SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We live in a small town and AP an WH still work in the same company (different floors and units they have zero interaction and he has been NC since DD, avoids social gatherings where she might be etc) but we have never run into her before. He is looking for something else and has since day 1, he has applied for jobs every week for 15 months but hasn't had any luck due to his field being super small and his competence being very specific and our town being small in the middle of nowhere. He jas also applied for jobs in the locations that would require us moving our entire family but even there, no luck. However, we have managed to never run into AP or see her a single time for 15 months which in our town is more or less a miracle. I suppose he might have seen her from afar at work once or twice but no eye contact or same room etc. We have discussed what I need if and when it happens. I have said that I need him to immediately show me support and hold my back with his hand, hold my hand or put his arm around me, turn our backs towards her and be mindful to support me.

Yesterday we went to a restaurant in a food court type place and we were not being vigilant, the thought hadn't even crossed our minds I guess that she might be there, and so we had already ordered and started to sit down by the time I noticed she was there, quite close to us. Her back was to us and we sat in a cubicle so we did not have direct view of her and I don't even know if she saw us, but it having been a first ever and that I wasn't thinking of the possibility, I panicked. I started sobbing in the cubicle and saying I needed to leave. WH did not handle it well, In fact, he probably panicked? I guess because it was a shit show. He just kept telling me to try and calm down, we have already ordered, we are not in direct view of her and she cannot see us, lets just eat our food quickly and then get out of here. I started crying and he started panicking that people were looking so he started going into a massive shame spiral and kept telling me I was making a scene. I had to call my mother who eventually managed to talk my panic attack down over the phone while he sat across from me on his phone pissed off that I was making a scene. Once we got out he was angry at me for making a scene, telling me I overreacted we hadn't even run into her in any way she was just in the same large space. I felt completely shocked and today I am just in pieces over his utter meltdown/failing to act even remotely empathetic or supportive. he has been 'doing the right things' I'd say perhaps 70% of the time, not as well as I'd liked I guess but the main things have been in place since day 1 but he does have issues with shame and has had them his entire life, he does not do well with panicky situations of any kind and has always been super avoidant. In a way he did act as I would have expected based on 22 years together how he's handled any crisis in the past (not well) but somehow I had hoped that this crisis being due to his actions he would have handled it differently. He did not.

I guess I'm mostly needing to vent but also I'd like some perspective on what might have gone on for him? any ideas? (Other than him being a immature POS which is pretty valid given the circumstances).

Your reaction is valid, you weren’t over reacting. It’s an uncontrollable emotional reaction to your trauma. His lack of empathy and understanding is telling imo. I wouldn’t accept him to continuing to work there. I would want the whole family to move from that town even if it meant he would need to take a lesser job somewhere else. That’s a consequence of his betrayal that he wants to avoid. But if he doesn’t it’s you that has to bear the burden of being triggered knowing they still work together and have the constant anxiety of knowing you will likely keep running into his POS AP in this small town.

First side question:
Who the heck was he on the phone to?

I guess I'm mostly needing to vent but also I'd like some perspective on what might have gone on for him? any ideas? (Other than him being a immature POS which is pretty valid given the circumstances)

I'm so sorry that you saw the AP and that your husband truly failed to support you.

You were not over reacting. You were unprepared and reacted viscerally.

You might be under-reacting now.

You are spending time and energy trying to empathize with his reaction and his lack of support. You're doing the emotional work.

What's he doing?

Has he not since this incident, on his own (with no prompting from you), realized and willingly admitted and apologized for failing you so utterly.

You'd already ordered. Who cares? Go. (That's me advising him, BTW, not you.)

Couldn't he have escorted you out and spent time supporting your emotional needs?

Huge missed opportunity for him to support you and your healing.

And not just a missed opportunity to support, he actively ADDED to your emotional burden by getting mad at you.

Sit with that for a moment.

I'm not sure quite what you mean in the very last part of your post

Other than him being a immature POS which is pretty valid given the circumstances

Are you saying that his reaction was valid, given the circumstances? In which case, I disagree strongly.
Or are you saying you are valid for judging him as an immature POS? In which case, I fully support your interpretation of the situation.

You needed him and he avoided.
You needed him and he chose himself. He chose his own comfort over supporting and comforting you.

He didn't want a "scene." Yet his own lack of action and care for you intensified your reaction and created the atmosphere for the very "scene" he was worried about.

