SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ouch. I know that the posts have to be tough to read, but they really are looking out for your best interests. They are not all projecting their personal issues onto you.

The only time it would ever come out would be if a real rock bottom is hit. I keep thinking after each incident that "this one" is rock bottom. And we keep going deeper and deeper into an abyss. So it's obviously never been hit. But there's still a small voice in me that wants to hold out hope that this one, this time, as far as it's gone, this is rock bottom. Time would tell I guess.

I will say this whenever people talk about 'rock bottom'--They have no effing idea what rock bottom is UNTIL it is well in the rearview mirror. EVERY basement has a potential lower level. It is not until one has climbed up out the pit can they realize how deep it was. My wife was in psychiatric watch, and one would think that would be the bottom. Until we were shown otherwise.

I will also say this about optimism--that is EXACTLY what it is....being optimistic about something that is UNoptimistic. Can your wife return to the faithful one from many years past? Sure. Can she even ramp up her wayward behaviors more than she has in the last 5 years. Yup. The only one who can make the changes is herself, and you simply have no idea. You have to deal with the person who is standing in front of you, and right now, that person is very damaged. This is where you have to hold yourself accountable for your choices going forward, because you know(for the most part) what you are dealing with. If you choose to stay and try, then that is the right answer if you choose to do so with a clear and conscious mind. If you stay due to fears, you still have to acknowledge that this is YOUR CHOICE....although not the healthiest one.

I will end it on this note, pertaining to your wife's priorities--If she was truly concerned about how she has hurt you, and wants you to heal, she would set you free, so you can make the choice that seems best for you. She wouldn't be begging for another chance--the snot-bubbling teary cries are NOT for you....although they often feel good to hear. It makes us think that we mean a lot to them, and we are their highest priority. It's not the case, though. What it really shows is that their wants supersede ours, when it should be the other way around.

I desperately wanted to hear more optimism.

Here you go...

You should be able to easily get custody...she's an addict and suicidal to the point where she's in a facility for it. She also an adulterer.

Being a single dad with custody is the ultimate chick magnet. Been there, done that, brother. It was a lot of fun. Been with my real wife for 17 years now, married and so very happy.

There is life after infidelity. There is a great life after infidelity.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 9:54 AM, Saturday, October 8th]

Here’s the aspect of this I couldn’t get past with my STBXH; after the first DD you can look back and see the signs. You go to counseling, read books and work on the relationship and things are going well. All those tell tale signs from the past are gone and you think you have a good marriage but it’s all a lie. Your spouse just learned how to be a better actor.

How can you ever trust in your relationship again? The internal radar that developed after the first R won’t work with a person this deceptive.

I’m very sorry you’re in this place and that your WW has even dragged your children into this.

All those tell tale signs from the past are gone and you think you have a good marriage but it’s all a lie. Your spouse just learned how to be a better actor.

That's what I was thinking. I'm also stuck on the fact that at this point he doesn't know actually know who his wife's current paramour is. Her drug compromised mental health has blown all thought of the revelation by her "flirting only" partner. 1345Marine needs to take her phone to someone who can retrieve it all right now and get his attorney ready to file.

[This message edited by NotInMyLife at 10:54 PM, Saturday, October 8th]

Hi Marine

I have a lot to say but not a lot of time. So this message will be short.

I want to and feel like I deserve to be someone's "guy, one and only, that dude for her" and be able to safely give that same level of loyalty to another imperfect, but faithful woman.

I want you to know, that you can help her recover from her various diseases and disorders (drug, sexual, psychological) without having to stay her husband.

I personally see that as separate things. With what she has done, regardless of her demons, it is my belief she doesn’t deserve to be your spouse. She broke every vow in the book. The vows you took are long destroyed and thrown away and taken to the dump. The marriage you thought you had is no longer.

You have a history. You have children. That’s it.

But that doesn’t mean you can’t help her recover from what she is bow going through. But remember you have lots and lots of healing to do yourself. You each have lots of work to do.

I’m not saying you have to rush to divorce. But if it were me in your shoes, and I’m sorry you are in them, I would be going with divorce as the default position right now, but let her know that’s currently secondary to each of you healing separately from the inflictions you each are currently suffering from.

