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I presented a timeline to him 2 weeks ago and asked him to account for years worth of questionable locations. He was angry, says I keep blindsiding him every time he thinks we are moving forward, and the next day packed a bag and went to his sister's. That was 2 weeks ago. Zero contact for a week, then our son met with him and told him he really needs to go through this timeline, that if he means he will do ANYTHING to fix this, just do this thing.

He reached out to me a week ago, and we met at a park to talk. It went HORRIBLY. He arrived angry, asked if I would go to counseling, when I said yes but wanted to go through the timeline first, he didn't see the point, said I would never believe him but that he had never been unfaithful to me (though I view enormous amounts of secret porn, commenting on naked women's pictures, keeping a handwritten list of your favorite naked instagram women as infidelity big time). I said but we have established that you have a history of lying to me, so it stands to reason that going through this is reasonable before considering counseling/reconciliation. He immediately got up, said we are DONE, got in his car and drove away. 30 minutes later when I got myself under control I texted him a message saying that I was always willing to try, and never expected him to give up so easily and walk away from our 35 year relationship. All those years of saying how much he loved me and he walked away. No response. 2 more of our kids met to talk with him. Our 4th child told him after how he spoke to me at our meeting, she had no interest in meeting up. According to the two who met with him, he is now blaming me (he did this in our last meeting too, I wasn't meeting his needs, what was he supposed to do?) and saying he will not be scrutinized by going over the timeline.

This response from him when I met with him sent me into a well of pain that I couldn't get under control. I couldn't stop crying, couldn't get past him saying we are done. It wasn't what I expected. I expected him to miss me, be miserable, want to try, be willing. Instead, he was ANGRY. I think he thinks I have done 3 things....poisoned his kids against him (his words), distrusted him and investigated him and not laid it all on the table at once. I explained that I had done it in stages because I legitimately thought he was going to be a danger to himself if I plopped it all out there. I wanted him to have had a base of therapy before I laid it all out. He didn't believe this.

He was, in the past, according to him, always my biggest fan, he called me his beautiful bride, said I was the most beautiful woman in the world, had nicknames for me, etc.... but if I'm being honest most of this was superficial for at least the last 7 or 8 years or more. He had been more interested in his phone than me in person. I'm no saint in this though. I was resentful, bitter, angry about having to have been his mother all these years rather than feeling I had a partner by my side. The alcohol, anger, porn, those were bad enough, but to see him being what I always called his "saint" mode to the rest of the world....nieces, nephews, my sisters, store clerks, restaurant servers, to everyone he was this awesome, friendly, helpful funny guy. I saw that guy sometimes too, but the kids and I were the only ones to see ugly, angry, hateful guy. So which guy is real? I admit that I held him at arm's length with affection. We used to sleep spooned years ago. Now, never, if we even were sleeping in the same room. We used to hold hands, our kisses good morning and goodbye were more than pecks. Not now. Not for quite a while. I sensed something though, my gut was talking to me, and being physically intimate with someone is a vulnerability I was feeling needed more security to express. It is true that our drives NEVER matched. He always wanted more. I always felt like I wasn't doing enough, even when I tried my best.

A family friend recommended a marriage class that I could go to alone, or my husband could go with or whatever. Our friend and his girlfriend go to this class and he says it is great. So I reached out today to see if he was interested. He is. He ordered the books for the class for us and we are set to go Sunday. I'm fairly fearful.

I don't know what really I'm looking for. Your perspective? What do you think? I do know that taking this tiny step made a big difference in not having that pit in my stomach. I feel a little more peace. I know this isn't magic, but I felt like I did SOMETHING. I know my kids would say, why didn't HE do something? It's true.

He is angry and using that anger as manipulation to get you to drop it and STFU.

IMHO - you have every right to demand answers and not take his deflection crap he's slinging [anger, refusal to provide answers, blaming you, etc. blah blah blah]. Nor do you have to buy the love bombing he's weaponizing [his biggest fan, his beautiful bride, the most beautiful woman in the world, nicknames]

What you do about it is up to you. You do not have to make any permanent decisions right now. You can attend the class or not - if nothing else, you can look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you tried.

