SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Dear all,

It bothers me when I see posts and stories in which the woman (in an affair) is the “victim” is “broken” is “taken advantage of.”

And I see stories of wayward men who got involved with the OW because she is in need of rescue. Or men who cheat because they are powerful and entitled.

Am I alone in seeing these trends? Is this really the way the world is? This is certainly the world Hollywood has portrayed.

Maybe I would prefer to be arrogant than damaged? Selfish rather than victimized?

I think for me it boils down to not wanting to ever be seen as weak or vulnerable, even though those are acceptable “female” characteristics in our patriarchal society.

My A was pretty much the opposite, at least on the face of it. I was the one with the KISA complex, trying to mend OM's broken heart because he was pining after a girl who wasn't interested. He seemed to rather studiously avoid getting involved with anyone, so I think it made me feel powerful to reel him in and be his savior.

Of course, I later discovered he told me some significant lies, so I suspect his helplessness was deliberately designed to lure me in like a Venus fly trap. That doesn't negate the intentionality of my pursuit.

I can speak only from my own experience. And that is, the AP's I was with were not broken or taken advantage of or in need of rescue, or, for that matter, weak or vulnerable.

And I am neither powerful nor entitled.

They were very different women and in it, I believe, for different reasons, but the common thread was a desire for something new and different and to feel wanted and appreciated. And my motives were the same. We wanted to do it, we were able to do it, so we did it.

Just my .02. I'm sure there are myriad other experiences and motives.

I think sometimes we seek out, or recall, stories that match our bias.

Reading on SI I find a myriad of stories of who WS/BS/AP are.

Media however does tend to paint a different picture, with TV and movies being so far off base most of the time.

My A was basically me sliping into the A by confiding in another woman and she saw her opening and facilitated it all. Yes, I was there whole hog too, but she was the instigator from friendship to sex.

In my case I would say my AP took advantage of me (as much or more as I was taking advantage of her). Her motivation was to break up my M and enjoy some of the good life through me. She did what she thought she needed to make that happen.

I lied too. But I can hardly say that I took advantage of her.

I tend to find the bunny boiler type stories stick in my head, as that was my experience.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 8:36 AM, December 7th (Monday)]

It bothers me when I see posts and stories in which the woman (in an affair) is the “victim” is “broken” is “taken advantage of.”

Thank you for your whole post and your willingness to speak out.

It's a real problem, as is the excuse-making on behalf of WH's.

I also think what you have identified above is actually anti-woman and insulting to faithful wives.

In my own personal situation, my WW tried a version of this gambit. Once I started seeing it for what it was, I found it deeply offensive and ridiculous.

So I'm probably a bit more sensitive to it than others, but I think it happens all the time and far too many are willing to supply it as an easy narrative.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:50 AM, December 7th (Monday)]

It bothers me when I see posts and stories in which the woman (in an affair) is the “victim” is “broken” is “taken advantage of.”

I don't like the characterization either, but one of those doesn't belong. I think anyone who has an A or betrays their partner is "broken." I don't think that's excusing or downplaying what they did at all like maybe saying they were a victim is. It's pretty matter of fact. There was a lot wrong with me and my internal thought processes and feelings that contributed to me choosing to betray my BH. That's broken. Or pick another word that suits you.

What I don't like is when that word is used to absolve the WS from responsibility. I think the only way to become healthy and a safe partner is by finding out what those things are through IC, acknowledging those parts of you as who you are, and then working on them and fixing them to become a better and healthier person.

I think anyone who has an A or betrays their partner is "broken."

As long as you're using broken as a direct synonym for "asshole", I'm right there with you. If "broken" implies some psychological problem, abuse, childhood issue, or really anything other than "this person is an asshole", well, I do not agree.

So I'm probably a bit more sensitive to it than others, but I think it happens all the time and far too many are willing to supply it as an easy narrative.

So do I. It's often disguised as "ego kibbles" or "something she needed she wasn't getting". But, it's incredibly common and it's deeply insulting to both sexes. Again, I believe in calling it what it is, poor self control/lack of morals/stupidity.. There are a lot of relevant explanations I can use, none of which is "broken".