Do not underestimate what it will take you to recover from infidelity. Focus on that and your kids. That’s it for now and let her know she should be focusing on her journey to recovery.

Talking about your relationship is something for way down the road when you are each in healthier positions.

As for the quote you wrote above, you absolutely deserve that and whatever path you take down the road it needs to be a priority.

Take care.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:26 PM, Saturday, October 8th]

I'm so sorry. I know you must be under so much stress right now, and having her home from the hospital will bring its own stress when you get to that point. I hope your wife is doing well and getting healthy.

There's a lot still being hidden at this point. The only time it would ever come out would be if a real rock bottom is hit. I keep thinking after each incident that "this one" is rock bottom. And we keep going deeper and deeper into an abyss. So it's obviously never been hit.

I don't know that there's any evidence that people release all of their secrets when they hit rock bottom. Certainly taking responsibility and making amends are important if you do decide to move forward. But I think there's a spectrum of truthfulness, and that people who are on the "not truthful" end of the spectrum are not going to start spitting out truth just because they've realized they're really screwed up, just like people who don't have empathy for others aren't going to start weeping compassionately after one big life event. These are both ingrained character/personality traits as well as skills that we practice. It takes a lot to teach a deficient person a new trait. All this is to say . . . don't put your hope in her hitting rock bottom. She will still be unpracticed in the arts of self-awareness and disclosure.

One of the ways that we get through the days of limbo is coming up with some kind of milestone or gesture or marker that will make us feel better. If we could just renew our vows, I would feel better. If she would just admit to everything, I would feel better. I'm not saying these things don't help, but the goalposts keep moving after we get what we were wishing for because nothing external is going to heal our wound.

Be sure not to view her veracity as something she has an absolute handle on. I'm sure there's a large amount of self-delusion and denial going on. She doesn't think, "I'm lying to his face, mwah ha ha." She thinks, "I'm reconciling as well as I can be . . . these little chats with OM are not impacting my marriage at all because I can put them in two separate boxes."

I'm very sorry you're here but glad you are too.

This is gonna sound harsh. Your wife is a serial cheater and a drug addict. Alllll of her "blah blah I'm lonely blah blah felt guilty blah blah bullshit bullshit" is just common cheater speak. She's really nothing unique in that regard. Additionally to being a garden variety cheater and drug addict, she's also involved your children in her infidelity.

I don't typically say this in JFO, but my advice to you is to pull the plug and file. Your ww needs help and you cannot help her. She needs professional help and years of it. You can always stop the divorce if she gets her shit together, but if she can't or won't do that then you need to protect yourself.

I'm so so sorry. You seem like a very kind guy and you don't deserve any of this.

You are young and healthy, and it sounds like you have four amazing kids.

Your wife is a drug addict and serial cheater who didn’t change; who pathologically lied to you through the trauma of a reconciliation that turned out to be completely false. In her case it wasn’t just struggling to let go of or being unwilling to end things with a long term affair partner with whom she was emotionally entangled and had a history; she was also casually flirting for no damn reason. This level of duplicity and deceit and attention seeking and addiction indicates a core level of brokenness and dysfunction that Is unlikely to change.

You love her and care about her and are understandably worried for her. That shows your solidity and integrity as a person. But she is not partner material. Or parent material, at least not right now. Use this time while she’s in the hospital to detach and start divorce and custody proceedings. You can still support her recovery and care about her as the mother of your children and a person with whom you have a lot of history. But she is a terrible, dangerous partner.

So sorry you're going through all of this.

Just chiming in to say that this voyage seems, over and over, to be about the same thing for basically all of us who come here: coming to grips with the truth that cheaters aren't special in their behavior. They really do all tend to act similarly, and they are terribly, terribly predictable.

Most of us seem to come here with the idea that we're gonna get reassurance that things will be okay, and advice on how to turn things around. But it's almost always true that what happens is there's a nagging feeling that you're still getting chumped. And when you go with that skepticism, you find that you are, again and again. And at some point, you decide that waiting on such a person to change means you will wait the rest of your life. You can see the aurora borealis in Florida, but how long can you wait, hoping? And even if you wait, it might never happen.

