SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

She will feel the tiniest fraction of the pain when she receives the letter from your lawyer and understands that you are not her doormat that will accept her cheating, and realizes that you will be separating from her.

The more you take control of the situation the more she will feel. Her comfortable life where she can she can work as a hobby, lives in a nice home, and is respected are all going to go away as reality hits her. And if she is lucky, THEN she will begin to understand that this is all on her! AND THEN, she just may begin to understand the depth that she hurt you, your kids, your family and friends!

Good luck and stay strong.

Do what you must do to be able to look the man in the mirror in the eye every day

Rover

Just some random thoughts on your situation. Not in any particular order.

First though – Threads like yours tend to develop into what’s happening to your wife, and some semi-perverse glee in her misery…
I have made it clear that I think this can only end in one of two ways: You divorce, or you reconcile. If you divorce, your future happiness neither will and/or should be based on her misery. If you filing for d causes her pain, that pain is a consequence rather than the goal of filing. Focus on results to the end-goal rather than revenge or pain.
In an ideal world – IF you divorce – then 5 years from now you won’t be bothered at your son’s wedding/christening of a child/garden party if you are in the same room as your then-ex-wife and her new husband, irrespective of it its you alone or your new GF or wife. You aren’t divorcing to cause or maintain pain, but rather to end infidelity in a marriage you don’t believe in anymore.

If you reconcile… the pain she will go through will be the pain when she realizes how much she hurt you. We are big on remorse on this site, but I think a WS can’t really find true remorse until maybe the second year of reconciling. I think any remorse before that is mainly regret and self-pity, slowly being replaced with more factors based on self-blame.
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You mention she sent thousands of pictures…
Do you know what sort of pics? Anything revealing or sexual?
I’m not asking for some perverse kick. There are a couple of reasons this is relevant. For one it can give you a better understanding of the relationship. She seems to minimize the sexual aspect – like the three days, personal contact etc. I think that if you know she sent explicit images (like more than cleavage or a nippleslip shot, but maybe showing her nether-regions or in a sexual act) there could be a bigger sexual aspect to this affair.
Frankly – if she and OM did online sex then it’s HIGHLY unlikely OM balks at meeting her in person.

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Then there is the other issue… Something I suggest you tell your wife to address with her attorney. You have kids – albeit grown up ones… Their mom sent a man of questionable ethics explicit images. Your son does NOT want to come across his mom all spread out on amateurmomsdotcom or some comparable porn-site or forum. I urge you to suggest to your wife that she asks her attorney about this. The attorney can send a formal letter requesting OM delete all content and is made aware that they were intended for personal use and any distribution will lead to formal criminal charges.
Her reaction to this suggestion could tell you a lot. If she’s nonchalant about it or thinks this isn’t necessary then probably the images aren’t much beyond bikini-shots and curvy lines. If she pales up and rushes to the phone… you can imagine what content leads to that reaction.

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Then there is the eternal quest for the truth…
Have I mentioned how important it is? 😉

Look – at some point you have to tell yourself that you believe her or not.

I find the three days very questionable. But… she could be telling you the truth.
I have mentioned some factors you can ask her, and it’s totally your prerogative not to answer. But I suggest you ask her. Where did she stay? Same hotel you went to or different? If not the same place then why? What did she do over the day? Where did she eat? Whom did she meet? How can she corroborate her story?

I am not denying that your wife has possibly already told you the truth. That might be. But it’s more a question of if YOU believe you have the truth. Somehow I think you still have your questions.

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As part of any reconciliation or post-nup agreement… Make her focus on her career and income. If she could spend hours on the phone with OM and hours taking and sending pics… those are hours she can be doing training or Zumba or whatever she does in her health-gym. I would condition the personal loan and insist it be cleared with priority. This has a lot of benefits IMHO: it’s good for her self-esteem to be more financially successful, it improves your family’s income AND… if you eventually divorce 1-2 years down the road her claim to spousal support will be weaker.

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Finally…
If your wife was posting in the Waywards forum as a wife that had an affair and was caught – basically in the same shoes and situation as your wife – my advice would be along these lines (assuming she didn’t have a STOP! sign).
Tell the truth. Get everything out.
If she shared that she didn’t meet OM during those three days I would tell her to convince you with anything she could and whatever you wanted. I would ask her "Can’t you see how unbelievable it is for Rover that a divorced/single man that has already been willing to receive thousands of pics and texts would really not find time over a period of three days to meet up?" I would suggest she find the hotel-bill that would support that she was alone, the charges for dinner, the ticket-stub for the art-museum, the charge for the pedicure… whatever she could to give you a filled-out itinerary.
I would suggest she find a reliable polygraph-operator and offer to go. Or hypnosis.
I would suggest she open up her phone-logs or gets a copy from her provider. That could also be used to support her three-day theory… (there isn’t a need to phone OM if he’s beside her).

