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@Thumos

I do believe vows mean different things to different people. The important answer, IMO, is what it means to you and your WW. If her actions aren't matching her words, and if her words/actions aren't matching what matters to you in your marriage, then I think you have a better gauge of your status.

As for why she'd say something like that, IMO she sounded very disconnected and checked out. It's her problem, not yours. There's nothing sanctimonious about regarding your vows as meaningful, I think she just felt like shit about herself and externalized that onto you. Not your problem whatsoever.

1. Last night my WW saw that I was looking at the reconciliation area here on SI - I showed her I was looking at positive reconciliation stories. I had agreed to pull back from SI several months but I never agreed to disengage completely. my WW has basically given me the cold shoulder all day

Kind of interesting Thumos that she has an attitudinal view of SI, but has she dived deeply enough into it to see what you're seeing? What's further interesting is that she's hovering close enough to an ideal candidate, but consistently falls short of being an unquestioned reconciliation candidate and her view of SI symbolizes this.

The unquestioned candidate would nervously, but courageously grant consent for you to pursue what comforts you. Even if you're edgy following and participating in others threads, there's some comfort you can receive in commiserating with others whose experience mirrors yours. If not comforting, there's somewhat of a kinsman-ship that's realized by members who are part of a like-experienced community. You're part of this community because of her. It's no different than a group that supports battered women, or AA, etc.

2. My WW Says that SI is anti reconciliation and that it only depresses me and renews my anger to read here. I’ve asked her to consider interacting here with other WS but she refuses

Again, her thoughts and expressions are centered around her feelings, not yours.

3. the failed polygraph in December was an absolute shit - show. My WW tried to change the questions, succeeded in dropping a question, and insulted the credibility of the examiner (a retired former agent agent with state bureau of investigation). She cried and begged and wailed and brought her sister along for additional drama and hostility to me for something I Had been asking for for three years. She still failed the poly and now says it was bc of her anxiety and that she’s telling me the truth

I almost wish you had told her from the beginning you will NOT make a decision or divorce her based on her coming forth with truth, and then change up after hearing it. Of course, you never knew the lengths she'd go to conceal things.

Although you never felt her affair was a frequent physical one,(and I believe this as well per your posts) I sometimes wonder if it was considering the strength of commitment and never coming close to wavering.

Further revelation is not even a consideration and her strategy is simply to outlast your pursuit of it and eventually enough time and space will separate the affair from today, tomorrow and forthcoming years.

4. Along with the failed polygraph I also I know for sure without a doubt that my WW brought another man over to our house for the express purpose of unprotected sex, that she played house with him and our kids by having him over for extended dinners while I was away on work trips, that she discussed with the OM how she "didn't even care" if I found out and chortled and chuckled about the sex they had, that she gaslighted me to make me think I'd falsely accused her, that she encouraged me to think I was paranoid and needed professional psychiatric help, that she invoked an in-home separation from me during the affair, that she trickle truthed me and blameshifted after D-Day and tried to get me to accept a line that I was 'sexually immature' about her having 'meaningless sex' with another man, that she buried evidence, destroyed evidence, refused transparency and refused to take an STD test or write out a timeline or submit to a polygraph for years. And that she finally failed a polygraph on the question of whether she was telling me the truth about the affair.

This #4 point is why you're strongly perched atop a limbo state and constant contemplation. Whether written in paragraph, bullet point or outline form, it reads the same. Male or female members wince while reading this. Men in particular, are livid, me included, no matter how frequent they're read. These facts aren't going to go away and the only way they can be manageable for you long term is for you to gain the satisfaction of her telling you what she doesn't want to tell you.

It's difficult coming to terms and reaching acceptance as personal digs undermining you as a man were shared between them. I think you'd have difficulty, but may be able to work through things with more confessions from her and closing the gap between being an "ideal" or an "unquestioned" remorseful wife, fully worthy of reconciliation. This requires walking the plank and back with a scarf around her eyes and sharks hovering below.

You've been here long enough to clearly see the separation that exists between your wife and Ms.Wallop, MsSouthAfrican, HikingOut and other repentful and remorseful wives, whose determination isn't capped off from doing certain thing. There's a couple of strong divisions that lie between the supremely remorseful wives and one's who aren't. They.......

