SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

At its core, infidelity is self-destructive. I understand why many betrayed spouses feel as if the cheater "wins" whatever. I disagree. In order to cheat (at anything), the cheater must sacrifice his integrity, honor, self-respect, self-esteem, and the respect of others. He loses more than he gains, even if he fails to comprehend this simple truth.

This would be true if the Cheater possessed similar morals as we do. The lack of morals (or at least not valuing them) IMO are one of the things that allows people to cheat to begin with.

One of the things I struggled with most is trying to understand "how could she do this". I never will because she doesn’t possess MY morals. I can’t comprehend it and all those things listed helped keep me from cheating when opportunities came my way. My wife? Not so much. So she didn’t "sacrifice" those things because she either didn’t possess them or value them to begin with.

As far as "winning", I don’t think anyone truly "wins" in this scenario. But I have certainly "lost" more than her non-existent integrity, honor, self-respect, etc. if she HAD possessed those things or valued them, we likely wouldn’t even be here……

Now, the pro R crowd will say, they need more therapy, attempt emdr, attend support groups....

I take issue with that.

Putting aside the question of whether or not there is a 'pro-R crowd,' the people who say R is possible also counsel BSes whose WSes aren't doing the work to consider leaving or to leave if the BS thinks R has become a lost cause.

The recommendation for therapy comes when the BS isn't sure or when the BS describes a remorseful WS and a decision not to leave - but even then, the 'R is possible in some cases' crowd remind the BS that they can always end R.

The psychoanalyst Karen Horney wrote on pride. The proverb is 'Pride goeth before a fall.' Horney argues persuasively that pride causes falls. She sees pride and self-hate to be the same (check wes white's web site). Alas, Horney died in 1952 and has been almost forgotten. I read her stuff 50-50 years ago because my in-laws had a couple of her books. Hard to find now.

Maybe it's just me, over ten years past d-day and divorced, that believes a wayward spouse doesn't win a damned anything.

My exww's infidelity wasn't my first rodeo. My high school girlfriend cheated on me with one of my best friends. I swore then, as a teenager, that I would never tolerate that shit again. Decades later, when my wife cheated, I had a 4yo son and was, quite happily, a stay at home dad. At the moment of discovery, I knew my marriage was over. Within three months, I was talking to lawyers and a phone call away from filing for divorce. However, I couldn't pull the trigger and stayed for the kid.

Six years later, we divorced. There was something missing from our relationship, despite believing we'd reconciled, that simply couldn't be repaired or replaced.

It was faith. That's what she sacrificed for her little fling. I simply couldn't believe in her.

Years ago, a wayward wife wrote (and I'm paraphrasing here) that she doused herself wife gasoline, lit a match, then gave her husband a hug.

Waywards blow-up their own lives. We, the betrayed, are collateral damage. The damage is powerful. No doubt about it. As a BH once wrote: "It hit me in my DNA." The emotional and psychological scars will be with us for life. It is unjust, unfair, and there is no "balancing" recompense to be found. Or so it would seem.

What I've since learned, here on SI, in therapy and from extensive reading and research, is that healing is a choice.

Whether folks reconcile or divorce, we are all responsible for our own healing and happiness. We can dwell on the past or let it go. We can carry that baggage or drop it like it's hot.

I think a major problem on this site is the lack of a clear definition of what "reconciling" really means.

I think too many find a way to remain married despite an affair.

It’s like the goal is to coexist in a family-unit in a state where neither spouse has to fear for their lives. As if that’s good enough. Who knows – maybe a year or two from now you can pretend nothing happened, have sex, visit the Smiths across the road for dinner and outwardly seem like a happy couple.

Often this is done consciously, with some lame excuse like you are only there for the kids and will leave the moment junior leaves for college. Or that you can’t afford to separate, or that you will lose all your possessions or whatever.

These might all be great reasons to even contemplate reconciling, but if your aim isn’t to create a good marriage... then don’t sell yourself short and divorce already.

So yes... I guess we can say that if a couple deals with infidelity by not dealing with it other than maybe WS stops seeing OP then the WS "wins". If they think the ideal marriage is where they can enjoy whatever the union provides emotionally and physically, and yet also have some "fun" with OP despite BS protests... and if we – the BS allow them to do this. Maybe at the cost of 30 days of anger, argument, cold-shoulder and threats of divorce – then yes – the WS is getting what they want at a price they can accept. They "win".