If she shared that her husband wanted a separation agreement that was heavily in his favor… Well… I would be telling her to stick to whatever her attorney says is her right. That being cohered into a contract in the hope it leads to reconciliation won’t help reconciliation at all. It’s a give-and-take process and if her husband has the upper hand he can control the process beyond what might be reasonable.

She received the letter today, via email. She also went to her lawyer and retained them. Not at all surprised, I would have done the same.

So that past couple of days we have talked a lot. She is adamant they never met up. I told her that i will need to know for sure, but she said she doesn't know how to prove it. She says she wants to work on the marriage. She also wants to know what is wrong with her and why she did this to me again. She told me how it all started, with the OM reaching out to her first. She said it got out of hand quickly and it felt "new and exciting". She said she did not send any inappropriate pictures, they were mostly memes. And all the texting was generic crap. She never thought about my or the family's feelings if she ever got caught, nor the consequences of getting caught.

So she did make a IC appt for Wednesday this week, so that is a step in the right direction. She also said she would do anything to prove she isnt out looking for another person...i can check her phone whenever i want, have all her passwords, etc. I told her that in 2 years, I don't want to be thinking that she lied to me, and it's basically now or never. She was open and answered all my questions without hesitation. She did ask me if I wanted to call and talk to OM.

Anyway, the past couple days of talking have been good, but that's the rollercoaster. I expect that she is going to be pissed when she gets home because of the attorney letter. It was strongly written as well, mentioning marital misconduct and the OM by name. She knows that this is serious, but I really think she assumes I will get over like I always do. Not this time. I am prepared to keep travelling the D path until I am 100% sure of R. She has a lot of work to do to get to R though.

Wish me luck tonight. I am done talking about us, the A, and everything with her. We have talked enough the past 2 days, and it's time to get back to the 180. Now it is all on her to do whatever she can to save this marriage, or take the opportunity and just cut and run. I will not lead her to any decisions...she needs to figure out this out on her own.

When she said I don’t know how to prove it did you say take a poly?

When she said I don’t know how to prove it did you say take a poly?

Yea, I did. I also know her answer was the complete opposite of what she should have said. She said no, it's too demeaning.

Doesn't prove she is lying, just proves she isn't remorseful yet.

but she said she doesn't know how to prove it.

She said no, it's too demeaning.

At least she knows what she is not willing to do to prove it...

I hope that everything is (or went) as well as could be expected tonight. I imagine that getting your lawyer’s letter is going to hit your wife like a ton of bricks.

Her suggestion that you contact OM is absurd, as if they hadn’t gotten their stories straight in advance or that you could expect honesty from a man who had an affair with your wife. Ridiculous.

If she’s determined to prove that she’s being honest, she has options. She can download a program on to her phone (or take it to a specialist) to recover the deleted text messages, emails, and photos. If they didn’t meet and only sent each other benign messages and memes, then this will corroborate her story.

She can also do a polygraph. The benefit to you of a polygraph (as with law enforcement) is that they are useful interrogation techniques. The fear of taking one and the anxiety one feels in the process of taking a polygraph, can be enough to get her to fess up the truth.

You should make it clear, however, that the above actions necessary only for you to even CONSIDER reconciliation as a possibility.

Most importantly, going back to the status quo is not a possibility. You either get a new marriage or you divorce.

Bigger has some solid advice. If you ultimately choose D, it will and it must be about you. Ultimately, you should work towards a feeling of indifference.

After 5ish years,I'm almost there and it feels good not to care. My EXWW tried to tell me her troubles, but I think she can sense I just don't give a shit. So she stops talking.

Finding the poly too demeaning is a concern, but only if you want to R. If not, then feel free to not give a shit. Birds gotta fly, cheaters gotta lie...

Y'all make some great points, and appreciate all of them.

It actually wasn't bad tonight at all. She made dinner, we ate and talked about anything but us, and she went upstairs. She didn't bring up the letter or her retaining an attorney at all.

