touch. I started recognizing love when W cooks, etc. W asked me to make my touches more solid and last longer; I didn't mind doing that at all.....

I've read that the love language hypothesis/theory has been discredited, but it helped us.

In my shocked and confused state I made many mistakes.

You know, it’s never too late to say this to your wife, meaning you now view it as a mistake you immediately committed to R, and that given her resistance to change, given you having to force everything down her throat, you are now seriously questioning her commitment to the M, and you still don’t feel safe with her. And you shouldn’t because, at least from here, she does NOT seem safe.

You’re convinced she was immediately committed to R since she confessed. She very well could have been expecting you to end the M, which many do when learning of such a massive betrayal. In other words, how do you know this wasn’t an exit affair? She explicitly said she was heartbroken over having to break up with OM. While you may appreciate the honesty, I can’t help but wonder if you’ve made way too many assumptions about where she is/was coming from….

OhItsYou

You are probably getting such pushback on the state of the marriage being the cause of the affair because that’s what counselors that recommend books by that turd Perel do.

These are my thoughts as well. Ester Perel = no bueno!

It’s easy for me to say this and harder to implement, but that IC of hers needs to go.

I might be able to convince her to add an additional therapist but she really likes the therapist she has and considers it a private things that I really have no say in.

This0is0Fine

I think this is a bigger deal, or maybe a view into the main issue you are having here. Her ethical framework is essentially still "unsafe" and it's making you uncomfortable. She might have a good relationship with you, but she hasn't really established devotion. More like she has established a "good" relationship with you and thinks that ought to be enough.

Yes I think both points you make are accurate. The fact that most of the affair recovery materials out there push the idea that the betrayed spouse is partially to blame for the affair, are the main reason she is so attached to this idea.

It's pretty annoying watching youtube videos and about 3 minutes into them they say something like "take a look at what you did to contribute to this situation"

sisoon

You make some good points! And yes I have read things that every ws needs to know. Very good article!

This is actually a big part of the reason I made this post in the first place. She is doing many of the things everyone says need to happen.

NC - check AFAIK
Transparency - partial check (I can get on her devices, and read things that are open or already logged in, but thats it)
IC - check
MC - check, until I broke it off
IC for me - Check

She is doing more than this as well, like I put in my original post. She was even the one who suggested MC and IC in the first place.

This is why the Limbo. She is doing a lot, but the things she isn't doing are causing me stress.

With all these turbulent emotions present it's difficult to tell if I'm making mountains out of mole hills or if they are actually mountains.

gr8ful

You know, it’s never too late to say this to your wife, meaning you now view it as a mistake you immediately committed to R

I have considered this for sure! I'm not sure I'm ready to commit to what that might mean, and I don't want to do any sabotaging if there is a chance at R (mountains vs mole hills again).

You’re convinced she was immediately committed to R since she confessed. She very well could have been expecting you to end the M, which many do when learning of such a massive betrayal. In other words, how do you know this wasn’t an exit affair?

I specifically added questions to the lie detector test that addressed this idea, and she passed it. Now it's always possible that she found a way to fake it, but I doubt it. So as far as I'm concerned she is willing to R, or at least was at the time 4 months ago.

She explicitly said she was heartbroken over having to break up with OM.

Yes thats true. From what I can tell though, this is a common reaction to ending long term affairs. So even though it bothers me at lot , I'm trying to not let it get into my thinking too much. Time and distance (NC) should lessen this feeling.

Looks like you are a very empathetic person. This is a great quality if you are in a healthy M. Of course we all know that your M is not anywhere near healthy at the moment, and that is why you will probably need to change your mindset a little.

Your WW is highly likely feeing guilt, and not remorse. The difference between them is the mindset; guilt looks inward (woe is me), whilst remorse is outward looking (how can I help the BS), so, from what you have posted, it looks very much like guilt is still your WW's mindset, as she is still protecting herself. She resists/drags her feet on doing anything to help you as she is protecting herself at your expense.

As to R, WSs are not entitled to it. They have to earn a chance (meaning R is not guaranteed) to walk the R path with the BS.

How does the WS earn the chance at R? With a lot of hard work on their end, to make themselves safe for the BS with consistent effort, and to actually listen to what the BS needs. At the moment, the lack of unfettered access to all her communications/electronic devices is worrying. She is still hiding things, or keeping memories she shared with her AP private between them.

