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Hi all, I just wonder how many people are in a similar position. So tonight a song came on the radio whilst we were at the hotel we have been staying in. This being madonna, instantly the BS is triggered.

I reacted how I felt I should, stroke on the arm an apology for the hurt I've caused and a genuine want to try and just have her comforted by my presence.

My bs however, hurt as she was then mentioned how she is in two minds about madonna, the main being whether she should just own it and not let it bother her which I agreed she should do.

This then led down a rabbit hole, my BS strongly believes that I knew about the APs love of madonna (I didnt) we weren't friends on social media and never had been but I had snooped on it from time to time especially in the early days (the whole sorry saga lasted only three months). Apparently her name on one platform was XXX Madonna XXX however I genuinely do not believe this to be the case nor do I recall this in anyway shape or form. I have tried to explain to my BS that I never went on her social media to fact find, I was getting all I needed from the AP i was being told the likes and dislikes etc and being told everything I needed to know so therefore had no need to go snooping elsewhere.

I tried to explain that this was how I felt but I keep being shot down, couldn't get a word in and frankly it's just infuriating as my BS again chooses to believe what she believes rather than actually trying to understand.

Her logic is "you were in love with this person, you of course wanted to know EVERYTHING about her so of course you would have snooped on her social media" ....my logic is though the total opposite, I was in a fantasy bubble, i didn't feel the need to snoop as she was telling me everything i needed and her SM was just being used so i could look at her photos like a love sick puppy (vomit). Furthermore being in my little fantasy bubble I was simply just wanting to believe what she told me, nothing more, nothing less.

I therefore maintain I had no knowledge about her and her musical love for madonna....other rock bands (that's my bag) she latched onto that to make herself look better I do know bout.

So my question is sort of two fold, A - how do you handle these sort of triggers, ones which see your BS push you away hard and shut you down and B - what is everyone's stance on their knowledge of the ap? I could tell you a lot of crap about her but some stuff my BS knows....not a clue!!

This was also 18 months ago to just make it clear.

Thanks - just wanted to get this out and apologies if it makes no sense

I think instead of arguing this is what I would have done (and keep in mind I have simply been at this much longer than you)

"I am sorry that my behaviors have given you reason not to believe what I say. I understand how easy it would be to fill in your own blanks because it’s going to take a long time for you to fully trust me again. I am and will continue doing everything I can to be transparent with you. I am sorry I have given you a reason to trigger and hurt over Madonna. When we are together, and she comes on the radio, what can I do to help? I am happy to change the station and check in with you because how you feel is very important to me"

Because the thing is it doesn’t really matter whether it’s true or not. You have her room to believe this of your character. That you would do something and lie about it. The only thing that will repair this is transparency and time. You just have to take accountability for the pain that you caused her because without it you wouldn’t be having the conversation about Madonna in the first place. Just let the rest go and be okay that she might not believe you sometimes. It’s the consequences of your actions, and 18 months feels like a long time but it may take her several more years to be fully healed.

Hi

Thanks for your response and believe me I am not trying to argue any point with her.

Unfortunately it's not that simple, as I say an apology is granted and genuinely like you say I can accept that. I dont for a second expect her to believe me, nor do I for a second expect her to have recovered from this absolute hell I bought to her world.

Unfortunately my BS as she doesnt believe me then keeps asking the same question repeatedly and then saying stuff such as "it would be implausible for you to not have known" or "its going to ruin our evening if you dont admit to it" or words to that effect.

So to simply, almost ignore her natural distress wouldnt work which then leaves me to merely being only able to try and explain to her my stance.....if that makes sense!

I am in the exact same situation. This is the kind of thing that comes up over and over again. And my BH takes "I know you can't believe me" to be very condescending, which I can definitely understand. It is to the point where I almost want to lie and say, "Yes, I remember that" or "You're right" even to things that are not true because it is impossible for him to believe what is true because of my actions. I know this is not the right thing to do, though, when I am working on honesty and integrity, but it seems so awful to risk losing everything over my pride over something minor.

[This message edited by PleaseBeFixable at 10:00 PM, Monday, February 12th]

Here's the deal: Unless the AP was also in the BS's life, all we know about them is what we can mine out on social media, and what the WS tells us. And a lot of us become amateur detectives trying to figure out what made the AP so appealing that the WS would risk everything for them. We probably have a lot of useless information than the WS ever knew about. "She has fibromyalgia and likes tuna casserole and Toby Keith. How could you not know that?"