But PLEASE don’t call it reconciliation. It’s coexisting, or cohabiting. Definitely not reconciliation.

Are all WS immoral and can’t/wont change?

Would that also apply to the founder of this site Deeply Scared, or the numerous other WS who contribute with such positiveness on this site? Do people really think that people are either moral or immoral and are grafted in that form for eternity? Is a spouse that cheats immoral before the affair, or do they become immoral by having an affair. If so – is this a once-in-a-lifetime irreversible change? Or is it more plausible that people can do moral or immoral actions, and the defining factor is if they realize and understand the morality of their actions and their efforts to redeem themselves with change?

Look – We only have this ONE life. When we select our partners we have an expectation of remaining married for life. If your partner then turns out to be something you don’t like – and that can happen because people do change with time – then your options IMHO are limited to requesting change (as in your partner taking part in the household, not spending all weekends golfing, not going to bars 2-3 times per week, not spending all the cash at the casino, not going on dates with OP....) OR ending the marriage. I’m fine with people wanting to save their marriages and even going to some length in doing that. But if you state your are in reconciliation, and a year from d-day all that WS has done is not screw OP... you aren’t. You are in limbo, and it’s your role to push for change. Be that the change in spouses contribution to reconciliation or your marital status.

If a spouse commits to reconciliation after infidelity, a big part of that process is understanding how wrong their line-of-thought was that "made them" cheat, and to grasp the level of pain caused and what they risked. If they don’t get a sense of remorse and pain from that then they simply aren’t reconciling. In some ways, the end-goal is to sit on your porch at 80 years of age and look at your cheating spouse and think "Thank God we remained married despite his/her affair", and at the same time your spouse is thinking "Thank God he/she didn’t leave me despite the terrible thing I did".

I would HATE to be sitting in my rocker at age 80 wondering why I remained with this person whom I don’t respect, don’t trust and don’t even like. But I had to remain until junior left (3 decades ago...) or I couldn’t afford to lose half my assets (yet had decades to rebuild). I would hate even more if my wife sat there thinking the same thoughts, knowing that she had the power to switch off life-support if I had a medical emergency.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:37 PM, Monday, June 30th]

This would be true if the Cheater possessed similar morals as we do. The lack of morals (or at least not valuing them) IMO are one of the things that allows people to cheat to begin with.

Yes, that is true. There are definitely waywards out there who are truly fucked-up puppies for a whole host of reasons.

It's not true for all, however. Most, it seems, are people who have very common issues that they are unable and/or unwilling to address. They choose infidelity as a means of escape, which usually doesn't work out too well. This is why i believe infidelity self-destructive, not unlike alcoholism, drug addiction, or any other addiction for that matter.

I am so happy to hear that things are
Going well for you in R Chaos. And am grateful for your contributions.

Also I think we can all agree that there is a cost to I, a cost to R, and a cost to D.

"Its just the cost. This is why I adjure every newly betrayed to count that cost before attempting R, but sometimes you just have to find out for yourself (I did)."

Many of us have paid the false R cost.

I don’t believe all waywards are on the far end of the no empathy no cost to them spectrum. I deeply respect the ones in this site who have done the work to become safe partners.

I like the analogy in this thread of keeping the damage I caused me contained. I think that’s worth a new thread of its own.

From my own life I can say that it is very difficult and commendable.

so what's the point

OP,this is a great question. For me, the point to attempting R with my then ww was to see if we could salvage enough of our marriage that it could go beyond, as Bigger posted, just cohabitation/staying for the kids. We never got there though I stayed in it for 10 years or so before it ended. The "dead zone" in my soul was a reality then and to this day, remnants remain.

I have since gone on to remary an amazing woman and we have built the marriage and home Ive always desired. She too is a survivor of a brutal betrayal and we took those hard learned/earned lessons to help us in our new endeavor. Im so glad we did.

Who would you rather be, the BS or the WS?

If your answer is "the BS", then don’t envy the WS, pity them.

Yes, that is true. There are definitely waywards out there who are truly fucked-up puppies for a whole host of reasons.