Like what stevesn said, I think starting the process of divorce is one of the only things that returns your power over yourself and your circumstances. Sure, it's not impossible she'd get things together, but your evidence all points toward that never happening. Like the ancient Stoics said, you can only control yourself and your actions. Taking steps that will improve your life no matter what she does (in the long run -- divorce is hard, even when it's necessary) will help you and the kids in huge ways.

You deserve a life that's as much like what you envision as you can make it.

She is a serial cheater. They rarely get better. Most have to white knuckle their way thru life trying to control their urges. In my opinion the Adderall did not cause her to cheat. It just let the beast that was always there off the chain.

She put your daughter in a crappy position of knowing it was still happening. How many nights did your daughter lie in bed wondering what to do? Mother of the year she is not.

My two cents…get out. And also get primary custody of your children. At the moment she is not a fit mother, and has not been a fit wife for years.

Golden R was right. Honest, hard-working, loving and loyal men are in short supply in this world.

I don’t think it’s been said yet, but BRAVO to you for calling the cops when she threatened suicide. If she genuinely needs help, then she’ll get it. If she was using suicidal threats as a means of manipulating you, then she will think twice before she ever pulls a stunt like that again.

You have given her a million chances to turn herself round and she’s squandered every single one. She’s given you no material with which to rebuild. You know that if she moves her mouth, she’s lying. She’s exposed your daughters to her cheating. She has no impulse control. It also seems that she gets off on the lying, sneaking around, and repeatedly getting with it almost as much as she enjoys sex and flirting.

If you stay married to this woman, you’re going to be spending the rest of your life in a constant state of anxiety, waiting for the other shoe to drop. You’re going to have to keep her under surveillance to maintain even the illusion of security, and she will still try to find ways of sneaking around.

As you said, you will soon be a young empty nester. You are young enough to start a new life. Your daughters are old enough to understand the situation and have a say in their living arrangements. Why waste the quality years you have left on a duplicitous, reckless, and faithless woman?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 12:08 AM, Tuesday, October 11th]

There's been a lot of very solid support here, and some great ideas. I really appreciate the safety. It's hard to update much because I'm really busy with life, but here's a very quick update.

I've decided to file for divorce, which in my state requires a year long separation due to the kids. I've told her that, and she's maintaining that over the course of this year I'll see the work she puts in to save our marriage. I hold out hope that's true, but the last thing I want is to not file and have a year of separation in front of me if something goes awry again or if there's just no work being done at all. I'm going to start the clock, and if by the Grace of God I see some sincere change, then I can stop the process at the end. We'll see how that goes.

One of the requirements that was suggested here, that I think is incredible advice, is to have her inform the AP's wife. Confused, you're not very confused on that one. That's great. That is a condition that needs to happen very soon, in addition to a lot of others that I'm still mulling in my mind.

I'm not trying to sound wishy washy, but what's so incredibly hard about this is that I have a hard time believing that the woman who has been through so many battles with me in the past is truly gone, and that this woman who just lies to me and cheats on me constantly is really her true self. Was it always a lie? I know the answer, and despite what some on here may believe, the answer is a resounding no. There indeed was a different time, and she is the woman who stood by me through all the demons I brought home after combat. The past where she was with me and my rock as my mother died is true. It's not a lie. She really was my rock as I walked that incredibly painful time. We really did hold each other and console and support one another through health struggles of our daughter when she was a toddler. All that's real. If anyone could speak to those thoughts, I'd be grateful. I know I can't be unique in them. Lots of you had to have sincerely good memories of a good person your WS at one time was. And it's so hard to pull the plug on the person who's been with you, you and them against the world, for your entire life (for me anyway, married at 19, together since 15 years old).