Yea, her response to the poly was not good. I am assuming that since it's only been 3 weeks, she would rather continue with separation than say yes to a poly. We'll see if that changes as shit starts to sink in.

And I want y'all to know that I do not find happiness in her unhappiness. I am doing the exact opposite by taking the high road whenever possible. I am trying to get my kids to speak to my WW again because I see how much it is killing her. It's especially hard around the holidays. I'm eating her dinners, saying thank you for cooking, cleaning up after.

She and I both agree that something in her isn't working right. It's not up to me to fix it, it's all up to her. But as bigger states, no matter what path we travel, she will always be the mother of my children and I will have to interact her for the rest of my life. Also, I am making a point to be strong in front of my kids. Although they are adults, they will learn from how I handle this situation. And seeing me find joy in my WW's misery is not a lesson I want them to learn.

The 180 is solely for me. Yes, it is having an effect on my WW, but I can feel myself getting stronger and able to handle situations better than I would have. And of course I have y'all here, and she doesn't.

You’re doing great! The poly answer to me is telling. If she wants R she’ll take the poly. It’s either one of these two things. 1. It’s too demeaning so that’s a higher order than R. 2. She’s lying.

My gut says it’s #2

So again. Sorry if I missed this. You found an ex wife. But did you find out if he has a current wife or girlfriend?

One tool people have used to find out where their spouse has being is their google location services. You could look at your wife’s if you have her google password (which she should have given you access to everything if she interested In Reconciliation). You can see if she went to his house during the 3 days before the wedding.

Or if there is an other betrayed spouse (OBS) and you contact her and reveal what he has done and perhaps she’d be willing to get his google locations and see if he went to your wife’s hotel.

Just a thought.

Her refusal to do a poly is concerning.

If the text messages support her current version of events (no sexual pictures aside, who sends that many memes?) regarding no physical contact it might be that this isn’t her first rodeo.

It’s possible she’s largely telling the truth about this and trying to avoid exposing something else by avoiding the poly. The poly seems like an odd hill to die on. Is a poly more demeaning than her affair being entered into the public record? More demeaning than everyone knowing she travelled to see a guy who didn’t even wanna meet up?

If she were desperate to do anything that she could to prove that she was telling the truth, she would take the poly.

She’s hiding something, whether it’s her activities with this guy or someone else.

IIRC, she was treating your daughter horribly..at least until she spoke to her attorney, and suddenly had this big change of feelings.

You need to stop telling them to make nice with her. Its unfair to them. And it shows little respect for their feelings.

They have been betrayed. Their mother risked their family,cheated on their father,and was verbally and emotionally abusive towards the daughter still at home. They have every right to be very upset.

Your kids are adults. They're allowed to feel what they feel,for as long as they need to.

It is not your job to repair those relationships. That falls all on your wife. And just like her relationship with you,it will take time,and a lot of effort,and remorse from their mother.

Put it this way..if your youngest had a boyfriend who was emotionally and verbally abusive towards her, would you be encouraging her to forgive and forget? I doubt it. The fact that the abuse came from her mother makes zero difference. Parents don't get a pass because they're parents.

Your daughter, who lives in the house needs to be respectful towards her mother. Polite. Follow any rules. Beyond that..stop telling her to make nice with your wife. It's incredibly unfair to your child.

If she were desperate to do anything that she could to prove that she was telling the truth, she would take the poly.

She is not desperate. That's the point. She has never been desperate in her life. Even by by saying she won't take a poly, it doesn't mean that she is lying. It means she won't do anything to reconcile. She is a very proud woman, and never once in our 27 years of knowing each other have I seen her really break down and cry. She tears up, yes, but that's it. She will never grovel, not for anything. Even if her life depended on it.

So that is what I am dealing with here. Maybe IC will help, maybe not. But my WW is not a typical suburban soccer mom, she has a rough edge to her. That's why I married her.

You need to stop telling them to make nice with her. Its unfair to them. And it shows little respect for their feelings.

I am not telling them they need to make nice with her, or even forgive her. I am 100% supportive of any stance they take with their mother. What I will not do is use my children as my therapists and tell them everything that is happening. They can make up their own minds about their mother.

Maybe my wording in previous posts led tot he assumption that I was pushing my kids to make nice. Not at all. The WW has STILL not tried to have a serious conversation with my DD and offer a full on, remorseful apology.