I don't think that's excusing or downplaying what they did at all like maybe saying they were a victim is. It's pretty matter of fact. There was a lot wrong with me and my internal thought processes and feelings that contributed to me choosing to betray my BH. That's broken. Or pick another word that suits you.

I'd choose just about any other than "broken". What broke my W? Well, as we say in IT, "problem is between screen and back of chair". She had a good childhood, loving parents, great job, great life and, in my eyes, good husband. "Broken" doesn't happen in a vacuum, and when I hear it, I think "My H broke me, so I had an A", which, in fact, is what I read in a lot of stories (not so much here, but other places).

Yes, there was something wrong with you, you acted on your animal instincts without regard for what it would do to other people. When other people do that, we label them, most typically as assholes, but sometimes, depending on the offense, psychopaths, sociopaths, anti-social personality or lots of other labels. None of them imply any sort of external "breaking", where, of course, "broken" does.

Am I alone in seeing these trends? Is this really the way the world is?

No, you are not alone, and no, those explanations are purely for the benefit of society collectively putting complex, messy ordeals in neat little boxes so as not to upset our preconceived notions and gender biases which are both a product of nature and nurture.

These constructs are based on the transactional model of relationships, which make it more palatable for the average person to understand/forgive. This idea that women are victimized is because it implies deception. The deception is the man feeds the woman disingenuous line(s) to get into her pants. As a generalization, women tend to report being more bothered by emotional displacement. So if the man never had an emotional connection--it was all just hollow words given in pursuit of some "ass"--then the primary was still number 1 from an emotionally perspective.

This is reverse for men as men tend to report being more bothered by physical acts of infidelity. Men tend to bond over physical activities, i.e. sex. So if the women is seen as only having sex in order to get more emotional satisfaction, then her role, in the act of sex itself, is seen as less voluntary. She wasn't having sex because she had the hots for him, she was only doing it in order to get more of those sweet nothings that she was addicted to. Because, you know, that fits into the gender stereotype of women being beholden to their emotions. This makes it more palatable for the man because, as the primary, he was never truly displaced. She was only fucking the AP because she loved the lies he told her (circle is now complete). It was not due to the fact that she actually because she just enjoyed it.

So these generalizations are still alive in well because its easier for us to collectively digest. We impute motives to fit our gender biases for our own benefits. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

I do believe a few of the OW (plural) in my case were broken people in some way. Victims or taken advantage of? Absolutely not. They knew what they were doing and pursued it as well. Was my WH trying to rescue them? Absolutely not. His motives were completely selfish, all about the ego boosts and attention he was getting.

The biggest stereotype I have seen is the whole dead bedroom thing. Not having the needs met at home and so people cheat. If the wife or husband were doing more, it would all be a non-issue. We of course know that's not true at all.

I can speak only from my own experience. And that is, the AP's I was with were not broken or taken advantage of or in need of rescue, or, for that matter, weak or vulnerable.

We will have to agree to disagree. Anybody who knowingly hooks up with a married person and gives no fucks has issues. If you don't want to call it broken, NP, but it's definitely something and it ain't good.

Is this really the way the world is? This is certainly the world Hollywood has portrayed

Please keep in mind that the actors in movies are being paid to act on screen.

The actors may or may not be WSs or BSs in real life but when working they are pretending to be a character in a show or a movie.

As long as you're using broken as a direct synonym for "asshole", I'm right there with you.

Well, I'd say the "asshole" part is more of an in addition to, rather than a replacement. I was called worse and was worse than just that. I kind of disagree with what you're saying though because being an "asshole" doesn't really help anything. It doesn't leave much to explore. Assholes just are. So there's no room to grow. I guess you can say "Don't be an asshole," but people are more complex than that.

Yes, there was something wrong with you, you acted on your animal instincts without regard for what it would do to other people.

None of them imply any sort of external "breaking", where, of course, "broken" does.

Yes and no.