Also, what does anyone make of her trying to get caught in the affair to start with? She maintains that for a month and half she was very sincere and all in on us. I am CERTAIN that she intended to get caught and end it with her AP. She left an unprotected, unlocked phone out with a file on it that had the paramour's name and all their text messages. She says that he reached out a month and half into "reconciliation" and that she just faltered. She was lonely, had given up almost all of her friends over the two and a half years with him, and all she had was me and I was ready to leave and threatening to leave regularly. I was raging and going through the ocean of emotion that I'm sure so many here have been through and can relate to. And she gave in. But she had to be somewhat sincere in her desire to end it to start with, right? Why else would you give yourself up like she did?

And finally, the ballfield Dad, I've become convinced that did indeed stop with inappropriate texts. Maybe I just can't process that far ahead yet. I don't know. But right now my primary concern is working through the primary affair partner and trying to come to grips with all of that and her relapse to him that she has confessed became sexual again for a short time and had a lot of history to it. I don't know how to categorize ballfield dad yet. I need to wrap this up, and I sincerely appreciate all the comments and the time people are taking out of their days ot offer encouragment and love.

Not saying your wife was always a liar and cheater. She probably was a great wife and truly your Rock.

But at some point she changed. And the person she became was vastly different from the person she was.

Same is true in my case. My H became someone he certainly was not when we married. Having me behind him and supporting him emboldened him to become flirty. A chick magnet. New found confidence with women.

I hope your marriage survives this rough patch. If not, just Know you tried everything. And if filing for D results in her giving up on the marriage, then she never had the level of commitment she needed to R.

Im still new to this myself, but props for deciding to file. You are doing the right thing. Make sure you are 100% ready to follow through to the end.

Regarding the ballfield dad, to be honest that parts concerns me just as much as the main AP. Even if it hadn't gotten physical (YET) Those texts were NOT jokes. Who develops that type of relationship while watching your children practice a sport? It's not a normal harmless thing. To me it speaks to a compulsion and doing things like that so casually tells me how far gone she was/is. Obviously you are right to first work on making sure you understand the full extent of the more intense PA, but I think the rest is very important too.

Sorry you're going through this. I know what you mean about feeling like the person you thought you knew would never do these things, and therefore can still come back somehow. My situation is not as tough as yours but that specific part of your post definitely hits home. You love her and the life you thought you had built together and these things she has done are hard to even comprehend when you think of the idealized version of the wife you knew. Stay strong! You are doing the right thing.

You know you should read all the advise here as staying with her is a real risk and you could waste many more years for absolutely nothing but more hurt and misery.

Your just about 40 too. You still have plenty of time to meet someone new and have a real good relationship. The older women are smarter generally too. You have a better shot at happiness with someone new than with your wife.

That is just the reality.

You should really go back and read Chameleon Tea’s responses again. She really gave you good advise and gave you an accurate representation of what your life will be like going forward. Your life and your kids lives will revolve around her disfunction.

That is also the reality.

She did love you. Your relationship was real. She dropped her guard and let another man in. She fell in love with him. That’s what happened. There is no logic when you are in love.

Affairs are extra potent for women too. It’s a lot to explain but your wife had the most dangerous affair cocktail. Not only cheating on you but cheating with a married man.

Many women are attracted to married men. In a nutshell women get attracted through thinking, worrying and anxiety.

So,

1) when she was with you she was worrying about him and being caught which made her actually think more about him. That increased her attraction which made the sneaked time with him more intense. If she met him while they were both single the attraction would not be near as intense.

2) the fact that he is married also increased her attraction. His wife becomes a factor and adds to her worry. Not just being caught but a competition that she is better than her. It adds to the love story. If it wasn’t for our families we would have the most magical life together.

In both cases women get this fantasy that if they just swap out the husband and wife life will be so great. Never mind that’s resentful spouses, kids and lawyers will will divide assets and cost money will put a serious damper on the magical new life.

This is what is known as true "Affair Fog"

That’s why you cannot be nice when it comes to the legal matters. Don’t let her manipulate you into giving her a soft place to land. You will actually enable the fantasy.

Remember this, you cannot defeat feelings with logic.

Her brain still works. She knows she is terrible. She knows what she is doing is destructive. But that high of being in love is so intense. She can’t help herself.

In this world of infidelity if you read the literature from the non stupid modern experts they often use drug addiction as the metaphor for cheating.