1) Feel and experience the fear for their marriage, but the pain they see and feel imposed onto their husbands exceeds the pain they feel for themselves. Hence, they drive through their own fear to relieve the pain inflicted upon their husbands. In turn, their actions tell their husbands, their remorse is unmistakable.

2) They've released control of the outcome. They've pushed through the fear of losing everything and prioritized their husband's wishes above everything, themselves included. In a sense, they're matching the risk taken prior to the affair. What I mean by that is they risked losing everything by having the affair and is willing to equally risk losing their marriage, to regain their marriage. This is what I believe you are wishing for, above other things. This will give you peace of mind and the olive branch that she's weakly dangling out to you, for you to grab and say, I feel you.

Thumos, I have never thought that your wife is a safe candidate for reconciliation. She is still lying to you. You know it, she knows it, and SI knows it, which is why she's so angry to see you here. She thought that your absence meant that she was going to be able to rugsweep everything that happened and move forward with a clean slate. She's afraid of the destructive power of a bunch of strangers on the internet, because she feels you can be swayed by outside opinion, and the only viewpoint she can afford to have swaying you is her own.

Bear in mind, I'm not making these proclamations from my holy mountaintop. I know a liar when I see one because I'm such an experienced liar. Of course, your situation is a bit unusual. You told her that you would stay with her if she failed her polygraph but divorce her if she voluntarily confessed. She resisted the poly because she didn't actually believe that you'd allow that. Why would you schedule a test to determine her honesty and then ignore the results? But in the end, you did -- she failed it, and there were no consequences, so now there is a 0% chance she will ever tell you the truth. In fact, she regrets having admitted to the A in the first place, because now she realizes she could have gotten away with accepting no blame at all.

I'm not saying it's easy for her either. Whenever you start asking questions again, she's afraid her house of cards will collapse. She thought she had the upper hand when she cheated, but for the last four years, the shoe has been on the other foot. You could blow her world up at any moment. And to prevent that, she has to keep doubling down on her lies -- because again, you've told her that if she admits what is clearly true (that she slept with AP more than once), then her marriage is over. The fact that she created the situation she's in doesn't make it less stressful. It's like a horror movie for her as well as you; she keeps thinking the A is buried, and then the corpse claws its way to the surface.

The only way this changes is if she believes that you'll absolutely leave if she keeps lying and might stay if she tells you the truth. But this is a reversal of your prior stance, and she's solidified her own belief that no good can come of honesty. It's hard to see how you can change that narrative. All you can do is decide if it's a deal breaker for you.

Thumos,

Yes to everything BSR said in her post. She just cut through the B.S. for you.

The only way this changes is if she believes that you'll absolutely leave if she keeps lying and might stay if she tells you the truth.

This is sooo important and it played out exactly like that for me.

I was not a remorseful WW after DDay. I hurt inside because my husband was in pain and I totally ignored any thinking of that during my A, but like 98% of my thinking, as a mess as it was, was all about me. I was very selfish and all about self preservation and my own pity party while trying to minimize the severity and basically just wrapped up in my own world which just blew up. My BH did the smartest thing he could when he said if I tell him the truth and answer all his questions, no promises, but there’s something to build on. But if I lie, he’s gone. Period. I wasn’t heroic or remorseful when I told him everything. It was a calculation. I know that sounds cold but I thought my M was over. My only chance was if I threw myself at the mercy of the court, so to speak, and confessed everything.

Right now, in your WW’s thinking, there are no benefits to being honest. You’ll leave if she tells you the truth. But how can you R without it? So you’re stuck. Unless you change your position and say this isn’t working for you and that without complete honesty you’re leaving and that you’ll ask her again and then she needs to take a polygraph again to verify that she told you the truth but if she fails again, then it’s over. Without that, I don’t see why your WW would ever have an incentive to be honest with you.

Thumos,

I want to add that what Mrs. W, and BSR is saying is really what I was trying to say, I just didn't do it with any real clarity.

I think where I was aiming was, it depends on what you define as safe.

If "safe" means won't cheat again, I don't know the answer but she could be that.