As to her IC, a reason why your WW may like the IC so much is that the IC may be telling your WW what she wants to hear, and not what your WW needs to hear. The IC may be singing praises about your WWs courage to tell you about the A, the bravery of facing you, to embrace the sadness of the loss of the A, that it is okay to keep pining away for the AP, that your WW probably experienced a 'love' that few have experienced (just did a mind vomit there), etc. All this does is it keeps your WW in the wayward mindset, and stays in the guilt phase rather than move on to the remorse phase.

You asked how you can get out of limbo. Well, a simple way would be to chart your own pathway forward without depending on your WW, and start that journey. Start the 180. This will help you keep moving on and healing as you will be looking out for yourself. If your WW decides she would like to have a chance at R, she could start running to try and catch up with you.

What you are fighting now seems to be that you have too much empathy for your WW, and you are putting that above your own healing. Heal yourself first, then look after others after you have healed. If you don't do this, you risk losing yourself at the expense of saving others.

Two thoughts…

The good news is it sounds like you are almost in a "I don’t give a shit anymore" stage, which contrary to conventional wisdom, gets you closer to what you want. You really have to get to a place where divorce is fine with you in order to get your power back.

Once I got to the point where I was OK if we went our separate ways, everything got better. I stopped trying to manipulate her (that is what you have been doing, manipulating her (and she, you)) and just let her know I wouldn’t live this way. And I meant it.

This means I no longer am going to try to manipulate her, I am just going to watch.

It also means she can’t manipulate me. She can just act or not. No more words.

The other thought is, she may do everything exactly right and it still isn’t enough. You don’t owe her a reconciliation. Always remember that.

I like Gr8ful’s approach to retconning your mistakes. You should think on what and how he said it.
I do think in conjunction with that, you also make separation and divorce a real threat.

Hi TE, sorry you're in in it. I'm Mindjob, a near 50 y/o Gen-Xer, married 25 years ago, and 2 sons, 1 teen. I handled the aftermath of my wife's adultery with a church friend much like you did and are, and I learned a few things (here on SI and from my own observations). You have an excellent sense of assessment, come up with plans and follow through, list out your goals and desires, and seem entirely competent and willing to captain your own ship. These are all very, very good traits and characteristics, and it gratifies me immensely (and makes me slightly jealous in retrospect) to see you navigating these new waters with a firm grasp on the core skills you'll need to...well I don't think the word "thrive" is the right word, but I think "solidly plant your feet on the holyshitboat and steer with a clear eye" will serve nicely.

You have golden, lovely advice from some of my favorite people here on SI. I still regularly quote stuff I have learned from sissoon and I regard him as one of the elder statesmen that advised me on righting my own ship of state. There are others, but point being, I won't give you specific tactical or early-storm survival advice here, but rather share a few differences in the mindset(s) I ended up with. You seem to be handling the situation in a similar fashion to the way I did, so I want to share a few items that I saw as pitfalls in the early going. Please keep in mind that nothing anyone writes here is gospel, and everything on SI (including my input) is best grazed at for what is most useful to you.

In no particular order:

1) The marriage is dead. She killed it, and it will never return.

You've already started to get a good hold on this, but it's a critical point, so I'll reinforce it, here.

This concept was really hard for me. I, too, wanted to "save" the marriage, but quickly realized that this sentiment was actually holding me back from saying and doing what I needed to do. In some cases, holding on to the corpse of the marriage, the fading innocence and beauty of it, enabled my recently-adulterous, not-yet-changed WW manipulate me -- which is an entirely unacceptable situation, post-A and in marriage generally.

We use the word "Reconciliation" but what we're really doing is building an entirely new marriage from scratch. This has to be done in complete truth and authenticity, with competence and awareness from both parties.

And...here's the hard part...the old marriage has to die completely. It has to be mourned, eulogized, put on a longboat, pushed out to sea, and set ablaze with flaming arrows whilst you look on with manly tears trickling unimpeded down your impassive face.

The new marriage you build doesn't start forming until bothpartners are worthy and willing to build it in skill and demonstrated commitment. As a man, you can and should be leading this process (my Judeo-Christian predilection, feel free to discard if it offends). But you should never drive this process. A good marriage is two people standing together and contributing 100% of what they have to offer. I trust you will immediately pick up on the value and differences between leading vs driving, and move to the 2nd point, which is closely related to the first.

2) You are dead. She killed you, and you will never return.

What on earth do you mean by that, Mindjob? Well, that's one of the reasons I picked the name Mindjob. This was likewise one of the hardest things to wrap my mind around. But, accepting this fact and its implications ended up being one of the most valuable, far-reaching tools in the belt, both in the short term, and long term.

