SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi,

I’ve been reading these forums for a while now but yet to post, I didn’t feel ready.

I’m 9 months out from DDay. My partner had a ONS while away for a work, a job he’s still in and refuses to leave. It involves a lot of travel, mostly 1-3 days here and there, but sometimes longer, one trip this year was six weeks. He loves his job, it’s hard to get one and the same field that doesn’t involve travel. He did look but I didn’t like the amount of travel that came with the jobs he found, they seemed worse.

Aside from this he’s taken some actions on improving himself, has changed the way he behaves while away for a work in that he no longer involves himself in social activities, just works and returns to the hotels afterwards, he’s stopped drinking, he calls and texts a lot when he’s away, he’s putting in more of an effort at home, and has taken on a second job that is more steady and local and helps more financially.

I’ve been doing a lot of reading and ‘soul searching’ I guess and this has been up and down. I feel like I’m always realising something new about myself/our relationship that I hadn’t noticed before.

We tried MC immediately after DDay which was an awful idea but she did point out some things I hadn’t noticed, like how he makes big decisions that affect me/the kids without me.

He won’t allow me full access to his phone/laptop, although he does tell me the code but he doesn’t like me looking through it because it’s an ‘invasion of privacy’ and says he has a right to have private conversations with his friends. I wouldn’t like him reading my messages with my friends either so I wavered on this and said I can ask to look at who he’s been messaging any time I want. I haven’t actually done this at all yet, but one night last week, I noticed him delete a message thread on WhatsApp so I asked who it was. It was one of his friends (female but I have no concerns there) so I asked why he deleted it. He said she’d asked how we were doing (she knows about everything) and he had said that I’d been really mad at him that week and then he thought I might get mad that he said that so he deleted it. Thing is, I wouldn’t have asked to read those messages. If I looked at who he was texting, I’d only be looking for questionable people, ie females that I don’t know or would have reservations about.
So that’s spun me out.

Another thing is I asked him to book the whole month around our DDay anniversary off working away (which is totally doable with notice). He’s booked one trip off, in which he’d be returning to the country of where he cheated and would be on DDay. Although he left that a while because ‘I hoped you might change your mind’.

He has another trip at the beginning of that month for a week far away, which is also the week of my birthday, and he said that seemed like over kill.

My dilemma now is, I can’t decide whether to keep trying, whether to dig my heels in about these things that are bothering me, whether to just accept the good that he is doing and take that for now. I don’t know what I’m doing.

I’ve seen a lot of people say they feel they didn’t know their WS, that they looked at the differently after. Thing is, I tried to block this out, but I always felt like this would happen one day. I always thought his boundaries with women were a little skewed and that he was always looking for something else, like I was never enough. We’ve been together fifteen years, and over that time, I’ve counted nine women he’s been involved with in some way or another (mostly when we were younger and off and on, but four of them since we had kids - one an EA (which he still refuses to accept), one an inappropriate friendship, one a girl he met on dating apps while we were broken up for a short time and slept with, and the ONS). Throw in some alcohol and drug problems, I feel like he’s always looking for something more.

Yet he won’t leave. He doesn’t want to leave and when I made him leave, he begged to come back. Swears he loves me, can’t live without me.

And I’m just very very confused and honestly very very depressed lately. I’m at a complete loss at what to do. How do I make such a big decision? We have three kids aged 7-14. I just feel so stuck. One minute I think oh he’s trying so hard, cut him some slack and the next I’m raging about not only the ONS but stuff he did years ago that I should probably be over by now but I clearly just rug swept at the time.

I’m so overwhelmed by it all I can’t think straight anymore.

He won’t allow me full access to his phone/laptop, although he does tell me the code but he doesn’t like me looking through it because it’s an ‘invasion of privacy’

After infidelity all bets are off on the "invasion of privacy" How do you rebuild that trust without verifying? It doesn't have to be forever but access to the electronic devices was a requirement for me. There are still other ways they can get around it as my xWS did with a burner phone so it's not always foolproof.

Another boundary I would lay down is no contact with the EA partner and no more conversations with females. He shouldn't be discussing how you are doing with another female it's none of their business.