But, whether you can R without knowing more details/full truth, I don't believe you can do that either. You can stay married under those circumstances, and you might have some level of success, but she will never rebuild trust and you will never get to full R.

I stated my thoughts about you coming here and learning that you were stuffing your feelings and she could no longer rugsweep had more clarity. My mind was all over the place yesterday as I answered your question, because I was really trying to leave it to you to decide "what is safe" but I should have directly answered your question better. To me "not cheating again" is bare minimum. I think I was just trying to share what the personal work should look like. Honesty is also a "bare minimum" It sounds like she checks the box where she is trying to give her all in the relationship, but she has to meet all bare minimums AND do the personal work, and on that my personal opinion is she isn't near there yet. I am sorry for being ambiguous yesterday. Reading these ladies eloquent replies showed me just how unclear I was being.

Thumos,

No one can give you the magic answer of should you stay or go. Only you can. And staying on the fence and torturing yourself is a choice too, and one that you are presently making.

Earlier in this thread I made a point about actions being more important than words. That holds true for both WS and BS.

The other day a young robin flew into my window and was sitting in the grass with one wing out and clearly in pain. I was going to break its neck to end its pain. My MIL would have none of it and tried to give it water and moved it over to a planter to be out of the sun. She didn't try to get it vet help. Next day it died. Was it worse for me to want to end its misery or to leave it to suffer and die a slow death? You need to make a choice and choices have consequences for all involved.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 2:06 PM, July 22nd (Wednesday)]

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies. Really useful perspective.

It's funny, before the lies that led to separation and an affair I never allowed myself to promise anything. I was quite adamant about promises being made only to be broken.

Having gone through a year of intensive therapy and years of introspection I can easily make the promise that I would never be unfaithful. I make my decision daily to be faithful, to be thankful for my wife and my family and myself (and the bigger things that exist beyond us). I make this promise to myself, not to anyone else - though I share it with my wife.

It's not a promise that our marriage will work, it's not a promise that we'll have a happy ending and it's not a promise that life will be easy from now on. It's a promise to be faithful. To be honest. To work out our issues to the best of our abilities [together]. Which is, to be married.

****

To Thumos; I've read your story as you've unfolded it (mostly - it's quite long). There's no person here that cheated that can give you an answer about your wife. No one here is her. And, contrary to popular belief here, there really isn't such a thing as the "wayward mind". It's just people being people. For a variety of reasons and a host of lifelong cuts and bruises.

Reconciliation is a hard gift to give. It's an unfair gift. It must be given from a place of great pain but for the reason of loving your partner. And it's a leap of faith at a time where trust is non-existent. My wife chose to give it because of the circumstances and of who we are. I think it's the right choice for us. So does she.

Is it the right choice for you considering your circumstances (ie. everything that led into and out of the affair)?

Is it the right choice considering who your wife is?

Do you want to be married to her?

Does she want to be married to you?

If yes then she needs to fix herself (in fact even if "no" is the answer I would say she should fix herself for her own well-being). And she needs to know that the onus is on her to do the work. She fucked up royally. And she needs to take responsibility for her actions.

And then you both need to work together on your marriage (as I said, not fair) - or, it's not going to work.

****

So, I don't have advice really. But I can tell you two things that my therapist once told me that, eventually, I understood.

"Figure out where you want to build and build there. Don't worry about where you're building to".

"Love is an ability. You've loved before, you can love again".

****

Wish you nothing but good luck and love, man.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 4:42 PM, July 22nd (Wednesday)]

Question for WS. When you first had sex. Did you plan it or did it just happen?

I planned it, and I lied about planning it. I made it sound like it was practically a misunderstanding, where heavy making out got carried too far in the moment. In reality, we booked a room with the express intent of having sex. I was too ashamed to admit that. It was partly fear of hurting my BH, but even more, it was a reluctance to face my own depravity.

And was you thinking about the BS? Like right before you "stuck it in" did you know you was about to commit adultery?

I was fully aware that it was a betrayal. That scared me on one level, but it also served to make the decision more surreal. I never thought I was capable of cheating on my BH. It was like watching myself through glass. It was the way I imagine I'd feel if someone convinced me to try skydiving. In that moment of standing in front of the open door to an airplane, I'd have to be in denial of the danger of jumping thousands of feet in order to pry my fingers off the door frame. I knew there were potential consequences, but I didn't really believe they'd happen.

