SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Upon discovery of my WH A back last October, I was completely blindsided because I never saw it coming from him, never in a million years. I truly thought our M was exempt from infidelity, regardless how shitty our M was. I remember telling myself in the months leading up to Dday and even during the A timeframe "you can trust him, no matter how shitty things are, he would never cheat on you." 🙄

In those very early days/weeks I was relatively calm about it all and my WH told me all that mumbo jumbo about how if our M was good then this would never of happened, he was lonely, depressed, wanted love/affection … all of this stuff and then an opportunity was presented, he wasn’t out looking for it (blah, blah). In a weird way (at the time) I really understood what he was saying because I felt those same feelings … but then it hits me - why didn’t I cheat?

Obviously we have both moved past using the M as an excuse for his cheating, he knows (I know) that was his choice and had nothing to do with me or our M … it’s only on him. If I have to be honest though, I still get these moments where I reflect back on the past 3 years of our M and see how hard it plummeted and that was because of faults from both of us and a serious lack of communication.

Can someone explain to me the role of a shitty M when it comes to infidelity … if it’s not a reason/excuse then what do you call it? Reading some of the books that come highly recommended, they reference that you need to discover how your relationship became vulnerable to begin with … for us that would be because of our M. So there is apart of me that gets confused by this.

Think of it this way: you are in a relationship and your combined income is lower than what your partner wants. It’s enough to live off, but not a life of old money luxury. This lower level of income deeply grates on your partner, to the point that they resort to stealing without your knowledge to get more money. When caught, your partner begins to blame you, that if you would have made more money that they never would have resorted to theft. Would you listen to that for a second? I hope not, and neither should you believe that an imperfect marriage causes cheating.

It’s the chicken or the egg, what really came first? Looking back on our M at the time my WW checked out of it. I tried everything to make improvements in the M and it just pushed her further away. It was the pick me dance before I even realized it.

Do financial struggles lead to bank robbery? Most people that rob banks are having a financial problem, but not everyone with a financial problem robs banks.

It falls completely at the feet of the person that decides to cross that moral boundary. You cannot fix M issues with intimacy from someone outside of M.

I really understood what he was saying because I felt those same feelings … but then it hits me - why didn’t I cheat? I really understood what he was saying because I felt those same feelings … but then it hits me - why didn’t I cheat?

This is it in a nutshell. It comes down to character.

People with good character do not cheat. People who have character deficiencies allow themselves to cheat.

Great answers so far.

The way I think about it is this. If the marriage was bad, there were other and better options.

He could have come to you and said "this is going off the rails. Can we work together to try and bring our relationship to a better state?"

If you were unwilling, he could have asked for a separation, or created some other boundary around what he was willing or not willing to accept.

Affairs happen in good marriages too. It did in mine. It happened when I was not coping well with my own life. Your husband might not have been coping well in your marriage. It’s not always just a lack of character, though of course anyone who does that (including myself) does demonstrate a lack integrity and empathy and consideration towards their spouse.

What your husband must figure out is what is he lacking that he needs to create in order to be a healthy and safe partner for you?

And of course, should he demonstrate growth -‘d remorse and you continue to choose reconciliation then of course I think it’s a good thing for you to think about your part in the deterioration of the relationship. Dealing with the affair needs to come first. You still have healing to do, he still needs to work on himself and prove that he is in this to win it. And after some healing occurs then you can talk about what you want the relationship to look like moving forward.

He didn’t cheat because you had a bad marriage. He cheated because it was easier to escape into a fantasy world and not deal with the problems. You didn’t cheat because you didn’t use a crutch like that to cope with what was happening.

A cheater has a personal problem - a lack of integrity.

Not sure where I read but I like the definition: "Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking."

If your marriage sucks - talk it out or

divorce. THEN you can screw around and hopefully NOT with other marrieds.

I have decided that both things can be true. The marriage can be bad with part or even a major of that due to the BS. AND the choice to cheat is still only the fault of the US.

Now in reality I think that it is unlikely to be as much that the marriage is the fault of the betrayed. We know how history gets rewritten to justify the choices. But I do believe sometimes the betrayed is not a good person. We are not automatically saints because we were betrayed.

But in those cases, the unfaithful should (and would be justified) have just left and divorced. That is the correct choice. And asshole does not deserve to be cheated on even though they may deserve to be divorced.

The state of the marriage and our own contribution to it does have to be considered and addressed. But that comes way, way after dealing with the infidelity. Once that occurs, the other problems are truly trivial.

Tobster I agree completely with you!