Tell the truth, no matter what. THAT IS YOUR JOURNEY. That's your JOB. Do NOT placate your BS.

Unfortunately my BS as she doesnt believe me then keeps asking the same question repeatedly and then saying stuff such as "it would be implausible for you to not have known" or "its going to ruin our evening if you dont admit to it" or words to that effect.

I asked the same questions over and over. I knew the information, I just wanted to hear it again and again and again. It was like sticking my tongue in the hole where a tooth had just been pulled. Or picking at a scab. Some people ask because they want to see if they get the same answer consistently. For me, the more my H told me that he didn't know things about the AP that I thought he'd know, the better I felt about him not caring enough to know those things. Maybe that'll happen in your case, too.

Your best bet: "I'm not going to lie to you and admit to something that's not true to placate you in the moment. I'm committed to being transparent and honest, even if you don't believe me. Ask me anything you want to know and I will tell you, but I did not know that and I'm not going to say that I did."

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 11:32 PM, Monday, February 12th]

Agree ^^^^^

Always enforce you care how she feels. Ask what you can do to help now and in these future events
Apologize for what you are accountable for
And yes she may ask you time and time again yet but the consistency of your answers either will or will not sink in, that part you are not in control of.
Understand trauma causes damage and the survival part of their brain may have some of these things in loop. This will be the case for a long time until she feels safer and wants to alleviate her own ruminations.

I definitely would always try to be curious and get to the heart of her concern, but never admit to stuff that didn’t happen.

Thank you all,

It is really difficult as some of this stuff to me is a insignificant but at the same time I know to her it is not.

If it were just simply a case of her asking about madonna and me saying nah I never knew I know in there somewhere she would have accepted that however I did trickle truth the life out of all this. I therefore know that she struggles to believe anything I say if she has a feeling it maybe true.

Yesterday was a shit show, we were in a public bar in the hotel, quite a few people around and it was obvious to anyone that our body language and voices were not of a couple having a great trip away to Poland. When it got that uncomfortable I said to her that I wasnt going to stay and that I was heading to the room. I simply just wanted to get some privacy, I ended up staying anyway but the arguing continued and it was clear there was horrific tension. Is it ever right in these circumstances to just walk away?

[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 7:34 AM, Tuesday, February 13th]

Have you read much about trauma? I am reading a book at the minute which explains how a person who has suffered a traumatic event needs to ask a question or make a statement to help them process it. The book gives examples - not anything to do with infidelity - but totally relatable. With a non infidelity trauma - say a car crash - the victim may say ‘that car over there is just like the one that hit me’. They then may move onto another topic. They don’t linger on the issue. Just a small fragment being processed. Lingering on the subject can cause the person to freeze or attack. Later they may hear an ambulance or a loud bang and jump. The difference is that moment then passes. So they may shout out but then the thinking part of the brain processes ‘that was an ambulance you are not in danger, you are healed’. With the trauma YOU caused your wife it doesn’t pass. She is looking at the person who stabbed her in the back while telling her you love her. Your reaction to her will continue the trauma. You are not a passing car or sound. You respond and the trauma is continuing. Imagine being her - it sucks big time. She doesn’t want to be in this situation. She would love to ignore Madonna (unless she is a fan).

The trauma victim above may not want to travel down the road they crashed on and most people would understand them avoiding that road indefinitely. But she can’t avoid you and reconcile. The more I have read the more I understand why it’s so hard to reconcile with someone who has caused you damage.

Personally I would not date/involve myself with anyone without looking through their social media. I enjoy research and have a job where critical thought and analysis is important. My digging on SM post discovery has led to me thinking this AP was probably a scam artist. That doesn’t mean I’m okay with the situation. My life has still been blown up. My husbands defensiveness pisses me off. I call him out every time. When I stop calling him out it will be because I am getting ready to walk.

There’s something that jumped out at me from your post. As a BS id have had a million questions on this.

So a few questions for you to think about - why were you bothered about what people in the restaurant thought? So what - will you ever see them again? Why does it matter? Why is portraying you are a happy couple to complete strangers you will never see again important. Why did this make so so uncomfortable that you thought about leaving your distressed wife and going back to your room for privacy?

Contrast that to your friends, family and loved ones finding out you were/are a cheat? Why did that not bother you? Surely if you are bothered about what people think about you - what loved ones think trumps what passing strangers think.