How did u move forward? What did u feel like after the sex was over?

I felt stunned, and in a weird way, relieved. The deed was done, so I didn't have to struggle anymore with whether I was actually going to do it. I couldn't rewrite history (or so I thought; actually, I turned out to be very good at it, even within my own head).

How did you go home to your BS and look them in the eye?

Even now, I can't explain this. I can't remember it. We were in a long distance relationship during the A, and I have literally blanked out an entire three day visit where I must have lied through my teeth the whole time. OM and I hadn't had sex yet at that point, but we were already way over the line. I had plenty to hide.

Did u know this would kill them? Did u care? Did u feel horrible?

I honestly thought he would be more angry than hurt. I was completely unprepared for the level of devastation. I did feel horrible.

If yes then why did u do it again?

Self-centeredness and addiction to ego kibble. I didn't cheat again after D-Day, in the sense that I never did anything physical with OM again or made any more romantic declarations. But I was one of those toxic WS who refused NC and thought we could just "stay friends." It was decades before I really absorbed what I had really done to my BH. To my enduring shame, I thought BH had "won," and that because OM "lost," he was the one who deserved my sympathy.

Questions for WH who have or are reconciling:

How can you do grand gestures in your affair like fly the OW out to San Fran and an fancy dinner, and then once the affair is found out dump them and reconcile with your wife?

Also did you ever have to pump yourself up to be with the AP who wasn't really your type but you loved the ego stroke you got so much you kept it going. I don't get ANY of THIS FOG CRAP!

Mickie,

I am not a WH, I hope it's okay if I take a stab at this because we don't have a ton of WH's that come over to ICR.

How can you do grand gestures in your affair like fly the OW out to San Fran and an fancy dinner, and then once the affair is found out dump them and reconcile with your wife?

Here is the part that can be mistaken. His grand gestures were not about her, they were still about HIM!

Allow me to expand on that. When we are having an affair, the AP is only an audience to our own self adulation. People think we get our kibbles from the AP. I think we set ourselves up as someone we wish we could be, and it's a cartoon version of it. So, if your husband wanted to believe he was bigger than his britches or prince charming, he did this to prove to himself he was. This was not because SHE inspired him to do it. It was because she didn't know he wasn't this person. The AP is the audience that is buying this hook, line, and sinker, and giving their applause. The more applause the more it confirmed to your H that he really was Mr. Big Shot, Mr. Prince Charming.

But, that's all fantasy bullshit, of course Mr. Prince charming isn't fucking around on his wife!

Does this help at all? I hope so. We have to stop looking at what we are doing for the AP having anything to do with the AP...it's just different selfish acts we are propping up ourselves on trying to confirm we are this person that we aren't.

For me this did help me in knowing there are aspects of a person that I wished I was. Maybe your husband does wish he was more romantic. He would have had to get vulnerable with you to show that and be accountable on his progress. It was easier for me to pretend to be those things rather than actually work and struggle to be those things in front of my husband. After my affair was over, I gave myself a hard look and realized I would feel better if I worked on feeling younger, sexier and more vibrant. So, I did work on that, in front of my husband. It was far more vulnerable than just pretending it was true.

Hikingout-

I love that you are here and participate. My husband said it wasn’t a big deal. You flew a bitch out to San Francisco on business and it wasn’t a big deal?!?!?

Somehow you explaining it gives me pause and consider that people can go through the efforts and it be only about them and not the AP..... and not a diss to the BS.

It’s mind boggling!

Thank you so much! You help me. My husband needs to send you a gift card to your favorite restaurant! Lol

Are the only WSs here the ones that stayed or fence rode until they ended their affair? I haven't seen any WS stories here from those who left their BS for the OP and later regretted it.

A question for WS:

In the early days following Dday, but whilst WS was still firmly within the denial stages, he would effectively rewrite the history of our marriage and during his less sensitive moments tell me things like ‘he hadn’t loved me for a long time’.