Why was it so very hard for him to not just leave with you?

Can you really trust someone who is still so avoidant? Avoidant to act. Avoidant to own their own lack of empathy and support.

Avoidance and choosing himself (his comfort) over you (your need for comfort). Is he really doing the work? Is he changing?

I would reassess and consider protecting yourself. Consider a 180 to focus on you and your own healing.

Actions speak volumes. What are his actions?

I wouldn’t accept him to continuing to work there. I would want the whole family to move from that town even if it meant he would need to take a lesser job somewhere else.

I am not accepting it and it was one of my absolute non negotiable from DD to which he has agreed. He has applied for loads of jobs, both in our area and other places. No luck like I said, the economy is difficult and his field is such that there aren't too many areas where you can work in that field. he has even applied to many jobs abroad, however if we were to relocate to another country he can not just take on any odd job with a low pay as I would be without a job and relocating a family of five is no cheap endeavour, so again, we're trying to find something even remotely in his field. He will keep trying and has many applications out as we speak.

Who the heck was he on the phone to?

No one, he was just scrolling trying to look busy while I was on the phone with my mum, he was shame panicking over me being on the phone while crying I a public place so I guess he just tried to look like things were semi ok.

Or are you saying you are valid for judging him as an immature POS?

yeah that would be the one

Can you really trust someone who is still so avoidant?

No I guess I can't and this is why I'm so destroyed today. I mean I KNOW him after 22 years, so I've always known he isn't going to react in the bes possible way that I would prefer. But this bad? Nope. Not even I was prepared for this utter collapse.

Has he not since this incident, on his own (with no prompting from you), realized and willingly admitted and apologized for failing you so utterly.

He has not. Also this is compliant with how he has been for 22 years. I am not surprised unfortunately. He feels that because once I started spiralling (which became WAY worse due to his reaction or lack thereof) I started getting super emotional and started berating her an him verbally, saying I can not stay in the same building as that whore on more minute etc. (Nope I am NOT proud of this reaction but I was in an utter panic and he would not support me and just kept telling me to calm down and clean up my foul mouth.) he could not show me any empathy because I was being so vile towards him (and her). This is typical. He usually avoids responsibility with the excuse that he can not be supportive or show empathy to me because I am being so mean and verbally abusive. He can not connect the fact that I never start our being that from the get go. It spirals into that after he refuses to support or act in any way responsible if I trigger or cry etc. At first I said no vile things at all I just simply panicked, said she's here, we have to leave. Started crying and saying I can not even live in my home town any more because of what he has done. this is the point where he starts getting defensive and I go into complete meltdown saying I need to get out of the building I am not staying one more minute near her etc. he also did not want me to call my mother but I just ignored him because I felt so overwhelmed and needed someone to talk me down from that cliff I was on, which she did.

The first 8-10 months after DD he was handling things much better, but it's like he hit 'remorse fatigue' and just gave up on being apologetic and remorseful and turned angry and bitter. I do believe he's also depressed as he is showing signs of that in many ways, he is on anti depressants. Since then things have gone sideways quickly. I do believe he's starting to feel hopeless, like things are never going to get any better and I guess typically for a WS, he was hoping we would be out of the worst part way quicker than we are. But I am not sure how to forgive this incident, it feels like such a huge red flag in our R journey and I feel utterly let down.

Are You both in therapy. I’d recommend it. You for trauma. Him for infidelity.

If you are have you called and talked to your therapists?

Role playing situations for future instances of running into the AP may be helpful.

Your reply/update is clarifying.

I'm so sorry this happened, and now you're digging out emotionally.

I definitely got to the point in R where I realized that it didn't matter if my H wouldn't (an issue of will/action) or couldn't (an issue of fundamental capacity) be the spouse I needed.
What mattered was that he wasn't.

I wasn't worried (at least in an immediate or day-to-day way) about him being unfaithful.

But his affairs had revealed his limitations as a partner in general.

I had to decide if I could live with his limits in empathy, support, EQ, self-centeredness. Could I stay married to someone who was not an equal partner in those ways.

My answer to myself was: No.

That isn't the marriage I wanted.

That "ah-ha" moment for me helped me to detach emotionally.

Could my H do the work and become that partner I needed? Maybe.