I don’t care what millions of people think about me. They are irrelevant but I would hate to think my friends or kids see me as a cheat. So I don’t cheat. I would have a heated discussion around strangers I’ll never see again. Because I don’t care what they think and many of them won’t notice as they are tapping away on their phones

Your wife is repeating the question because she feels she has to. It’s totally normal. You need to explore why you are finding it hard to deal with. Maybe do some reading on trauma. She doesn’t believe you because maybe she, like me, would look at someone’s SM prior to trusting them. She doesn’t believe you because you are a proven liar. You need to accept that. But asking the question and then accepting your response is very unrealistic. She used to do that and you took advantage of her.

So keep telling the truth.

My husband says I believe what I want to believe. Well don’t we all. He believed a pretty lady (who wouldn’t video call) from another continent was his soul mate not a basement scammer . You believed your affair partner was worth damaging your marriage and integrity for. Her questioning suggests she believes you aren’t daft enough not to check someone’s SM profile to make sure they aren’t a lunatic or liar. She’s giving your credit and expecting you to have done your homework on this woman and that credit probably isn’t deserved.

[This message edited by Abcd89 at 8:43 AM, Tuesday, February 13th]

I’m not trying to be harsh TinyTim. I’m just trying to give you a different perspective. I see you are trying to improve your relationship. Does your wife journal? Maybe encourage her to journal each day and burn the paper. I found it helped process. Never read what she writes unless she asks you too.

Maybe one other angle that might add to the conversation and if not please feel free to ignore. If a BS asks a question and gets no real answer, it might be because there is no answer or because we’re being lied to by omission, and we are left wondering. On the other hand, in a perverse way, when we do get big, ugly answers to our questions, it feels like playing Battleship and we finally got a hit. And the worse the answer the more sure it’s true (because who would make that shit up?). So there is a comfort in hearing horrible things and a gnawing doubt when all is clear.

Yesterday was a shit show, we were in a public bar in the hotel, quite a few people around and it was obvious to anyone that our body language and voices were not of a couple having a great trip away to Poland. When it got that uncomfortable I said to her that I wasnt going to stay and that I was heading to the room. I simply just wanted to get some privacy, I ended up staying anyway but the arguing continued and it was clear there was horrific tension. Is it ever right in these circumstances to just walk away?

Only if you invite her to come with you. Don't walk away from the pain that you caused. That won't lead anywhere good.

We had a couple of experiences like that. It didn't matter that friends were waiting, or that we were on our way to a concert that we both wanted to see. The trauma bubbled up and that was ALL that was happening for me. I could not see past it. The first time, my H cancelled our plans when we were a block away from our friend's house and consoled me. The second time he essentially said "I'm not doing this with you right now" and had fun singing along with his friends... while I plotted his demise. I fully own that I was on a tear and being completely irrational, but that's what happens with trauma.

You mindfucked her. YOU. That's TOUGH to reconcile, like others so eloquently said above. If you don't stick around for the painful, dramatic parts of recovery, you're hurting her and you're setting recovery back.

Always stay in your truth. Always stay in your integrity. Be patient and kind. Do not waver.

IDK ... are you in IC? Is your W? Are you in MC? I suspect that a good MC can help you 2 navigate this.

IMO, you have to accept that she won't believe you on some things. So does she. I suspect the way out is to go to feelings. What does your W feel when she doesn't believe you - anger, fear, shame, grief? What do you feel?

I think you both probably can benefit by building new patterns of responding to those and similar episodes.

I also think that you need to tell truth as you experience it. If it's incompatible with your W's experience, maybe R is not a good choice for you or her or both of you.

No stop sign, posting as BS.

There is nothing you can do. Your BW can’t and shouldn’t trust your version of reality anymore. During your affair you lied, deceived and gaslit her right? All she can believe is what SHE knows because the rest has been shattered, and the only thing she can trust is herself.

I absolutely agree that you shouldn’t admit to anything that isn’t true to placate her, but you have to accept that she will likely believe her own truth over yours for a long time, and nothing will ever get that back fully.

You've received good advice TinyTim, I don't have much to add. DO NOT LIE to placate your spouse. The absolute worst thing you can do if you want to R is any continued lying. Your wife needs to know that you are going to be honest with her - even if it makes her unhappy and ruins the night. Honesty, consistency, patience, and empathy - over and over and over again.