PS - glad to see your children see through him and call him out on this crap.

I was resentful, bitter, angry about having to have been his mother all these years rather than feeling I had a partner by my side. The alcohol, anger, porn, those were bad enough, but to see him being what I always called his "saint" mode to the rest of the world....nieces, nephews, my sisters, store clerks, restaurant servers, to everyone he was this awesome, friendly, helpful funny guy. I saw that guy sometimes too, but the kids and I were the only ones to see ugly, angry, hateful guy. So which guy is real? I admit that I held him at arm's length with affection. We used to sleep spooned years ago. Now, never, if we even were sleeping in the same room. We used to hold hands, our kisses good morning and goodbye were more than pecks. Not now. Not for quite a while. I sensed something though, my gut was talking to me, and being physically intimate with someone is a vulnerability I was feeling needed more security to express. It is true that our drives NEVER matched. He always wanted more. I always felt like I wasn't doing enough, even when I tried my best.

Maybe he wasn't a good husband and the resentment affected the intimacy. I know in the beginning I thought me and my xWS were perfect. I wasn't attracted to him like I have been with other people, but I really enjoyed his personality until I didn't. I too felt like a mother in the M and it killed my sex drive.

The whole putting on the saint act my XWS was good at too. Me and my kids also saw who he was when he was home. My xWS was diagnosed as a Narcissist. They are not good rebuilders in a M and cannot take accountability for their actions. The fact that he is so angry with you for your reaction to him hurting you is not a good sign.

Maybe your libido dropped because of who he is. I used to think there was something wrong with me that I was repulsed by my xWS but I believe it was how he treated me, the A's, how I had to be the role of "mother" rather than "partner in the M. It all adds up. Honestly I don't think it is you but more of how your body is reacting to him and how he treats you.

Oh my xWS was also addicted to porn and our sex life was usually just sex he was incapable of being emotionally vulnerable and intimate with me.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 12:47 AM, Thursday, November 14th]

When are you going to get ANGRY over his BS? When are you going to demand he either fix what he broke or get gone for good so you can go on to have an amazing life without him. You act as if everything depends on him. YOU have agency to tell him to go fuck right off if he will not commit to actions that make you feel safe in the M.
Shove his entitled ass right off the fence. Maybe if you take off the kid gloves and stop acting in fear, he might just surprise you and realize he needs to get his head out of his fourth point of contact (anus).
Your situation is heartbreaking, but you have the power to change the narrative. You cannot control his actions or his choice, but you can chose to stop reacting and start determining your own actions to take to get out of infidelity.

Read up on the 180.

IMO that is what you should be doing.

He is angry and using that anger as manipulation to get you to drop it and STFU

This. Early on I was afraid of my wife leaving and this kept me doing the pick me dance. She would respond with anger and I would back down, make concessions, etc. It took me months to get my feet on solid ground and get my courage back but the moment I did everything changed.

During one conversion she said "Placing blame doesn't help, both of us are at fault" She had the balls to think AND SAY that I was partially responsible for her having an affair. I said "I am not at fault for what you did. This is all on you." She tried using DARVO (deny attack reverse victim offender)

Once she realized I was willing to end the relationship and that I would be okay without her she changed her attitude. It took her a while to be able to say this was 100% my fault.

Take away his power by responding to his anger with anger. Let him know you are willing to end the relationship and move on to find somebody who will honor and respect you and he is free to do the same

The alcohol, anger, porn, those were bad enough, but to see him being what I always called his "saint" mode to the rest of the world....nieces, nephews, my sisters, store clerks, restaurant servers, to everyone he was this awesome, friendly, helpful funny guy.

This is how you know that he's manipulating you. He can control when he's the ugly, mean guy and switches to saint mode. It's emotional abuse and meant to control you. You don't have to stay in an abusive relationship.