Your wife is now an emotion junkie. That’s why she started with the dad at the ballgame. It sucks being at home right now with all the hurt and rules. She is looking for that hit of happy feelings.

Also she damaged her bond with you. In reality it’s easier for her as well to start fresh with someone new just like it is for you.

It’s going to take real work from her end to fix this. She could not do it the first time and it’s gonna be worse this time. Is she strong enough I doubt it.

There was a lot of betrayal for years. She has lied to you for years. That’s a lot to come back from.

It’s gonna be hard for you to come back from too. Make no mistake about that. You may not see it now.

The future for you two was so bright. You were in a better spot being young, knocking out raising your kids and being financially stable. You had a lot of good times that could have been better than most. Other couples would be envious of your life. I understand why that dream is so enticing that you would want to hold on to it.

But she ruined everything.

You want to hold on to that now and you don’t want to let that dream go but you need to realize that your feelings are going to change too. You will develop a lot of resentment toward her as time goes on.

You will. You may forgive but you will never forget.

To go back to the drug addict analogy. You are going to have to monitor her intensely. You were too lax the first time. She was in an intense relationship you were a little naïve to think you were not going to have to be the marriage police. Checking in every couple of months that is in the future.

That’s right you are going to have to spot check her forever. Any time she does something shady.

Is that what you really want?

But for now it’s not prison more like impatient drug treatment. You need to follow these strict rules but there is the door. Your free to leave.

Your kids and her family need to help as well. I’d let her stay with them if she can for a while so she can decide for her self if this marriage is what she really wants.

Also it is a good test to see if she is strong enough to handle this. If you find her cheating again she can’t come home.

I’d be careful with the "I’m going to support her no matter what" mentality. You would not be thinking that if she keeps cheating or actually forms a relationship with another man. You only think that because you desperately want to save the marriage.

That’s another reason she has not hit real rock bottom. You won’t let her. You keep saving her at the last minute.

I’m glad you are moving forward with filing. You need to protect your assents. Even if you do end up back together. Listen to your lawyer and make sure you are protected now and in the future. Even if it’s mean to her.

You have no choice. She cannot be trusted.

You can still be kind and loving to her. "I love you I want to save this marriage but I need to protect myself" "I love you but you have not shown that you love me at all and I don’t want to trap you here" "We both should move on if you don’t want this"

That need to be the overall vibe of your conversations.

I highly recommend the book "not just friends"

It has a concept of "walls and windows" that is really good.

She cannot bond with you correctly until all the secrets are truly out.

You need to give her one last chance to tell the truth.

Explain to her that she cannot truly love you unless she comes fully clean. It’s the two of you vs everyone else. She cannot have any secrets anymore. She cannot have any secrets between her and another man. She will never be able to bond with you while she does. She is not capable emotionally of bonding with you while she is still holding on to secrets with other men.

She needs to make a full written time line and she needs to email it to you so you can make adjustments (and give it to his wife).

Tell her this is it. It is the last chance. It will be investigated so it better be real.

All the lies. Everywhere it took place how many times, how she was feeling, why she wanted to leave you, all other men and anything that happened with them.

It will be easier for her to write it then tell you to your face.

If it is not a full accounting and you find out she is still lying then you need to leave and never look back.

It’s starts there.

It’s time to lay down the law so here are a few other rules going forward and she needs to willingly agree to them because you can’t live like this forever.

But for now,

Dam right she is going to tell the wife. Everything including trash he talked about her. That can be edits you make to her time line that you can give to her. He is the enemy and she better treat him like the enemy.

I would take her phone immediately when she gets out of the hospital and go get her a brand new one with a new phone number.

Then you can investigate her old one. Maybe see if you can find a professional to search it and restore any deleted things.

This may save you future heartache as you may find she is still lying to you. She better give it up.

This is the first thing you need to do.

Make sure it’s an I Phone. No android. Make sure it’s under your account not hers.

cheaters hate iPhones because you cannot hide what you download. There is a record.

You may find she is still lying and still talking to him.

She will never download social media. Of any kind. Watch the games too. many of them like words with friends and clash of clans have chat options.