Unfortunately my BS as she doesnt believe me then keeps asking the same question repeatedly and then saying stuff such as "it would be implausible for you to not have known" or "its going to ruin our evening if you don't admit to it" or words to that effect.

I did this a lot too. I'd obsess over the seemingly innocuous details that didn't make sense to me in the story and there were a lot of them because I was trying to wrap my brain around a story that didn't make sense and I just didn't trust my husband to tell me the truth any more. There were questions I must have asked hundreds or even thousands of times. It was crazy making because part of me didn't trust MYSELF any more either (after all, I'd ignored signs and didn't even know about the the A). I would try to put myself in my husband's shoes and I knew that if I were in that situation, I assume I would have done X, Y, and Z and so I can't imagine NOT doing X, Y, and Z in that situation.... and therefore he MUST be lying. BUT....the thing is, actually putting yourself in the Wayward mindset is hard - near impossible - for a BS because I would never actually have been in a situation where I'd find myself doing X, Y, and Z because I can't imagine having an A in the first place. I was trying to use BS logic to understand the WS narrative, but it didn't work because affairs are inherently illogical.

Tiny Tim, if 18 months ago was your D Day, it is still raw and fresh to a BS. There is no set timeline of when the questions will stop. Everyone has their own journey to ride out You say you want to walk away to get out of earshot from the inquisition? You caused this. You literally walked away when you had your A. Don’t walk away a second time because of having to answer questions…this is a process for your BS as well as you. Trust the process if you want to save your marriage.

Hi all,

Thank you for your responses as always they mean alot and sometimes I sit back and realise how daft i can sound at times....

I do feel as though I'm in some sort of weird tail spin at times. Mrs BS could sit there and everyday call me up to talk and to ask a question and I can calmly and coherently talk to her for hours about the affair and all that comes with it. I however struggle though when she becomes angry, it's not healthy and I have read everything about how to be empathetic and the like but for some reason the moment she gets angry and explosive I match it and/or become worse. It's sad as she ACTUALLY has a reason....I dont.

Like a child throwing a tantrum in a shop I can be such a dick, it's not all the time however, but it's more than enough and it really is worrying me.

I cant see a way out of the cycle as I will sit and reflect and things shall be fine but then out of nowhere I snap if she accuses me of saying something wrong (defensiveness or just plain stupid stuff ie.microwave analogy) this affair has revealed a really nasty side of me which I never knew existed and it's just not helpful but yet then I know if she asked me something awkward or uncomfortable I could spend days,months years talking about it calmly and patiently.... anyway I'm rambling so I apologise and am now off to enjoy the evening with the family that I am so grateful for and for a wife who is as patient as a saint. Have a nice evening all, I do have a thread i was going to start on shame and what not but it's hard to explain so all your help would be appreciated when thst time comes. Thank you all again...especially if you are still reading this

One of the best ways I have heard trauma described is having a $1000 reaction to a $50 problem. It sounds like you are having a $1000 reaction to your wife’s rightful anger. It might be something to explore in therapy and/or EMDR, because it is critically important to tame that. Best wishes to you and your family.

She needs to feel safe expressing her authentic feelings with you, and you need to feel safe receiving them. I agree with IH that it sounds like some counseling is in order. Have you done IC or MC yet?

So ive done a few bouts of IC however it never covered the anger or frustrations. It dug more into my people pleasing ways and my need to feel validated and liked by everyone so more my reasons for why I did all this in the first place.

This anger/frustration is much newer mind, pre A I wouldn't get angry or frustrated at all. In fact I was too horizontal and I never got bothered about anything and that included some really awful stuff which my ex did to me after we split.

I know now that most my adult life ive been running on a different operating system, I was not this "he's got his shit together, nothing bothers him and he's so amazing" that my BS saw me as. Now what she sees is the raw version where it's more like "jeez he actually does have feelings, he is more sensitive than me and more fucked up". So it leaves me questioning is this angry frustrated mess just who I am or is it a by product of what's happening right now.

I get ic free from work, I will likely approach them once again and see what can be offered although it's only offered once a year so may have hit my quota...

MC no, she's not interested in that as she doesnt believe it will help in anyway as they arent going to convince her im not lying.

I could easily see what you are describing happening with my wife. She has suppressed her emotions for her whole life. Now that she is actually trying to let them out to be vulnerable, she is unpracticed and bad at controlling them and expressing them in an "appropriate" way. I’d say IC, practice expressing your emotions, but don’t indulge in flaming anger at your BW, that’s a no no.