-In the short term: Understanding that my old self has actually been violently ejected from this mortal coil puts a lot of my ongoing suffering into context. In the aftermath when I was randomly bursting into tears or raging by smashing a pile of branches with a shovel, my WW actually said she felt like she was "being punished" (which I now know is a flag for recognizing how selfish and self-centered a wayward is pre-changes. I would tell her "no, this is just me paying interest on the loan you took out" and leave it at that. (It's her responsibility to adjust to the new situation, and her responsibilities are not my responsibility. I'm curious about them, and they're important to me, but she must be the one to do them (and choosing to NOT pursue her responsibility is a clear decision that she's not choosing you and the new marriage; something to keep in mind.

I would also tell her these are the death throes of the old Mindjob that she poisoned and killed. She might be sad at that, but it's just the truth, and seeing how she deals with it is also enlightening. It helps put the landscape in context and also makes sure she has to face the full implications of what she's done without beating her over the head with them -- mostly.

This concept also helps short-term with the irritating phrase "I don't want to hurt you anymore" (resisting sharing details of the adultery). My response to this was: "You can't hurt me anymore. Not because you are unimportant, but because you've hurt me the most you possibly can short of actually injuring and physically killing me. But that's almost beside the point - the fact that you resist communicating doesn't fill me with confidence in you." (It's not a threat, it's just a statement of fact which she really should take into consideration, and gives you information about her state of being and skill levels.)

-In the long term: The old you dies off and the new guy grows into his place. This is inevitable and unavoidable. The concept of "that's just who I am" fades (or burns) into irrelevance in the death of the old self and growth of the new one. I'm not trying to scare you here, just inform you it WILL happen, and the more you are aware of the process and fair to yourself, the less you'll resist it and the more you just kind of find out what the new guy is like.

The new guy is different from the old guy. He's more authentic, he's more wise and informed. Maybe he's a lot less naive and relentlessly idealistic. He remembers and misses that innocence, but he knows the futility of trying to recapture a thing that is gone beyond recovery. He knows exactly what he wants, exactly what he needs, he has a plan, the ability to plan, and a ton of experience implementing those plans. He isn't afraid to hold himself and everyone around him to account for their responsibilities and is fearless in cutting rot out of his life, because he knows he will be fine even regrowing from scratch. He doesn't have "resilience" like he used, to, no. That word carries a brittleness that might shatter, and everyone are this new guy knows for damn sure that he doesn't shatter under pressure. He takes whatever comes his way and bends it to his unshakeable will. He's not as nice as the old guy, but he kind of enjoys that too, even as he acknowledges he leans into it a bit hard sometimes, just for fun.

Now...I'm not saying this image WILL be you, I'm just putting it up as possible example of what it looks like to grow into something you weren't before, and why that's ok (and even something to look forward to). Point being, you will change, sometimes not for the better, and that's ok. Be fair to yourself and every aspect of the new guy. You still have the ability to shape yourself, but pay attention to what is clay and what is stone.

3) Fragility is avoidance.

Your WW, like mine (was), apparently falls to pieces when faced with accountability and difficult conversations. Mentioning anything meaningful devolves her into the scared little girl that childhood and early family life wrecked.

I'll just say it: stop giving a shit about it. You must NOT be a jerk, or be mean, or deliberately hurtful. This situation is not license to abuse. However, if she can avoid facing the awful things she's done and the effects that her inaction continues to have, that's exactly what she's going to do. And if falling apart every time you mention it gives her an out because you back off, rather than (patiently but firmly) requiring her to face it and put in the work, she's going to use it every single time.

You don't need to be indifferent to her issues, but you do need to insist on her handling them. Until she does, she won't be any kind of worthy to build that new marriage we talked about above. I think I told my WW something like "I am building a better life and circumstances. I dearly want you to be a part of it. But unless you join in my new life with confidence, clarity, regard and respect, I will cut you from the branch and watch you fall. Don't confuse my love for weakness, and don't think my love compels me to do anything one way or another."

Again, not that we should deliberately crash around wrecking things (much) but that no situation is an excuse or reason to avoid putting in the work and doing the right thing. You can help with that accountability, but don't put in any work that others are obligated to do.

4) Leaving is always an option.

From now to the end of time. You will never, EVER go wrong by remembering this. It is always ok for you to leave. It's not always ideal (i.e. children do better in stable nuclear homes). But it's always okay. Your WW should always be completely aware of this. You should not threaten her with it every time you turn around and should NEVER be used as a lever to get what you want. But it absolutely MUST be present and understood by both of you.