Sorry to keep harping on this but I think it’s important. If you have her google/gmail ID you can log in to Google Location Services and see where she was those 3 days in her hometown.

Look up Google Maps timeline using her google ID and see what you can see for those days. Maybe she has it turned off, but it is worth a shot.

And if you ever find his real BW maybe you can get her to do the same for his locations in that timeframe.

Many people use "pride" as something to hide behind. You can be proud of certain achievements but using it as you were above certain thinks is just bothersome, just as she wouldn't do a poly because of her pride. You have to stop taking the highroad, you don't have to be an a.hole but stop being accommodating. It's always a power play and if you're being "nice" in situations where there is no reason to it people will take advantage of it.

She is not desperate. That's the point. She has never been desperate in her life. Even by by saying she won't take a poly, it doesn't mean that she is lying. It means she won't do anything to reconcile. She is a very proud woman, and never once in our 27 years of knowing each other have I seen her really break down and cry. She tears up, yes, but that's it. She will never grovel, not for anything. Even if her life depended on it.

Well then maybe you should be too proud to stay with a woman who you can't trust and isn't willing to do something rather simple that would ease your piece of mind.

You loved your wife's "rough edge" when you married her, but that rough edge is going to pulverize what's left of your marriage if your doesn't acquire humility and compassion in the very near future.

Humility is a quality that your wife will need to acquire if you have any hope of reconciling. This means that she needs to be willing to put your needs first and her ego second. That means that she sees what she's broken and tries to fix it. It means that instead of throwing up her hands and saying "I wish I could prove that I was telling the truth!" she proactively figures out ways to validate her story. It is a difficult task, but it's not impossible.

A poly is just one option. Another option, as I've suggested before, is that she can recover the messages that she deleted. Yet another option, as Stevesn suggested, is providing you with her GPS/Google Maps/Apple Maps history.

As for what you can hope to get from IC, it can be very beneficial for a wayward's healing process, but you can't expect her to emerge from it a completely different person, no matter how experienced and skilled the therapist is. Also, nothing constructive will come out of your wife's sessions if she lies to her counselor or misrepresents you, your marriage, or your current predicament in any way. ICs also vary considerably in terms of their skill level and how well they handle issues of infidelity. A crappy IC, or an IC who is being fed bullshit by your wife, could end up reinforcing her bad behavior instead of helping her.

Your wife needs to understand that the status quo-- as it pertains to every aspect of your marriage, not just fidelity-- is no longer acceptable. Keep moving forward with the D and applying pressure. Either she'll realize this and step up or the marriage will end. Either way, you're out of infidelity.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:59 PM, Tuesday, November 22nd]

Hey Rover,

I'm new to your thread and read the whole thing. I think you've gotten a lot of very good advice and have done a great job on staying strong and keeping the course on D.

There are three (plus one) big things almost all WS's do post DDay. Continue to minimize, blameshift, and rugsweep. The "plus one" your wife has done a little of, and my wife did a lot, which is catastrophize. Basically "I'm horrible, nothing I do is or will be good enough, so why even try?"

I'm going to be a little biased in my advice here, but I do see a pattern similar to my own (but without the caving like a little bitch like I did). You strike me as very calm and collected in this whole ordeal. I was calm and collected too. The one issue with that, is that my wife did not see that I was angry and in pain. I told her I was, just like you have told yours. But just hearing "I'm angry and in pain" doesn't usually get the message across. I would also allow use to have "normal dinners" and such which contributes to a sense of "blowing hot and cold" or sending mixed signals. Which I effectively did for a year. You are at least being very consistent on your early D path so far. I consulted with an attorney but never sent a letter.

Here are a few quotes of your posts I'd like to speak to.

I am being patient with the situation, but I will stay angry and strong.

Internal anger and pain will not be something she understands. I do recommend actually getting visibly angry and upset. That might not be in your nature. It wasn't in mine.

Not sure how long it takes for remorse, or reality, to kick in for the WS, but I plan to keep doing what I'm doing until I see it or she is out.

A WS does need some coaxing on the behalf of the BS. It would be nice if they would "just get it" but they can't and won't. The books "Not Just Friends" and "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" are required reading if she wants to develop the skills to rebuild the M.

She came into my room and said "I am really sorry for the pain that I have caused you and the pain I have caused this family. " I said "ok" and she left. WTF am I supposed to do with that??

Tell her to read the books and at least try to make some amends then.

She said she is heartbroken for what she did to this family, but she won't grovel for what she did.