It wasn't solely animal instincts and that wasn't the driver of my actions. It may have been my actions but that wasn't what was behind them. While I am sure there are many WS's that were just like you said, there are many who aren't. And broken doesn't necessarily mean external. For many WS, the brokenness is internal.

I guess all I'm saying is that there's a lot that goes into why a WS becomes a WS and simply saying he or she was an asshole doesn't really add much.

And besides, it's off point from the OP. All I was saying is that broken is not the same as victimhood and being taken advantage of.

I think sometimes we seek out, or recall, stories that match our bias.

Yes isn’t that the truth. I read all these posts and so many different perspectives. Appreciate that. Opening ourselves up to different ways of thinking is important.

As long as you're using broken as a direct synonym for "asshole", I'm right there with you

.

Well, I do like that “asshole” is a fairly gender-neutral term.

I’m ok with embracing that term, although I am glad they named this the Wayward Forum not the butthole forum.

Rideitout,

Please familiarize yourself with the Wayward forum description:

Being disrespectful to this forum, members, or this description will result in your losing access without warning.

This means not calling the people here assholes.

Mrs Walloped and Mrs Panda

For what its worth I think some of you former waywards are the bravest contributors to this site.

Unfortunately, this site seems to have two groups of people: Those that believe people can change and those that don’t. It’s self-explanatory why it’s pointless to argue with the later.

Hey Bigger

For what it’s worth, I personally don’t believe people change a whole lot. I changed the Wayward part of me. That was tough to face and shameful, no doubt. But it wasn’t the dominant part of me.

There is a saying I got from a partner at work. “The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.” I largely believe that is true. Most people never have incentive or desire to change.

This horrible man I used to work with was recently involved in another A in his workplace. Was forced out of his own practice I say horrible not because of his A but because he also harassed young women sexually, was rude, mean, and was racist. I don’t think that guy will ever change. If he did., I will eat my hat.

I wish I knew what percentage of us Waywards really do change.

it has been said you put lipstick on a ......... and you still

have a ..........

it is D day the WS says i was a victim, implying i was not

that bad do not divorce me.

it is D day the BS the AP was a predator, implying that their

WS was not that bad.

whatever they are the WS, BS, male, female the affair left a

manure sandwich on the plate. All these WS and BS are doing

is putting mayonnaise, mustard, relish, slice tomato, onion,

lettuce, whatever to help get that sandwich down so they

can avoid divorce.

no different then when people are called out in public life for

putting a spin on things. they are trying to do damage

control, saving face. making bad things palatable.

when a person falls and is embarrassed what is to be gained

by calling them out when the are trying to ease their

embarrassment.

there is no profit in making one self big by making others

small.

I think for me it boils down to not wanting to ever be seen as weak or vulnerable, even though those are acceptable “female” characteristics in our patriarchal society.

I get that people never want to be portrayed as weak, or vulnerable, especially in the context of being open to an affair. But maybe some of the stereotypes have some semblance in truth. I have seen story after story here that mimic what we went through when she had her affair. Getting older, empty nest, no real employment opportunities. Me with a great job. Her looking ahead and not seeing how good things were or how they were going to be even better.

A younger guy comes along and they see the last ring of their youth to grab. In my case it was the electrician with the tool belt, but it could have been the yoga instructor, personal trainer, or kids softball coach. Selfish yes, but also vulnerable.

I don’t think she was ever an Asshole in the classic sense. Still treated me ok, but it was short lived so who knows. Also not sure about broken either. She was a great and faithful wife a week before the affair. She didn’t seem broken. She actually didn’t seem broken during either. After definitely. Along with me and the marriage in fact she is still broken. At this point I think beyond repair. It seems strange that On DDay a great 25 year marriage was now broken, but it was. A month before happy, a month later her life in ruins. Mine too, at least for a while. Crazy.

As for men, i think some of those stereotypes are true also. Guy is successful in business and just gets entitled. Not vulnerable at all. Just doesn’t give a shit about how their actions affect anyone but themselves.

Again, the one thing I have learned here is there are no absolutes. You can find examples of the above with the genders switched. But I do think that some of the preconceived notions are correct.