My marriage was not great and I was not being a good wife as much as my husband was not being a good husband.

Before the affair I had been thinking about separating from my husband quite a bit and was not there for him anymore. We were pretty much room mates with kids.

I chose to deal with my marriage issues by working more, enjoying my hobbies, going out with friends and organising day trips with my kids. But I always excluded my husband - not a good wife.

He chose to fuck a 23 year old co-worker - not a good husband.

When he tried to blame the marriage (straight after D-Day) and the fact I wouldn’t let him touch me let alone have sex, no dates etc etc I just laughed in his face. I looked him straight in the eye and said ‘And you think I was fucking happy in our marriage. You were lazy, you never talked to me, I was lonelier being married than being on my own. Why would I want you to touch me or have sex with you’.

I’ll never forget his face. It was like I sucker punched him in the gut. I think he honestly thought he was this amazing husband. I actually think in that moment he realised his excuses were absolutely null and void. And I think it was also then he knew he wasn’t the ‘good guy’ he thought he was and that he actually had some personal issues he had to work on.

It was after the affair it was obvious to me that affairs are about the WS and nothing to do with the BS. We were both in the same marriage and we dealt with it in very different ways. It has also pointed out some very big difference in our characters.

1. I am a rule follower in every aspect of life. He is not.

2. I cannot lie to save myself. He can look you straight in the eye and lie with out a flinch.

3. I honestly think about consequences all of the time for every action I do. He never gives a second thought to anything and always just did what he wanted without a thought into the future.

4. I am very ambitious and find my own happiness and joy. He relies on others to bring it to him.

5. I come from a very tight family unit that loves openly. All his family members (including him) are emotionally void and I don’t believe know how to live in the way I would expect.

Since the affair my WH has been working on all of this. Nothing like having your wife threaten to end your marriage and family as you know it if you don’t do some self reflection and work. Happy to report he is doing well, recognises and owns his faults and is trying very hard to change.

However it will always make me sad to know it took him having an affair to realise how messed up he actually was.

[This message edited by Webbit at 12:43 AM, Saturday, July 27th]

Excuse the thread Jack (if this is one)

Webbit- you are doing amazing! It’s rare to see someone with so much clarity this early in. I do kind of wonder if the fact you were detached before the affair and the work you obviously had already done in yourself before he did it has anything to do with it?

I know I wrote do all that on your post yesterday, because I didn’t realize how extraordinarily you have expanded your life and kept it rich. I just wanted to point it out because I think a lot of people (including and especially myself) didn’t go into these things with as healthy of a mindset, or what we Americans call self actualization until we realize how much we need to climb that hill just in order to survive.

I also liked what you had to say about realizing that you are scared changed your mindset. That is something I think relates greatly here. Acknowledging how one feels is a form of mindfulness, and it does help us resolve or at least tick forward the release of the feeling controlling us.

Maybe not a threadjack because if I circle back to the OP, she too has accepted this deterioration of a relationship. I think what you just wrote was so illuminating that I felt like I just wanted to draw it out a bit more because these are super empowering things.

When we marry someone, what is one of the most universal vows? To forsake all others and no one comes before our spouse. No where is there a clause that states "i met someone else who is sexy and funny and you my spouse who I have literally pledged my life and love to just aren’t doing it for me so I am having an affair".

Us, the betrayed did not make them vulnerable. The cheater is the problem not you. I have been angry at my ex, i have felt neglected and taken for granted, long before her affair. Never did I even consider cheating on her was the answer. And i have had many opportunities.

I was telling my ex how amazing she was and how much I loved her and how much I appreciated everything she did for me and our family all the while she was fucking another man.

No. He cheated because he could and thought he would get away with it, you did nothing to deserve this

Can someone explain to me the role of a shitty M when it comes to infidelity

Marriage takes two people.

Even with two decent and sparing no effort partners, sometimes a marriage just isn't good, wrong people to be married.

Divorce is usually an option. Honesty is always an option.

Cheating never makes a marriage better.

Cheating on your partner only takes one person from the marriage.

Shitty marriages don't cause cheating.

Shitty partners cheat.

Can someone explain to me the role of a shitty M when it comes to infidelity … if it’s not a reason/excuse then what do you call it?

Cheating requires mental justification (assuming the person cheating want to feel less guilt).