It takes a long time to get over an A at least 2-5 years and I would say more on the 5 year end. He has totally turned your lives upside down.

Make sure he sees an IC to figure out why he would allow himself to betray you and your children in this way and the blame isn't on the partnership it's something in him. Some excuse he gave himself to have the ONS. Also have him read "Not Just Friends" and "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair."

You should also see your own IC (Individual Counselor). Marriage Counseling is something you do when the M is having problems not the infidelity that is an individual issue.

Take your time to explore your feelings and maybe not put R on the table for a few years until you see big changes from him. You may also decide it was a dealbreaker and that is ok too.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 5:29 PM, Wednesday, November 20th]

I pointed out that it wouldn’t be forever but he’s against it. If he’s deleting messages anyway, then what’s the point in me being able to look at who he’s messaging and he would probably delete stuff if I had full access I assume.

I’m not really bothered about him talking to the female friend about us, they’ve been friends pretty much the whole time we’ve been together and I see no issues and have no concerns with their friendship. We have made an agreement that he has no new female friendships though.
He actually works with the woman from the EA again, in his second job, but they don’t speak much now unless it’s about work. She did bring up something from the past though the other day about me having reservations about their friendship before which got under my skin. Why bring that up?

He’s on a waiting list for IC due to mental health issues. I also tried IC but haven’t been able to find one I like.

I was thinking of trying MC again, for the sole purpose of working on communication and trying to get him to listen better. But I’m not sure if that’s worth it or not?

He seems to be doing the easier work, but not the deeper work. I think he should just book IC privately but he’s waiting, even though the waiting list is long and it will probably be months and months.
He won’t quit the job, for the sole reason that he enjoys it, nothing to do with money.
He reads articles I send him but barely says anything about them or tries to dispute the points made. He won’t read any books I suggest.

Whenever I’m having a bad day he’s just instantly like ‘are you mad at me?’ He actually said he would prefer if I was sad rather than angry at him, which I don’t know how to take.

I’ve been trying to focus on the good changes but the bad stuff just seems too much but I don’t know if I’m just sensitive right now and looking for reasons to be mad at him or if I’m right in feeling this way.

This sound a lot like my WS's behavior after dday (his was a 3 year LTA, not a ONS), down to "I was hoping you'd change your mind about that." Doing the bare minimum. Moping around and feeling sorry for himself a lot. Asking to have privacy. And guess what - he was holding stuff back. There was false R for 2.5 months, but also secrets kept for months after. I'm so sorry, torturedpoet. This is very typical stuff for some WS's. I had to get serious about leaving the marriage multiple times, and each time, he'd shape up for a while and then slide back into poor habits or pick up new bad habits. We are now 2 years past dday1, and I'm going to separate and move out.

R works best when the WS is truly remorseful and giving 100% to repairing the marriage. The ones who don't take initiative and who are genuinely interested in discovering what's wrong with themselves and making improvements. The BS can only do so much.

I'm so sorry you find yourself here and in such a terrible situation. It's hard to break up a marriage when you have young kids! That's one of the main reasons I've tried to make it work. I think you're going to have take some drastic action to shake him out of his comfort zone.

You said: "My dilemma now is, I can’t decide whether to keep trying, whether to dig my heels in about these things that are bothering me, whether to just accept the good that he is doing and take that for now."

I suggest not just digging in your heels but also making a plan to exit and letting him know you're serious about it. It's often said around here that you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. I'll add that there's still no guarantees, but it's often the kick in the pants that a WS needs to get serious.

Good luck, hugs, and stay strong!

Based on what you've said, I'd be suspicious of him cheating again too.

His actions, as described, don't reflect someone earnestly trying to change and keep their relationship.

I'd definitely advise you to continue being cautious here.

I'm sorry this happened to you and wish you any strength you believe you need (and any clarity you need for your eyes).

Thank you for validating my concerns.

I think I’m going to have a talk with him about the trip I don’t want him to go on, suggest MC again in the new year, and talk about the phone issue.

I think my trouble is I hate conflict and always feel bad for voicing my feelings (something I’m trying to work on).