I hear all of your points. They all make sense, totally. Yes, i figure this class will allow me to say I did EVERYTHING possible to save this marriage, literally EVERYTHING. I'm doing things right now and saying things that I NEVER thought I would do. I was the woman who always said I would take his shit and light in on fire in the front lawn if I found out he had been a cheater. Yeah, I guess I do have a flash in the pan anger. Then it wanes, I calm down, whatever you want to call it. No matter how hard I try to STAY pissed, it wanes. I've heard it said here before. I"m not mourning the marriage or the relationship, I"m mourning what I THOUGHT it was. What it never was.

as far as him using his anger to manipulate me and get me to STFU, absolutely. I have told him this many many times. I said you just want me to "get over it and STFU". 2 months and you expect this? 4 years later you are still with the porn (but I gave it up! I haven't touched it in 2 months....wow, good for you, let me bake a cake)

I've read up on the 180. I guess I don't understand the literal actions to take. To me it was very esoteric, hard to pin down, I need concrete behaviors. Maybe I read it wrong, didn't read it fully. I don't know.

I'm afraid I am doing the pick me dance with this class. I could have gone on my own, but I reached out to him. He said yes and I"m hearing what good news that is from some family members (not my kids). It does feel a bit like the pick me dance. I keep visualizing things I could have done in the past regarding physical displays of affection, where I went wrong, and then I stop myself and think, no no no no no. His behaviors were NOT your fault, no matter how he tries to spin it. Was I a perfect wife? No. But I was a damn good one. I cooked, I hosted, I planned, I cared for his family even when they hated me the first 15 years of our marriage for no real reason. I listened, I supported, I encouraged him, reassured him that I loved him all the time when he would be disparaging of himself (he has made a career of disparaging himself) I need to remember when my MIL finally told me she finally realized what a good wife and mother I was, after 15 years. I still am. I took a lot of bullshit all those years from his family, yet here he is and his sibling, my former BFF, blaming me, ignoring me, same shit different decade I guess.

Emotional abuse. Yeah, I guess it has been. The kids and I only seeing his ugly side.....for years I thought that meant that he was most comfortable being himself around us. But no. When I would call him out, he would say but this is how I'm feeling, am I not allowed to express my feelings? So you won't/can't express frustration and anger with people at work or with your own family, but you will take it out on me and the kids at home? You won't express to your mother that you are hurt/upset, with her you can't express your true feelings, but at home we get the emotional vomit?

Thanks all. This is such a nightmare. I just keep visualizing scenarios where things could have gone differently, still could go differently, and then I wonder if I am being a total fool.

I'm going to the class on Sunday. Wondering now which man I will see when I get there. He will put on a nice show for the strangers there no doubt.

In the midst of our horrible conversation at the park, sitting at a picnic table, he was mid-snarl, telling me how I would never believe him and how I had to take responsibility for some of this, when he looked up, spread a smile across his face and said hello to the stranger walking past. Seriously.

Yes, i figure this class will allow me to say I did EVERYTHING possible to save this marriage, literally EVERYTHING.

This is an observation, not a criticism: you haven't done EVERYTHING, and the class is just more of the same. You haven't effectively stood up for yourself. You haven't effectively demanded that he address his addictions and abusiveness.

You've done what you thought you signed up for in getting married. That's admirable (really - no sarcasm ), but it hasn't worked, not because of some lack in you but because of your WS's many issues. He has not been a good H to you.

I suggest reading 'The Simplified 180', not the original doc. SerJr makes it easier to understand, and there are fewer internal contradictions.

Look at the 180 positively: talk to your H only about taking care of the children or finances, nothing else. Before you say or text anything to your H (and IMO it's best not to text), you can ask yourself if it's about kids or finances and stop yourself if it's not. Post here if you want to talk about something with him, but it's not about kids or finances.

Yeah, I agree that taking the class is a mistake. You're not the problem in your M; your H is - and will continue to be, unless he changes. If he's an alcoholic, that would be a good place for him to start, IMO.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:40 PM, Thursday, November 14th]

It's so bizarre that I haven't effectively stood up for myself or demanded he address his addictions or abusiveness. That is NOT how I would have ever seen myself, in the past or currently. It is bizarre to me that when I see myself as ABC, or believe my response to something would be XYZ, it means nothing. You can think and believe that THIS is what you will do, say, etc... but the reality is you do not know until you are in that exact position. I can play all bad-ass, say I will kick his ass out, not take that treatment, never would stand for him raising a hand (he really has never done this), but until you are in those shoes, do you really know? You don't. I was the lone hold out in interacting with my sister's husband when he returned after a fucked up period of infidelity. I was not giving him a hug, welcoming him back, forgiving and forgetting, like the rest of the family did. It took me a couple years, at least. Why do I not defend myself like I did my sister?