I actually filled out divorce papers at one point. My WW caught wind of it and descended into hysterics. She said "I thought you wanted to build a new marriage?!" I asked "Have I informed you otherwise?" She: "No, but then what are those for?" pointing at the D papers. Me: "In case I ever need them, we'll have a leg up on the process."

She doesn't like it. Hell, I don't like it. But it's an option.

5) When it comes to improving oneself or working to be and do better: dragging your feet or refusing to choose IS a choice and it's not choosing your spouse and marriage.

It doesn't exactly inspire confidence in one's worthiness as a long-term partner.

You should tell her this. Nice and calm, just be dispassionately curious about what she does and how she responds. You'll make it through, whatever it is she decides.

This is especially important because of what you said about her mindset here:

- She says she is "sorry she hurt me", but has never said "the affair was wrong, and I will never do it again". The closest I have gotten from her is "I will never have another affair because it has been so painful leaving my affair partner and seeing you in pain"

This is utterly unacceptable. Why?

a) It is unconscionable to have this kind of moral incorrectness around your children. They MUST learn that betrayal and inflicting pain to human beings is, in fact, wrong. It's not just unpleasant. It's not just sub-ideal. It's wrong. Ask her if she thinks it would be "just painful" to see her children being deliberately subjected to soul-shattering harm and permanent emotional damage.

b) If the adultery isn't wrong, why did they hide it? Why is the whole thing mired in deception and deceit? Are these things good? The answer is, of course, they ARE wrong. This is one of the oldest, most ubiquitously understood sins that human beings commit, so much so that adulterers are still killed with rocks and swords in some parts of the world. And at some level, she already knows it's wrong, which is why she buried the whole thing (and still trying to bury it) like the cat turd it is.

Resolve to cut this kind of immorality out of your life, for your sake and for the sake of your children. If she's still holding on to it when you cut it out of your life, let her fall with it.

6) Problems must be dealt with now.

The handling of an issue does not improve with time. If it is not addressed it just festers out of site and compounds into something far worse. You can probably feel the long-term effects of unresolved issues from childhood as physical rot on the inside, if you have them. If you are well-adjusted, you (and she) will acquire health problems from not dealing with these issues now. Our brains try to shy away from the unpleasant sensations, because we instinctively try to avoid harm. But like gold is purified by heat, separating the dross from the metal so they can be scooped out, so too are we improved by dealing with unpleasant problems and ejecting them from our lives.

Accept nothing less. It gets far, far easier and natural to do this the more experience you both have doing it.

7) Separate the discussions.

There is no excuse for adultery. None. She is absolutely trying to justify her shit decisions with her grievances and this is utterly inadmissible. She needs to own up to the fact that her decisions were crappy. Until she's done so, there's no real recovery or possibility of reconciliation.

She'll never be honest about this process, at least not at the beginning. This is a skill that every wayward has to develop, and it's usually a long, hard haul for them to get there. Hold her to account as much as you care to, and be clear about your willingness to cut her loose if she can't firm up her ability to properly address individual situations.

During one of my WW's accusatory meltdowns I told her "You know, I'm actually all out of guilt. Since we've addressed this situation already, I can't figure out why you're bringing it up, other than to try and get one over on me. Trying to assert this kind of control over any relationship will kill it. If you want something from me, ask. And find better ways to motivate me."

--------

I'm a trucker, just got a load, so I'm off to New Orleans. I hope sharing what worked for me helps you in some way. You already seem to have a good handle on yourself. Take your time, be fair to yourself, and accept nothing less than the ideal from her. The time she has to do so is entirely up to you, and whatever decision you come up with in that regard will be the correct one. Some of those paths have a lower statistical chance of regret, but that's also for you to decide.

Take care;

-Mindjob

I can't allow rug sweeping to happen, because we will end up in this same place years later. Especially since she seems to be wanting me to change, implying that if I don't she is out.

🚩🚩🚩🚩

Typical cheater behavior BTW.

This is where YOU need to stand firm that she needs to stop blaming you and start making some serious changes.

Honestly what woke up my H up was when I told him I was D him. And I was. It was then he realized I was not going to rug sweep his behavior any longer and he couldn’t expect me to give in to him.

It took me a year to stop thinking I was D him after his 2nd affair. And I can tell you that he’s now afraid I will D him. Because he knows I can and will if I’m not happy.