Whilst I understand this is a common theme amongst the waywards, I assume to make them feel good (?) better about their cheating.

I wondered why they felt the need to rewrite quite so much of the marriage history, for example: My WH whom I have been with for 25 years chose to inform me that the only reason he took me on our first trip away was to see if he was going to break up with me or not. The trip was within the early stages of our relationship, many years prior to this affair.

This in addition to being told he hadn’t loved me for a long time, has made finding special memories free from the affair difficult.

Why do waywards look back at the entirety of their relationships to find excuses for their short comings? How do they explain these lies to themselves when they are so obviously inaccurate, in my case, I continually asked WH why he stayed with me for so long if he had been so out of love and unhappy for so much of our relationship?

Thoughts?

Hi TimeforHelp,

I had an off and on affair for three years. Been married for 33. I've been NC for three years.

As I look back on the depths of my A I tried every day to convince myself I was a good person who made good choices. I tried to use logic to explain my wayward behavior to myself. As I self-identified as a "good person" I felt I must have some logical explanation as to why I was sleeping with this other person. In my mind I tried to view it as this wonderful new world I entered that was some kind of weird upgrade from committed monogamy. I felt wrapped in a blanket that was my insular world of the affair where I was able to justify my shitty behavior. I could see a wayward like your husband saying just about anything to convince himself he's not a horrible person. That's very wayward thinking from a wayward still deep in the A. I would try my best to not believe his marriage rewriting. Clearly he fell for you for a reason. Hopefully he will get his head out of his ass in due time.

For the WS tbat had an EA and PA. Did you make up in your head that your marriage was bad? Me and my husband was going through a rough patch. I was having some seasonal depression because of where we lived and he traveled all the time for work. But it wasnt anything we hadnt dealt with before. His 20 year old brother was killed tragically a year before and he had lost a bunch of weight. I feel like that was the problem more than our marriage. I go back and read our text and he tells me he loves me and he want to go travel with me and experience things with me. But he was with her. I dont get it. His affair lasted 4 months last year. I just found out in May because she contacted me. He said he should have asked for a divorce before starting the affair. But I font underatand why he didn't ask for one after either. I asked him and he doesnt have an answer. Any help is appreciated!

For both Ascott and Timeforhelp-

Jonathan Haidt’s “The Righteous Mind” explores similar questions, looking more at moral response to religious and political disagreement/polarization. But he first establishes an understanding of the relationship between sentiment and reason:

All humans experience emotional (“moral”) perceptions in real time, and as Haidt articulates, then reason intervenes. The notion of confirmation bias comes into play at this point- The cheater felt something and acted on it. We all are far more comfortable asking “Can I?” believe something I would like to believe, as opposed to asking “Must I?” believe something I would rather not.

So the choice (occurring in near real time but then entrenching, cementing) is “Can I believe I am the victim of a ‘bad/failing/loveless marriage’?” or “Must I believe I committed a mortal sin and acted out of pure selfishness?”

Further, even when presented with evidence, people will instinctively stop pursuing evidence to counter their own assessments/hypotheses. If given a handful of scenarios, the average person will selectively focus on those scenarios that support their perspective.

The motivation to R can be a powerful tool to examine the validity of this rewriting, but it won’t work without a receptive mind.

In my experience I can see this- I latched onto a handful of times that BW’s depression “interfered” with what I felt were “reasonable” family affairs, and extrapolated that to become an “always” statement.

WS is stuck. I’m at the end of my rope. this is kind of long but please bear with me as I want to give you some idea of what I’ve been through and how hard I tried. This is an excerpt from a journal that will explain that:

“From that day, despite my pain, questions, and anger, all I wanted to do was forgive. Not forgive and forget; those who forget can’t grow. I wanted to use it for good. I had messed up myself in life, I knew what it was like to be so consumed with self that what I might be doing to other people never even crossed my mind, to be in need of forgiveness knowing Ii couldn’t undo the damage. I knew the humility of that position and the gratitude that comes as a result of someone continuing to love me despite me having hurt them. I had to forgive if I had any understanding at all of love. I couldn’t imagine life without him and believed we could get through anything. I thought I would extend forgiveness to him, as evidence of my love and growth, he would see and accept it, let the humbling moment change him as it had me, and we’d have the better than “before.”