I decided to give it some time but also decided that the motivation needed to come from him and not me. If I was pushing and pulling him through the work...then it wasn't really his work and he really wasn't growing any capacity that would be helpful when the chips were down.

I agree with other posters that IC could be helpful for you both. But for him to change, he has to want that growth, see it as possible, and do the work. For the relationship to heal, he has to stay in the trenches with you
emotionally.

Only you can decide what you can live with and what your timeline is.

(((Hugs to you)))

Are You both in therapy. I’d recommend it. You for trauma. Him for infidelity.
If you are have you called and talked to your therapists?

I am in weekly IC, I will talk to her about it in a few days when I next see her. WH was in IC for about 6 months after DD until his IC moved cities . He has been reluctant to find himself a new one but has promised to do so at some point, I'm waiting and watching in regards to that promise. We are in MC and have been for some time now but due to a bunch of circumstances have not been there in 2 months now.

I had to decide if I could live with his limits in empathy, support, EQ, self-centeredness. Could I stay married to someone who was not an equal partner in those ways.

This was the case for me even before the A, as I realised years ago that he has limitations to what he is capable (or willing or sometimes both) to do as a partner. The thing is, some of the things I was willing to put up with pre-A I am no longer willing to put up with. I have said so as well, I need more from him than before the A, I need our M to, in the long run, be a better M than pre-A if I am to R. It was that at first after DD. He truly changed in many of the ways I said I needed him to, but as time has passed and he has become increasingly frustrated with the way we are doing, (the way I am still struggling with PTSD symptoms and spiralling and not being able to move on even a little bit) he has started to slip back into his old avoidant patterns more and more.

After this recent event I’d tell him to either get an IC to work with or a lawyer because you are not going to put up with him being unable to support you through these triggers that his choices caused much longer and you’re going to need to do something about it one way or another.

I am very sorry for what you went through. It’s awful. And what makes it even more awful is that your WH was unable to be supportive of you when you needed him the most. Instead of putting your needs first, he fell into his old habits of being selfish. You would be having a different convo right now if WH said "yeah this sucks. Let’s get you the heck out of here. I don’t care that we spent $$$ on a meal we aren’t going to eat. You are more important" and held your hand and walked out.
Instead, he belittled you, dismissed your feelings, and made you feel terrible about how you were reacting.
This shows he doesn’t get it. Still. How sad.
However, i don’t think this is something you and your relationship cannot recover from. Maybe WH needs to do more work. Maybe he needs to know what YOU really need from him-empathy, support, love, and putting you first in some situations.
In your WH’s defense, i can see how his shame and panic may have caused him to act the way he did. Either way, he did not handle it well. He failed to see your needs and meet them. I hope he gets a revelation and realizes what needs to be done to repair the damage that his affair caused you and your marriage. He needs to know that this is an ongoing process that may never end. I am sorry. I wish you healing.

As a fWS, I want to add to the chorus that says this is totally unacceptable. My A was over 30 years ago, but if we saw the OM in a public space, I wouldn't be able to get out of there fast enough. If the food was paid for, we'd get up and leave that instant. If it was only ordered, I'd put cash on the table if I had it or go to the counter and tell them we had an emergency. I wouldn't even wait for them to run my credit card. I'd hand it to them and tell them I'd come back for it later. Fuck the consequences. I'd a thousand times rather be on the phone with the bank disputing fraud charges than watching my BH implode from the stress of waiting to leave.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

Your breakdown is understandable - and question in my mind is why did he insist on staying in the restaurant?

You both could have said "screw this" and walked out after paying bill or -
You both could have got into your vehicle and then he could have gone back inside and got your stuff in "take home" containers.

Weak mind? No EMPATHY? Maybe even some sadism? I would be extremely uncomfortable should my wife have a similar reaction to something while in a public place. Holy XXXX!

side note: A few years back went to an Applebees and while waiting for our orders - a young woman came in and ended up near us. She was looking at her Iphone and looking at messages - like waiting for something expected. Her stuff came and still she was by herself. The way she was acting was like someone was supposed to meet her there and was yet to show so she was looking to see if a message for why not? ?? She had a pained expression on her face and after 15 or so minutes - laid cash on the table for untouched food and left. I think I saw a tear slided down her face. Very sad scene. She didn't have a wedding ring on.
So? Just a story to validate staying in a public place when you are emotionally coming unglued not your thing to do - the leave.