Give her a laptop to use as well She better never delete her browsing history. Ever.

Also this rule is in place for ever. No Male Friends…… Ever again. There will be no more jokes (what bullshit) because she will never have any personnel chat of any kind between her and another man the rest of her life. She will never give a man her phone number or email ever again for any reason.

Being alone with a man is done weather that’s talking with a neighbor, co worker, or any man on any device for any reason. She has sex with her male friends so she can’t have them.

She better be accountable for where she is and who she is with at all times. Keep the ringer up real loud. I’d call with FaceTime from now on.

This is what needs to happen. Are you sure you want this? Without strict controls she is going to relapse.

You need to get into therapy as well.

Also If you are going to try I would suggest marriage counseling.

Find a Gottman trained counselor as they may tell you that you should get a divorce.

As long as you use the therapy not to save your marriage at all cost but use it to mediate discussions about "If you should save your marriage" it could help.

These are just my opinions if you are dead set on trying again. The other people on here are right in there assessment that a lot of damage has been done and you will probably be happier to move on.

I’m so sorry for what you are going through.

I wish you the best of luck.

congrats one way or another all of this will be over in a year. I do not expect your wife to change, so work on you and the kids.

Focus on your future.

You need to give her one last chance

No you dont.

her last contact with him was in the hospital

After all that went down, she still reached out to him...yesterday...in the hospital on suicide watch because of her affairs.

She lied to her children. She lied to you about why she restarted the affair. She lied to you about the bland recent sex and she certainly lied to you about what was said in the last phone call.

And if he calls her, she will answer and lie to you again.

Semper fi she will never be. Save yourself. Save your children. We know that you still love her, but you must divorce her or you will be back here in 6 months. This will be a hard hill but you must grind it out.

I am so sorry you are going through this. I wish I could give you a hug and show you what your life will one day be. But that will be up to you. I know a man whose wife is bi-polar, and she has cheated on him countless times. She is in and out of hospitals for her issues, and she also has a very good and loving heart. I've watched this happen for over 20 years now, and she will continue to do this to him for as long as she is able. It's very sad. I hope for better for you. Which means walking away from a losing proposition. Time is the one precious thing we can never get back, so be careful how you spend it.

If I may offer a reason that your wife did not hide the burner phone? You said she was on adderal in a pretty hard-core way. I happen to know that when on any sort of stimulant, your mind is not always as clear as it could be. It's very possible that she wasn't trying to get caught, but just sloppy.

Please don't let her talk you out of the divorce. Don't sign up for more years of hope, followed by devastating pain. You deserve better, and you will find it, but only once you've separated yourself from this lonely prison.

I am terribly sorry for the pain you and your family will suffer due to your wife's horrible and selfish choices, but I am excited for your bright new future. Do it for your future self, and for your childrens' future selves. They will see what courage and honor look like, and how to walk away when you're being not just disrespected, but not loved in the way you deserve. Model for them what you want for their future, even though it hurts so much right now. It does get better.

Wow that’s a lot. WP has a way to keep you at her side even though she knows what she has done. After all this you still want her to be okay because you’re a good person and don’t want to leave her at her worst right?

Glad you filed, good work. Only you can decide whether to offer R or not and the year will give you space to think if you separate from her as much as feasible. She has so much to overcome that the odds are against her, but sometimes people beat the odds.

When helping her recovery, please realize that you can support her as 1) the rugsweeping husband 2) the husband who is simultaneously addressing the infidelity seriously or 3) the separated husband whom is a part time advocate on her medical team but not a romantic partner. I admire your choice to help her but be careful which option you choose, the knight in shining armor factor may distort things if you are not wary.

As far as "did she want to get caught?" I think the addictive personality has moments of clarity where they hate themselves and what they are doing. Perhaps the phone being left out was part of a moment like that. If you interpret it like that then it may make you feel a bit better. But that matters little when thinking about the future. She kept returning to him and betraying you regardless.

You can choose D and still keep her steadfast support for you in your times of need as a loving memory and an honorable act. D does not have to mean hate or disdain. Of course her care for you at those moments could be a foundation for R if she finds the strength and help to turn her life around.