Enter 3 years of trying to show and tell him this in any way I could think of. I had some emotions to work through, but all I wanted was to move forward, to give him the same gift I’d been given, all he needed to do was recognize that. Yet he told me within two weeks that I was never going to forgive him, and decided from that point forward that’s how it would always be. He overlooked gestures I made to show him and he said he didn’t believe me when I told him. He told me that he needed to feel “continuously forgiven”, like that was my job, but said that my trauma was my problem, or worse, me trying to punish him. He took my attempts to fix things that HE said were issues in our relationship as criticism. When I tried to go to him when I was triggered or had a question, he said I “used him as a punching bag.” The ways I tried to love him, he took for granted, but every negativity in life was my fault. When I tried to get him to see his own attitude and perceptions were part of the problem, that they created a cycle of fortunetelling and confirmation bias that made it impossible for me to do anything right, he refused to consider that he might be wrong. I was somehow the cause of his bad attitude too. He said I was always bringing it up, but he was the one who connected any issue we had back to the infidelity.

He could tear me down and hurt me with impunity when he felt hurt, and i made him do it, but when I said “hey I’m hurt“ I was “always complaining about him.” In his mind he’s made me into a person I’ve never been. He’s said I’m vengeful, manipulative, unhappy. In my deepest pain and anxiety, he saw hatred and accusation. I wasn’t allowed to express any negative emotion or I was holding things over his head. When I would plead with him for understanding and comfort, he would accusing me of wanting to hold on to the pain. Nothing I did or said could break through his cognitive bias. I know with every fiber of my being that everything I wanted for my marriage, for him, for us, was good. I want him to believe that, not just for me, but so he could live life free from the pain and shame and fear and have peace when he thinks back on his mistakes. But when I suggested that maybe he hadn’t forgiven himself he laughed it off and said he was trying but I won’t let him.”

So....

We’ve been to counseling, he never took their advice. We even did affair recovery. That seemed to be working at first, but once again his perception suddenly flipped into persecution mode. AR wanted him to live the rest of his life in constant contrition and I was trying to use this to have power over him. What I see is a continuation of the typical wayward thinking. what I don’t know is whether this means that he is actively still a wayward or he’s just stuck, and my doubts in that regard compound our issues.

He did pass a polygraph 6/18 that he had never had any physical sexual contact with anyone else since we married, but he guilt tripped me endlessly for asking him to take it (despite the fact that he’d lied about what he did do) and berated me all the way home afterwards about how I should have believed him. It also verified that he hadn’t engaged in any of his previous behaviors since d-day, but his whole entitled attitude undermined any safety the polygraph gave me.

It hasn’t been all bad. He has had moments where he’s given me credit. But the next time he gets mad he takes them all back again. He’s made this all about him from the beginning. He can make demands and criticize, but when I do, he’s being persecuted. He perceives animosity on my part where there is none. He makes assumptions that create conflict and refuses to back down from them. If there was anything else I could do, I would do it, but I’m on the verge of leaving. I told him yesterday that if my presence in His life was always going to make him feel unforgiven and criticized maybe the best thing I could do would be to get out of it. That it was the last thing I would want to do but I hate the idea of us both suffering because I can’t let go. Even this he made about him being wronged. What is his problem? Is there anything else I can do? I don’t want to leave, emotionally as well as practically it would be extremely difficult for me as I have been totally dependent on him for nearly 20 years. I have always been one of those lifers when it came to marriage but it’s getting to the point that hope is very thin.

Those who had an EA- did you know it was an affair? Or did you just think this was a super close friend? STBX will not admit his friendship is an EA. He admits to affair with OW 1 which was physical But He won’t admit that the EA was an affair.

Does he not know, or is he still lying I’m wondering

Aintgonnalose-

Is he in IC? It seems to me that’s the only way he’s gonna deviate from the script you describe. I was this way 2-3 months after DDay, when I had broken NC and was keeping it a secret. I don’t know if he’s got more secrets, but I DO know I jerked myself out of that mentality soon afterwards.

So the only thing I can think is that you ask him to get himself right with the help of an IC.