I think you should have left resturant and gone and sat in car alone until hubby figured out his next act.

So sorry to read of your pain - Something no one deserves...

Sounds very traumatizing. Unfortunately your H was unable or unwilling to own the fact that he caused this.
His action or lack thereof show you a lot. I can understand why you are struggling today.
He is showing you who he is. Believe him.

Be kind to you today.

You have been re traumatised and the your WS as perpetrator of the original trauma also played a role in the re-traumatising by not acting and reacting badly. I’m really sorry. I’m guessing he doesn’t understand the triggered ‘fight’ trauma response and is taking your resultant anger and the things you said very personally and badly in line with his default emotional style and conflict avoidance. I’m actually very shocked he hasn’t yet said anything yet since. Sorry not to be more constructive.

I agree with Tush that you need to be very kind to yourself now. Focus on self. Defocus from him. Basically, a recuperative 180.

The are tons of reasons that you would have got up and bolted out of there with food ordered. A call that a child was hurt. A parent with a heart attack. A burst pipe in the kitchen. Etc., etc.

This should have been one of those moments.

Wow. I am so deeply sorry that you not only had to run into the AP in a public space, a situation created by him to begin with, but then that in your very valid emotional reaction - that he managed to make it about himself yet again. You did not deserve that.

It sounds like he needs a lot of work to be not only a safe person for you but to also become someone that can be emotionally present with you and not make it about himself.

I highly suggest individual therapy for each of you. From my own experience, surviving an affair is extremely challenging. Our WS’s have a lot of growth to do on their end to become safe partners for us, and we in turn have a lot of work to do on our end to learn to be our own advocates and protectors while healing.

I ran into the AP once shortly after dday. It wasn’t pretty. I’m so sorry that you experienced that. ((((Hugs))))

I definitely got to the point in R where I realized that it didn't matter if my H wouldn't (an issue of will/action) or couldn't (an issue of fundamental capacity) be the spouse I needed.

What mattered was that he wasn't.

but his affairs had revealed his limitations as a partner in general

I had to decide if I could live with his limits in empathy, support, EQ, self-centeredness. Could I stay married to someone who was not an equal partner in those ways.

That isn't the marriage I wanted.

That "ah-ha" moment for me helped me to detach emotionally.

^^^ The above are absolute gems

In the end of my M it wasn't the A's (and he had many even including False R) that killed the M. It was who he was, his lack of empathy for me and low EQ. I KNEW when I finally accepted this is who he was that I no longer wanted to be married to him or EVER have a partner that treated me like that again.

I would have walked right out of that mall in that moment and left my H there to figure out a way to get home. What an absolute a** he was to treat you that way. I'm so very sorry and it makes me very angry for you that this happened.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 4:58 PM, Monday, February 26th]

I am really, really sorry you had to go thorough this ordeal. He put you in a situation of sufferance and then when you need his help the most he doesn't show all his support? What a POS! It is not about the affair now but to come to terms he will never be an empathetic partner. He will surely have his other positive merits and you will never find someone who is perfect. It is just a matter of trying to understand what it is you can bear not to have in a man.

IN the aftermath of all this did you talk about it?

In short, my WH acts in much the same way in an emotionally charged situation. It is not about you, or how he feels about you, or his ability to support you in an emotional moment, but about his brokenness, his low emotional IQ and his inability to control his discomfort or embarrassment. Your WH flooded and shut down instead of stepping up to help you out of an awful situation. You both froze a little, and I wish your flight response had kicked in so you could have gotten yourself somewhere safe to freak out. I hope you grow strong enough to walk out on your own and get to a safe space, and I really hope you get to a place where you can breathe through some of the worst of it.

In the words of my friends and IC, my WH does not have the emotional IQ or coping skills to navigate the situations we find ourselves in. He has a lot of deeply hidden issues and a carefully constructed, compartmentalized inner reality that cannot cope when icky real world fallout intrudes. My IC likened his internal world to a house of cards, and his personality to a little bird that is easily broken, despite the tough, in control and in charge persona. These revelations have my head spinning. He is really not at all who I imagined him to be. Not even close. I guess I am still learning who he is and hoping he is capable of meaningful personal growth. I know I have done my share and his so far, but he needs to learn to get comfortable with discomfort. So does yours.