This is minimization. Plus, her pride and selfishness is getting in the way of her healing. I'm going to hit on this topic a little further down.

She wants to R, but neither of us are really sure if we have the energy for it. She DID apologize the right way, said what she did was wrong and she never should have done it. However, she is still using the the fact that "we don't like to do the same things" that pushed her to it. She said she never met up with OM and it was an online only emotional affair.

R is extremely wearying. You will feel worn to the bone emotionally, for months or years. You do need to find time to "recharge" emotionally through R.

Let me preface this bit in saying marital problems are never to blame for the affair. They may exist and be valid, but they don't justify an affair in any way. Shut down any of that blameshifting bullshit. In terms of "not liking the same things" this is seriously barely an issue. Most people don't like the same things. It's healthy to have hobbies you don't share. That said, you almost certainly do have some shared interests and likes. There is a reason dinner and a movie is such a popular date night.

I need her to understand the pain that she caused.

We both agreed that we lack communication in our marriage, and it hasn't been great. What she was saying, was that she wants someone to do things with her and enjoy doing it, but the marriage was comfortable and not the problem.

You have to show her your pain. Not tell her about it. Marital communication problems may be valid, but they had nothing to do with the affair.

Now she does have a point about us not doing things together. It's not just my fault, though. She is just as much or more to blame. I told her that is the stuff we could have discussed together, or with a MC, but instead she wandered. She accepted that was a mistake and apologized.

All marital problems are triaged to be addressed after the A. The word "mistake" is minimization and should not be tolerated.

Basically she called herself out as being a horrible person. She has hit rock bottom. She has put the blame on all herself, and told me she has thought about suicide every day since I found out.

This is where she catastrophized. The blame IS all on her. She did do a horrible thing. BUT if she wants to show she is not a horrible person, she must attempt to repair the damage she has done.

When I look at the text messages and the patterns, it makes sense. She said he was the one who didn't want to meet. They had planned to have a drinks. He bailed and said he couldn't make it. From the text patterns, she was not happy. Also, she said he was fine as soon as I called his wife. She was not aware it was his EX wife. So y'all were right, he bailed right away.

I asked straight up if I need to get tested for stds. She said no. I also asked if she was going to sleep with this guy, she said no, but that I'm not sure I believe.

So typical.... she got played by this dude. Also found out he is a total loser... won't get into details why because there may be some recovering drug addicts that live in a trailer on here. I don't want to insult anyone.

She did not get played. Sure he lied to her, as all cheaters lie basically all the time. She probably also lied to him to some degree. She wanted this to happen, as you pointed out. Do not damsel in distress her on this. Do not allow her to say "AP took advantage of me". She wanted to fuck AP, and tried to make it happen. My wife did the same and failed because he was the most stand up AP of all time. Later confirmed in various ways. These texts do seem consistent with her story.

I eventually confirmed my wife's story to my satisfaction by eavesdropping a drunk conversation she had with a close friend. I do think a timeline and poly to confirm is the better route.

He said he tells everyone to do anything they can to save the marriage because D is the worst experience in your life. I told him thanks for being honest, and I wont call again.

My friend was going through a D with a manipulative woman, and it made me greatly reconsider the cost of D. That is part of why I chose R.

I am trying to get my WW to really understand the pain she caused not just to me, but the family. But me too. I don't think it's possible for the wayward to ever get it.

I think it is. AND without the catastrophizing. It also requires consistent messaging on your part.

Now it is all on her to do whatever she can to save this marriage, or take the opportunity and just cut and run.

She will put in the absolute minimum that will cause delay and foot-dragging, that's what WS's do if not forced to put in a little more effort. You have been pretty consistent on D. Maybe she will suddenly wake up. I don't know.

Yea, her response to the poly was not good. I am assuming that since it's only been 3 weeks, she would rather continue with separation than say yes to a poly. We'll see if that changes as shit starts to sink in.

I agree it's demeaning. I agree that if you have to hook your wife to a machine to have her confirm her story to you, it proves that she has done something terrible. But she needs to be willing to demean herself (drop her pride), and crawl over broken glass if she wants a chance at this. Anything less is just going to be dragging it out and torturing you. I don't know if she is cut out for that or not.

I do think you are following a solid path toward D given the circumstances. I don't think you should be the fixer, but I do think if you could at least point her to the books as a starting point so she can "do more research on her own" that will be a good place to start.