SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've asked my WH to leave, to give me space to heal and not be consumed with anger and pain every time I look at him while it seems he was quickly going back to same Ole same ole. Yes, he reached out to 2 counselors, set 1 appointment and filled out info for the 2nd. Yes, he shows me his phone, credit card statements, whatever I ask. But he didn't want to leave. I haven't seen a single teardrop. I told him HE needs to do the work to prove himself, stop lying to me or "forgetting" things. He says it is because he is terrified.

But what DO I need to see from him in terms of behavior and words? I truly don't know what "doing the work" should look like. He is putting accountability software on his phone and laptop, but yet again that seems like me being babysitter, again.

He is leaving the house tomorrow, for an undetermined period of time, a week or 2 i would guess, bare minimum until he starts therapy. Until I don't feel the level of pain I feel now I guess.

I think whenever possible therapy is a basic necessity. Not everyone has the resources, but it can help the ws figure out the whys and how’s of their cheating, bringing a self awareness of things they need to change in their life from a foundational perspective. This is everything from why they felt entitled to do it, to the integrity they lacked, to the ways they don’t support their own happiness and coping skills.

Reading books, listening to podcasts were also helpful to me to understand other ways to think and be. I particularly loved the book rising strong because it talks about how fear and shame can dictate thoughts and behavior and what vulnerability and connection should look like, why it’s important, and how to take small risks to larger risks to land there.

Bringing up the affair, discussing the affair any time the bs brings it up. No defensiveness or impatience. Full honesty. Gaining a deeper understanding of their behaviors to be able to convey what they have learned is crucial.

Showing the bs improvements in day to day interaction as well as making sure they are doing things that reinforce trust, love, respect,etc.
Doing what they say they will and more.

I agree- transparency over devices is bare minimum stuff. It should be there but it doesn’t require emotional work from the ws.

He is leaving tomorrow after a morning meeting. He says this to me just now when I just got home from work...

"I took down the garbage and I'll bring the cans back up tomorrow. Then I'll take the rest of your garbage out tomorrow."

I looked at him questioningly. I mean me, he says.

Then he says I made chicken. I'm gonna go in the office so I'll let you eat and watch TV without having to be with me.

THIS IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK, right???!! Trying to make me feel bad for "shunning him" essentially. Dear God.

Sorry BRBLife but this is not doing the work. These insincere self deprecating comments do not count as doing the work. It’s almost like he is mocking your pain that he caused! Has he read How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by McDonald? He should read it. He needs to show honest humility and remorse for his betrayal. This requires him to take a hard look at how he became so broken as to betray his BW. Demonstrating real empathy for your pain, rather than wallowing in his own shame. A willingness to answer any and all questions you have about the A, even if you’ve asked them a hundred times before. He needs to stand by you when you trigger or fill with anger without defensiveness. Those are just a few things he needs to do. Others will come along to expand the list. Remember to always value yourself.

I looked at him questioningly. I mean me, he says.

Then he says I made chicken. I'm gonna go in the office so I'll let you eat and watch TV without having to be with me.

THIS IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK, right???!! Trying to make me feel bad for "shunning him" essentially. Dear God.

No definitely not what it looks like.

He is trying to manipulate you into feeling sorry for him. He doesn’t get it. He is still making it about him.

Someone trying to work through things with you would still maybe make some dinner. They would put in a brave face and tell you to take all the time you need, that they understand how badly they hurt you. And that they will be available when you are ready to talk.

And during the separation time they would be focused on getting their shit together. Going to therapy, reading books, and being supportive when you do come around.

And it continues. Saturday and Sunday after the confrontation he accepted 100% of blame. Now I'm hearing him ask if he really needs to keep appointments with 2 counselors, backtracking on things he said before, minimizing lying and attempting more guilt inspiring. Deflecting, asking me if I am always completely honest with him. He is asking what I want out of his therapy, also why aren't we doing couples therapy. To me this says no genuine remorse, no real taking responsibility and a continuation of most things being my job and my responsibility. As has been his norm, he says what he think i want him to say, then expects me to be happy with his words with no real translation to his behavior, and all goes back to normal.