These ethical gymnastics usually fall into a couple of categories:

-"I'm unsatisfied/miserable and this makes me feel good." The misery or dissatisfaction may be relationship focused or just personal (like a low point in the wayward's life). The affair drops a lot of feel-good chemicals in their brains and truly makes them (temporarily) feel better. That feel-good brain chemical dump is a bit addictive and so the affair continues to keep the chemicals coming. So now cheater often becomes laser focused on the negative aspects of the marriage in order to continue to justify their unethical actions. Because, you know, if there are "extenuating REASONS," then ,of course, unethical actions become "justified."

-"I deserve this." This category is typically reserved for narcissists (if this is the MAIN or only justification). Although other justifications end up bleeding over into this category. As in, "If my marriage isn't satisfying me, then I deserve this."

While a shitty M may set the stage for a person to cheat, it isn't the reason. If S (shitty marriage) always = C (cheating), then EVERYONE would have affairs, because 100% of marriages go through shitty times.

So what's the difference between those who cheat when faced with difficulties in marriage or difficulties in their own lives?

It's emotional intelligence.

It's positive coping skills: identifying your own struggle and being able to seek positive (non destructive) tools to help fix it.

It's empathy (as opposed to self-centeredness). It's holding boundaries. It's being able to project how your actions might impact others and avoiding actions that would hurt people.

It's non-avoidance. It's being honest with yourself about what is really happening and calling yourself out when ethical gymnastics begin. (As in: I know I want to justify my actions to make myself feel better, but I need to own this.)

It's having tools to build...and rebuild as necessary...your own self-esteem.

A lack of these skills are the REAL "whys" for people who choose to cheat on their committed partners. And, IMO, these skills define the work that waywards need to do to heal themselves.

In a nutshell: A dissatisfying marriage is a life circumstance. It's not a reason. We all have to learn to deal with life circumstances in healthy ways and to say to ourselves, "This circumstance sucks. What power do I have to change this circumstance in a truly positive way?" And proceed from there.

There have been so many great answers in here.

I've been here for 10 years and I've worked on this list of reasons. I've boiled it down to personal ethics and character. But I have noticed that phrasing it like that can cause some people to bristle.

Recently, I took a business ethics course, which was a major eye-opener. It really spelled things out clearly for me. The course delved into personal ethics and character. A person of good character does the right thing, regardless of personal gain or desire.

As Confucious taught, "A gentleman will not, for the space of a meal, part from humanity. In haste and flurry, he adheres to it; in fall and stumble, he adheres by it"

I’m always grateful for those that take the time to read and respond. It’s enlightening to get to read thoughts and opinions of those who have been around a while.

I understand (my WH understands) that our M didn’t cheat, he did and he does take full accountability for his choices. Over the course of these several months I’ve told my WH time and time again that he could have asked me for a S or D … literally ANY other choice would have been better than cheating. Ironically enough he says he never wanted to ask me to S or get a D because that’s not what he wanted … all he ever wanted was for our M to work. Okay? Hmmmm? How was cheating on me going to make our M better … idiot.

Anyways … I understand all the analogies that can be used to explain why cheating is fully on the cheater (I’m not disagreeing with any of them, I really do get it). From reading all of the responses I resonate quite heavily with a few.

Tobster - when I read your response it strikes a chord with me. While I think I am generally a good person all around, I know I had become a toxic partner in the years leading up to the A. Even though I think he deserved every ounce of my shittiness, I know I handled so many things wrong and very immaturely. I finally reached the point where I completely and deliberately shut off and turned against him in every way I could … from my stance, it was easier to do this then actually have those hard conversations. After Dday, we discussed heavily how we both thought that things between us would eventually sort itself out, but they only got worse. Every situation of infidelity differs and everyone is entitled to their own feelings and views. I guess for my situation I’m trying to understand the role of a loveless/toxic/resentful M because I believe it did play a part in how our M and my WH became vulnerable to an A. We are definitely still working through the infidelity piece and discovering some of his character deficiencies that lead him to making the choice he did. It’s a lot to try to unpack and understand. Sometimes I feel like I’m just spinning on a hamster wheel.