I also want to make it clear to him that right now I’m still undecided and just because he’s still here doesn’t mean I’m going to let him stay here forever. I want him to know that right now, the only reason I’m still trying is for the glimmer of hope of the smaller actions he’s taking, but mainly it’s because of the kids. If it wasn’t for the kids I would be out, and I have no doubts about that. I want him to know that he has to work for it, very hard, because as far as I’m concerned he’s killed the relationship. But again, I worry about making him feel bad, which is crazy because he’s caused me all this pain and I’m still worried about hurting his feelings by being honest about what he’s done to me.

I think that’s maybe where MC could be good, somewhere to voice my feelings with someone there to mediate because it feels sometimes like we’re both speaking a different language and he’s just not fully getting the severity of the situation and what his actions have caused. I feel like he’s not listening to me properly when I talk, like all he’s hearing is ‘you’re a terrible person and I hate you’. It’s incredibly frustrating.

I'd be worried about his cheating right now. After all, he denies he had an EA. He chooses his work travel over you, and you know he at least talks with other women. He chooses his work travel over changing from known cheater to good partner, which is the goal of IC for WSes, IMO.

IME, it helped at least a bit to ask myself why I do dysfunctional things, to ask what my goals are for the dysfunctional behavior, to ask if the goal is worthwhile or if there's a better way to achieve the goals.

What do you accomplish for yourself by avoiding conflict? Is that a worthwhile goal? Are there better ways to achieve those goals?

By not demanding your WS live up to his promises to you, are you serving him well? Would it perhaps be better for both of you to require him to leave or step up and keep his promises?

As it is, your H is free to do what he pleases - including dumping you if he finds someone he likes better. My reco: Protect yourself.

Please remember that MC therapists may try to repair the relationship at all costs and shift some of the blame to you. You ARE NOT responsible for his choice to cheat - that was 100% his choice.

he’s not listening to me

That means he doesn't want to hear what you have to say. Either he doesn't value you as a person, or he's an a-hole and wants his own way.

Don't worry about making him feel bad. There are some very nasty STDs/STIs out there that can put YOUR LIFE at risk, and he was willing to do that.

you’re a terrible person and I hate you

That's a manipulation tactic and he's taking advantage of how nice and empathetic you are. Fell into that trap for many years.

Right now, concentrate on you and your healing, as well as your children. Your WH is responsible for his own healing. He's capable of doing that - if he wants to change, he will.

What do you accomplish for yourself by avoiding conflict? Is that a worthwhile goal? Are there better ways to achieve those goals?

By not demanding your WS live up to his promises to you, are you serving him well? Would it perhaps be better for both of you to require him to leave or step up and keep his promises?

I don't accomplish anything for myself, other than I don't feel bad about making other people feel bad, but obviously I'm stuck swimming in my own bad feelings then. I've tried to say 'You need to do this or you need to leave', but I just can't get him to leave in a way that I can deal with. He gets depressed, I worry about erratic behaviour because of it and how that would affect the kids. If I thought he would give me peace and be okay, we would have already separated I think.

We've gone over that conversation loads of times where I lay down the boundaries and it never ends well and I get so tired by the conversations I give in because I don't have the energy in me to deal with them. And he also points out the good things he's doing and then I feel bad for not appreciating that enough.

There are some very nasty STDs/STIs out there that can put YOUR LIFE at risk, and he was willing to do that.

I believe this aspect will haunt me forever, I think about it often, how could he do that? I don't know how he could even look me in the eye afterwards, let alone touch me.

Right now, concentrate on you and your healing, as well as your children.

How do I do this while he's still around? He genuinely expects me to be nice and attentive all the time because 'we're trying', but obviously I have a lot of bad days and I don't want to speak to him and again, I get the 'you don't love me, you hate me'. I struggle to concentrate on anything else. I've tried to pick up old hobbies I'd abandoned, I don't have much of a social life because I also have the kids. I just feel like I've completely lost myself and I'm stuck in this awful thought cycle that I can't get out of because my heads always in detective mode, trying to work out if he's lying again or if he lied before and so on. It's a horrible way to live.