My daughter, who is very knowledgeable about therapy, thinks it is pointless for him to go, and that he will say what he thinks the therapist wants to hear but has no interest in bettering himself. I am truly feeling little hope at this point. He probably believes his own lies and rationalization. It's like a classic jeckyl and Hyde

I agree, until he sees his problems and genuinely wants to change them, he will keep trying find ways to get by to try and satisfy others. He has to want to make the change to be a better person not just to improve a relationship he wants to keep.

However, if the therapist is good, they may well be able to detect the bullshit. And I will say that as you talk to one sometimes you do become more self aware. Whether or not that will happen is hard to say. Because they are going to start with his Foo, and try and help him connect the patterns.

You do run the risk of losing time and money.

Deflecting, asking me if I am always completely honest with him.

This comparison is, of course, laughable on the face of it. It's like asking if killing a fly is the same as murdering a person. "It's not like you've never killed an animal!"

...

To give more rigorous thought to this question, as though it were earnestly asked and not a stupid deflection:

I'm pretty rigid as it comes to honesty with my wife.

What is "completely honest" when we allow things like white lies or lies of omission for reasons of comfort?

You can either full reject deceit, which is tough. So called "brutal honesty". Or you can ask a simple series of questions about whether the honesty matters.

1) "Do they deserve the truth?" Is the the person you are not being "completely honest" with someone you owe loyalty, or is otherwise being negatively affected by your actions? Are you denying them agency? You don't have to be honest with a telemarketer about your immediate availability or interest in their product. You don't have to be honest if a beggar asks if you have any spare change in your wallet. You don't have to be honest if someone trying to do harm is attempting to extract information from you.

2) "Is the truth useful?" Is the truth actionable in a meaningful way at all with plenty of time available? You don't have to be honest if you think someone is ugly due to a physical deformity, or if you find them stupid. There is nothing they can do about it. Since there is no remedy to the problem and the truth itself is considered rude, it's OK to withhold.

3) "Does it need to be right now?" Is the truth appropriate in this instant? Usually for lies of omission in social settings. You get asked an uncomfortable question where the honest answer is not useful or immediately actionable. If the person can't immediately act on the information, you can save it for later. This might be a question related to weight or wardrobe, for example. The information is useful so should be conveyed, but it is not useful immediately, so you can delay briefly until a more appropriate time is available.

In proceeding with the A, these test are failed horribly. Probably a minimum of hundreds of times, likely, thousands of times.

I had the same question of what it might look and feel like, to me, where I would KNOW he was doing work that actually made a difference in my heart. My WH seems to suffer with some form of autism (as does my son, who has recently been officially dx in his 30's!) where he struggles to truly understand basic 'feelings' and how to interpret them. UGH, our recovery has been a nightmare because of this, but it makes sense now as to "why" he isn't "getting it".

Anyway, I was watching the 1st season of Frank and Gracie (series with Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin and Martin Sheen). In the 2nd episode, Lily Tomlins exWH shows remarkable skill in his validation and support of his infidelity over their entire marriage. Each episode shows more examples of HOW to do this work and WH and I are watching it together so he can visualize and hear HOW it done.

Just another option... watch YouTube "Jimmy on Relationships" because that WH figured it all out and is another great coach!

Hope this helps. I'm 36 yrs married, dday #2 (covering 4 seperate affairs he had over the years) was 14 yrs ago. We are just now setting limit on how much longer I will be in this situation. Without change, I am done.

It seems interesting that the betrayed’s understand "the work" yet the cheaters just don’t.

In some situations, like this one, there are other factors that appear to be in play here. If your H truly has some issues understanding feelings and empathy and such, it will be hard to translate feelings and emotions to you.

It appears he is trying but not succeeding. Which is better than not trying at all. But that doesn’t help you here.

What would go a long way (I believe) is if the cheater initiated a conversation and was truly remorseful.

However I think many cheaters just cannot do that. It’s too painful for them. So they avoid it. Unfortunately from the betrayed perspective it adds more drama and pain to the marriage b/c you are not getting what you need.