I will say the Hollywood issue for me is in 99% of the cases they do portray the male BS as deserving of the wife cheating. Kills me

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 8:25 PM, December 7th (Monday)]

I wish I knew what percentage of us Waywards really do change.

So do I. I know several guys who "tow the line" now, but, have they really changed? In one instance, I know they have not, they've gotten sneakier and more discreet. But the allure is still there, and the action is still there, just absent the stunning level of impropriety.

She didn’t seem broken. She actually didn’t seem broken during either. After definitely.

Basically exactly my story. Seemed fine a week before the OM dropped some great lines (hey, game recognize game, they were world class lines, gotta give him that). Seemed fine during the A. Broken like crazy when the aftermath hit. But "broken" during the A? Well, I got the pleasure of reading basically every exchange they had for the few months of the A, if that's "broken" well, sign me up for some of that!

As for men, i think some of those stereotypes are true also. Guy is successful in business and just gets entitled. Not vulnerable at all. Just doesn’t give a shit about how their actions affect anyone but themselves.

It's the only kind of male cheat I know IRL, and I know quite a few. Which is why I struggle so much when I read these deeply conflicted/ego kibble/down in the dumps explanations of affairs, they don't mirror my experience at all. What I know is a whole lot of entitled men and one "broken" woman (my wife). But I'm sure the WH's in my life, when caught, sell a very, very different tune, probably with a lot of similarity to what my W sold me, lost, unsure, trying to recapture youth, thought you didn't love me, dead bedroom.. Anything but what they'd tell me, which is basically, summed up, I do it because I like it and I can. Same reason they would order a 5000 dollar bottle of wine for dinner, because they can and because they like it. It's entitlement and lack of concern about how their actions impact others that drives the cheats I know. Except my wife. And I really question that, because, well, she has a LOT more motivation to lie than the men in my life.

I wish I knew what percentage of us Waywards really do change.

I'm curious to know too, but, for you personally, it really doesn't matter. I had an issue when I was a young man where the VAST majority of people are unable to recover. Statistics told me I was likely to, because of my past actions, lead a horrible and short life. IIRC, I had about a 10% chance of beating it. I did; I changed and became one of the few who succeeded. It's not hopeless no matter how bad the stats (well, unless it's 0%, but I know that's not the case). Is it hard and/or unlikely? I think it probably is. But it's not impossible if you want it, and that is a very important thing, at least for me, in determining my actions and path forward.

This means not calling the people here assholes.

Apologies. Although, risking losing my access here, but I'll point the finger at myself and say I've been an asshole many times myself. And it had nothing to do, for me personally, with being broken, it had to do with being human and having poor self control and/or little/no respect for another person's feelings or boundaries. I give myself that label because what I did has no deeper explanation, I was a bully, entitled, lacked empathy.. A whole host of things, all of which I could point at some greater cause. But I'd be looking for something deeper when the real answer was just "me".

Hopefully this injects some levity, but in Liar, Liar, there's a scene where a client calls Jim Carey for advice. Jim, being unable to lie anymore, when his client asks him what to do, responds with "stop breaking the law, asshole". No arguing with that one.

I don't know that I see the media portray infidelity all that accurately anyways, as far as stereotypes are concerned.

Personally, yes, I think women are more prone to being influenced by circumstance, time of life, etc. than men in general. That's just the way I see it. Men are more set in their ways. It's harder for a faithful man to become a cheat, or for a cad to reform. Whereas with women, there have been several instances reported on various forums where some "bad influence" woman befriends a group of other women, and all of a sudden several of the women wind up having affairs. Many women take their cues from other women. It was an issue with my ex.

I doubt that my ex will cheat on the man she left me for. Doesn't have the incentives now. Really no reason to either from her standpoint. That one knows the value of everything, however drunk she was on affair chemicals.

From my standpoint, I note what inside of me didn't change and is likely unchangeable. There's a lot of it, I suppose it is interesting in a way. I can kind of accept myself better now. I used to fight things more, and I don't think that works. If certain things don't change after a life trauma, then I think that's worth noting.

I do have to say that the "broken" business really needs to be excised from this site. Learn and move on.