Wanted to add, I’ve been looking at the dates he’s away next year, although he doesn’t have them all yet, and I’m now thinking of asking him to take a year out from it. I can already guess his reaction to that but my reasoning is that we then have a year to try MC and a year for him to be at home focusing on fixing what he’s broken if he’s that determined to stay together. I feel like they could advertise his role as a temporary twelve month position and have it open for him to return afterwards.
Does this seem reasonable?

If I can add another piece of advice.

Right now YOU need to be driving this train towards reconciliation. You should make YOUR needs top priority - otherwise you cannot heal.

Unfortunately too many cheaters think "ok I’m busted BUT I’m not going to do X or Y or Z". That mentality in thinking their life will go on as usual is like a knife to the betrayed. They should understand that life as they know it is over.

If you need him to stop traveling for a period of time, it is not negotiable. Period. If he refuses to honor your requests for anything you need, then you need to evaluate whether you can HAPPILY reconcile and rebuild trust.

I want to add my opinion that often it is not the affair that kills the marriage, but the behavior of the cheater after discovery if the affair(s) that does.

If you need access to his phone or computer, you should get it. Too bad if the cheater does not like it. And if the cheater refuses, it’s because they still have something to hide IMO.

I want to add my opinion that often it is not the affair that kills the marriage, but the behavior of the cheater after discovery if the affair(s) that does.

Yes! This! I have actually said to him that a lot of his behaviour in those first few months (probably a bit longer) absolutely disgusted me and I find a lot of that harder to get over than the cheating itself.

You’re right, I need to find some strength to toughen up and demand what I need.

Something tipped me over the edge earlier. I needed to use his phone for something, he was asleep but I woke him and said I needed his phone and he gave it to me but I walked out of the room with it. I wasn’t planning on snooping, I genuinely needed to use it for something, and I know he deletes stuff he doesn’t want me to see anyway. He got out of bed so fast! Stood right next to me until I was done with it. I didn’t say anything because all the kids were there.

I’m working on writing out what I want and expect, but I don’t know. I don’t think I actually have the strength for separation right now if I’m completely honest and I’m kind of worried that he’ll give up this stuff, not that I think he will, and it still won’t be enough for me.

You sound so much like me that it hurts, torturedpoet! It takes time to gain the inner strength to make non-neogtiable demands. I lasted 2 years and 4 ddays. I made those demands at last today and asked for separation. Some of the most successful R stories seem to be the ones where the WS was kicked out for a while. They need to really feel the consequences of their actions. It is completely awful for the BS, for the children, and anyone else in that orbit, but getting it all out in open can shake loose the last of the delusions the WS is operating under. *You* have to stop being afraid of him leaving. It is not easy! Believe me, I know.

Based on what you've written, I think you're on the path to arriving at the same conclusion. Yes, you will feel horrible about causing him pain because you are a kind and empathetic person. You will also feel horrible about causing your children pain. If you want to shelter them and don't mind a cover story (tell them dad's on a very long trip or something), then you can try that for a while to spare the kids. But I can almost guarantee you that kicking your WS out will accomplish a lot more than being nice.

I've recently been listening to a concept album that's a musical interpretation of The Odyssey, and there's a bit in there that I've been thinking about a lot lately: "You are far too nice. Mercy has a price. Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves."

I suggest reading about co-dependence. I think it will resonate with you, and if it does, you have a roadmap to getting healthy. 'Resonate' means 'see yourself' or 'emphatically refuse to see yourself'.

A WS who expects the WS to be nice is not a good candidate for R, yet you expect yourself to be nice because of the minimal things he does some of the time. If co-dependence doesn't resonate, read about the 'Drama Triangle'.

A piece of feedback. You describe a WS who doesn't look like a good partner to me. That's how I read your words. Are you aware that your words can be read as pretty damning?

You say the payoff for you is, 'I don't feel bad about making other people feel bad, but obviously I'm stuck swimming in my own bad feelings then....' Those are 2 pretty powerful payoffs, except that you don't make other people feel bad (they do it to themselves), and it can be pretty comfortable, but really delf-harming, to swim in one's own bad feelings. BTDT - still do, sometimes, but recognizing it helps me get back to authenticity, solving problems, and feeling good about myself and life.

Your messages gave me the push and courage I needed to put my foot down.