Your WH has so much work to do on himself, his empathy and his emotional IQ to even begin to support you in a stressful situation. Mine still does too. I get how it feels to believe that this is the time for them to step up and be better than before, to try harder, to live up to their own expectations, to try to make amends, and yet to watch over and over how easy it is for them to fall so short of the mark. If ever there were a time for my WH to man up, I needed this to be it, for both our sake. My WH will not do IC or anything to help himself change, but I think that is because he is content with himself right where he is. You might need to find out if yours is content too, or if he hopes to rise to the occasion, for himself and for you.

At the least, this awful episode might get you some discussions about what to do in the future. I continue to call my WH on his inadequate responses and am getting really good at telling him what I need him to do to help me moving forward, within the constraints of his inadequate coping tool box.

I wish you the best finding some breathing room in all this mess. Take care of yourself.

I guess I'm mostly needing to vent but also I'd like some perspective on what might have gone on for him? any ideas? (Other than him being a immature POS which is pretty valid given the circumstances).

If he actually felt ashamed, avoidant, and/or mortified by embarrassment, he would've high-tailed it out of the restaurant as quickly as possible. But he didn't.

Based on that fact, I can think of 3 possible reasons for why he insisted on staying, even as the situation escalated:

(1) He's too stupid to realize leaving would make things easier for both of you.

(2) He wanted to exert control over you by forcing you to remain in an uncomfortable situation against your wishes.

(3) Both.

Thank you all for your comments and support, it means the world to me.

IN the aftermath of all this did you talk about it?

Yes and no. I asked him the day after (him coming to me about it was and is never going to happen, I know this after 22 years with my H, this is something he is not capable of doing after any conflict, ever, however he will on a good day agree to talk if I bring things up without going into complete shame collapse) if he understood that the way he handled (or didn't handle) the situation was completely unacceptable? he said that yes he did and that he wanted to explain his reasons.
However, at this point I was still too hurt and let down and I felt I was not in a headspace to listen to his excuses or blaming my behaviour during or before the incident for his failure to support me. I also, due to experience knew that that was what he would be saying in one form or the other, and I knew I was not capable at that time of hearing that, it would only further wound me. So I basically just shut him down and told him I was not interested in his 'reasons' or excuses, all I at this point need to know is does he understand this was an utter failure from his end? yes? ok. That's all I need to hear for now. And I cut the discussion off after that out of self protection.

Since then we have not discussed it further, I have needed a few days to calm myself and the situation between us down so that I am in a headspace to take this conversation with him, because unfortunately I know he will not be able to say what I need to hear, and I am afraid of being further traumatised and wounded by him saying something that somehow puts the blame on me. I just don't feel like I'm ready to feel even more disappointed in him right now due to his lack of communication skills. At some point I will bring it up but knowing him, I might get more hurt rather than less after that conversation. I am also thinking of showing him this thread in a version where my pseudo is blacked out so as to give him the possibility to read all your support and maybe understand just how wounding this was? But I am reluctant to give up some of my privacy in regards to this forum towards him so I am hesitant.

In the words of my friends and IC, my WH does not have the emotional IQ or coping skills to navigate the situations we find ourselves in. He has a lot of deeply hidden issues and a carefully constructed, compartmentalized inner reality that cannot cope when icky real world fallout intrudes.

This is exactly it. And this is no news to me and it is in no way new to the A. This has been an ongoing issue between us for the duration of our marriage. This is how he handles, or rather, does not handle, any crisis or any icky feelings in life. I know this and have known it for years. He shuts them down, in any way possible. He has always done this. For the most part, I have accepted this side of him many many years ago, the decision if that was something I could live with has been taken again and again when I have felt let down by this lack in him over the years. So I am not surprised at how badly he is coping with the fallout after his A, just disappointed that not even now when the crisis we are facing is created by him, has he managed to make a significant change.
He HAS made changes, small ones, consistent ones, he does on some level get that he has to, so it has to be said, he HAS made changes compared to the pre-A version of himself. It's just those changes are probably major for him, and he struggles to even make those, but for us who do not shut down, the changes feel miniscule, and lacking still. So for me this is just another of hundreds of instances over the duration of our relationship where I would have needed so much more from him, he failed to deliver, and I realise once again I do not have the power to change him, he will probably never change completely in this department, and I have to decide if this is enough a reason for me to leave him? or can I once again find the support I need elsewhere and in myself and just accept that this is who he is, take it or leave it.