Webbit - everything you said in your response I could have wrote … I understand this POV immensely. I was a wonderful, happy, loving mother/daughter/sister/niece/friend … but I was a cold hearted, loveless, resentful W. I felt that my WH was a lazy, entitled asshat when it came to household tasks and parental responsibilities. For (at least) 2 years prior to the A, I was asking myself "how would I know if I reach a breaking point in my M," then it finally hit me last summer … I KNEW I had enough, nothing was ever going to change and it was getting ridiculously toxic for me, him and our children. I started shopping around at D lawyers, researching housing for me and my kids, I even started writing in a journal about my feelings and to see on paper just how unhappy I was it was such an unfortunate reality. I wouldn’t even of given us the title as roommates … we were just 2 people living together … he was a paycheck to me, I was a housekeeper and nanny to him (we were completely shut off and disconnected from one another). I started sleeping in a different room, I spent any free time away from him and excluded him from every aspect of my life because I hated him … yep, I hated who he had become, but I hated who I had become as well. Fast forward … I finally ended up confronting him about how I was feeling, I was so vulnerable with him and told him we couldn’t continue on like this. I told him that we owed it to us and our children to turn it around and we needed to be better to each other. Additionally, I told myself that I would give "us" one last try and if by the new year I saw no changes or effort by him then I would walk away and be content and confident in that decision. Boom less than 72 hours later I now have a Dday! I looked him dead in the eye on that fateful night and I quote … "You’re really not worth fighting for, whoever she is, she can have you. Now get the fuck outta my house." I kicked him out. I had him retrieve all of his belongings off the front lawn the next day after work. He left for the weekend and stayed in a hotel nearby that his parents paid for. As he sat alone in the hotel room with only his thoughts he had some sort of epiphany and knew that if he wanted even the slightest chance he needed to change. One of the things he always thought was if he worked hard and provided financially for his family then his "job was complete" … he saw running and taking care of the household and raising the kids as "my job." Well … he finally sees the significance of being present at home … not only do we have time to spend together in the evenings now that he does his part, his kids have formed a bond with him and want to spend time with him (imagine that). I also am of the mindset that it’s not only sad, but extremely pathetic that my WH had to sink this low to realize he needed to be better … how does one even accept this form of realization?!

H/O - exactly this … our relationship was "deteriorating" for a very long time prior to the A. When I say our M was toxic, it was the most loneliest, most awful place in the world. I’ve always had a great support system in my family/friends and my children have become a very big comfort for me. He has nobody … not much for family, zero friends and he didn’t have much of a relationship with his children (he viewed himself as a loner). Anyway … not that any of this makes it any less severe or hurt less … but I truly think (at least in my personal situation) it did play a role in our M becoming vulnerable.

Breaking Bad - I agree with your comment and very much appreciate your thoughtful and straightforward answer to my question. The A has definitely proved that my WH has extremely poor/negative coping skills - prior to entering in his A (and actually during) he engaged in a pretty heavy porn addiction for about a year. He also was extremely self centred and only cared about himself (in certain ways, I think he felt extremely entitled to his choices).

I was a wonderful, happy, loving mother/daughter/sister/niece/friend … but I was a cold hearted, loveless, resentful W. I felt that my WH was a lazy, entitled asshat when it came to household tasks and parental responsibilities.

Heartbrokenwife23,

This part jumped out at me. In a very simplistic way, it describes the dynamic early in our marriage. My wife treated everyone in our lives better than me. Even our pets. I felt I was the lowest priority in her life. She was and is extremely selfish and my role was to "meet her needs" if no one else was around. I "served at her pleasure" if you will. After D-Day (which was 38 years later) she said some of the same things. She thought I was lazy, didn’t help enough around the house, didn’t do the things SHE wanted to do. Now, of course, she never told ME any of that at the time. I was just supposed to naturally know what she needed and wanted and fulfill those needs.

But the difference in our situation and yours is SHE is the unfaithful partner, not me. Your first statement is "I felt the same way…why didn’t I cheat"? It may sound simplistic and many others have said it. You had morals and ethics. Your husband didn’t.

I hear all the time "we were in the same marriage and I didn’t cheat". Well, I wasn’t in the same marriage as my wife. I was in a MUCH worse one. Firstly, I had all the same BS PLUS I was getting cheated on. Others have mentioned the "chicken and the egg". Did the bad marriage cause cheating or did the cheating cause a bad marriage? In our case, my wife sabotaged the marriage to justify her cheating. She would turn cold, withhold sex, blame me for everything, tell me she didn’t think she loved me. But always AFTER she had cheated or started an inappropriate relationship. So our "shitty marriage" issues were not 50/50. More like 80/20. I could have been a better husband absolutely. But I also give myself the grace of knowing that when you get the vibes someone resents you or doesn’t like you, it’s human nature to respond in kind. But that doesn’t include cheating.

In our case, my wife started off blaming the marriage too. After much therapy and introspection, she listed the things that she felt caused her to cheat. We had the usual suspects of "selfishness, needing external validation, her attachment styles, FOO issues". At the end of the list she added "I didn’t have any morals".