I told him he hadn't grasped the severity of the situation and that we're walking a fine line right now and it could fall either way depending on how much work he's willing to put into this. I told him that he's lucky I'm even considering giving this another go at all, and that I'd be willing to give it another year if he took a year out from travelling for work and we go to MC, and he really knuckles down and does the work.
I don't have an answer yet from him yet and he leaves for a work trip tomorrow so it looks like we'll talk again when he gets back.
He didn't say no, but he also didn't say yes either. I know he doesn't want to leave, but I wonder about his reasons for not wanting to leave quite often. I think he'll say no to taking a year out of travelling, but I'll just have to wait and see now.

I wish I could just leave sometimes, without giving him so many chances. And I wish he wouldn't take the chances I've given him so far for granted.

I read something the other day that said 'Show a man you'll stay with him through anything and he'll put you through everything' and I think that's exactly what's happened here. I've stayed with him through too much and just dusted myself off and gotten on with it, rug sweeping champion over here. I know I need to draw a line under this if he doesn't agree to what I want, I just hope I have the strength to do so if that's what happens.

I wish I could just leave sometimes, without giving him so many chances. And I wish he wouldn't take the chances I've given him so far for granted.

Why can't you? What is stopping you from making decisions for your own benefit?

As long as he knows he can do whatever he wants and you will continue to draw lines in the sand, nothing will change.

What can help you find your voice?

I think there are many reasons I can’t bring myself to do it just yet, main one being the kids.

I feel like I’m not ready to deal with the aftermath of a separation.

And there’s this stupid little bit of hope that if I can get him to understand, he’ll actually wise up and make the changes.

I know if I heard this story from someone else, I’d advise them to leave. But knowing that’s probably the best thing to do and actually doing it are two different things. I don’t feel ready to give up yet. And I often get frustrated with myself about that.

Repeating what NTV says:

Based on what you've said, I'd be suspicious of him cheating again too.

His actions, as described, don't reflect someone earnestly trying to change and keep their relationship.

I'd definitely advise you to continue being cautious here.

I'm sorry this happened to you and wish you any strength you believe yo

u need (and any clarity you need for your eyes).

I grew up with two cheating parents - screwed up my perception of reality. Just ONE cheating parent will affect the family dynamic. How is this family life affecting your kids?

Suggest you start a savings account for yourself. Go see a lawyer and find out what life looks like if you make a decision to stop allowing hubby to disrespect you, your children, and your matrimonial vows.

Read SISSON's post regarding co-dependency again.

Suggest also you see your physician and provide your sexual scenario so a long-term plan for your continued heath can be plotted.

Last suggestion - steel yourself to find out he is still cheating.

I forgot this: check into the fear vs reality thread in the D/S (Divorce/Separation forum here. You're likely to find it enlightening and encouraging.

In stating what you want, you've taken a good step toward living a good life. You don't control your H, but you can read his response. If he agrees to your terms, great - R is possible. If he doesn't, great - R is virtually impossible. You don't have to like the 2nd option, but it's better to know what you're dealing than to wonder about it.

I actually already have a plan in place for separation and feel like I could manage financially. I have also requested my work hours be changed after Christmas so I can do school hours and be available for all drop offs and pick ups if he moves out (which has been granted).

As for the kids, they don't know that he cheated. They obviously knew that something happened at the time but we just said we were having 'adult' problems and weren't getting along very well at the moment. We have managed to keep things calm and 'normal' while the kids are around for months though, and I think they've forgotten that there was any issue.

He's away this weekend but when we talked on the phone earlier he was talking about future plans together (we haven't discussed anything that I said since I said it because we haven't had the time and agreed to put it on hold until for the weekend) so I don't know if that means he's going to agree to what I want or if it's just another example of him not understanding the damage that's been done and thinking that this will blow over.

I'm going to spend some time tonight reading through what has been suggested here. Codependency is an issue, I am aware of it, but haven't done much to change it really so I will do some reading on that.

I'm trying to mentally prepare myself for him disagreeing to what I've said and having to pull the plug. I don't want to, but I know I'll have to. I don't think he'll make it easy though and I think I'll struggle to deal with that.