12many

I'll have to check that show out. I was just looking at it the other day. I love Jimmy on relationships. I'll suggest it to wh, though not hopeful he would "hear" him. Thank you.

1stwife

If only he would initiate a MEANINGFUL conversation, better yet one that was brutally honest as well. The only things he has admitted PERIOD are the things i have to bring up and question. He is so deep in defense and denial I just don't see it happening.

Rising Strong,

thank you for the recommendation. I am hoping therapy will help him to start to honestly look at himself and his behaviors toward me, his children and grandchildren.

Fareast...

Yes, his "jokes" absolutely do feel like he is mocking my pain! The problem with recommending a book based on helping your spouse Heal from an affair is at this point I have only revealed to him that I know about his porn addiction and his behavior online as well as his alcoholism and lying. I have told him that my gut tells me That he has not been faithful to me and that he has gone outside our marriage, whether that be with some one he knows Or paid sex workers. He is unaware that I Have tracked his time line on google maps for the past nine years. I am holding on to that information in order to get A few things in order in my life and him to get into therapy before I put these particular cards on the table.

Hiking out

Yes, I certainly Hope the therapist delves thoroughly into his family of origin. His biological father abandoned him and his sister and mother when he was two and went on to father at least Six other children that we know of. He was extremely charming and an expert philanderer and bigamist. The apple may not have fallen far from the tree despite how well he has hidden it.

Thisisfine

I absolutely love your thorough description regarding honesty and lies. It seems like it should be obvious what constitutes a "need to know" situation, but it seems not so for everyone. Thank you

BRBLife, when I read your post this morning, I had to quote it to my SAfWH (I hope former SAfWH) because you put into sentences just what I've been trying to explain to him is missing - for YEARS! I find I have to keep mentioning that there is a whole concept called "partnership" that lies beyond rebuilding trust and ceasing the fantasy, porn or other sexual infidelity, but my SAfWH seems to think he has done everything necessary to control his baser instincts, forgetting there is another person in the picture.

When, a few hours later, I came across your latest reply on this, I had to gasp! Yep, me too, here with the spectrum guy and the likely FOO legacy of Sexual Infidelity (and Child Sexual Abuse in this case). The thing I have been told and have to reluctantly accept - but I cannot! - is that if a person is severely disordered or otherwise missing the "empathy" aspect of their brain, they just cannot grasp something their brain does not want to admit is missing! Considering a spouse's perspective, even in day-to-day activities, seems like expecting such a person to understand a foreign language, and all the reading I've ever done confirms this, sadly.

I long ago fell into the same wondering: when does the Wayward at least start to do some of the "work"? Let me share: I have been trying for 22 years to give my guy a chance to identify his deficiencies, starting with at least catching himself before continually abusing my good will, after I did my best to forgive his unforgivable, multiple D-Days with prostitutes, which effort on my part he seems oblivious to. (Although in fairness, we never R'd and just continue this IHS purgatory, I'd expect even a freaking roommate wouldn't be so consistently oppositional or downright rude!). Well, that breakthrough hasn't happened, yet. (I may read your latest post to him, as well. I have no real expectation it will make a dent. Our dog trainer says "repetition-repetition-repetition is the way to learn new behaviors." Ha.)

I even read online last night that with argumentative types like my WH, it is best to "suggest" a course of action so they don't take everything you say as "orders from headquarters," like mine mostly does. (I think it's because he only hears the words spoken, but all background/history or context as to why someone would make the statement fails to enter his mind). Example: this morning I made a suggestion about how he may want to collect excess sausage grease while he cooks it up, after the new batch we bought produced a lot more fat in the sauce pan. I immediately gett back a defensive "excuse" line about how he usually does it. Sheesh, it was just a suggestion! He could have said "OK. Let's see if that works." But he'd rather have somebody to OPPOSE, kwim?

Hope your WH can find some help that mine never has been able to. Or rephrasing it: I hope he gets MOTIVATED to find out what's missing in him and start taking freakin' lessons on how to fake it until he makes it.

Sometimes you just have to let the cheaters think it’s their own idea.

Because if it is "their idea" they buy in. If not, they oppose.

It’s hard to "parent" an adult 🤪