So here is my understanding of 180 as I have reread it. Be my own best friend. Give myself the advice I would give me if I were on the outside looking in. Ignore the things he says or does to incite me. KNOW that nothing I did caused this. I'm not perfect, but I didn't do the things he did. This draws a big distinction. His behavior right now, acting as if *I* somehow am in the wrong, persuading his siblings to behave similarly, is not my problem. I don't believe it and I won't participate in this fiction.

I hope I'm getting it. Be my own best advice columnist. Look at it all from an objective outside perspective. Then move on with life in my own best interests.

Showing grace and empathy is a good thing. However, you also have to show the same for yourself. You have to find the line between showing grace and empathy and showing self love and self respect. If you continue, you will lose yourself. Loss of self is soul crushing. Setting boundaries also allows you to not have the "what ifs."
We are supposed to expect more from those that profess to love us. Would you accept this behavior from a stranger off the street? If not, then why is it acceptable from a loved one?I protect the people I love, I don't abuse them or cause them harm. Therefore, I don't accept anything less from those around me. Don't you know you deserve better?

Once she realized I was willing to end the relationship and that I would be okay without her she changed her attitude

From another poster, this is spot on. Nothing changed for me until dday2 when I told my H in a very calm, rational manner I was D him. I had no other choice. I finally put myself first and stopped being an idiot and trying to fix our Marriage while he continued to cheat.

The hard 180 was immediately implemented.

I did not do his laundry after dday2 (11 years later I still don’t do his laundry)

I don’t do his errands anymore (11 years later and that has not changed)

I did not eat meals w/ him or cook diner for him (unless the kids were home and we ate together)

I did not speak to him unless kids were home

I hoarded $ (preparing to D)

I created my own social life and he was NOT included (girl things, nothing more than that)

I changed my focus — he and the marriage stopped being my priorities

I told him he had to leave our house. He refused. In front of him I called a friend and asked if he could stay a few days until he figured out where he was going to live. He was shocked and still thought he had control of the situation He very quickly learned he has NO POWER!

I stopped caring about him, our marriage, what he thought and what he wanted. I started winning when I became the person least invested in our marriage and started putting myself first.

11,years later and guess who wears the pants in the family. Me.

I was you. I backed down. I did STFU! And I see now how my H took my kindness and doormat mentality and used it against me. Because I allowed it.

I hope this helps you. My H never thought I would stand up to him. He underestimated me completely.

PS I did not know about this site when all of this happened. I was operating on my common sense(?!) and determination to put me & kids first. My H no longer even tries to manipulate me. It no longer works.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 10:13 AM, Sunday, November 17th]

I will sometimes get angry if my FWW accuses me of something I haven't done. (For context, I'm not slinging self-righteous arrows from on high, I'm a Mad Hatter who has put in the work and requires credit for his progress.)

I don't get the impression that's what your H is doing. Guilty people often retreat to anger as a deflection. Though, this is not to say he is definitively guilty. People who have never developed self-reflection, self-honesty, and discipline will also retreat to anger and self-delusion as a way of avoiding accountability or the handling of their problems. He certainly demonstrates avoidance with alcohol, porn, and the inability to conduct a reasonable conversation.

I would say this definitely belongs in Reconciliation, but you have to really ask yourself what exactly you are reconciling with.

Some here have said to meet anger with anger, but I'll offer a different perspective. Responding with anger will often give a manipulative person all the (false) justification they need to continue on his tack. Calm assurance and unflinching resolve to be in a beneficial, safe environment with or without him takes away any real or imagined "culpability" that you might have for his anger, whilst maintaining an entirely reasonable position, yourself.

"Your unwillingness to address this situation at all tells me enough about your regard for me and our relationship." And then leave it at that. The ball is entirely within his court, and if he's not man enough to field it, that's all on him.