It's not true for all, however. Most, it seems, are people who have very common issues that they are unable and/or unwilling to address. They choose infidelity as a means of escape, which usually doesn't work out too well. This is why i believe infidelity self-destructive, not unlike alcoholism, drug addiction, or any other addiction for that matter.

I don’t believe you have to be a "truly fucked up puppy" to lack morals or at least not value them enough to have them stop you from cheating.

My wife had many of the same issues that other cheaters have (CSA, avoidant attachment style, daddy/abandonment issues, poor self esteem and a need for external validation, etc.). Her FOO is full of addiction and infidelity. Some of those lives were truly destroyed by addiction. In digging into her "whys" she listed all those things and has also been diagnosed as bipolar and with a Type B personality disorder. Contributing factors? Sure. But when we were compiling her list of contributing factors she said "there’s one more thing. I didn’t have any morals". IMO, that can be the "last line of defense". I had a lot of FOO issues, abuse and addiction issues as well. I was in the same marriage (except mine was worse…..I had an unfaithful partner), yet I never cheated. My morals wouldn’t allow me. I valued them, she didn’t. So whatever she (and I’m speaking only for MY spouse here) considered her "moral compass" in the moment, those didn’t matter enough to stop her and certainly didn’t matter enough to consider them the "cost of cheating".

Are all WS immoral and can’t/wont change?

Do people really think that people are either moral or immoral and are grafted in that form for eternity? Is a spouse that cheats immoral before the affair, or do they become immoral by having an affair. If so – is this a once-in-a-lifetime irreversible change? Or is it more plausible that people can do moral or immoral actions, and the defining factor is if they realize and understand the morality of their actions and their efforts to redeem themselves with change?

I think we can agree infidelity is an immoral act. Are cheaters inherently immoral? Some may be, most likely aren’t. Like I said above, I believe morals are the "last line of defense" and cheater’s are either lacking or devaluing them at the time they decide to cheat. That may pain some, others may not give a shit. Many BS lament "I had many of the same issues, yet didn’t cheat". The "last line of defense" held for them. Does that make the lack of morals in the moment (or months/years) of infidelity irredeemable? Of course not. It’s something the WS has to acknowledge, own and work to improve. Many do and have. Some never do. Some point fingers and blame.

In my particular infidelity situation, my wife had shown a pattern of lacking morals as a child (lying to parents and teachers, stealing things, etc.). She self-identified her lack of morals contributed to her 20 year "infidelity career" and subsequent 18 year cover-up. She worked on that in therapy for a while. She still shows signs of immorality. Is it inherent? IDK, but it’s pretty pervasive. At any rate, she certainly hasn’t "lost" or "compromised" traits she never really possessed. Will she eventually "gain" then? TBD….

Machiavelli1469, youve gotten quite a bit of feedback and input. Im curious as to what your thoughts are now?

In limbo myself, quiet quitting my marriage of 25 years after trying for ten years to reconcile when I’m dead inside and he lacks emotional intelligence. So here is my perspective….

We are all dying. Some of us more quickly than others. None of this matters at all.

Live what you have left in a way where you won’t hate yourself on your deathbed. Fuck everything and everyone else.

There will never be justice. It will never be fair.

Squeeze out of life what you can, without guilt or shame. With or without your WS. At this point, they should just be an audience member; the stage is yours. Do what is right by yourself first, then for the people who aren’t fuckers second. The rest can suck it.

Fuck justice. It doesn’t exist.

The stage is yours.

If you consider changing your the nature and purity of your marriage forever, shame, loss of respect by others and yourself, and causing trauma to your spouse and children "winning" than that’s a prize I’d never want to win.

I understand the feeling. I still fight the same feelings sometimes. I try to remember that nothing I do will get me even.

Revenge affair? I’m only stopping to her level. Divorce doesn’t change the fact that I still got cheated on by someone I did a TON for. It’s one of the many bad parts about this: there are no ideal choices. Your WS took "ideal" off the table.

In my story, my WW has taken responsibility and has worked to make amends. This path has not been perfect and we still have a long way to go, but there’s a chance it will work out.

One way I could short circuit that chance is to turn this into a competition. That would make R just about impossible.

Another way of looking at it: I already won. I didn’t cheat and I have my dignity and self respect. That’s probably a better place to be than a WS.